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On April 15 2011 02:42 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:34 Talin wrote:
IdrA was never in his career known as a very cerebral, progressive player whose knowledge "far surpasses" everybody else, so you pulled that statement out of nowhere. He's the exact opposite - a player who can be extremely successful due to mechanics and execution, but don't hold your breath expecting him to evolve or far be it revolutionize Zerg gameplay. Exactly, if anything he was made fun by the community of for being pretty robotic in his builds, which in turn made him predictable and fairly prone to cheese... and he had the exact same reaction when he'd lose.. he'd blame on balance.. enough of his antics already, the guy is pretty much a has-been now that players with better decision making and imagination are catching up in mechanics.
Has-been? Who is a better Zerg? I agree that he's not the cerebral player Talin was making him out to be, but Idra is still one of the best Zerg players in the world. He is most certainly not a has-been.
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On April 15 2011 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Ho my god please stop talking... Day9 best BW foreigner ? More likely nony or idra...
And MONDRAGON SAID BUILD ROACHES AGAINST VOID RAYS lollll......... Come on please, don't listen to day9 too much man, mondragon never said to build roach against void, sure i'm gonna counter mothership with ling lolmao..... Get back to earth, mondragon made this roach heavy build to counter zeerax build. Zeerax basically goes for voidray/colo/expand everygame.
You have a serious issue with (not) reading the posts you reply to.
I didn't say Day9 was the best BW foreigner, I said he was ONE OF the top foreign players while he competed (and that wasn't too long ago).
I didn't say Mondragon said that you should build Roaches against a Stargate, I said that IF HE HAD SAID THAT people would be laughing it away the same way because he's "not a serious top player like Idra".
Zeerax doesn't do that every game, and Mondragon didn't "make that build", his play in that game was completely reactionary.
Try posting something relevant next time.
On April 15 2011 03:55 soupchicken wrote:
Has-been? Who is a better Zerg? I agree that he's not the cerebral player Talin was making him out to be, but Idra is still one of the best Zerg players in the world. He is most certainly not a has-been.
You also have an issue with reading. I never said that, I said the exact opposite of that.
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8751 Posts
On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year
First, they are beating top players.
Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200.
Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN?????
Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever.
There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks"
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On April 15 2011 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:
That is silly man, since when do zerg have a hard time reinforcing bases ? You really think nydus can help ? I mean come on, every master player spread creep, every zerg units are damn fast on creep, every damn game a zerg just know when he is going to get attack and position his army in the right way, nydus in expand have maybe one or two purpose : defending against dt harass / dropship harass in long maccro game MAYBE, and that's not cost effectiv. Maps are not yet big enough to do that, it's not bw.
Sheth is damn good, i admit it, but he has only beaten artosis in NASL and said that he is afraid of kiwikaki, a protoss.
After watching Spanishiwa last night lose his main to a Terran on Shakuras, and respond by expanding and double nydusing his opponent, I'm a believer.
There was a point were Spanishiwa sent Ultras through a nydus at a Terran expansion while the Terran sieged in front of Spanishwa's bases. He then walked the Ultra's to Terran's main, sacked it, put down a nydus in the main, and retreated through it so he could bring back the Ultras instantly to his base and defend against the seige.
Nyduses are very viable, we're just not clever or hardworking enough to use them.
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On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran
Yet protoss didn't get huge buffs against terran. Gateway units were considered trash back then, now many players stick with gateway units for a long time and do really well against terrans It was more of a revolution in play than patches solving the game. Idra and zergs just go straight to the patching solution, regardless of what anyone says the wins are due to luck and losses due to "cannot win, period".
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You can accuse them of hypocrisy if you want, but the other thing those comments illustrate is how the game can change. PvT was looking pretty damn bleak at that time, similar to ZvP now, but people got used to Terran's plays and things changed.
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On April 15 2011 03:48 imbs wrote:
some of the quotes are slightly out of context but none of them are drastically altered with context at all, they were whining about protoss albeit less outspokenly than idra was whether you like it or not and they *were* discussing balance.
But at the same time they still had an attitude indicating that losses were their own fault and that Protoss were making mistakes to lose games not imbalance. I'm just really not seeing the comparison between thinking something is hard but possible and this is impossible I have no chance to win. I'm not sure if you're trying to make them out to be hypocrites, but though they may have thought terran timings were hard to deal with at the time their attitude on how to approach the game really hasn't changed.
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On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran
Outspoken doesn't enter into it. The content of what he is saying (patch needed) is different than the content of what Inc and Tyler were saying. You can't knock them for having a problem with a matchup, because they don't have problems with others who have a problem with their trouble matchups. I believe you were saying they were hypocritical, yes?
