On May 04 2011 21:53 Leavzou wrote: I dont get the "all the doors havent been opened yet", seriously.
How can you say that ? How do you know that they havent been opened if you don't know if they exist or not ?
It's a really bad point of view, and we could say that even in BW, all the doors havent been opened.
You can always say that and never acknowledge imbalance even if it's completely obvious. Now I don't know if there is any imbalance right now because I'm not an expert, but Day9's attitude is really quite stupid. Imbalance can exist and acting like it's not possible or ignoring the discussion is not helpful in any way.
On May 04 2011 20:18 hugman wrote: I mostly agree with IdrA, he's the only one making rational arguments. When I watched his recent ZvPs and read the LR threads I was surprised to see so many people saying that IdrA's figured out ZvP or something when he did lots of random all-ins, and regarding the last game vs KiWi specifically KiWi definitely threw that game away but people were still saying he lost because of the drops of something. It would've been like Mondragon vs Cruncher if KiWi had just turtled for a bit longer.
this includes all major foreign tournaments in the last 6 months.
I dont see how saying if a zerg wins playing standard its because hes a better player, but if a protoss wins playing standard its because of imbalance is a very rational argument.
Stop linking that fucking stupid chart. [...]
Day9 wants to claim that the point at which we can consider a sufficient amount of time to have passed to still be way out in the future and Idra wants to suggest that that point has since come and gone. [...]
A lot of TLers seem to think not touching anything and waiting half a decade for some new strategy to evolve that balances out a seemingly perpetually broken match up is the holy grail of game balance. [...]
Yes, that chart is lacking in many ways, Blizzards charts is way better combined with the way they approach balance.
I thought that day9 was pointing out that nobody in that "room" had all the data and feedback that Blizzard has.
Well, looking at the board game Go you could say that patching a game can be a job that takes several hundreds of years if it is more complicated than chess. So having a bit of respect for the task and the current lack of data is not that bad.
On May 04 2011 21:34 magha wrote: Please stop bringing Idra on the show and get less pessimistic depressive Zergs. Maybe some of the more up-and-coming Zergs such as Sheth, Vibe or Slush.
He also happens to be one of the premier zerg players, yaknow?
I don't think having a show full of 'optimistic' people, patting each on the back would be a very good show.
On May 04 2011 21:51 thebole1 wrote: hahahhaah IDRA THE KING.... >>>> gay 9.. sry day 9 :D....
On May 04 2011 21:53 Leavzou wrote: I dont get the "all the doors havent been opened yet", seriously.
How can you say that ? How do you know that they havent been opened if you don't know if they exist or not ?
It's a really bad point of view, and we could say that even in BW, all the doors havent been opened.
You can always say that and never acknowledge imbalance even if it's completely obvious. Now I don't know if there is any imbalance right now because I'm not an expert, but Day9's attitude is really quite stupid. Imbalance can exist and acting like it's not possible or ignoring the discussion is not helpful in any way.
I totally agree with the fact that Day9 is wrong in this case.
I was just saying that it's stupid to say "the game is balanced because maybe..."
I would love to see an extra ZvP strategy discussion (WITHOUT Idra) in the next SotG. Get a player who understands the matchup (Sheth) and then i want from the Protosses to hear, what they fear and hate about Zerg.
I think one part of the problem of communication actually is that the Protosses don't complain about Zerg. Not that they need to, but if you only hear Zergs cry but no Protosses say what they have trouble with, you start to believe the MU is imba. I actually thought that until i hit a wall against Zergs in the ladder because many started to play their own strategies (Every Protoss knows how to counter Idra style). And i started to wonder. But Zergs don't get that if you don't tell them that you can have trouble against Zergs.
You can always say that and never acknowledge imbalance even if it's completely obvious. Now I don't know if there is any imbalance right now because I'm not an expert, but Day9's attitude is really quite stupid. Imbalance can exist and acting like it's not possible or ignoring the discussion is not helpful in any way.
I completely disagree.
Don't you get why Day9 does not want to have the discussion? It's quite clear that he thinks we should be nowhere near crying imbalance because of where the game is at right now. And with where the game is at right now he clearly means that the game is new and not enough time has passed to conclude that race X is really underpowered.
