EPTThe game is not figured out... ?
Should we not try to open more doors before nerfing anything ?
So day's argument is not a tautology, since it does not apply for thors...
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 959
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
The game is not figured out... ? Should we not try to open more doors before nerfing anything ? So day's argument is not a tautology, since it does not apply for thors... | ||
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Dystisis
Norway713 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:10 Uhh Negative wrote: idrA wasn't even really discussing "imbalance" persay. He was saying that even if the game is balanced right now, it's not good, because a coin flip is balanced but no one wants to watch a fancy coin flip (game of starcraft II). The game needs to be balanced, but more importantly it needs to reward the better player, not whoever the luck falls on. I think many people can agree with this to some extent, even if they disagree that the game itself is imbalanced. I love Starcraft 2 but from a spectators point of view I do have certain reservations as well. However, to a large degree I am confident things will even out and skill will come more into play for all races as playstyles evolve and the game reaches a sort of "equilibrium". I am happy about the recent balance changes Blizz made and looking forward to the expansions to solify SC2 even further as a great competitive esport just like SC:BW, where skill truly matters. Honestly, I am having problems seeing how anyone can be pessimistic at the current moment. Players skill is certainly more important when considering the outcome of matches today than it was four months ago, and both with expansion changes and players developing safe ways to play I think only the sky is the limit for how awesome the game will be. | ||
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
Also sad to see Tyler fishing so much after Incontrol (and Idra to some extent) made very valid points about their discussion. I mean no offence but his stance is the opposite of what HotBid posted early in the thread they where talking about, and its sad to see he just couldn't fathom that he was wrong (at least I felt that). | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
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ridonkulous
159 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:11 Jonstah wrote: This last ep really suprised me, Idra totally shit over everything Day[9] said, and was correct in doing so. Day[9] was totally speachless towards the end lol .. yea shame that later tyler shit over idra's "imbalance" arguments leaving him speechless. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:12 WhiteDog wrote: I want all the protoss out there, tyler incontrol and day fan, to explain us why the Thor nerf is good ? The game is not figured out... ? Should we not try to open more doors before nerfing anything ? So day's argument is not a tautology, since it does not apply for thors... Irrespective of balance, Thor's 250mm ability should require energy, not a cooldown. This is superior game design, because it allows this ability to be counteracted. An ability which requires no real choice - that is, it is the only spell it has, and it is obvious what to use it on - and also cannot be counteracted (you can't dodge it or anything), leads to boring gameplay, and possibly balance problems. As for your general point, there is a vast difference between saying a race is overpowered/underpowered, and saying a specific strategy/unit is. | ||
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Darkzler
Sweden58 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:20 ridonkulous wrote: yea shame that later tyler shit over idra's "imbalance" arguments leaving him speechless. I'd say that Tyler wasn't making any sense with his counter to IdrAs arguments. | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:10 Uhh Negative wrote: idrA wasn't even really discussing "imbalance" persay. He was saying that even if the game is balanced right now, it's not good, because a coin flip is balanced but no one wants to watch a fancy coin flip (game of starcraft II). The game needs to be balanced, but more importantly it needs to reward the better player, not whoever the luck falls on. There is just no way for a zerg to effectively have a good chance of scouting what the opponent (protoss or terran) is doing, if the opponent is competent at denying overlords (read: every pro). This was also the case in BW, BUT in BW the opponent didn't have a crazy amount of possible openings and aggressive abilities (MULE and Chrono allow this, along with warpgate, of course <-- probably most broken part of the game). There are just so many things the opponent can do you can only be prepared for a few of them and from there it's a coin-flip if they are doing a build you have no way of scouting and cannot respond to. It would be helpful if people read more than the last two pages. We have already gone over many different ways that Zergs can scout over Protoss. For example, zerglings can scout a fast expansion fairly easily by running to the natural. An overlord can be sacrificed in a Protoss base to see a stargate, or to check the Nexus and the mineral line for a probe count, a count on the gas remaining, and to see how much energy there is on the Nexus (in relation to a 4 warpgate). Protoss scouting depends on the observer, which is somewhat more late game than a typical overlord. It should also be pointed out that Observers have a greater non-monetary cost than the Overlord. If an observer dies, then making a new one takes time away from other robo tech that needs to be built, while an overlord is made all the time, and doesn't interfere with Zerg tech path. Map control is also a pretty big deal when discussing scouting. With fast zerglings, a Zerg can have map control and scout what units are coming out of a Protoss or Terran base and make units accordingly. Idra made a point that you cannot make defensive units in time, but if you sacrifice a few of the weaker units to buy you time, it is possible to come out with whatever you need to defend yourself. As an example, Spanishiwa's build, which according to Idra is weak against econ builds (i.e. Fast Expand), dominated TLO in two macro games, at least one of which had TLO fast expanding. Here: + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbwG63KVQz4&feature=player_embedded At around the 5 minute mark, Spanishiwa has thrown down his third hatch having seen TLO fast expand. Hive tech is started at around 11:40 which means it should finish around 13:20 (the production tab wasn't out so I couldn't see). Either way, that is a super early hive and Spanishiwa dominates. It isn't a coin flip. Sometimes people take risks which do feel a bit like a coin flip, but saying blindly that every Zerg play is a coin flip is not just wrong, but harmful thinking. | ||
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vdale
Germany1173 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:26 Darkzler wrote: I'd say that Tyler wasn't making any sense with his counter to IdrAs arguments. I'd say that you are wrong. | ||
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Aristodemus
