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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks"
What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan.
I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds?
It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations.
This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build:
On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information.
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On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan. I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds? It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information.
No offense to Tyler, but ViBE beat Tyler last night. I saw him stream it.
And. AND! ViBE did it by doing something new. Mass gas. He had 5 bases by the time Tyler took his third, which allowed ViBE to max out on Mutas pretty much instantly.
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On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan.
I think Tyler was referring specifically to those games... there are plenty of factors that make a player win or lose, not just the build order. Apart from that, Spanshwa and ViBe are both top players, but they are not really consistent -- otherwise they'd be winning tournaments -- so it's OK to question the particulars of each of their games.
This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information.
It won't be the first time a top gamer is wrong about the intrincacies of a particular build.. specially when other top gamers think otherwise and the game itself is far from being figured out.
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On April 15 2011 05:10 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:59 WhiteDog wrote:On April 15 2011 04:50 AlBundy wrote:On April 15 2011 04:11 Whitewing wrote:
Hey guys: stop complaining about balance, and play the game.
Zerg can win, terran can win, protoss can win, what's the problem? The problem is people don't realize that this is a STRATEGY game. Ever since the dawn of mankind, man have been devising strategies and tactics in order to kill each other. What I mean is that we are not going to figure ZvP out in such a short amount time, especially when the players' skill level is not maximum. Also about ZvP, I'll share my limited knowledge, please take that with a grain of salt. Have you noticed how Protoss players take advantage of the race's benefits, such as warpgate tech, and power units? I believe that Zerg players need to do the same and abuse their strengths. You know, -the ability to perform uncanny tech switches, -the ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units in no time, -the unreal mobility and guerilla warfare tactics And yet you don't understand the game from zerg point of view. Tech switches = don't you understood yet that the problem is that protoss timing attack just negate any tech switches ? Muta are so good to harass, but try to go muta against a good enough toss. Ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units that don't do shit against a ball. Unreal mobility in smaller maps than SC1, with easier wall in, makes counter / zergling run by almost useless. To add to this: Tech switches also result in pitifully upgraded units versus a 3/3 army composition (maybe even 3/3/3, but P don't seem to do that much even lategame). The masses of units can help if you force engagement properly, but often massing units backfires if you max on the wrong units (drones and roaches especially. If anything it's the bigger maps that have been killing Zerg against Protoss. I don't think they realized that the easier it is for them to secure a 3rd, the easier it is for the Protoss too. And that third base is pivotal.
This isn't a ZvP, it is a TvP, but the tech switch argument still applies. Nestea vs Goody game 1 in the TSL had Nestea sacrifice 40 supply of roaches and then almost immediately build a lot of corrupters so he can start going for broodlords. In other words, he did not just sit on roaches the whole game like a lot of zerg do, but made an active effort to change it up. This was the one game he won in the TSL by the way. So yes, a tech switch is very possible. If you want to see it for yourself, the relevant part starts 14:00.:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:
I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work.
Well I would guess he would know if they're trying because he plays against them on daily basis.
Unless if by trying you actually mean theorycrafting about it a bit and coming up with reasons why it would not work through pure introspection.
When somebody is trying to do something different or working on a different builds and timings, it's kind of easy to spot. That's how people got know Spanishiwa in the first place.
And I don't think Spanishiwa can really catch anyone "off guard" after all the publicity he got recently. If his "weird" strategies still work maybe it's because... they are actually viable? And even if that is not the case right now, it's not a very refined and explored style yet.
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Canada11363 Posts
On April 15 2011 05:04 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm sorry but you are comparing two completly different match up. PvT problem was against MM timing attack, but protoss never had any problem in late game.
We Zerg have problem with unscouted mid game timign attacks (6 gate, void ray/gateway army push/colossi timing push) and we have a problem end game, being completly dominated by superior army.
