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I could read this discussion with a more serious face if Tyler wouldn't be the only person here I can trust that aren't talking completely out of their ass. Just random forums posters arguing and throwing random facts.
Like someone suggested. I would take the offer to give zerg 1 supply 2 armor roaches just to shut them up.
It's almost silly how 80% of threads become a balance discussion 
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On April 15 2011 07:11 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 06:50 1Eris1 wrote:On April 15 2011 06:46 karpo wrote:On April 15 2011 06:31 syllogism wrote:
Should just bring back 1 supply 2 armor roaches and let the protoss keep opening doors for a few years. Surely Tyler wouldn't have an issue with it as, just like now, players didn't have time to come up with new builds to deal with it. Yeah like it's anywhere near as imbalanced as that. A race using one single unit isn't really comparable to a 40/60 % winrate skew in favor of protoss for a month. :D Except the point is it wouldn't necessarily be like that now. No one was using mass sentry vs roaches, there were different maps, builds hadn't been figured out etc. If you can't see the huge flaw in basic game design with 1 supply roach i guess it's no use even trying. What i'm saying is that there's a difference between a slightly skewed win/loss ratio between races and one race massing a single unit cause it's just that much better than everything else. It's a question about high end PvZ balance versus a mistake in the basic game design. As a protoss player i would say the same thing if stalkers were broken in the beta in the same way as roaches, a race massing one unit is detrimental to the game both for players and as a esport.
Having them at 2 supply is also kinda silly. 1.5 pls =)
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What Tyler said is so true rofl.
I can only imagine what little hope there is for Zerg if IdrA, a player who was complaining about Terran in Broodwar, is chosen as their Martyr.
Broodwar Scourge vs Dropship comparison was pretty eye opening. Not going to lie, the cast was pretty awful at the start this week but the end made it worth it.
I could read this discussion with a more serious face if Tyler wouldn't be the only person here I can trust that aren't talking completely out of their ass. Just random forums posters arguing and throwing random facts.
It has always been that way, the people who complain the most in forums rarely tend to be the people who are playing this game at the highest levels, almost always it is people with very little understanding of the game, but feel as if they do just because they listen to someone like IdrA complain. What IdrA said about forcefields at MLG was almost completely in a different tangent to what all the people who were complaining about in those forcefields threads after July vs MC, but even that big of a disconnect doesn't stop people
You don't get much here, it is either listen to Tyler, a veteran of this game and Broodwar (and who was chill as a cucumber during the "dark ages" for Protoss in SC:2--I seriously haven't heard that guy ever cry about balance) or listen to some diamond league Zerg who is convinced this game is broken and everything that somehow makes their life difficult (even though they play less than 10 games a week) should be nerfed.
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I don't think it's fair to use Broodwar as an example of SC2 "balance" issues, minly because people are far, far more aware of the 'RTS' terminology, and mindset, than what was aware when Broodwar was newly released.
People have said here that the terms "imbalance" never existed back in BWs creation: in this scenario, I can only imagine "build orders", "counters", "macro/micro play" were all foreign terms too. However that's not to say I think the game is balanced... I think Zerg just has to do more things than Protoss/Terran do and while the units may be the same strength, or whatever, because Zerg has to do much more than Protoss/Terran it ultimately makes Zerg harder to play, possibly less enjoyable, but overall weaker - not necessarily because of unit strength, but because of the difficulty of the race.
Watching IdrA's stream - seeing him on 4 hatches with 3 queens and each queen having 40+ energy (after injecting): that itself weakens the Zerg army, it's akin to a Protoss never using Chrono Boost, or a Terran never dropping mules/scans.
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On April 15 2011 07:26 Piski wrote:Like someone suggested. I would take the offer to give zerg 1 supply 2 armor roaches just to shut them up. It's almost silly how 80% of threads become a balance discussion
Man, I'd take that offer as well.
The worst thing is, it's not even a discussion. There are people who "discuss" imbalance (and would discuss it even with thin air if nobody is replying), and then there are people who just want to make... it... end...
I agree with everything. Just make it end.
