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On April 15 2011 04:16 LastMan wrote:
observer and phoenix build time buff,
Came after we were pretty much comfortable with PvT, and of minimal import anyway.
medivac speed nerf, repair nerf,
Medivac nerf did almost nothing. Repair nerf was again after we were comfortable and also did nothing anyway.
stim nerf, bunker build time nerf
Bunkers were not an issue at all, stim nerf was recent - long after we became comfortable in the MU.
Yes there have been changes. There have been changes to P too. Zealot build time nerf, KA removal, void ray nerf etc. In neither case were they at all crucial to the change in the MU.
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Canada11607 Posts
On April 15 2011 04:16 LastMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:57 karpo wrote:On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran Yet protoss didn't get huge buffs against terran. Gateway units were considered trash back then, now many players stick with gateway units for a long time and do really well against terrans It was more of a revolution in play than patches solving the game. Idra and zergs just go straight to the patching solution, regardless of what anyone says the wins are due to luck and losses due to "cannot win, period". observer and phoenix build time buff, medivac speed nerf, repair nerf, stim nerf, bunker build time nerf
Stim nerfs came much after Protoss had figured out how to stop early terran pressure. Bunker build times are negilible, just something Blizzard likes to tinker with. As someone else said, force-field usage improved tenfold. You never saw people opening with 1 or 2 zealot and stalker with 6 sentries because didn't know how to use them properly.
All the other changes came after the terran timing push- observers would get into opponents base just before or after terran would attack. Not that useful for scouting if it's coming.
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On April 15 2011 03:55 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:
Ho my god please stop talking... Day9 best BW foreigner ? More likely nony or idra...
And MONDRAGON SAID BUILD ROACHES AGAINST VOID RAYS lollll......... Come on please, don't listen to day9 too much man, mondragon never said to build roach against void, sure i'm gonna counter mothership with ling lolmao..... Get back to earth, mondragon made this roach heavy build to counter zeerax build. Zeerax basically goes for voidray/colo/expand everygame. You have a serious issue with (not) reading the posts you reply to. I didn't say Day9 was the best BW foreigner, I said he was ONE OF the top foreign players while he competed (and that wasn't too long ago). I didn't say Mondragon said that you should build Roaches against a Stargate, I said that IF HE HAD SAID THAT people would be laughing it away the same way because he's "not a serious top player like Idra". Zeerax doesn't do that every game, and Mondragon didn't "make that build", his play in that game was completely reactionary. Try posting something relevant next time. Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:55 soupchicken wrote:
Has-been? Who is a better Zerg? I agree that he's not the cerebral player Talin was making him out to be, but Idra is still one of the best Zerg players in the world. He is most certainly not a has-been. You also have an issue with reading. I never said that, I said the exact opposite of that.
No he said himself countless time that he made this heavy roach build for zeerax, after watching and analysing his replay. But sorry if I misread you.
On April 15 2011 04:04 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:05 WhiteDog wrote:On April 14 2011 23:15 Defacer wrote:
I highly encourage all Zergs to watch Spanishiwa's stream. He will also be on the Day 9 Daily tonight.
There's still some aspects of his overall strategies that feel 'iffy', similar to Catz or Kiwikaki. But seriously, he's probably one of the most naturally gifted tactical players out there right now. He wins in situations that most Zergs consider 'unwinnable' right now.
Last night, he broke a line of 8 or 9 seige tanks with maybe 18 ling and a handful of banelings, by executing a great magic box spilt. In another game, he took out a three-base toss, despite being contained on two bases, by sending burrowed infestors to the tosses mineral lines and delaying his deathball. His games are full of these WTF moments.
