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I grabbed the begining of the argument from
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=218351
Colbi's PR wasn't the best.
His first short response was appropriately short, but slightly and unfortunately misleading.
It seems there was some argument behind the scenes and Tyler, who wasn't happy, made a remark that pushed the issue a bit. It wasn't kind and wasn't proper.
Instead of making a proper annoucement or a level explanation of the reasons, Colbi went ahead with the debate which was totally inappropriate. He spilled the beans and phrased it as if TL was being troublesome.
Colbi Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 10:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Hide nested quote - On May 02 2011 10:11 KiNGxXx wrote:
No Liquid?
But the tournament sounds good! Liquid showed interest, but EG chose not to accommodate us. Ah, perspective! Despite every European team agreeing to the ruleset without any concern, Team Liquid requested we make a rule that forced teams to alternate between servers from game to game for NA/EU and NA/KR matches. Since no European team issued this concern other than Team Liquid, we did not feel it appropriate to impose the rule on everyone which would just further complicate scheduling and broadcasting. Additionally, it should be noted that our ruleset did and does allow teams to play on either BattleNet region if both teams agree upon it.
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Between Incontrol and Tyler I must say I agree with Incontrol 100%, Colbi said nothing offensive or wrong. Someone asked why Liquid wasn't in the tourny and he just said fact, he didn't say EGs side of the story nor did he say Liquids side. I think it's up to Liquid to explain why they didn't accept, if Colbi had said anymore info I think that would have been offensive to Liquid.
And what Tyler said about ppl should post whatever they feel, if that was the case all of TL would be a flamewar.
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That was the best State of the game ive ever seen.
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On May 04 2011 23:46 pyro19 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 23:41 -Archangel- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:33 Yaotzin wrote:
Tyler/Inc say the same stuff as Day and they're also pros. They said the same stuff back when Protoss sucked hard too. Actually Tyler back up Idra and so did Tastosis. Personally I think Day9 has too many fanboys that take him too seriously. He is a great caster and a good entertainer but as far as being a player and understanding the game he is not as good as his fanboys think. He has a very Deep understanding , However like Incontrol said , He isn"t in touch with the Pro scene right now as much as he was in broodwar.
Maybe when compared to standard players (the same ones that watch his show), but he has no clue what he is saying when compared with any pros. Even Artosis who is considered the best western sc2 analyst has been wrong on multiple occasions.
Anyways, Idra being Idra whined a lot but when he said Zerg must be able to either scout early or be able to defend anything was spot on.
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Firstly, you don't know that Zerg can do neither of those things. The game is not figured out.
Secondly, I don't think a safe build (that is, a build safe against every allin), should not leave you behind. It most certainly should leave you behind. That's the price you pay for safety.
Did I say that Zerg couldn't do either of those? No, read the post man, I'm just restating what Idra said and pointing out if you want to attack his point you do it on those like you are doing, not on vague definitions of what balance means.
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On May 05 2011 00:33 ellirc wrote:
People should take the balance bullshit elsewhere. This was the best SOTG I have seen, Tasteless coming on was awesome. KEEP DOING THIS JP! You should get a subscription thing like Day9 has done.
I agree. They should take it to a thread that is about the state of the game or something similar. Such bullshit.
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I have to say that I disagree strongly with all the people suggesting that EG should bend over backwards to accommodate the TL players in Korea.
While I can empathise with them wanting a 'fairer' playing field I think it's fair to point out that an invitation is not a binding contract to play under rules, it's a polite request to see whether you would be interested in participating or not, a simple refusal is not negative (which I think is where a lot of the issue people have had over this whole thing stems from). It's a 'no thank you' rather than a 'no, fuck you and the horse you rode in on'.
If the ruleset of the tournament is so terrible I think market forces (players) will eventually reflect that by not attending. It's not like there is a lack of tournaments to participate in.
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On May 05 2011 00:02 Uhnno wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2011 23:59 -_- wrote:
Just listened to SoTG. Heard the argument between Nony and Incontrol. Completely agree with Nony. Can't stand this ridiculous PR in SC2. I hope SC2 crashes so all this fucking suits get the fuck out Starcraft. Hate EG. Hate dumb sponsors. Hate stupid tournaments Hate dumb, bland posts. Hate coaching. Hate people trying to make money. Pathetic.