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On April 15 2011 06:46 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan. I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds? It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. Fuck I hope you are hands are just really oily and you accidentally hit all the wrong keys. Knowing someone's skill level is an epistemological problem. How do we define skill? How do we measure its level? We can't answer those questions. We do know that winning more games indicates higher skill. We do know that there are dozens of factors going into whether or not a player wins a game. So if somehow we knew two players were equally skilled in every possible way, but then we had one of them play spanishiwa's style and the other one play standard zerg style, which one would win more? That is a question that is being debated here. Which style is actually better right now? Someone was fucking up that discussion by implying that if spanishiwa's style was indeed better, then we'd see him beating all the top players all the time. If IdrA is a much better player than spanishiwa, and they were getting the same win rates, but idra was playing standard style and spanishiwa was playing spanishiwa style, then we'd have a pretty damn good reason to think spanishiwa style is better, even though they win the same amount. If IdrA is way better, and he also wins more, but not much more, then we still might think spanishiwa style is better, since his style is being handicapped by being in the hands of a worse player. Can you not comprehend why I can't go watch a dozen spanishiwa games and know his skill level? And why I can't take this argument an extra step? Your vague questions aren't making any point. You read something and didn't comprehend it and assumed there was nothing there to comprehend.
I'm not sure I understand the point your making. I might not be able to watch a dozen spanishiwa reps and know his skill level. But if you gave me 30 or so games of him against players of various skills, I could certainly make a judgment on how good he is. I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make when you talk about the difficulty one might have in defining skill, but I could certainly, for example, tell whether he could could win the GSL, compete in the GSL, win an MLG, get out of the open bracket in the MLG, and the like.
Edit: Maybe the point you're trying to make is that we can't know if Spanishiwa's build works at a high level because he's not playing at a high level. If so, I agree. But we also don't know for sure whether pure air mass spine crawler works, or mass drones works, because there's nobody doing that at high level either.
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Did anyone else hear Sheth say on his stream that he thinks balance isn't perfect, but nothing is too imbalanced or boken? Golly gee, top Zerg players sure all have the same opinions on balance.
Oh wait...that last one doesn't seem right...
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On April 15 2011 08:01 flowSthead wrote:
Did anyone else hear Sheth say on his stream that he thinks balance isn't perfect, but nothing is too imbalanced or boken? Golly gee, top Zerg players sure all have the same opinions on balance.
Oh wait...that last one doesn't seem right...
Yeah but he's Sheth, he wouldn't talk about imbalance even if colossi were 2 supply and couldn't be hit by AA ^^
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On April 15 2011 07:21 Psychlone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 07:17 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 15 2011 07:14 Psychlone wrote:
Can we really stop using Mondragon as an example? We saw two ZvP's from him, against a guy that didn't even build units for like half the game. I think we were already aware if you don't build units then roaches are pretty good
I just think roaches suck vs P in general except in very niche roles (drop or early push to kill sentries). I am appalled that Zerg's keep massing them and still expect to win with hydra-roach corruptor when it is so cost-ineffective. I think the poor performance of Zerg players recently is mostly attributed to using them too much. What would you suggest as an alternative? No other zerg ground unit can weather the fiery pew pew lasers of the colossus... I usually beat Colossus based Protoss when I don't play terrible using Muck's build.
Can you explain what that is? I've never heard of it ^^ but I'm genuinely intrigued
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On April 15 2011 08:04 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 08:01 flowSthead wrote:
Did anyone else hear Sheth say on his stream that he thinks balance isn't perfect, but nothing is too imbalanced or boken? Golly gee, top Zerg players sure all have the same opinions on balance.
Oh wait...that last one doesn't seem right... Yeah but he's Sheth, he wouldn't talk about imbalance even if colossi were 2 supply and couldn't be hit by AA ^^
he was most certaintly bringing it up though in his game vs pokebunny i think on shattered temple. that is zvt balance, but he was mostly just joking around. (this was on his stream.)