Somehow, I understand IdrA's reaction with like everybody on the scene trying to telling the zerg how to play. Just ask Spanishiwa about balance, you think that because you saw him one time killing a bunch of tank with a handful of zergling he has the gold ticket for zerg's play ? Can I remind you that Catz, one of the most inventiv zerg, has already said that protoss is too good in this very forum, and has never gone as far as IdrA in tournaments. I want to see what Spanishiwa do in a big tournament like MLG, I'm pretty sure that, as good as he is, he will never go far with in infestor play and such, because one game is good, the problem with that kind of play is consistency. Like CatZ going for 200/200 muta, and every protoss saying: HEY THAT S THE COUNTER TO PROTOSS DEATH BALL... and then CatZ himself going in and saying: hello that was one game where I had the opportunity to go 200/200 because the protoss just did not scout, despite having the best scout tools in the game. IdrA himself has described Zerg as the reactionary race. Maybe a better description would be the improvisational race. While Zerg doesn't have the best units, they have the cheapest, most massable, least 'specialized' ones. Maybe Zerg just requires a different approach to the game, an benefits people like Spanishiwa or TLO or JulyZerg that like harass and making decisions on the fly. It doesn't make it imbalanced.
But yet, IdrA is still the foreign best zerg. TLO's zerg was a mistake and he got back to terran, spanishiwa is an unknown yet (sorry for the believers) and I have yet to see Julyzerg building ANY infestors/nydus.
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Im not gonna post about ZvP balance, but i think map pool change played a huge role in shifting balance of TvP... It really helps when u dont have 3 marauders knocking at your door before warp gate is done 
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8751 Posts
On April 15 2011 04:16 LastMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:57 karpo wrote:On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran Yet protoss didn't get huge buffs against terran. Gateway units were considered trash back then, now many players stick with gateway units for a long time and do really well against terrans It was more of a revolution in play than patches solving the game. Idra and zergs just go straight to the patching solution, regardless of what anyone says the wins are due to luck and losses due to "cannot win, period". observer and phoenix build time buff, medivac speed nerf, repair nerf, stim nerf, bunker build time nerf
here are the balance changes that happened when pvt was getting better (it was already getting better, and these changes helped it along in small ways)
GENERAL
Players can no longer block off ramps with two 2x2 buildings.
PROTOSS
Hallucination research time decreased from 110 to 80.
Observer
Cost decreased from 50/100 to 25/75.
Phoenix
Build time decreased from 45 to 35.
Void Ray
Now deals 20% more damage to massive targets.
Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed.
TERRAN
SCV
Repairing SCVs now assume the same threat priority as the unit they’re repairing.
SCV construction movement has been made more consistent.
hallucination no effect on pvt. phoenix build time a small effect (hit a little earlier timing with 1base phoenixes, which is kind of a joke strat anyway, and saves you 150/150 (the cost of an additional stargate) with late game phoenixes. wow!). observer cost change obviously saves you about 50/50 every game, but that's not big enough to make or break any timings. void ray change a huge negative for pvt, since speed void rays were actually really strong in pvt. scv repair change helpful for sure, but still small effect.
by the time 1.3 came (march 22) pvt was already fine. it's not hard to remember that everyone was looking at that patch saying "protoss is screwed now cuz of no KA". they absolutely were not like "pvt has been impossible and now we have some much needed changes to help us out!" stim and bunker changes make some pvt timings more powerful, but by march 22 we werent relying on that shit. just like i said with KA, yeah it's definitely worse but it wont change much for me personally. well, 1.3 also has some things that are better but wont change much
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I think what Terran / Zergs do wrong against protoss right now, they don't transition.
They build marauder / marine / medivac 30 minutes into the game.
Instead, if you can secure an advantage with those units, and then transition out of it.
Go Marauder marine tank raven banshee or something. Figure it out, get 3 or 4 bases, get the gas, and get heavy gas units.
It's like in bw. You make transitions to tech units.
I get a headache when Terran / Zerg thinks they can win 30 minutes in the game with roach hydra corrupter or marine marauder.
Get proper transitions out of your builds, and don't just sit back to 200/200 when the other one is turteling and getting high expensive units.
Best example is really Incontrol vs Ensnare in NASL
+ Show Spoiler +Ensnare was 3 to 2 bases, 120 to 80 supply or something (i dont have the proper numbers but he was WAY ahead). What is he doing? He gets a fourth, thats nice. But he keeps buildings mmm and adds viking / ghost to the mix. What do you think you're gonna do against a heavy upgrade, expensive high gas unit mix off of 3 base with your low tech?