You actually being serious? If not, great attempt to troll.
Yes, I'm serious.
On May 05 2011 00:00 Mordiford wrote:
Yeah... Money is so dumb.
Why do people even try to make it? Fucking suits.
If you want money, listen to your dad and get a real job. SC2 players are so desperate to monetize their passion its pitiful. I really can't stand these scheming losers anymore. Do what you love and the money might follow, but if you chase money by selling out, you're a loser.
People monetizing their passion is smart. Not every job is necessary, they are producing product and customers are buying. Pros are capitalizing on both the competition and the money to be had. Its like saying pro sports is any better, or any job. Did I sell out working in my job of choice though I don't completely have a passion for?
I convinced someone that my job was worthwhile, Is it? I don't know, that's not my job to decide.
All kinds of people turn their passions into a living, its people that actively go out and try to convince others that say "hey, this is more than a passion, this can make money" and if it can, it will.
Sc2 is more than a passion now, and caring about the business aspect is very important to allow that passion to work for something more than itself. Otherwise known as food in someones stomach.
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gotta say the idra / day9 discussion was one of the few times i HEAVILY disagree with day9.
i get his point of a balanced meta game but that has nothing to do with what we call balance. fact is we have a game that has flaws and is quite far away from the balance level of broodwar.
idra always goes abit overboard and makes too bolt statements but in the core he usually has very valid points.
but overall a very interesting part of this episode to listen to ~
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On May 04 2011 23:40 DukeCanada wrote:
In regards to the argument between Incontrol and Tyler, I need to agree with Tyler. The that the EG rep posted was not "basic" or "simple". It was uninformative. Not telling the whole truth is the equivalent of lying. Especially if the message is misleading.
Im not saying Tyler reacted correctly, but the blame should be on the EG rep.
A quote came to mind when i read this.
Tell the truth, but tell it slant.
Its from Emily Dickinson i believe. Just kinda rang a bell reading your post. EG released there side in a professional way. TL's response should have been equally professional, instead Tyler chose to respond with a passive aggressive response (arguably). The reason i saw arguably is because i realize some people read it just thought Tyler being Tyler. But some people also read it as an unprofessional response to EG's statement.
I thought Tyler's response last night was a bit selfish in the way that he claimed his 5000 (i think?) posts were a contribution to the community, which they are. But the way he said it made it seem like his 5000 were better than other peoples. Incontrol brought this up too.
I personally don't mind Tyler, Jinro, and the other liquid members debating upon the rules and standards of play cross server in tournaments like EG's or NASL or any other tournament/league, but i do not agree with the manner in which it was conducted. Yes, it brought publicity to the thread for EG but i still think that liquid should have opened their own topic on the matter for discussion and not used EG's tournament thread.
Really being involved with the community, you knew this topic would be a big one tonight considering that IdrA, incontrol and Tyler were all prime members of that discussion. The discussion between Day9 and IdrA seemed a bit lack luster since everyone knows IdrA isn't going to change his point of view. Theres really no point in arguing about balance with him because you won't win, thats just his personality. You would think by now Day9 would understand this and just not even bother discussing balance on the show unless he wanted a good debate. Which he probably does realize this and thats why he started, because conflict = viewers.
Also IdrA = viewers.
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On May 05 2011 00:30 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 00:26 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:23 Duravi wrote:
1. In order to give the better player the best chance to win you either need to be able to scout effectively early in the game or if you are not able to do so be able to blind counter anything it is not possible to scout with a safe build that does not leave you behind until you have the ability to scout again.
2. Zerg cannot do either of those things.
If you want to debate Idra attack one of those; once you admit both are true you essentially have to agree with him. How Sean responded is unproductive. Firstly, you don't know that Zerg can do neither of those things. The game is not figured out. Secondly, I don't think a safe build (that is, a build safe against every allin), should not leave you behind. It most certainly should leave you behind. That's the price you pay for safety. Protoss and Terran can play safely up until the point that they can scout without falling behind economically against a zerg. It is not that difficult to nullify zerg aggression early game.
3gate sentry falls behind Zerg economically, and it's debateable if even that is 100% safe. I don't know ZvT that well so no comment on that.