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On April 15 2011 06:46 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Knowing someone's skill level is an epistemological problem. How do we define skill? How do we measure its level? We can't answer those questions. We do know that winning more games indicates higher skill. We do know that there are dozens of factors going into whether or not a player wins a game. So if somehow we knew two players were equally skilled in every possible way, but then we had one of them play spanishiwa's style and the other one play standard zerg style, which one would win more? That is a question that is being debated here. Which style is actually better right now? Someone was fucking up that discussion by implying that if spanishiwa's style was indeed better, then we'd see him beating all the top players all the time.
Your vague questions aren't making any point. You read something and didn't comprehend it and assumed there was nothing there to comprehend.
<3
People assuming that other people are stupid just because they're too stupid to understand their argument, or because they don't know the actual meaning of words, has to be one of my all time pet peeves.
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On April 15 2011 07:44 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 06:46 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan. I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds? It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. Fuck I hope you are hands are just really oily and you accidentally hit all the wrong keys. Knowing someone's skill level is an epistemological problem. How do we define skill? How do we measure its level? We can't answer those questions. We do know that winning more games indicates higher skill. We do know that there are dozens of factors going into whether or not a player wins a game. So if somehow we knew two players were equally skilled in every possible way, but then we had one of them play spanishiwa's style and the other one play standard zerg style, which one would win more? That is a question that is being debated here. Which style is actually better right now? Someone was fucking up that discussion by implying that if spanishiwa's style was indeed better, then we'd see him beating all the top players all the time. If IdrA is a much better player than spanishiwa, and they were getting the same win rates, but idra was playing standard style and spanishiwa was playing spanishiwa style, then we'd have a pretty damn good reason to think spanishiwa style is better, even though they win the same amount. If IdrA is way better, and he also wins more, but not much more, then we still might think spanishiwa style is better, since his style is being handicapped by being in the hands of a worse player. Can you not comprehend why I can't go watch a dozen spanishiwa games and know his skill level? And why I can't take this argument an extra step? Your vague questions aren't making any point. You read something and didn't comprehend it and assumed there was nothing there to comprehend. I'm not sure I understand the point your making. I might not be able to watch a dozen spanishiwa reps and know his skill level. But if you gave me 30 or so games of him against players of various skills, I could certainly make a judgment on how good he is. I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make when you talk about the difficulty one might have in defining skill, but I could certainly, for example, tell whether he could could win the GSL, compete in the GSL, win an MLG, get out of the open bracket in the MLG, and the like. Edit: Maybe the point you're trying to make is that we can't know if Spanishiwa's build works at a high level because he's not playing at a high level. If so, I agree. But we also don't know for sure whether pure air mass spine crawler works, or mass drones works, because there's nobody doing that at high level either.
The point is that there are two unknowns: Spanishiwa's skill and Spanishiwa's style. A player's skill is a hard thing to solidify, because different people use different styles. This problem is compounded if that player is stylistically unique. If the player has played at least a few standard games then you could see the difference of his execution with professional players' executions of that same exact build, and noting his skill level is much easier. We don't have that.
Say Spanishiwa played 100 games with his unique style, and won 40% of those games. Then Idra plays 100 games against the same people with standard style, and wins 50% of those games. Is it that Spanishiwa is less skilled? Or is it that his style is worse? (Or is it that the players got amped up to win their next match after losing to Spanishiwa?... but we'll ignore that for now) We haven't established one or the other, so we can't say. There is no control in this experiment. Watching VODs doesn't help because Spanishiwa is playing Spanishiwa style in those VODs. Until we see Spanishiwa play lots of standard style, or get someone else* to play Spanishiwa style (and use it in a good number of games to minimize pseudo-random factors such as player having a bad day or whatever) we can't say definitely: "oh, because Spanishiwa playing with this style lost to someone, it must be that the style is bad"; it could be just that Spanishiwa lost because Spanishiwa is bad at executing his build, which is actually really, really good.