I'm not necesarrily all the way in Day9's camp of the story, however I do feel that Idra's crying for imbalance is way too soon.
On May 04 2011 21:58 ridonkulous wrote: ok latest show just proved how much idra is biased toward zergs,
Thank you for that contribution. Would you care to elaborate instead of keeping all the actual arguments inside your own head? IdrA made rational arguments, Day9 just tried to argue against the discussion as a whole
On May 04 2011 21:58 gnutz wrote: I would love to see an extra ZvP strategy discussion (WITHOUT Idra) in the next SotG. Get a player who understands the matchup (Sheth) and then i want from the Protosses to hear, what they fear and hate about Zerg.
I think one part of the problem of communication actually is that the Protosses don't complain about Zerg. Not that they need to, but if you only hear Zergs cry but no Protosses say what they have trouble with, you start to believe the MU is imba. I actually thought that until i hit a wall against Zergs in the ladder because many started to play their own strategies (Every Protoss knows how to counter Idra style). And i started to wonder. But Zergs don't get that if you don't tell them that you can have trouble against Zergs.
Are you serious about sheth ?
Idra has 10* more experience than him in every match up, and know 10* more thing than him with the game in general.
Stop talking about Sheth, he is a great player, but he has absolutly no clue about the game in high level, and had never beat top tier players. He is just a ladder farmer.
On May 04 2011 14:58 ronpaul012 wrote: I think I'm officially jumping on the hate incontrol bandwagon. I 1. used to debate, as did he and 2. I'm a sales associate. I know how to manipulate people's words to make them sound silly, while making your own point yourself. For him to use his tactics on another pro gamer is pretty disgusting. Everything about him and his gf really just seem corny. I can see them sitting at dinner bming every other pro gamer and "friend" they have then putting on their masks as they go online. Tyler had some good points, and incontrol just came and picked up a few points while leaving out others and bashed him. Also, the way he treats Idra (arguably the best foreigner out there) when he's attempting to make logical points on what he sees as op is extremely frustrating. Instead of giving him solutions, he immediately just shuts him down.
All in all, most people probably cant even see through him. But for some of us, we can see him as a troll who thinks he's above every other pro gamer, and just plays along to gain power.
Possibly the smartest post I've read in a while, sums up my thoughts on the matter too.
I can't see how anyone could support this argument. Every non-biased person in the entire world can see that Tyler is out of line, even TL admins. Look at that post, assuming that him and his girlfriend sit at the table and BM everyone? iNcontroL often compliments teams, players and leagues that he is not affiliated with. I felt that iNcontroL argued really well, and Tyler had nothing to fall back on, and I think most people agree that about half way through that argument he just dribbled. While it may have been out of line for iNcontroL to call Tyler's rationalization "Texan", I don't think anyone could blame him for whipping out the "do you really like Stride gum you dumb motherfucker"? I laughed so hard I had tears coming from my eyes. Tyler's argument that the forums should be where everyone just blurts out whatever they're thinking is a total joke and super unprofessional.
And everyone makes fun of IdrA. At times, IdrA makes fun of IdrA. iNcontroL doesn't dismiss the balance statements, but it's hard not to poke fun at the fact that Greg cries imbalance every time he loses (and wins). And IdrA's my favourite player.
I'm not a huge fan of iNcontroL, but from listening to him on SotG and hearing his commentary, I don't think he thinks he's above anyone. He comes across as a genuinely nice guy, while I don't know him on a personal level, I can't help but think that these posts can only logically come from a huge Tyler fanboy.
You can always say that and never acknowledge imbalance even if it's completely obvious. Now I don't know if there is any imbalance right now because I'm not an expert, but Day9's attitude is really quite stupid. Imbalance can exist and acting like it's not possible or ignoring the discussion is not helpful in any way.
I completely disagree.
Don't you get why Day9 does not want to have the discussion? It's quite clear that he thinks we should be nowhere near crying imbalance because of where the game is at right now. And with where the game is at right now he clearly means that the game is new and not enough time has passed to conclude that race X is really underpowered.
I'm not necesarrily all the way in Day9's camp of the story, however I do feel that Idra's crying for imbalance is way too soon.