Not sure why that would make his point irrelevant. Obviously the specifics of what P and Z were struggling with are different. Was anyone arguing differently? Early in SC2, P was having difficulties with unscouted early game timing attacks and dieing before they even got to the end game. But they figured things out and the P struggles subsided. That's the comparison people are making- the figure things out with the tools you have.
I'm also cautious on arguments (from Idra) on how races are 'meant' to be played aka Zerg is supposed to be super defensive, reactionary and expands lots. Maybe, but playing how things are 'meant' to be played could be as great a hinderance.
If you read early game strategies and descriptions of SC1, Protoss was 'meant' to be really tough, expensive units that don't die. Turns out you churn through your army pretty quick and it's the Terran that has the most cost-effective army.
Maybe the race is 'meant' to be played like aggressively like July or some completely different Zerg style. Who knows? It's too early to tell how something is supposed to play.
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On April 15 2011 05:23 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan. I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds? It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. No offense to Tyler, but ViBE beat Tyler last night. I saw him stream it. And. AND! ViBE did it by doing something new. Mass gas. He had 5 bases by the time Tyler took his third, which allowed ViBE to max out on Mutas pretty much instantly.
I also saw that game, and you are leaving out the fact that tyler went carriers.
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On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:
It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations.
And you seem to be the stereotype defeatist zerg using pros as some kind of argument for balance.
Sure it can be frustrating to feel UP but it's always worse from your side. I've seen so many race/class changes in games where people think the other side has it easy. Most of the time people realize that it isn't that easy and you weren't really doing bad in the first place.
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On April 15 2011 05:36 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:10 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 15 2011 04:59 WhiteDog wrote:On April 15 2011 04:50 AlBundy wrote:On April 15 2011 04:11 Whitewing wrote:
Hey guys: stop complaining about balance, and play the game.
Zerg can win, terran can win, protoss can win, what's the problem? The problem is people don't realize that this is a STRATEGY game. Ever since the dawn of mankind, man have been devising strategies and tactics in order to kill each other. What I mean is that we are not going to figure ZvP out in such a short amount time, especially when the players' skill level is not maximum. Also about ZvP, I'll share my limited knowledge, please take that with a grain of salt. Have you noticed how Protoss players take advantage of the race's benefits, such as warpgate tech, and power units? I believe that Zerg players need to do the same and abuse their strengths. You know, -the ability to perform uncanny tech switches, -the ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units in no time, -the unreal mobility and guerilla warfare tactics And yet you don't understand the game from zerg point of view. Tech switches = don't you understood yet that the problem is that protoss timing attack just negate any tech switches ? Muta are so good to harass, but try to go muta against a good enough toss. Ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units that don't do shit against a ball. Unreal mobility in smaller maps than SC1, with easier wall in, makes counter / zergling run by almost useless. To add to this: Tech switches also result in pitifully upgraded units versus a 3/3 army composition (maybe even 3/3/3, but P don't seem to do that much even lategame). The masses of units can help if you force engagement properly, but often massing units backfires if you max on the wrong units (drones and roaches especially. If anything it's the bigger maps that have been killing Zerg against Protoss. I don't think they realized that the easier it is for them to secure a 3rd, the easier it is for the Protoss too. And that third base is pivotal. This isn't a ZvP, it is a TvP, but the tech switch argument still applies. Nestea vs Goody game 1 in the TSL had Nestea sacrifice 40 supply of roaches and then almost immediately build a lot of corrupters so he can start going for broodlords. In other words, he did not just sit on roaches the whole game like a lot of zerg do, but made an active effort to change it up. This was the one game he won in the TSL by the way. So yes, a tech switch is very possible. If you want to see it for yourself, the relevant part starts 14:00.: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enRj7sC6dHM
and how many games go on for that long? Anyone can switch tech once they have set it up and taken it that late into the game. Problem is getting there and any protoss / terran worth his salt will not sit on his laurels and let you get there easily.