They didn't start knocking Idra until he said the game was obviously broken.
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On April 15 2011 01:05 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 23:15 Defacer wrote:
I highly encourage all Zergs to watch Spanishiwa's stream. He will also be on the Day 9 Daily tonight.
There's still some aspects of his overall strategies that feel 'iffy', similar to Catz or Kiwikaki. But seriously, he's probably one of the most naturally gifted tactical players out there right now. He wins in situations that most Zergs consider 'unwinnable' right now.
Last night, he broke a line of 8 or 9 seige tanks with maybe 18 ling and a handful of banelings, by executing a great magic box spilt. In another game, he took out a three-base toss, despite being contained on two bases, by sending burrowed infestors to the tosses mineral lines and delaying his deathball. His games are full of these WTF moments.
Somehow, I understand IdrA's reaction with like everybody on the scene trying to telling the zerg how to play. Just ask Spanishiwa about balance, you think that because you saw him one time killing a bunch of tank with a handful of zergling he has the gold ticket for zerg's play ? Can I remind you that Catz, one of the most inventiv zerg, has already said that protoss is too good in this very forum, and has never gone as far as IdrA in tournaments. I want to see what Spanishiwa do in a big tournament like MLG, I'm pretty sure that, as good as he is, he will never go far with in infestor play and such, because one game is good, the problem with that kind of play is consistency. Like CatZ going for 200/200 muta, and every protoss saying: HEY THAT S THE COUNTER TO PROTOSS DEATH BALL... and then CatZ himself going in and saying: hello that was one game where I had the opportunity to go 200/200 because the protoss just did not scout, despite having the best scout tools in the game.
IdrA himself has described Zerg as the reactionary race. Maybe a better description would be the improvisational race. While Zerg doesn't have the best units, they have the cheapest, most massable, least 'specialized' ones.
Maybe Zerg just requires a different approach to the game, an benefits people like Spanishiwa or TLO or JulyZerg that like harass and making decisions on the fly. It doesn't make it imbalanced.
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On April 15 2011 03:57 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran Yet protoss didn't get huge buffs against terran. Gateway units were considered trash back then, now many players stick with gateway units for a long time and do really well against terrans It was more of a revolution in play than patches solving the game. Idra and zergs just go straight to the patching solution, regardless of what anyone says the wins are due to luck and losses due to "cannot win, period".
Not really true. Siege tanks were nerfed which is what has since allowed the prevalence of gateway units. Tank play fell completely out of favor because zealots rolled over them.
The problem with going back and doing the whole "yeah but so and so said this 6 months ago" is that it almost always result in revisionist history
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On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks"
Why do you and inc single out and reply to the worst posts?
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On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop.
In my opinion you're the one whining. He complains because he wants a balanced game, when his race is strong, he talks about it, when it's weak, he talks about it.
On April 15 2011 02:13 sekritzzz wrote:
Demand 1: Nerf terran and we will be happy
Blizzard: Tanks do 35(50 armoured) now instead of flat out 50
Demand 2: Nerf reapers/bunkers and we will be happy
Blizzard: reapers/bunkers nerfed
Demand 3: nerf early zealot rushes and we will be happy
Blizzard" nerfed zealot built time
Demand 4: Blizzard remake every single map of yours and make them bigger=zerg balanced
Blizzard: Remakes almost every single map except zerg favorite maps.
Demand 5: nerf HT
Blizzard" ht nerfed.
Yeah, and you truly believe Blizzard nerfed them just because zergs asked? It has nothing to do with the fact that those units were too strong, right?
Not to mention the map changes actually also helped the other races...
On April 15 2011 02:33 artanis2 wrote:
Why does every zerg player think they have to nydus into the enemy base to use it effectively?
Need a perfect wall in your third base? Select 5 drones, shift queue some spine crawlers and an evo chamber, herp derp.
Yeah, because losing 5 workers and getting 4 static defenses is way better than walling off with 3 unit producing buildigs that would be necessary anyway.
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On April 15 2011 04:04 floor exercise wrote:
Not really true. Siege tanks were nerfed which is what has since allowed the prevalence of gateway units. Tank play fell completely out of favor because zealots rolled over them.
Tanks weren't really the problem then actually. MMM timing pushes, the banshee/raven allin were the big ones. The reaction to the tank nerf was like "well it's nice that my zealots can kill tanks, but it doesn't matter much really".
Yeah Terran got a couple nerfs but it wasn't anything drastic. We just got more used to dealing with their pushes. In particular FF usage has improved tenfold.
There's at least as much tank play now as there was then, probably more funnily enough.