England2006 Posts
As for Idra, i think Geoff questioning him on who was the weakest race in BW was very appropriate. Its just in his mentality that he feels superior to his "foreign" rivals and that any loss is solely down to imbalance. I really wish he would change race to whatever he feels is the strongest (suggested terran on the show) and try to walk all over these "inferior" players. If i was a pro player and i felt handicapped by my race i would switch, sure it might take time to adapt but if the state of the game is half as bad as he makes out it would bear fruit. This just isnt the case though and i am getting very bored with his viewpoints being regurgitated by all his fans on every LR thread and other threads here. As for the final point being banded around in this thread that because protoss players are not whining they are clearly OP that is just fail logic. | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:12 WhiteDog wrote: I want all the protoss out there, tyler incontrol and day fan, to explain us why the Thor nerf is good ? The game is not figured out... ? Should we not try to open more doors before nerfing anything ? So day's argument is not a tautology, since it does not apply for thors... Tyler said that the Thor nerf just made it so he wouldn't have to figure out a way to beat it. He was thankful because it made things easier for him, not because it took away an imbalance. He mentioned that it was possible that the Thor was imbalanced, but it was too early to tell, so he was just happy not to have to deal with it. Day9 mentioned that the nerf allows wiggle room, and allows strategies to be born. In other words, ghost vs templar play where ghosts try to EMP first, while templar try to feedback both ghosts and Thors. Also, EMPing your own Thors is a possible tactic. Either way, it adds variety, and Day9 is a fan of variety. Balance was not discussed. | ||
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dark14cs
143 Posts
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zs3000
United States43 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:20 ridonkulous wrote: yea shame that later tyler shit over idra's "imbalance" arguments leaving him speechless. Yea, and Idra didn't do anything to Day9 if your unbias like day9. Idra WAS ranting, and day9 was like "Uh, you don't know everything about the game, there's shit you don't understand like everyone else" in a nice way, but Idra can't listen to anything like that, or be nice about his own thoughts. He says shit to further his own agenda (which has been true for almost a decade). Day9 was right, nothing Idra says is true set in stone, just because IDRA can't do it, doesn't mean someone can't, or that they haven't thought of a way. There are STILL new meta games coming in SC1 over a decade later, and Idra thinks he's magically figured everything out in a few years of Sc2. And tyler just said the same thing Day9 did, just with more an edge to it. "You play wrong, you let people get away with risks" to an extent. Idra has like an 80% win rate on the ladder, win IPL, but he can't be happy with that, because his brain is so messed up that he thinks he should win EVERYTHING, because he is the BEST. Well, he's not the best, he won't win everything, and even if Zerg was the most powerful race, I'd still be astounded at how much he's won because of his terribly closed mind and attitude. The sad part about it is all really, is that Idra can't see that the only faults in his play, and with his race, are his own doing, not blizzards. | ||
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zs3000
United States43 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:31 dark14cs wrote: That last SOTG made me lose respect for Sean. They should have Idra on every show and also a Terran representative. You lost respect for a guy that just showed everyone that Idra doesn't know what he's talking about? You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" You lost respect for Day9 because Idra thinks that and Day9 actually puts thought and foresight into his words? Your right, terrible guy. | ||
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Asshat
593 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
That being said, it's interesting to listen to discussion about imbalance on SotG. However, as I listen to this discussion, I'm increasingly interested in seeing a different show that is more dedicated to discussing imbalance with a round table of pros. Although Idra and Artosis had the Imbalance show, I think having the two most outspoken members of the community results in a bit too much bias from that discussion. Perhaps a dedicated discussion with Day[9], Tyler, and other naysayers of imbalance would balance out the overall discussion for it to be much more insightful and productive. | ||
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Duravi
United States1205 Posts
It would be helpful if people read more than the last two pages. We have already gone over many different ways that Zergs can scout over Protoss. Nobody cares about what some people in the thread's opinion of what zerg can do is vs. Idra's, this is a show discussion thread. We are trying to talk about what went on during the show, what Idra's points were and how Day9 responded to them, not what you or some other guy thinks about the state of zerg. | ||
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NikonTC
United Kingdom418 Posts
The sticking point for me is that IdrA's arguments only hold up if he is actually better than everyone else, and this simply isn't the case. He's one of the best, certainly, but the gap between him and the people he looks down on is much smaller than he things. Calling KiWiKaki and naniwa bad players just reinforces how highly idra thinks of himself, and its because he loses games to players he views as "bronze league" compared to himself that he assumed it must be balance related, as these terrible players couldnt possibly be anywhere near his level, right? | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:37 Duravi wrote: Nobody cares about what some people in the thread's opinion of what zerg can do is vs. Idra's, this is a show discussion thread. We are trying to talk about what went on during the show, what Idra's points were and how Day9 responded to them, not what you or some other guy thinks about the state of zerg. Thats fair. But that is not the discussion going on. People are not saying "This is what Idra said and this is what Day9 said." They are saying "Idra was right, Zergs cannot do X." There is a huge difference between the former and the latter, and I do not need to be a pro to be able to say something about the latter. Just watching pro games I can comment by giving examples of pros that either prove Idra right or prove him wrong in particular games. | ||
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dark14cs
143 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:35 zs3000 wrote: You realize Idra whole arguement was "I know everything, there's nothing else to ever know about anything ever" Your right, terrible guy. I tend to give more weight to the person who plays the game for a living rather than a professional commentator. | ||
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