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On May 04 2011 22:09 Linkirvana wrote:Show nested quote +If it's too soon to cry imbalanced now then why has the game already been patched a bazillion times? Why aren't they extremely upset at Blizzard nerfing the Thor? Maybe they're just against having the discussion, if that's the case would they be upset if Blizzard buffed Zerg? I don't think so, I think that if Blizzard buff Zerg for ZvP Day9 would just say that ZvP was "tough" and that it was probably a good change, well maybe he wouldn't now because of all the discussions that have been had, but still. What? The game has been patched a bazillion times because there were some tactics that got too powerful, that has absolutely nothing to do with claiming race X has a fundamental disadvantage in regard to other races.
How do you know they were too strong? You didn't wait eight years for the metagame to evolve
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Oh my... if IdrA dislike zerg so much he just have to switch.
and don't use the argument that he prefer zerg and all that i played for one year.
He know zerg lategame is the best in sc2 that's why he doesn't want to switch.
he just want to go to this stage safely to win every time because right now IdrA is just so good when the game last more longer it's not fair for the other players.
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Having played WoW for 6 years, I can tell you this: if members of a class/race aren't complaining about something, it generally means that that something is imbalanced in their favour.
100% true
Just look at all the protoss "the game is balanced", and the zerg "the game is imbalanced".
It's just obvious.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 04 2011 22:08 HyperLimen wrote:
Did they reach 20k ? I skimmed the past few pages and saw nothing but the usual retarded arguing.
Yes they did
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On May 04 2011 22:11 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:09 Linkirvana wrote:If it's too soon to cry imbalanced now then why has the game already been patched a bazillion times? Why aren't they extremely upset at Blizzard nerfing the Thor? Maybe they're just against having the discussion, if that's the case would they be upset if Blizzard buffed Zerg? I don't think so, I think that if Blizzard buff Zerg for ZvP Day9 would just say that ZvP was "tough" and that it was probably a good change, well maybe he wouldn't now because of all the discussions that have been had, but still. What? The game has been patched a bazillion times because there were some tactics that got too powerful, that has absolutely nothing to do with claiming race X has a fundamental disadvantage in regard to other races. How do you know they were too strong? You didn't wait eight years for the metagame to evolve
That's retarded.
It is WAY WAY more easy to determine whether a certain strategy is imbalanced.
Dude seriously, you do know the difference between a strategy and an entire race right?
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On May 04 2011 22:12 Linkirvana wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:11 hugman wrote:On May 04 2011 22:09 Linkirvana wrote:If it's too soon to cry imbalanced now then why has the game already been patched a bazillion times? Why aren't they extremely upset at Blizzard nerfing the Thor? Maybe they're just against having the discussion, if that's the case would they be upset if Blizzard buffed Zerg? I don't think so, I think that if Blizzard buff Zerg for ZvP Day9 would just say that ZvP was "tough" and that it was probably a good change, well maybe he wouldn't now because of all the discussions that have been had, but still. What? The game has been patched a bazillion times because there were some tactics that got too powerful, that has absolutely nothing to do with claiming race X has a fundamental disadvantage in regard to other races. How do you know they were too strong? You didn't wait eight years for the metagame to evolve That's retarded. It is WAY WAY more easy to determine whether a certain strategy is imbalanced. Dude seriously, you do know the difference between a strategy and an entire race right?
We are talking about a general strategy, wich involve a race. So that is the same...
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On May 04 2011 22:11 phisku wrote:
Oh my... if IdrA dislike zerg so much he just have to switch.
and don't use the argument that he prefer zerg and all that i played for one year.
He know zerg lategame is the best in sc2 that's why he doesn't want to switch.
he just want to go to this stage safely to win every time because right now IdrA is just so good when the game last more longer it's not fair for the other players.
You're retarded. Zerg compliment's IdrA's skillset the most. He is the macro king, he has brilliant multitasking, and no race rewards that more than Zerg.