Of course you get demolited.
If he would have transitioned at that point, get a fourth or even fith for the gas and starts building ghosts tanks and maybe even bcs into the mix, he would MAYBE lose the first fight, but he could sustain a new army with his income, incontrol not.
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lmao at this debate.
The recent "emergence" of Protoss just goes to show that balance can't be determined in a short time period.
Protoss didn't change significantly, Protoss players just learned how to play the race better.
Zerg players would do well to learn from this... even when Protoss were weaker you didn't hear Toss players whining as much as Zerg players.
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On April 15 2011 04:11 Whitewing wrote:
Hey guys: stop complaining about balance, and play the game.
Zerg can win, terran can win, protoss can win, what's the problem?
The problem is people don't realize that this is a STRATEGY game. Ever since the dawn of mankind, man have been devising strategies and tactics in order to kill each other. What I mean is that we are not going to figure ZvP out in such a short amount time, especially when the players' skill level is not maximum.
Also about ZvP, I'll share my limited knowledge, please take that with a grain of salt.
Have you noticed how Protoss players take advantage of the race's benefits, such as warpgate tech, and power units? I believe that Zerg players need to do the same and abuse their strengths. You know,
-the ability to perform uncanny tech switches,
-the ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units in no time,
-the unreal mobility and guerilla warfare tactics
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On April 15 2011 04:50 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:11 Whitewing wrote:
Hey guys: stop complaining about balance, and play the game.
Zerg can win, terran can win, protoss can win, what's the problem? The problem is people don't realize that this is a STRATEGY game. Ever since the dawn of mankind, man have been devising strategies and tactics in order to kill each other. What I mean is that we are not going to figure ZvP out in such a short amount time, especially when the players' skill level is not maximum. Also about ZvP, I'll share my limited knowledge, please take that with a grain of salt. Have you noticed how Protoss players take advantage of the race's benefits, such as warpgate tech, and power units? I believe that Zerg players need to do the same and abuse their strengths. You know, -the ability to perform uncanny tech switches, -the ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units in no time, -the unreal mobility and guerilla warfare tactics
And yet you don't understand the game from zerg point of view.
Tech switches = don't you understood yet that the problem is that protoss timing attack just negate any tech switches ? Muta are so good to harass, but try to go muta against a good enough toss.
Ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units that don't do shit against a ball.
Unreal mobility in smaller maps than SC1, with easier wall in, makes counter / zergling run by almost useless.
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On April 15 2011 04:33 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:16 LastMan wrote:On April 15 2011 03:57 karpo wrote:On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran Yet protoss didn't get huge buffs against terran. Gateway units were considered trash back then, now many players stick with gateway units for a long time and do really well against terrans It was more of a revolution in play than patches solving the game. Idra and zergs just go straight to the patching solution, regardless of what anyone says the wins are due to luck and losses due to "cannot win, period". observer and phoenix build time buff, medivac speed nerf, repair nerf, stim nerf, bunker build time nerf here are the balance changes that happened when pvt was getting better (it was already getting better, and these changes helped it along in small ways) GENERAL Players can no longer block off ramps with two 2x2 buildings. PROTOSS Hallucination research time decreased from 110 to 80. Observer Cost decreased from 50/100 to 25/75. Phoenix Build time decreased from 45 to 35. Void Ray Now deals 20% more damage to massive targets. Flux Vanes speed upgrade removed. TERRAN SCV Repairing SCVs now assume the same threat priority as the unit they’re repairing. SCV construction movement has been made more consistent. hallucination no effect on pvt. phoenix build time a small effect (hit a little earlier timing with 1base phoenixes, which is kind of a joke strat anyway, and saves you 150/150 (the cost of an additional stargate) with late game phoenixes. wow!). observer cost change obviously saves you about 50/50 every game, but that's not big enough to make or break any timings. void ray change a huge negative for pvt, since speed void rays were actually really strong in pvt. scv repair change helpful for sure, but still small effect. by the time 1.3 came (march 22) pvt was already fine. it's not hard to remember that everyone was looking at that patch saying "protoss is screwed now cuz of no KA". they absolutely were not like "pvt has been impossible and now we have some much needed changes to help us out!" stim and bunker changes make some pvt timings more powerful, but by march 22 we werent relying on that shit. just like i said with KA, yeah it's definitely worse but it wont change much for me personally. well, 1.3 also has some things that are better but wont change much
I'm sorry but you are comparing two completly different match up. PvT problem was against MM timing attack, but protoss never had any problem in late game.
