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On May 05 2011 00:39 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
gotta say the idra / day9 discussion was one of the few times i HEAVILY disagree with day9.
i get his point of a balanced meta game but that has nothing to do with what we call balance. fact is we have a game that has flaws and is quite far away from the balance level of broodwar.
idra always goes abit overboard and makes too bolt statements but in the core he usually has very valid points.
but overall a very interesting part of this episode to listen to ~
I agree here, this was one of the first times I found day9 to be simply unreasonable and not looking at the situation correctly. Idra makes some amazing points (in his usual way though) and I think he has the game knowledge to back it up as well.
I like how Idra goes on record asking everyone for any solution to the problems he spells out, as he's spent thousands of hours trying to figure it out and been unable to come up with anything that works. I'd love for anyone who criticizes zerg balance discussions to come forward with something to answer those concerns he brought forward.
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Interesting SOTG, but as much as I love day9, I'm getting very tired of his refusal to seriously discuss balance or his inability to counter IdrA's balance arguments in a constructive way.
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Debate day at state of the game!
I feel sorry for Tyler cuz Geoff is a really good debater and Tyler couldnt really keep up with his arguments. Tyler had a small point but kinda was drawn away from the core reasoning about it.
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wouldnt zerg be unstoppable race in environment of perfect scouting, i mean nothing can match with power droning of zerg +larva inject when u have whole information whats your opponent doing.
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Sucky SOTG.
The balance issue and the TL vs EG tournament setting was boring as hell. Tyler was really bad :<
Hope next SOTG will return to it's roots.
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On the so called Day9 vs IdrA debate.
It is obvious for people to side with IdrA because of the way his argument went (asking rapid fire questions that Sean couldn't really answer).
You need to remember though that IdrA has been talking imbalance since the release of the game 1yr ago and has debated it many times and knows everything he wants to say. Sean on the other hand was caught in a spot where no one was really responding to Greg so he did (somewhat reluctantly i felt)
Day9's approach to the conversation was more practical to zergs actually finding out new strats, instead of constantly talking about it (let Blizzard do the talking dudes)
Thats what I thought anyway, i see alot of people using things out of contex
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JP (or someone) needs to moderate SoTG debates. These conflicts can be so boring and no one wants to listen to them. This EG vs. TL press release debate is worthless.
I love Geoff's POV and Tyler's POV on most things, but this debate rapidly descended into nonsense that had nothing to do with SC2.
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SotG is really great but I wish I would get this half-hour of balance talk back. Idra is a smart guy and he adds good thoughts in general but as soon as it gets to balance (which he forces anyway) I have a hard time thinking of anything more useless then "discussing" balance with him or listening to it. I hope the rare SotG time isn't wasted like that anymore.
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On May 05 2011 00:52 dementrio wrote:
one thing I wonder is, how hard would it be to set up a low-latency vpn between eu/na and kr, and rent it or make it available to everyone that needs to play cross-server for tournaments? if fxo can get good connectivity in some random place in the middle of nowhere just so that they can be cool and live in the jungle, why can't somebody get up a decent link from tech-country korea?
I think Blizzard needs to allow LAN for VPN to be viable in SC2, which probably will never happen until maybe 2 years after the final expansion.
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After reading that topic i believe that you are misunderstanding it. Colbi has over 400 posts, incontrol over 30k, and idra over 10k. I think that they have contributed to the community, well idra mostly trollin but thats ok too. Colbi, as a part of EG, has probably helped in several tournaments that have boosted E-sports to another level.
Upon reading this topic you linked i happened to check out DreamHack's topic for their summer tournament. Well according to that topic, DreamHack is completely violating that rule of advertisement. The account that makes Dreamhack threads is named "DreamHack" even with a special symbol by its name. The account also has 3 posts, 2 of which have been used as advertisement for their tournament.
Theres probably more red tape behind DreamHack's account than i'm aware, as i would think the special DM symbol was put in place by TeamLiquid. I'm not bashing DreamHack in anyway. I think its a great tournament, it furthers e-sports and should be supported on this forum. I'm just pointing out the fact that sometimes there are exceptions to rules. And to the the original poster of the the quote, your completely misunderstanding the situation I believe.
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1) just because idra is overdoing with imbalanced statementssince years doesnt mean he is wrong all the time
2) just because day9 didnt have an answer at that time,live in the interwebz doesnt mean he is wrong.
thats why you need to discuss the actual problem and not day9 or idra.
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On May 05 2011 00:51 Bobster wrote:
Amazing SotG.
Machine was super well-spoken and had some interesting things to say, would love to see him on the show more often.
Tasteless popping up was amazing as well.
Day9's mathematically trained mind shining through for balance discussion, it was clear that he didn't want to offend Idra (because we need to play more and explore the races more before we could think about adressing the imbalances that are there at the most basic level according to Idra) and so stayed non-committal in his answers, which didn't make him look too good.
Then the Tyler Incontrol bit where I have to side 100% with Incontrol (and Idra). I couldn't understand Tyler's slightly weird viewpoint and arguments at all. But it's not a biggie.
Fantastic, fantastic show. Great job all involved.