There's been a lot of dumb things said in this thread, but this might eclipse it. IdrA's biased for sure, but I don't think anyone could dismiss the points he brought up, they were good points. As were Gretorp's in the last SotG.
Zerg lategame is the best? *snicker*
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We are talking about a general strategy, wich involve a race. So it's the same...
....
Really? You think a discussion about fighting off a 4gate would be the same length as a discussion about fighting off Protoss?
I cannot even begin to comprehend the logic behind your statement, out of this world really.
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On May 04 2011 21:55 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 21:53 Leavzou wrote:
I dont get the "all the doors havent been opened yet", seriously.
How can you say that ? How do you know that they havent been opened if you don't know if they exist or not ?
It's a really bad point of view, and we could say that even in BW, all the doors havent been opened. You can always say that and never acknowledge imbalance even if it's completely obvious. Now I don't know if there is any imbalance right now because I'm not an expert, but Day9's attitude is really quite stupid. Imbalance can exist and acting like it's not possible or ignoring the discussion is not helpful in any way.
The discussion is not helpful if you're a game player.
You can get so caught up in the imbalance that you concede a game when your opponent spawns a bunch of hallucinations to mimic a strategy that you're convinced is imbalanced (deathball).
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Dang, thought I could stay awake for last night's episode, but I fell asleep during the preshow T_T
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On May 04 2011 22:12 Linkirvana wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:11 hugman wrote:On May 04 2011 22:09 Linkirvana wrote:If it's too soon to cry imbalanced now then why has the game already been patched a bazillion times? Why aren't they extremely upset at Blizzard nerfing the Thor? Maybe they're just against having the discussion, if that's the case would they be upset if Blizzard buffed Zerg? I don't think so, I think that if Blizzard buff Zerg for ZvP Day9 would just say that ZvP was "tough" and that it was probably a good change, well maybe he wouldn't now because of all the discussions that have been had, but still. What? The game has been patched a bazillion times because there were some tactics that got too powerful, that has absolutely nothing to do with claiming race X has a fundamental disadvantage in regard to other races. How do you know they were too strong? You didn't wait eight years for the metagame to evolve That's retarded. It is WAY WAY more easy to determine whether a certain strategy is imbalanced. Dude seriously, you do know the difference between a strategy and an entire race right?
There are lots of specific strats in ZvP that could, and have been discussed. They weren't discussed so much in this episode because the discussion had already been had and dismissed by Day9, but early game volatility is far from the only ZvP issue and it's really more of a ZvT issue.
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Hmm detected hallucinations should have less threat level btw.
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On May 04 2011 22:15 Linkirvana wrote:Show nested quote +
We are talking about a general strategy, wich involve a race. So it's the same...
.... Really? You think a discussion about fighting off a 4gate would be the same length as a discussion about fighting off Protoss? I cannot even begin to comprehend the logic behind your statement, out of this world really.
Are you freaking serious ?
Idra explained what strategy/thing are imbalanced, and you know what ? Protoss can abuse these things.
Do you seriously think zerg fear protoss because it's write "protoss" on the load screen ?
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On May 04 2011 22:11 Leavzou wrote:Show nested quote +Having played WoW for 6 years, I can tell you this: if members of a class/race aren't complaining about something, it generally means that that something is imbalanced in their favour. 100% true Just look at all the protoss "the game is balanced", and the zerg "the game is imbalanced". It's just obvious.
And look at Blizzards Protoss-Nerfs
oh wait
Please read his post the fullest. And think about things. Actually in a german forum i analyzed many ZvPs, told them what they could do better, how i lose my games etc. and they just didn't stop complaining. So it could be that Protosses are just getting tired...
Maybe that's also why they don't say anythng, but i think i would still find it interesting what they have trouble with. But by reading posts like yours i think it will not help to get most Zergs any more intelligent. But i think for the 2 Zergs who get something out of it it would be worth it.