We Zerg have problem with unscouted mid game timign attacks (6 gate, void ray/gateway army push/colossi timing push) and we have a problem end game, being completly dominated by superior army.
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On April 15 2011 04:37 Elefanto wrote:I think what Terran / Zergs do wrong against protoss right now, they don't transition. They build marauder / marine / medivac 30 minutes into the game. Instead, if you can secure an advantage with those units, and then transition out of it. Go Marauder marine tank raven banshee or something. Figure it out, get 3 or 4 bases, get the gas, and get heavy gas units. It's like in bw. You make transitions to tech units. I get a headache when Terran / Zerg thinks they can win 30 minutes in the game with roach hydra corrupter or marine marauder. Get proper transitions out of your builds, and don't just sit back to 200/200 when the other one is turteling and getting high expensive units. Best example is really Incontrol vs Ensnare in NASL + Show Spoiler +Ensnare was 3 to 2 bases, 120 to 80 supply or something (i dont have the proper numbers but he was WAY ahead). What is he doing? He gets a fourth, thats nice. But he keeps buildings mmm and adds viking / ghost to the mix. What do you think you're gonna do against a heavy upgrade, expensive high gas unit mix off of 3 base with your low tech?
Of course you get demolited.
If he would have transitioned at that point, get a fourth or even fith for the gas and starts building ghosts tanks and maybe even bcs into the mix, he would MAYBE lose the first fight, but he could sustain a new army with his income, incontrol not.
Actually, many Terrans are no longer doing pure MMM. There are several who are a bit behind the curve, but for the most part, my terran friends say that Bio+Mech or Mass Air are the "in" strategies these days. Bio was good before Toss's started figuring out ways around it. Now that Toss is in the dominant position in the matchup, Terrans are adapting to it.
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On April 15 2011 04:26 WhiteDog wrote:
and I have yet to see Julyzerg building ANY infestors/nydus.
And yet he's beaten the 4 of the last 5 protosses he's faced in GSL/GSTL: frozen, anypro, White-ra, and Huk. How is this possible?
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OH MY GOD I'm sooooooooooo mad. Even though I am only a casual diamond player, and they are professionals, I would like to present the following reasons why Tyler, Day[9], and InControl are completely wrong about balance:
- seriously, Tyler is too chill. How can you care about zerg if you're so chill
- Day[9] and Geoff only played zerg for like, their entire BW career. That's like nothing compared to the 9 months people have been playing zerg in SC2!!1!
- Idra is clearly the best zerg in the world (I mean, he acts like he is, so he HAS to be right!), so that's basically proof that zerg is broken. Until Idra is winning 100% of the time, the game is broken.
/sarcasm
haha okay seriously guys, great show this week! I think we all loved the BW nostalgia. You guys should totally do a SOTG BW King of The Hill on the next show, with Tyler, Sean, Geoff, and maybe a guest playing. Have JP & whoever isn't playing commentate while the other two guys duke it out. Trash talk would be a necessity since you'd all be on skype & probably listening to each other's builds anyway.
JP make it happen!
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All the zergs complaining about ZvP should go watch Sheth's stream, that guy's ZvP is insanely good. Apparently he knows something everyone else doesn't?
