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On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year
You presume his build won't work at the highest level, because he loses to Incontrol??? how about his wins against PainUser, ROOTKitty and plenty other high-level players? oh those were ladder games... but Incontrol's weren't? Give it some time for the build to be refined against cheese... and yeah, I don't think too many people fiddled with this opening, because, among other factors, Idra and other top zergs don't play Zerg like that.
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On April 15 2011 02:37 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:13 sekritzzz wrote:Yet the whines still continue. Honestly zergs just need to get out of this whole im losing because of balance mentality or they'll be whining for years to come. Its the most detrimental factor in the ZvT,ZvP match ups. So why are Zerg whining? Because of IdrA? What are the odds that the majority of the players most pre-disposed to whine all picked Zerg?
A while ago, Protoss was whining about GSL results. It got nowhere - the reason it stopped: primarily, Liquid'Nazgul and some other top toss players stepped in and said (more or less) "quit whining protoss is fine", and he was right, as far as I can tell.
Imagine if someone like Huk had suddenly became an outspoken proponent of the idea that no Protoss can win against good players of other races, at a time when protoss wasn't winning many tournaments. Do you think the whining would have continued, or even gotten louder? Certainly it would. This is more evidence of mob mentality than it is "proof" of how underpowered a race is.
As a sidenote, apparently having Idra on once implies 80 pages of zerg "balance discussion" most of which is completely unfounded nonsense.
Also, I'm going to repeat something which keeps being stated that isn't true: there is no consensus from top zergs that ZvP is even an unfavorable matchup. Some believe it is, others believe it isn't. You needn't look farther than the GSL for proof of that.
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On April 15 2011 02:52 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:37 hugman wrote:On April 15 2011 02:13 sekritzzz wrote:Yet the whines still continue. Honestly zergs just need to get out of this whole im losing because of balance mentality or they'll be whining for years to come. Its the most detrimental factor in the ZvT,ZvP match ups. So why are Zerg whining? Because of IdrA? What are the odds that the majority of the players most pre-disposed to whine all picked Zerg? A while ago, Protoss was whining about GSL results. It got nowhere - the reason it stopped: primarily, Liquid'Nazgul and some other top toss players stepped in and said (more or less) "quit whining protoss is fine", and he was right, as far as I can tell. Imagine if someone like Huk had suddenly became an outspoken proponent of the idea that no Protoss can win against good players of other races, at a time when protoss wasn't winning many tournaments. Do you think the whining would have continued, or even gotten louder? Certainly it would. This is more evidence of mob mentality than it is "proof" of how underpowered a race is. As a sidenote, apparently having Idra on once implies 80 pages of zerg "balance discussion" most of which is completely unfounded nonsense. Also, I'm going to repeat something which keeps being stated that isn't true: there is no consensus from top zergs that ZvP is even an unfavorable matchup. Some believe it is, others believe it isn't. You needn't look farther than the GSL for proof of that.
yes, look at the GSL where not a single Toss is picked until the 4th cycle during the Code S selection process
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definitely loved the BW talk. would like a lot more of that as it has so much strategic depth.
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Take at a look at FXOSheth, his ZvP is very good and he does very well vs Protoss.
And on the note of Nydus Worms, Incontrol said something that more Zergs need to read, Nydus worms don't always have to be used in a sneak attack. You can use them to compensate for lack of creep.
My stance on Zergs is to wait, remember in BW when Protoss couldn't beat Zerg at all? And then suddenly Bisu came out of nowhere and unleashed serious rape on sAviOr? I know it sucks at the moment, "standard strategies" aren't working, try something different before giving up. It pains me to see players like IdrA giving up, he's so, so, so, so fucking good. It's not even funny how good his mechanics are, the dude's a killing machine. But he's given up, his spirit is broken. He needs to get that fighting spirit back.
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On April 15 2011 02:34 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. Yeah, let's ignore one of the best foreign BW players just because he's got a fun light-hearted personality and gives the best advice any player who isn't a professional (and probably even some that are, nowadays) can get. Clearly he knows nothing about being a competitive player. You'd probably ignore Mondragon as well then, especially if he told you to build Roaches against Void Rays, right? -_-IdrA was never in his career known as a very cerebral, progressive player whose knowledge "far surpasses" everybody else, so you pulled that statement out of nowhere. He's the exact opposite - a player who can be extremely successful due to mechanics and execution, but don't hold your breath expecting him to evolve or far be it revolutionize Zerg gameplay.