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On April 15 2011 05:40 cronican wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:23 KevinIX wrote:On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan. I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds? It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. No offense to Tyler, but ViBE beat Tyler last night. I saw him stream it. And. AND! ViBE did it by doing something new. Mass gas. He had 5 bases by the time Tyler took his third, which allowed ViBE to max out on Mutas pretty much instantly. I also saw that game, and you are leaving out the fact that tyler went carriers.
Tyler could have won that game if he had had his gateway army + voidrays instead of so many phoenix. Guardian shield + the like 8 stalkers and 5 sentrys he had would have helped so much in that one big engagement.
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On April 15 2011 05:44 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:36 flowSthead wrote:On April 15 2011 05:10 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 15 2011 04:59 WhiteDog wrote:On April 15 2011 04:50 AlBundy wrote:On April 15 2011 04:11 Whitewing wrote:
Hey guys: stop complaining about balance, and play the game.
Zerg can win, terran can win, protoss can win, what's the problem? The problem is people don't realize that this is a STRATEGY game. Ever since the dawn of mankind, man have been devising strategies and tactics in order to kill each other. What I mean is that we are not going to figure ZvP out in such a short amount time, especially when the players' skill level is not maximum. Also about ZvP, I'll share my limited knowledge, please take that with a grain of salt. Have you noticed how Protoss players take advantage of the race's benefits, such as warpgate tech, and power units? I believe that Zerg players need to do the same and abuse their strengths. You know, -the ability to perform uncanny tech switches, -the ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units in no time, -the unreal mobility and guerilla warfare tactics And yet you don't understand the game from zerg point of view. Tech switches = don't you understood yet that the problem is that protoss timing attack just negate any tech switches ? Muta are so good to harass, but try to go muta against a good enough toss. Ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units that don't do shit against a ball. Unreal mobility in smaller maps than SC1, with easier wall in, makes counter / zergling run by almost useless. To add to this: Tech switches also result in pitifully upgraded units versus a 3/3 army composition (maybe even 3/3/3, but P don't seem to do that much even lategame). The masses of units can help if you force engagement properly, but often massing units backfires if you max on the wrong units (drones and roaches especially. If anything it's the bigger maps that have been killing Zerg against Protoss. I don't think they realized that the easier it is for them to secure a 3rd, the easier it is for the Protoss too. And that third base is pivotal. This isn't a ZvP, it is a TvP, but the tech switch argument still applies. Nestea vs Goody game 1 in the TSL had Nestea sacrifice 40 supply of roaches and then almost immediately build a lot of corrupters so he can start going for broodlords. In other words, he did not just sit on roaches the whole game like a lot of zerg do, but made an active effort to change it up. This was the one game he won in the TSL by the way. So yes, a tech switch is very possible. If you want to see it for yourself, the relevant part starts 14:00.: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enRj7sC6dHM and how many games go on for that long? Anyone can switch tech once they have set it up and taken it that late into the game. Problem is getting there and any protoss / terran worth his salt will not sit on his laurels and let you get there easily.
Wasn't the whole point that the Protoss deathball, which is a late game phenomenon, is unstoppable? Wasn't the whole point that Zergs can't win in the late game?
I honestly can't keep up with all of the weaknesses Zergs supposedly have. If I give an example where Zergs succeed at something, it is totally ignored and some other reason why it sucks is given. I don't buy the idea that Zergs now suddenly suck at early mid and late game all of a sudden.
No one likes the victim complex o_O.
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On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information.
I got another one for you: how can you argue that he's raising hypothetical questions and vague illustrations, then quote Lalush, who provides at most a "vague illustration" on why the tactic won't work? His quote amounts to saying the strategy won't work because "people compete [on the US server] to invent the most stupid strategies" and because it falls to people "feigning pressure and denying information". Pretty damn vague, not backed up by anything definite.
