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Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 955
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:59 -_- wrote: Just listened to SoTG. Heard the argument between Nony and Incontrol. Completely agree with Nony. Can't stand this ridiculous PR in SC2. I hope SC2 crashes so all this fucking suits get the fuck out Starcraft. Hate EG. Hate dumb sponsors. Hate stupid tournaments Hate dumb, bland posts. Hate coaching. Hate people trying to make money. Pathetic. Yeah... Money is so dumb. Why do people even try to make it? Fucking suits. | ||
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Bensio
United Kingdom621 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:40 DoubleReed wrote: Actually I extremely disagree on this point. Idra has been winning more than ever, however his attitude has not changed. In fact, from his imbalance complaints he deduced that it's not worth trying to win straight up against a protoss anymore, and so he's been doing a lot more coinflips and cheesy all-in stuff and has been winning more. So the idea that idra's attitude does not help him be the best just seems false all around. That's a statement that just seems true. Perhaps because it is IdrA who knows himself that he is better than 99.9% of the players in NA lets say, understands that he cannot win in a standard macro game PvZ. Who are we to judge about his experiences within the life of Starcraft unless we ourselves have experienced what he has. He states extremely valid points, and he does not take it overboard, tonight on SotG he finally constructed what he has been saying for a long time, in a constructive discussion manner, and I applaud him, finally hopefully people will stop naming him a "whiner" just because they dont respect him as a player and as an e-sports figure... | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:40 DukeCanada wrote: In regards to the argument between Incontrol and Tyler, I need to agree with Tyler. The that the EG rep posted was not "basic" or "simple". It was uninformative. Not telling the whole truth is the equivalent of lying. Especially if the message is misleading. Im not saying Tyler reacted correctly, but the blame should be on the EG rep. Not telling whole truth is not the equivalent of lying. Was it uninformative? Sure. Was it misleading? No. Do you honestly think the reactions would be better if Colbi had stated what (EG) percieved as the truth? I very much doubt it as we saw in the following pages where team liquid members argued with EG members. Leaving it up to liquid to answer for themselves was the right thing to do from the beginning. How they (both sides) handled it after that is another matter. | ||
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Uhnno
Netherlands288 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:59 -_- wrote: Just listened to SoTG. Heard the argument between Nony and Incontrol. Completely agree with Nony. Can't stand this ridiculous PR in SC2. I hope SC2 crashes so all this fucking suits get the fuck out Starcraft. Hate EG. Hate dumb sponsors. Hate stupid tournaments Hate dumb, bland posts. Hate coaching. Hate people trying to make money. Pathetic. You actually being serious? If not, great attempt to troll. | ||
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starcraftDJ
United States42 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:54 Cathasaigh wrote: How does that make any sense? Some asked where TeamLiquid was and he said they were invited but chose not to play. That's all Colbi needed to say there, there's absolutely no reason to start up some big discussion especially since his only 2 other options were to either just explain EG's side and not mention TL's side which would be a completely dick move or to explain EG's side and then also speak for TL which I don't think is the right thing to do. Colbi said what he should say there and had TL responded after Colbi's comment with something along the lines of "We were invited but due to the logistical problem's involved with us having half of our team in Korea and us not being able to come to a compromise to fix some of those issues we chose not to participate" everything would have been fine. Instead Tyler posts his aggressive statements and starts a giant flame war. Tyler didn't handle it well at all. And while I agree with the overall point Tyler was trying to make on a theoretical level, the real world doesn't work that way. Especially the part about how Tyler likes Stride gum, and if any EG member posts they like Steelseries keyboards they'd be patently lying because of their sponsorship. What if EG members really do like Steelseries keyboards? We are getting into a mode of thought-policing here that can only end badly. The only thing Tyler needed to say "We didn't like the rules of EG's tournament, and chose not to play". TL could have made an announcement anyway they wanted. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Let's just analyze SC2 totally separately, because no strategy is out of reach because of mechanics, and Blizzard is taking a very different hands-on approach to balancing. It's pretty clear to see something like, Zerg having inferior scouting despite it being a supposedly reactive race. It's blatant. We don't need to wait years to see this. More subjectively it feels like they have a lot less options most of the time as well, throughout the game. Even if it wasn't a balance problem it's a bad thing that one race feels unfinished and limited in this way, and people could see this from the start of beta let alone now. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
I hope some players who haven't tried zerg to actually try and play for a while to see it from an actual players perspective and see why so many zerg players actually feel this game is unfavorable to their race. | ||
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Zuor
Finland377 Posts
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flanksteak
Canada246 Posts
Of course, implicit in all of Idras statements is that these features or aspects of the Zerg race are in fact imbalanced - something that Day either doesn't agree with or feels should be fleshed out first before having a real discussion. Day could very well agree with Idra, but it is still not a balance discussion; it's just something frustrating about the race. Example of things that should be discussed first: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219199 | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:45 ridonkulous wrote: hate to break it to you but protoss never "sucked". Almost every pro toss back then said in interviews its a good race despite of not winning many tournaments, because everytime they lost they could points mistake which could be fixed and made them lose the game Guess I should've said "sucked". Genius/Tester etc were threatening to switch races. Protoss didn't win squat. They were doing worse than Zerg are now. I agree they never sucked. I don't think Zerg does either. Toss just doesn't have someone who whines as much as Idra. | ||