On April 15 2011 05:10 bentski wrote:
OH MY GOD I'm sooooooooooo mad. Even though I am only a casual diamond player, and they are professionals, I would like to present the following reasons why Tyler, Day[9], and InControl are completely wrong about balance:
- seriously, Tyler is too chill. How can you care about zerg if you're so chill
- Day[9] and Geoff only played zerg for like, their entire BW career. That's like nothing compared to the 9 months people have been playing zerg in SC2!!1!
- Idra is clearly the best zerg in the world (I mean, he acts like he is, so he HAS to be right!), so that's basically proof that zerg is broken. Until Idra is winning 100% of the time, the game is broken.
/sarcasm
haha okay seriously guys, great show this week! I think we all loved the BW nostalgia. You guys should totally do a SOTG BW King of The Hill on the next show, with Tyler, Sean, Geoff, and maybe a guest playing. Have JP & whoever isn't playing commentate while the other two guys duke it out. Trash talk would be a necessity since you'd all be on skype & probably listening to each other's builds anyway.
JP make it happen!
Omg, I would pay money to see a SOTG BW KOTH, it would be epic!
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On April 15 2011 04:59 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:50 AlBundy wrote:On April 15 2011 04:11 Whitewing wrote:
Hey guys: stop complaining about balance, and play the game.
Zerg can win, terran can win, protoss can win, what's the problem? The problem is people don't realize that this is a STRATEGY game. Ever since the dawn of mankind, man have been devising strategies and tactics in order to kill each other. What I mean is that we are not going to figure ZvP out in such a short amount time, especially when the players' skill level is not maximum. Also about ZvP, I'll share my limited knowledge, please take that with a grain of salt. Have you noticed how Protoss players take advantage of the race's benefits, such as warpgate tech, and power units? I believe that Zerg players need to do the same and abuse their strengths. You know, -the ability to perform uncanny tech switches, -the ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units in no time, -the unreal mobility and guerilla warfare tactics And yet you don't understand the game from zerg point of view. Tech switches = don't you understood yet that the problem is that protoss timing attack just negate any tech switches ? Muta are so good to harass, but try to go muta against a good enough toss. Ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units that don't do shit against a ball. Unreal mobility in smaller maps than SC1, with easier wall in, makes counter / zergling run by almost useless.
To add to this:
Tech switches also result in pitifully upgraded units versus a 3/3 army composition (maybe even 3/3/3, but P don't seem to do that much even lategame).
The masses of units can help if you force engagement properly, but often massing units backfires if you max on the wrong units (drones and roaches especially.
If anything it's the bigger maps that have been killing Zerg against Protoss. I don't think they realized that the easier it is for them to secure a 3rd, the easier it is for the Protoss too. And that third base is pivotal.
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Here i was, thinking "Oh sweet, the SOTG thread! Let's repeat the awesome jokes and laugh together".
What the hell is going on here.
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On April 15 2011 05:12 brum wrote:
Here i was, thinking "Oh sweet, the SOTG thread! Let's repeat the awesome jokes and laugh together".
What the hell is going on here.
A thread on the internet is not going the way I want it to? I better voice my displeasure and do nothing to steer the thread in the direction I would like.
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On April 15 2011 05:12 brum wrote:
Here i was, thinking "Oh sweet, the SOTG thread! Let's repeat the awesome jokes and laugh together".
What the hell is going on here.
Idra was on a couple weeks ago. It hasn't really cleared up since.
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On April 15 2011 05:16 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:12 brum wrote:
Here i was, thinking "Oh sweet, the SOTG thread! Let's repeat the awesome jokes and laugh together".
What the hell is going on here. Idra was on a couple weeks ago. It hasn't really cleared up since.
I propose an official moratorium on the debate.
Extended series style.
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On April 15 2011 05:12 brum wrote:
Here i was, thinking "Oh sweet, the SOTG thread! Let's repeat the awesome jokes and laugh together".
What the hell is going on here.
The best part of State of the Game is the Official thread. Actually, it's cool to argue with Tyler and Geoff on here. Nowhere else do you get to have a conversation with a pro. Also, you never know what to expect in here.
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EPT