Here's a summary of what Tyler's questions were probably meant to illustrate: you can't make an assertion (Spanishwa's build doesn't work EVER) based on one sample size (game vs. InControl). Simple. He's not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, he's arguing for the sake of people who don't understand the factors that can go into wins and losses, which are numa-numa-numerous, oftentimes wayyy beyond the scope of balance discussions, which people focus too much on in certain scenarios - even in scenarios in which balance may not have been a defining factor - precisely because they're looking for ammo in discussions like these.
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On April 15 2011 05:23 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan. I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds? It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. No offense to Tyler, but ViBE beat Tyler last night. I saw him stream it. And. AND! ViBE did it by doing something new. Mass gas. He had 5 bases by the time Tyler took his third, which allowed ViBE to max out on Mutas pretty much instantly.
protoss losing to mass muta is not new 
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On April 15 2011 05:49 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:44 Madkipz wrote:On April 15 2011 05:36 flowSthead wrote:On April 15 2011 05:10 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 15 2011 04:59 WhiteDog wrote:On April 15 2011 04:50 AlBundy wrote:On April 15 2011 04:11 Whitewing wrote:
Hey guys: stop complaining about balance, and play the game.
Zerg can win, terran can win, protoss can win, what's the problem? The problem is people don't realize that this is a STRATEGY game. Ever since the dawn of mankind, man have been devising strategies and tactics in order to kill each other. What I mean is that we are not going to figure ZvP out in such a short amount time, especially when the players' skill level is not maximum. Also about ZvP, I'll share my limited knowledge, please take that with a grain of salt. Have you noticed how Protoss players take advantage of the race's benefits, such as warpgate tech, and power units? I believe that Zerg players need to do the same and abuse their strengths. You know, -the ability to perform uncanny tech switches, -the ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units in no time, -the unreal mobility and guerilla warfare tactics And yet you don't understand the game from zerg point of view. Tech switches = don't you understood yet that the problem is that protoss timing attack just negate any tech switches ? Muta are so good to harass, but try to go muta against a good enough toss. Ability to mass an unbelievable amount of units that don't do shit against a ball. Unreal mobility in smaller maps than SC1, with easier wall in, makes counter / zergling run by almost useless. To add to this: Tech switches also result in pitifully upgraded units versus a 3/3 army composition (maybe even 3/3/3, but P don't seem to do that much even lategame). The masses of units can help if you force engagement properly, but often massing units backfires if you max on the wrong units (drones and roaches especially. If anything it's the bigger maps that have been killing Zerg against Protoss. I don't think they realized that the easier it is for them to secure a 3rd, the easier it is for the Protoss too. And that third base is pivotal. This isn't a ZvP, it is a TvP, but the tech switch argument still applies. Nestea vs Goody game 1 in the TSL had Nestea sacrifice 40 supply of roaches and then almost immediately build a lot of corrupters so he can start going for broodlords. In other words, he did not just sit on roaches the whole game like a lot of zerg do, but made an active effort to change it up. This was the one game he won in the TSL by the way. So yes, a tech switch is very possible. If you want to see it for yourself, the relevant part starts 14:00.: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enRj7sC6dHM and how many games go on for that long? Anyone can switch tech once they have set it up and taken it that late into the game. Problem is getting there and any protoss / terran worth his salt will not sit on his laurels and let you get there easily. Wasn't the whole point that the Protoss deathball, which is a late game phenomenon, is unstoppable? Wasn't the whole point that Zergs can't win in the late game? I honestly can't keep up with all of the weaknesses Zergs supposedly have. If I give an example where Zergs succeed at something, it is totally ignored and some other reason why it sucks is given. I don't buy the idea that Zergs now suddenly suck at early mid and late game all of a sudden. No one likes the victim complex o_O.
Idra does it alot. If a zerg is doing well it's either because his opponents are giving the games away or that the zerg is just lucky being seeded against bad players (Nestea/Fruitdealer). It can NEVER EVER be that zerg could have a successive couple of games.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 15 2011 05:41 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:
It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations.