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Wow, that discussion between Tyler and Geof/Idra about the EGMasterCup was quite shocking. I'm not sure if Geof was missing the point voluntarily or not. The point is Liquid has a high ethic standard. When other teams comes to promote their product on Liquid, either they adopt themselves that high ethic standard or they just don't come to Liquid.
In the current situation, I'm not far to think that if EG was in liquid situation of having a site in quasi monopoly on starcraft market, the "growth of esport" argument that Geof loved using during their debate would be much, much worse. Because they would try to benefit a lot, lot more financially and would just let sponsors or anyone with a big enough check say whatever bullshit they want on their site. And most likely would prevent competition of existing on their site.
Tyler wasn't saying "You come on liquid so don't say anything bad about liquid", he was saying you come on liquid so don't spew PR bullshit because our forum tries to stay protected of that. And Liquid is what it is because of this. I'm sad Tyler didn't find the words to express how that speech from Geof was just off topic. If Tyler and Liquid were like Geof described with his "dangerous way of thinking", they would just remove the EG thread and not put the tourney on the calendar. It would have 500 viewers, and then Geof could talk about "dangerous way of thinking".
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Dude seriously, you do know the difference between a strategy and an entire race right?
There are lots of specific strats in ZvP that could, and have been discussed. They weren't discussed so much in this episode because the discussion had already been had and dismissed by Day9, but early game volatility is far from the only ZvP issue and it's really more of a ZvT issue.[/QUOTE]
Even an entire match-up is so detailed and complex that it will take plenty of time to figure out most of the action/reaction possibilities there.
Surely you do realize that specific strats were not part of the discussion? The discussion was about whether Zerg has a _FUNDAMENTAL_ disadvantage towards other races!
Holy fuck, this really isn't that complicated.
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On May 04 2011 22:20 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:11 Leavzou wrote:Having played WoW for 6 years, I can tell you this: if members of a class/race aren't complaining about something, it generally means that that something is imbalanced in their favour. 100% true Just look at all the protoss "the game is balanced", and the zerg "the game is imbalanced". It's just obvious. And look at Blizzards Protoss-Nerfs oh wait Please read his post the fullest. And think about things. Actually in a german forum i analyzed many ZvPs, told them what they could do better, how i lose my games etc. and they just didn't stop complaining. So it could be that Protosses are just getting tired... Maybe that's also why they don't say anythng, but i think i would still find it interesting what they have trouble with. But by reading posts like yours i think it will not help to get most Zergs any more intelligent. But i think for the 2 Zergs who get something out of it it would be worth it.
Yeah you are right, zergs have differents brain than protoss.
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IdrA obviously knows that not everything he talks about is imbalanced. However the discussion on early game scouting was well argued and day9 was just completely dismissive. There's lots of stuff that you can honestly say "well game is evolving and maybe we just haven't found the way to deal with it yet", but the early scouting problem is not gonna change in any way. It's bad design for the most reactive race to have the worst scouting, and that's not gonna magically change when people "figure the game out better".
Some of the stuff day9 said in that episode was completely incoherent, but I get his point that statistically you should be wary of crying imbalance too fast. His degree in math clearly makes him see the game differently than IdrA, he just doesn't seem to explain his insight very well in their discussions.
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A lot of people calling Tyler arrogant are doing so seemingly because he mentioned Colbi coming to "his" forum, where the insinuation seems to be that he means Team Liquid as his forum because of his connection to Team Liquid. I sincerely believe that if Tyler was on team ROOT and the issue involved team ROOT he would have said the same things in the same way, and defended them on SotG the same way.
I really feel based on what he said that Tyler feels an ownership and veteranship on these forums that is independent of him being on the titular team. As he said towards the end of SotG, he often engages in self-destructive behavior on the forums (at least in the past), and sometimes doesn't think about how he's coming off while saying what he feels.
Tyler may well still be arrogant, but I don't think he really implied it to mean that nobody can post their business here but TL. I sincerely believe (but can't prove) that he meant it be that nobody can post their business here but the TL community.
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