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8751 Posts
On April 15 2011 03:58 Yaotzin wrote:
You can accuse them of hypocrisy if you want, but the other thing those comments illustrate is how the game can change. PvT was looking pretty damn bleak at that time, similar to ZvP now, but people got used to Terran's plays and things changed.
Yeah honestly the more poignant lesson from the history imbs is providing there is that we're fine with PvT now and there weren't any significant patch changes (in fact KHAYDARIN AMULET GUYS WHAT ARE WE GONNA DOOOOOOOO?!? happened). It took a long time to come out of it though... and when we first started winning more, it was because of threatening all-in kind of plays protoss could do, that made terran play safer. Then we found a way to beat one dimensional terran play, that made terran have to play in other ways. By the time terran got really robust again in tvp, we also had robust pvt builds developed (upgrades!). And just like the 5hatch hydra --> muta build that saved ZvP in SC1, we had very early examples of the modern way to play PvT, but they just didnt catch on immediately. We saw double forge on metal like in season 3 of GSL?
Anyway, I never felt like protoss needed any more help than we could give ourselves. All matchups are not gonna feel completely balanced and great all of the time. If PvT is lookin scary and we make time to talk about PvT on SOTG when we have a good terran guest to balance things out, then I do my best to describe how I feel about the matchup. That is worlds away from the ridiculous behavior of zerg pros and the legions of zerg sympathizers on forums
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United States7483 Posts
Hey guys: stop complaining about balance, and play the game.
Zerg can win, terran can win, protoss can win, what's the problem?
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On April 15 2011 04:04 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" Why do you and inc single out and reply to the worst posts?
because by replying to the most extreme form of the negative posts hes actually responding to all of them at once
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On April 15 2011 03:57 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran Yet protoss didn't get huge buffs against terran. Gateway units were considered trash back then, now many players stick with gateway units for a long time and do really well against terrans It was more of a revolution in play than patches solving the game. Idra and zergs just go straight to the patching solution, regardless of what anyone says the wins are due to luck and losses due to "cannot win, period".
observer and phoenix build time buff, medivac speed nerf, repair nerf, stim nerf, bunker build time nerf
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On April 15 2011 04:11 Whitewing wrote:
Hey guys: stop complaining about balance, and play the game.
Zerg can win, terran can win, protoss can win, what's the problem?
I wish everyone had that mentality, that used to be the old Brood War mentality as well. You lose?, well thats your fault, learn to play better. But for some reason, StarCraft 2 comes along, and everything suddenly becomes balance problem instead of bad play.
Not saying theres no balance problems, there probably is, but stop complaining, you can't do anything about, only Blizzard can, just play the damn game.
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On April 15 2011 04:07 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:04 floor exercise wrote:
Not really true. Siege tanks were nerfed which is what has since allowed the prevalence of gateway units. Tank play fell completely out of favor because zealots rolled over them.
Tanks weren't really the problem then actually. MMM timing pushes, the banshee/raven allin were the big ones. The reaction to the tank nerf was like "well it's nice that my zealots can kill tanks, but it doesn't matter much really". Yeah Terran got a couple nerfs but it wasn't anything drastic. We just got more used to dealing with their pushes. In particular FF usage has improved tenfold. There's at least as much tank play now as there was then, probably more funnily enough.
??? I dunno where you are coming from here.
The guy was saying "hey remember when everyone said gate units were worthless but we just gritted out teeth like manly Protoss men and now they are great" which is factually wrong, since siege tanks destroyed every gate unit and now siege tanks are really terrible against chargelots
You seem to be mentioning other builds unrelated, but there's plenty of examples of MMM being nerfed as well from barracks to stim to medivacs themselves to people becoming better with FF to maps becoming bigger.
It's just a different game today than it was a few months ago. There are so many factors completely ignored when people try to use an example of how things were to justify how things are today or how they might be tomorrow. Anyone on either side of the balance arguments are using equally flawed examples
I am not advocating fixes or saying anything about the game is broken. The logic on display is the only definitively broken thing I am seeing
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On April 15 2011 04:16 LastMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:57 karpo wrote:On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran Yet protoss didn't get huge buffs against terran. Gateway units were considered trash back then, now many players stick with gateway units for a long time and do really well against terrans It was more of a revolution in play than patches solving the game. Idra and zergs just go straight to the patching solution, regardless of what anyone says the wins are due to luck and losses due to "cannot win, period". observer and phoenix build time buff, medivac speed nerf, repair nerf, stim nerf, bunker build time nerf
Hallucination research time decrease, void ray damage bonus to massive, repairing SCV target priority (edit: ah you said that already  , but that was huge)
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EPT