Ho my god please stop talking... Day9 best BW foreigner ? More likely nony or idra...
And MONDRAGON SAID BUILD ROACHES AGAINST VOID RAYS lollll......... Come on please, don't listen to day9 too much man, mondragon never said to build roach against void, sure i'm gonna counter mothership with ling lolmao..... Get back to earth, mondragon made this roach heavy build to counter zeerax build. Zeerax basically goes for voidray/colo/expand everygame.
And on the note of Nydus Worms, Incontrol said something that more Zergs need to read, Nydus worms don't always have to be used in a sneak attack. You can use them to compensate for lack of creep.
That is silly man, since when do zerg have a hard time reinforcing bases ? You really think nydus can help ? I mean come on, every master player spread creep, every zerg units are damn fast on creep, every damn game a zerg just know when he is going to get attack and position his army in the right way, nydus in expand have maybe one or two purpose : defending against dt harass / dropship harass in long maccro game MAYBE, and that's not cost effectiv. Maps are not yet big enough to do that, it's not bw.
Sheth is damn good, i admit it, but he has only beaten artosis in NASL and said that he is afraid of kiwikaki, a protoss.
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On April 15 2011 03:03 Incursus wrote:
My stance on Zergs is to wait, remember in BW when Protoss couldn't beat Zerg at all? And then suddenly Bisu came out of nowhere and unleashed serious rape on sAviOr? I know it sucks at the moment, "standard strategies" aren't working, try something different before giving up. It pains me to see players like IdrA giving up, he's so, so, so, so fucking good. It's not even funny how good his mechanics are, the dude's a killing machine. But he's given up, his spirit is broken. He needs to get that fighting spirit back.
Yup.. wait and see when better players start playing the game. IdrA's mechanics ain't that good though, if you wanna see good mechanics watch a FPVOD of Jaedong, you may not survive the experience if you think a 200 APM player is 'so so fucking good'...
Edit: Oh and I agree about Sheth.. his ZvP is different (and better) than IdrA's.. even Naniwa thought he'd have hard time against him.
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The problem is not the Protoss death ball, if that was all they had it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that they have the death ball and incredibly strong early game pushes due to warp/chrono mechanics.
Still, what was said on the state of the game was pretty much spot on. There's a lot of things that should be explored and exhausted before you scream "the game is broken!". Plus, I think it will take quite some time for the game to settle, certain races will be on top for periods of time.
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On April 15 2011 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:
That is silly man, since when do zerg have a hard time reinforcing bases ? You really think nydus can help ? I mean come on, every master player spread creep, every zerg units are damn fast on creep, every damn game a zerg just know when he is going to get attack and position his army in the right way, nydus in expand have maybe one or two purpose : defending against dt harass / dropship harass in long maccro game MAYBE, and that's not cost effectiv. Maps are not yet big enough to do that, it's not bw.
You're thinking too close minded with Nydus. You can put Nydus worms anywhere you can see. It's not limited to your bases and their bases.
Also, there seems to be this idea that you can't stop zerg from spreading creep. Not a lot of people do it yet, but extremely skilled people do deny creep spread, and it's very detrimental to Zerg play. When this is more widespread it will make Nydus more useful as well.
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On April 15 2011 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Ho my god please stop talking... Day9 best BW foreigner ? More likely nony or idra...
And MONDRAGON SAID BUILD ROACHES AGAINST VOID RAYS lollll......... Come on please, don't listen to day9 too much man, mondragon never said to build roach against void, sure i'm gonna counter mothership with ling lolmao..... Get back to earth, mondragon made this roach heavy build to counter zeerax build. Zeerax basically goes for voidray/colo/expand everygame.
He said Day9 was one of the best foreigners, and that is factually true. In his prime -circa 2005/2006- he was the best US player and had very decent runs at the BW WCG tournaments.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
Seriously I have listened to the podcast 4times and every time I hear the BW analogies I laugh.
PvT is similar to ZvP in sc2??? Really?