Every safe build is supposed to have an economic cost. You aren't taking any risks so you shouldn't get any rewards. If everyone had a safe build at no economic cost then no one would ever open with anything else. That would be awfully boring.
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3gate sentry falls behind Zerg economically, and it's debateable if even that is 100% safe. I don't know ZvT that well so no comment on that.
Every safe build is supposed to have an economic cost. You aren't taking any risks so you shouldn't get any rewards. If everyone had a safe build at no economic cost then no one would ever open with anything else. That would be awfully boring.
You guys are still missing the point, the point wasn't about if what Idra said was right or wrong, it was that Sean should have challenged him on those things instead of going off on some pointless abstract discussion of talking about balance in a way nobody understands it to be.
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On May 05 2011 00:23 Duravi wrote:
Day9 for part of the discussion was talking about balance in a different way than we commonly understand it to be in SC2. When he was talking about reaching an equilibrium he was saying that nothing is imbalanced because ultimately people will figure out the better way to do things and then it just comes down to execution. To give an example someone alluded to earlier, he is saying something like, "If zerglings are ridiculously strong and make it impossible for the other races to win, every pro will switch to zerg, use a zergling focused strat, and whoever can execute that the best will win, so there is no imbalance."
This view is not productive at all. When we talk about balance in SC2 we are talking about the best player having the best chance to win REGARDLESS of their race. So it is in a sense combining balance with game design. Day 9 doesn't want to have that discussion. If you want to combat Idra you need to debate one of his initial assumptions, not what "balance" means in SC2.
Idra posited two things:
1. In order to give the better player the best chance to win you either need to be able to scout effectively early in the game or if you are not able to do so be able to blind counter anything it is not possible to scout with a safe build that does not leave you behind until you have the ability to scout again.
2. Zerg cannot do either of those things.
If you want to debate Idra attack one of those; once you admit both are true you essentially have to agree with him. How Sean responded is unproductive.
But that way of thinking was shown as correct in BW, which is where all these guys come from and also why Day9 wants to and can argue in favor of it.
Back in 06-07, when Savior was killing every zerg on the planet the matchup really seemed imbalanced until an unknown protoss went on to beat him 3-0 in the finals of a big tournament by showing a completely new forge fe into corsair/dt build.
Day9 is essentially looking at it from the perspective of a viewer, saying that builds will eventually get figured out. On the other hand, Idra is looking at it from the point of view of a player, who needs to win now instead of a year from now, which is why they will never agree on that point.
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On May 05 2011 00:22 Talin wrote:
If you're INVITING international teams and players, you should feel OBLIGATED as the organizer (to both players and the community) to do whatever it takes to make sure that ANY 2 players in your competition are on equal footing when they play their game. If you're not prepared to do this for whatever reason, then be fair and don't invite the players and teams you can't provide these conditions for.
Not really no. The goal of the competition is to provide the best games. One way to achieve this is having the best players.
However, lets say they invited DeMuslim. He wants to compete but his hand isn't 100%. In order to make it fair, he'd like to play one game with both hands and one where both players have to play with a soft cast on their right hands.
Obviously that's BS and no one would accept. It would give DeMuslim an advantage do to being used to the soft cast and reduce the quality of the games.
The Korean TL representatives want to force their opponents to play at least one game on the Korean server. In order to compete in non-Korean events, the Korean TL members must practice for the lag. By adding this restriction they are adding an additional requirement to every other team (or every NA team minimally) that takes away from that team's normal practice time. If TL is going to be involved with the non-Korean scene these players need to practice on non-Korean servers (which basically means NA). The three players have had to do so for TSL already for instance. There is essentially no pro level online Korean scene so the only reason the other players would be practicing on KR is for this match. Its an uneven burden on the non-TLers.
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But that way of thinking was shown as correct in BW, which is where all these guys come from and also why Day9 wants to and can argue in favor of it.
Back in 06-07, when Savior was killing every zerg on the planet the matchup really seemed imbalanced until an unknown protoss went on to beat him 3-0 in the finals of a big tournament by showing a completely new forge fe into corsair/dt build.
You aren't quite arguing the same thing as day9, you are saying it is balanced because it will eventually get figured out, he is saying even if it doesn't it is balanced because everyone will be forced to start doing it.