And you seem to be the stereotype zerg whiner using pros as some kind of argument for balance. Your blog leads to a old rant post where you say you'd rather play with your own shit than play SC2, what happened? Why spend time here posting about protoss being imbalanced in a game that you yourself say is worse than shit. Grow up man.
Dude that was my few days playing in the early beta (LOOK at the date for god sakes) I was in love with broodwar then and it was a nostalgic moment of sorts. Since then I have fallen in love with sc2 (even with all the shortcomings).
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I don't think Zerg is necessary weaker in terms of units, I think Zerg players just have to do more stuff - because Terran and Protoss players can queue stuff, it makes it easier to macro and keep your money low while with Zerg you have to constantly check for larvae as well as checking the map to play your reactionary style (assuming you play that way).
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On April 15 2011 05:54 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:41 karpo wrote:On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:
It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations.
And you seem to be the stereotype zerg whiner using pros as some kind of argument for balance. Your blog leads to a old rant post where you say you'd rather play with your own shit than play SC2, what happened? Why spend time here posting about protoss being imbalanced in a game that you yourself say is worse than shit. Grow up man. Dude that was my few days playing in the early beta (LOOK at the date for god sakes) I was in love with broodwar then and it was a nostalgic moment of sorts. Since then I have fallen in love with sc2 (even with all the shortcomings).
I did edit that part away. Just so tired of the constant whine about zerg, seing that blog didn't really add to the impression. I guess everyone can have a bad day. 
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On April 15 2011 05:38 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:04 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm sorry but you are comparing two completly different match up. PvT problem was against MM timing attack, but protoss never had any problem in late game.
We Zerg have problem with unscouted mid game timign attacks (6 gate, void ray/gateway army push/colossi timing push) and we have a problem end game, being completly dominated by superior army. Not sure why that would make his point irrelevant. Obviously the specifics of what P and Z were struggling with are different. Was anyone arguing differently? Early in SC2, P was having difficulties with unscouted early game timing attacks and dieing before they even got to the end game. But they figured things out and the P struggles subsided. That's the comparison people are making- the figure things out with the tools you have. I'm also cautious on arguments (from Idra) on how races are 'meant' to be played aka Zerg is supposed to be super defensive, reactionary and expands lots. Maybe, but playing how things are 'meant' to be played could be as great a hinderance. If you read early game strategies and descriptions of SC1, Protoss was 'meant' to be really tough, expensive units that don't die. Turns out you churn through your army pretty quick and it's the Terran that has the most cost-effective army. Maybe the race is 'meant' to be played like aggressively like July or some completely different Zerg style. Who knows? It's too early to tell how something is supposed to play.
If late game things are even and you get destroyed by early tactics/harass, everything is about how you can taylor a build order/refine it/improve your defence/sim city/manage to find some timing to harass/attack and make your opponent stay in his base. All that of course so that you can go/reach the end game in a good enough shape.
Having an inferiority during almost the entire game is very different.
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On April 15 2011 05:55 Cranberries wrote:
I don't think Zerg is necessary weaker in terms of units, I think Zerg players just have to do more stuff - because Terran and Protoss players can queue stuff, it makes it easier to macro and keep your money low while with Zerg you have to constantly check for larvae as well as checking the map to play your reactionary style (assuming you play that way).
Queuing artificially keeps your money low. Your money isn't actually low when you queue a lot. So your argument kinda fails when it's very basis is wrong.
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I honestly think talking about balance on SOTG at this point is just a bad idea. Everyone has their opinions and thoughts, but considering how there isn't an equal spread of the 3 races so the discussion is always going to lean towards one side.
Instead, I think SOTG should focus on new upcoming builds, certain strats, but not necessarily balance. (This is just my opinion)
Idk, this week was pretty depressing. It sounded like Incontrol and Tyler were trying to convince someone that wasn't even on the show or something about balance, and Day9 was rambling again about mass infestor/etc.
Either get 1 terran, 1 zerg, 1 protoss (or two, if we don't want to remove tyler/geoff <3) or honestly, just stop talking about balance
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EPT