If it's too soon to cry imbalanced now then why has the game already been patched a bazillion times? Why aren't they extremely upset at Blizzard nerfing the Thor? Maybe they're just against having the discussion, if that's the case would they be upset if Blizzard buffed Zerg? I don't think so, I think that if Blizzard buff Zerg for ZvP Day9 would just say that ZvP was "tough" and that it was probably a good change, well maybe he wouldn't now because of all the discussions that have been had, but still.
On May 04 2011 21:58 gnutz wrote: I would love to see an extra ZvP strategy discussion (WITHOUT Idra) in the next SotG. Get a player who understands the matchup (Sheth) and then i want from the Protosses to hear, what they fear and hate about Zerg.
I think one part of the problem of communication actually is that the Protosses don't complain about Zerg. Not that they need to, but if you only hear Zergs cry but no Protosses say what they have trouble with, you start to believe the MU is imba. I actually thought that until i hit a wall against Zergs in the ladder because many started to play their own strategies (Every Protoss knows how to counter Idra style). And i started to wonder. But Zergs don't get that if you don't tell them that you can have trouble against Zergs.
Are you serious about sheth ?
Idra has 10* more experience than him in every match up, and know 10* more thing than him with the game in general.
Stop talking about Sheth, he is a great player, but he has absolutly no clue about the game in high level, and had never beat top tier players. He is just a ladder farmer.
I don't know why Naniwa said he feared to play against Sheth, the other Zergs would be no problem at MLG Dallas, but i think he has a reason.
I didn't watch the episode yet. But one suggestion for the show would be:
Try to get the discussion to flow better. Last times it was always like: lets talk about MLG... what do you think day9... what do you think tyler... what do you think incontrol...
On May 04 2011 21:58 gnutz wrote: I would love to see an extra ZvP strategy discussion (WITHOUT Idra) in the next SotG. Get a player who understands the matchup (Sheth) and then i want from the Protosses to hear, what they fear and hate about Zerg.
I think one part of the problem of communication actually is that the Protosses don't complain about Zerg. Not that they need to, but if you only hear Zergs cry but no Protosses say what they have trouble with, you start to believe the MU is imba. I actually thought that until i hit a wall against Zergs in the ladder because many started to play their own strategies (Every Protoss knows how to counter Idra style). And i started to wonder. But Zergs don't get that if you don't tell them that you can have trouble against Zergs.
Having played WoW for 6 years, I can tell you this: if members of a class/race aren't complaining about something, it generally means that that something is imbalanced in their favour.
Well, either that or they have completely given up hope.
If it's too soon to cry imbalanced now then why has the game already been patched a bazillion times? Why aren't they extremely upset at Blizzard nerfing the Thor? Maybe they're just against having the discussion, if that's the case would they be upset if Blizzard buffed Zerg? I don't think so, I think that if Blizzard buff Zerg for ZvP Day9 would just say that ZvP was "tough" and that it was probably a good change, well maybe he wouldn't now because of all the discussions that have been had, but still.
What? The game has been patched a bazillion times because there were some tactics that got too powerful, that has absolutely nothing to do with claiming race X has a fundamental disadvantage in regard to other races.
I like to see less 4gates, which is why I think the new warp gate research time is good. Do I however think Protoss is OP? No I don't.
On May 04 2011 21:58 gnutz wrote: I would love to see an extra ZvP strategy discussion (WITHOUT Idra) in the next SotG. Get a player who understands the matchup (Sheth) and then i want from the Protosses to hear, what they fear and hate about Zerg.
I think one part of the problem of communication actually is that the Protosses don't complain about Zerg. Not that they need to, but if you only hear Zergs cry but no Protosses say what they have trouble with, you start to believe the MU is imba. I actually thought that until i hit a wall against Zergs in the ladder because many started to play their own strategies (Every Protoss knows how to counter Idra style). And i started to wonder. But Zergs don't get that if you don't tell them that you can have trouble against Zergs.
It's part of our secret conspiracy to keep Zergs down!
Seriously though, IME toss players (myself included) struggle with what they tell Zergs to do: unexpected early aggression (most Zergs play as passive as Idra), multi pronged attacks, drops, infestors. I watched Sheth's replay pack where he destroys pretty much every toss and that's how they lost too. Seems like GSL level tosses lose their games like this too.
For some reason whenever these things are mentioned they get dismissed as unviable for some reason or another. Go figure.
EPT