Shouldn't it actually be easier to address imbalances that are apparent at the most basic level of each race, because the most basic level of a race is something that can be witnessed in nearly every single game compared to imbalances within certain scenarios of later gameplay?
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Dunno what all the fuss is about. The Idra vs Day9 debate was awesome.
Tyler vs Geoff not so much cause no one really cares about the subject.
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On May 05 2011 00:57 ridonkulous wrote:
wouldnt zerg be unstoppable race in environment of perfect scouting, i mean nothing can match with power droning of zerg +larva inject when u have whole information whats your opponent doing.
I don't think he's asking for perfect scouting. Zerg have pretty good scouting mid to late game. But early game Terran and Protoss in my opinion do have the big advantage of much easier scouting and stopping Zerg from scouting early.
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On May 04 2011 22:20 MrCon wrote:
Wow, that discussion between Tyler and Geof/Idra about the EGMasterCup was quite shocking. I'm not sure if Geof was missing the point voluntarily or not. The point is Liquid has a high ethic standard. When other teams comes to promote their product on Liquid, either they adopt themselves that high ethic standard or they just don't come to Liquid.
In the current situation, I'm not far to think that if EG was in liquid situation of having a site in quasi monopoly on starcraft market, the "growth of esport" argument that Geof loved using during their debate would be much, much worse. Because they would try to benefit a lot, lot more financially and would just let sponsors or anyone with a big enough check say whatever bullshit they want on their site. And most likely would prevent competition of existing on their site.
Tyler wasn't saying "You come on liquid so don't say anything bad about liquid", he was saying you come on liquid so don't spew PR bullshit because our forum tries to stay protected of that. And Liquid is what it is because of this. I'm sad Tyler didn't find the words to express how that speech from Geof was just off topic. If Tyler and Liquid were like Geof described with his "dangerous way of thinking", they would just remove the EG thread and not put the tourney on the calendar. It would have 500 viewers, and then Geof could talk about "dangerous way of thinking".
I think you missed the point, MrCon. You need to read the actual EG Master's Cup thread. EG and Colbi DID hold themselves to a high ethical standard, and responded with a neutral, diplomatic and non-partisan response. It was the Team Liquid players that escalated the matter and made it combative, to the point that the admins had to simmer it down.
I think everyone on the show would agree that there shouldn't be any 'PR bullshit' on the site and as much transparency as possible. But if your going to demonize every person that sells them self, or withholds information to protect their image as well as the image of others, well, you're going to have a problem with 99% of society.
Geoff is exactly right, it is a "dangerous way of thinking", and a slippery slope.
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idrA wasn't even really discussing "imbalance" persay. He was saying that even if the game is balanced right now, it's not good, because a coin flip is balanced but no one wants to watch a fancy coin flip (game of starcraft II). The game needs to be balanced, but more importantly it needs to reward the better player, not whoever the luck falls on.
There is just no way for a zerg to effectively have a good chance of scouting what the opponent (protoss or terran) is doing, if the opponent is competent at denying overlords (read: every pro). This was also the case in BW, BUT in BW the opponent didn't have a crazy amount of possible openings and aggressive abilities (MULE and Chrono allow this, along with warpgate, of course <-- probably most broken part of the game). There are just so many things the opponent can do you can only be prepared for a few of them and from there it's a coin-flip if they are doing a build you have no way of scouting and cannot respond to.
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On May 04 2011 23:03 dementrio wrote:this was the worst sotg episode so far  people being so aggressive and unfriendly to each other kinda kills the show imo.
I agree it was one of the worst shows (dont know if it was the worst, since my memory is just bad^^).
Imho the EG/TL debate had no place there. The whole situation itself is blown way out of propotions and I dont remember a similiar thing discussed on sotg. And there were similiar incidents to discuss like ONE denying IdrA to play in that teamleague, because he registered too late, or TLO's withdrawal from EPS and that EPS published the explanation prior to the agreed date. Btw - that's the solution to the whole fucking discussion: EG & TL talk to each other and release a statement together.
JP mentioned he thought the discussion had to be done (after the chat was flooded with 'stop them') but I honestly believe it was the wrong place.
About the balance discussion: Circle circle circle - Idra's stubborness - with a dash of polemic ("What was the weakest race in BW?" aka trying to discredit the arguer not the argument) and a bit of irrelevant theory ("In the end every system will reach a balanced state" - and TicTacToe is no good example with it's limited searchspace for every possible strategy)
Edit: Maybe try to stay closer on the actual changes and try to prevent that every patch discussion decends in a overall balance discussion. Keep seperate segments for those things ("State of Zerg").
I liked Tastless's appearance though. But JP needs to reconsider the number of guests. More is not neccessarily better. I mean Machine who basically was just sitting there (and maybe was wasting his own time, since he didnt want to be rude and leave early). I'd like to see him as a guest on a future show - but those "Oh why dont you come on" things are meh.
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This last ep really suprised me, Idra totally shit over everything Day[9] said, and was correct in doing so. Day[9] was totally speachless towards the end lol ..
Incontrol totally shit over everything Tyler said, and was correct in doing so. Literally everything Tyler said in the EG vs. TL debate made no sence, and he just kept on repeating so much shit until JP wrapped it up. Urgh
Vampire Tasteless <3
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EPT