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this was absolutely the best State of the game so far, I was glued to the discussions going on.. props to all the hosts your insight and ability to articulate your views is astounding, keep up the good work.
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On May 05 2011 00:46 Louuster wrote:But that way of thinking was shown as correct in BW, which is where all these guys come from and also why Day9 wants to and can argue in favor of it.
Back in 06-07, when Savior was killing every zerg on the planet the matchup really seemed imbalanced until an unknown protoss went on to beat him 3-0 in the finals of a big tournament by showing a completely new forge fe into corsair/dt build.
And on the other hand most people would agree that WC3 had some serious balance issues that were never resolved by Blizzard or metagame evolution.
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Amazing SotG.
Machine was super well-spoken and had some interesting things to say, would love to see him on the show more often.
Tasteless popping up was amazing as well.
Day9's mathematically trained mind shining through for balance discussion, it was clear that he didn't want to offend Idra (because we need to play more and explore the races more before we could think about adressing the imbalances that are there at the most basic level according to Idra) and so stayed non-committal in his answers, which didn't make him look too good.
Then the Tyler Incontrol bit where I have to side 100% with Incontrol (and Idra). I couldn't understand Tyler's slightly weird viewpoint and arguments at all. But it's not a biggie.
Fantastic, fantastic show. Great job all involved.
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On May 05 2011 00:33 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 00:28 Scribble wrote:On May 05 2011 00:16 -_- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:02 Uhnno wrote:On May 04 2011 23:59 -_- wrote:
Just listened to SoTG. Heard the argument between Nony and Incontrol. Completely agree with Nony. Can't stand this ridiculous PR in SC2. I hope SC2 crashes so all this fucking suits get the fuck out Starcraft. Hate EG. Hate dumb sponsors. Hate stupid tournaments Hate dumb, bland posts. Hate coaching. Hate people trying to make money. Pathetic. You actually being serious? If not, great attempt to troll. Yes, I'm serious. On May 05 2011 00:00 Mordiford wrote:
Yeah... Money is so dumb.
Why do people even try to make it? Fucking suits. If you want money, listen to your dad and get a real job. SC2 players are so desperate to monetize their passion its pitiful. I really can't stand these scheming losers anymore. Do what you love and the money might follow, but if you chase money by selling out, you're a loser. People are losers for wanting to make a living doing what they love? Yeah, you're right. Jobs should be things that we hate. T If the only way you can make money is by ruining something you love so you can wring money out of it, you're a LOSER. Day9 isn't a loser. Tasteless isn't a loser. Nazgul isn't a loser. And they all make money by doing something they love. However, a whole lot of people who turned up when SC2 came out a consummate LOSERS. As Idra would say, it will be very satisfying watching them dissapear when Halo: Modern Warfare 4: Esports Edition comes out and takes the world by storm.
I would not say that people, that are now in fact investing in SC2 teams and players are losers, but some of these people do not care for the game in and of itself, but thats the same for every sport and every team that gets sponsored. And the argument that people, that came into the community are just going to leave as soon as the new hype hits, seems a bit on the hipster side of life to me  I myself was never that much into gaming but now with SC2 i am actively taking part in the SC2 community.
On May 05 2011 00:39 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
gotta say the idra / day9 discussion was one of the few times i HEAVILY disagree with day9.
i get his point of a balanced meta game but that has nothing to do with what we call balance. fact is we have a game that has flaws and is quite far away from the balance level of broodwar.
idra always goes abit overboard and makes too bolt statements but in the core he usually has very valid points.
but overall a very interesting part of this episode to listen to ~
I would say that Idra might be right in the points he made(i personally have no idea if the game is balanced or not and will not comment on it) but the inflexion of his voice makes it sound more like a rant. I think that was all that Day[9] was trying to say. As son as you get emotional you are no longer objective and if you are not objective ... your opinion is not really valid in a rational argument.
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one thing I wonder is, how hard would it be to set up a low-latency vpn between eu/na and kr, and rent it or make it available to everyone that needs to play cross-server for tournaments? if fxo can get good connectivity in some random place in the middle of nowhere just so that they can be cool and live in the jungle, why can't somebody get up a decent link from tech-country korea?
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EPT