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DukeCanada
Canada64 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:54 Cathasaigh wrote: How does that make any sense? Some asked where TeamLiquid was and he said they were invited but chose not to play. That's all Colbi needed to say there, there's absolutely no reason to start up some big discussion especially since his only 2 other options were to either just explain EG's side and not mention TL's side which would be a completely dick move or to explain EG's side and then also speak for TL which I don't think is the right thing to do. Colbi said what he should say there and had TL responded after Colbi's comment with something along the lines of "We were invited but due to the logistical problem's involved with us having half of our team in Korea and us not being able to come to a compromise to fix some of those issues we chose not to participate" everything would have been fine. Instead Tyler posts his aggressive statements and starts a giant flame war. No, thats wrong. The EG rep should have left no room for ambiguity. This isnt some EG fanboy talking about something he saw on the forum. This is an EG rep. Colbi needs to present the situation in a manner which benefits the EG Masters League the most. Clearly, his methodology did not work. The situation speaks for itself. If he did a good job this conversation would not be happening right now. Colbi should not need to depend on TL to explain their side. Thats just bad PR. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51117 Posts
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drcatellino
Canada346 Posts
The way he is speaking, he didn't lose a single game where it was not because of balance problems, which is a shame and I am sad to see so many people support the idea. There might be a few game design/balance problems in this game, and it's ok to discuss them, but day9 is right: you have to be backed by stats and specific problems you can point out in replays, not just some ultra-fast sentences that seem to express more your rage than a clear valid point. | ||
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MechKing
United States3004 Posts
On May 05 2011 00:07 DukeCanada wrote: No, thats wrong. The EG rep should have left no room for ambiguity. This isnt some EG fanboy talking about something he saw on the forum. This is an EG rep. Colbi needs to present the situation in a manner which benefits the EG Masters League the most. Clearly, his methodology did not work. The situation speaks for itself. If he did a good job this conversation would not be happening right now. Colbi should not need to depend on TL to explain their side. Thats just bad PR. Colbi isn't a spokesperson for liquid though. All he said was that EG invited Liquid and Liquid didn't accept. Is it up to Colbi to speak for Liquid, or is it up to someone actually connected to it? | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 05 2011 00:07 DukeCanada wrote: No, thats wrong. The EG rep should have left no room for ambiguity. This isnt some EG fanboy talking about something he saw on the forum. This is an EG rep. Colbi needs to present the situation in a manner which benefits the EG Masters League the most. Clearly, his methodology did not work. The situation speaks for itself. If he did a good job this conversation would not be happening right now. Colbi should not need to depend on TL to explain their side. Thats just bad PR. No, because depending on how he would stated the situation, there would always be potential for problems. If he had stated Team Liquids side, and not represented in a satisfactory manner in Tyler's opinion we'd still be having this discussion in a slightly different form. He gave the most basic information that he could give, "They were invited, they declined". There is NOTHING inaccurate here, people decline stuff all the time. Then it's up to people interested to ask, "Well, why did they decline?". In regards to the league, he answered appropriately, upon further questioning, he could very well have just said, "Ask them why, it's not our place to say". But instead, Tyler came out swinging so we got into this shit show. | ||
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PantsB
United States77 Posts
On May 04 2011 23:54 Malinor wrote: Make the Changeling an Overlord ability and let it crawl up/down cliffs. Internal 45sec-1min cooldown. Researchable in a hatchery for 50/50 after spawning pool finishes, takes as long as concussive shells. And needs some more HP. Then I don't have to listen to a 25 minute debate on zerg-scouting again, where one guy is just venting his frustration and the other guy tells him that this is useless. You're right, Idra would definitely concede balance at that point. <Incontrol extreme closeup looking into the camera> | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
Zerg was frequently cried as underpowered on iCCup and in these here ol' forums. Why? The Zerg mechanic meant that 150 apm players (such as myself) struggled to get above D, while we all knew 80 APM Protoss players around the C mark. Why? Accessing the annoyingly "OP" Protoss mechanics was way easier and Zerg's Muta response was stopped by the uneconomic and "bad" 2 cannons at every mineral line. It was incredibly frustrating because Zerg Overlords were even slower than SC2 Ovies, every race could wall off JUST as easy, they could Nexus first with even LESS concern. Idra made the point that the difference was the myriad strategies Terran/Protoss has makes it a coinlip. But there was no one zerg build that stopped SairReaver, the Zealot with leg speed, DTs variants,etc. You got to Lair and tried to get your Hydra Den and before you got stomped or you went Spire and tried to make that work. Now the timings worked out so Zerg has a wider window in which to be reactive, but that doesn't change the game design, it allows a larger fudge factor. So in similar principles, I would say, not that the scouting is an insurmountable problem, but that the 5-10s window to start Roach production is very unforgiving, as was the case in BW, and it took YEARS before Zergs could readily measure at the top level, let alone us peons. Modern BW Zerg is still evolving to handle this issue. Mech dominated forever and Queens are just finally widespread over a year after Mech began its reign. It's a frustrating game at times, but I think we need to give it a chance to evolve. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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