In broodwar protoss had ample harassing and pressuring methods, as well as units that could help u negate/slow down Terran deathball. From shuttle play (reaver, dt drops, templar drops, zealot bombs), to early game pressure builds(10/15gate) to late game statis/recall and storm on deathball.
Zerg has no methods do to such stuff because even though the roles of the matchup has changed our basic harassing units have remained the same or gotten worse. We can't do early pressure because the way economy management works in starcraft2, and to add in that walls with canon and force-fields just annihilate anything we can do.
And tyler's analogy that if the races where all equal that the games would be like draw... really do mirror matchups end up in a draw? how do you win a ZvZ, PvP, TvT, ?? you gain small advantages over the long game, your build orders, refinement, macro, micro defines who wins.
What I don't understand is this, why did they not have this debate when idra was on the show, or better yet invite 2zergs (like idra, mondragon, morrow) that are familiar with both BW and the zerg race in sc2.
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here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage.
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On April 15 2011 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:34 Talin wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. Yeah, let's ignore one of the best foreign BW players just because he's got a fun light-hearted personality and gives the best advice any player who isn't a professional (and probably even some that are, nowadays) can get. Clearly he knows nothing about being a competitive player. You'd probably ignore Mondragon as well then, especially if he told you to build Roaches against Void Rays, right? -_-IdrA was never in his career known as a very cerebral, progressive player whose knowledge "far surpasses" everybody else, so you pulled that statement out of nowhere. He's the exact opposite - a player who can be extremely successful due to mechanics and execution, but don't hold your breath expecting him to evolve or far be it revolutionize Zerg gameplay. Ho my god please stop talking... Day9 best BW foreigner ? More likely nony or idra... And MONDRAGON SAID BUILD ROACHES AGAINST VOID RAYS lollll......... Come on please, don't listen to day9 too much man, mondragon never said to build roach against void, sure i'm gonna counter mothership with ling lolmao..... Get back to earth, mondragon made this roach heavy build to counter zeerax build. Zeerax basically goes for voidray/colo/expand everygame.
Your reading comprehension needs some work. He said that Day[9] is ONE of the best foreign players, and he was during 2005/06. Also, he used Mondragon's roach play as an analogy similar to how some people say "if X told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?"
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On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage.
You're actually just going through and selectively picking out quotes out of context to suit your argument. All of these quotes were in responses to questions about the subject, and you forgot to mention the part where Tyler exhibits the same attitude he has at the moment saying protoss losses are on the protoss and he feels like all of the losses he's seen in major tournaments are the result of mistakes or poor play.
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On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage.
Only proves that even the highest level players will be biased towards their own race. That's why using pros opinion about their race as some kind of argument for balance is meaningless.
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On April 15 2011 03:41 Hatorade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're actually just going through and selectively picking out quotes out of context to suit your argument. All of these quotes were in responses to questions about the subject, and you forgot to mention the part where Tyler exhibits the same attitude he has at the moment saying protoss losses are on the protoss and he feels like all of the losses he's seen in major tournaments are the result of mistakes or poor play.
some of the quotes are slightly out of context but none of them are drastically altered with context at all, they were whining about protoss albeit less outspokenly than idra was whether you like it or not and they *were* discussing balance.
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On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage.
You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes.
Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win.
Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact.
I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily.
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On April 15 2011 03:48 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:41 Hatorade wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're actually just going through and selectively picking out quotes out of context to suit your argument. All of these quotes were in responses to questions about the subject, and you forgot to mention the part where Tyler exhibits the same attitude he has at the moment saying protoss losses are on the protoss and he feels like all of the losses he's seen in major tournaments are the result of mistakes or poor play. some of the quotes are slightly out of context but none of them are drastically altered with context at all, they were whining about protoss albeit less outspokenly that idra was whether you like it or not and they *were* discussing balance.
Protoss whines about balance, doesn't get buffed, works it out themselves, and starts winning. Zerg whines about balance, expects a buff.
How is that fair? We worked out being UP, why can't you?
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On April 15 2011 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:
And MONDRAGON SAID BUILD ROACHES AGAINST VOID RAYS lollll.........
I don't know if that's what he's said, but that's what he did in one of his recent wins in a tournament ZvP matchup. He literally saw early stargate with void first, made nothing but roaches, and won by sheer volume of units.
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On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily.
no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran
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