*someone who has played a lot of different games against different people in the sc2 scene, so that we can measure, or at least estimate, his skill.
edited for clarity
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On April 15 2011 07:41 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 07:26 Piski wrote:Like someone suggested. I would take the offer to give zerg 1 supply 2 armor roaches just to shut them up. It's almost silly how 80% of threads become a balance discussion Man, I'd take that offer as well. The worst thing is, it's not even a discussion. There are people who "discuss" imbalance (and would discuss it even with thin air if nobody is replying), and then there are people who just want to make... it... end... I agree with everything. Just make it end.
Trust me, you would not want that.
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11589 Posts
On April 15 2011 07:44 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 06:46 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan. I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds? It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. Fuck I hope you are hands are just really oily and you accidentally hit all the wrong keys. Knowing someone's skill level is an epistemological problem. How do we define skill? How do we measure its level? We can't answer those questions. We do know that winning more games indicates higher skill. We do know that there are dozens of factors going into whether or not a player wins a game. So if somehow we knew two players were equally skilled in every possible way, but then we had one of them play spanishiwa's style and the other one play standard zerg style, which one would win more? That is a question that is being debated here. Which style is actually better right now? Someone was fucking up that discussion by implying that if spanishiwa's style was indeed better, then we'd see him beating all the top players all the time. If IdrA is a much better player than spanishiwa, and they were getting the same win rates, but idra was playing standard style and spanishiwa was playing spanishiwa style, then we'd have a pretty damn good reason to think spanishiwa style is better, even though they win the same amount. If IdrA is way better, and he also wins more, but not much more, then we still might think spanishiwa style is better, since his style is being handicapped by being in the hands of a worse player. Can you not comprehend why I can't go watch a dozen spanishiwa games and know his skill level? And why I can't take this argument an extra step? Your vague questions aren't making any point. You read something and didn't comprehend it and assumed there was nothing there to comprehend. I'm not sure I understand the point your making. I might not be able to watch a dozen spanishiwa reps and know his skill level. But if you gave me 30 or so games of him against players of various skills, I could certainly make a judgment on how good he is. I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make when you talk about the difficulty one might have in defining skill, but I could certainly, for example, tell whether he could could win the GSL, compete in the GSL, win an MLG, get out of the open bracket in the MLG, and the like. Edit: Maybe the point you're trying to make is that we can't know if Spanishiwa's build works at a high level because he's not playing at a high level. If so, I agree. But we also don't know for sure whether pure air mass spine crawler works, or mass drones works, because there's nobody doing that at high level either.
No, he's talking about this from a strictly logical perspective. Even by watching replays, you can't really know how good Spanishiwa, and by extension his build, is unless you have replays of a "normal" Zerg player (his example was IdrA) playing against the exact same competition that played the exact same way and compared the results. In fact, you'd actually have to start with IdrA and Spanishiwa playing the SAME style against the same opponent's that did the exact same thing, and compare their skill levels, and then compare those results to the results of the "test" you did earlier.
Essentially, this situation is impossible, because players do not play the exact same way every game. We can get a "feel" for how good Spanishiwa is on his own by watching his games, but that doesn't help us make any meaningful comparisons to any other Zerg player because there's no constant between the two. It is an epistemological problem, because the knowledge we need is unobtainable in the common setting of the ladder + tournaments. You'd need the full cooperation of IdrA, Spanishiwa, maybe a couple other Zergs, and then a bunch of Protoss who all played the exact same style every game that had scientifically measurable skill as well.
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On April 15 2011 08:08 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 07:21 Psychlone wrote:On April 15 2011 07:17 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 15 2011 07:14 Psychlone wrote:
Can we really stop using Mondragon as an example? We saw two ZvP's from him, against a guy that didn't even build units for like half the game. I think we were already aware if you don't build units then roaches are pretty good
I just think roaches suck vs P in general except in very niche roles (drop or early push to kill sentries). I am appalled that Zerg's keep massing them and still expect to win with hydra-roach corruptor when it is so cost-ineffective. I think the poor performance of Zerg players recently is mostly attributed to using them too much. What would you suggest as an alternative? No other zerg ground unit can weather the fiery pew pew lasers of the colossus... I usually beat Colossus based Protoss when I don't play terrible using Muck's build. Can you explain what that is? I've never heard of it ^^ but I'm genuinely intrigued
It´s basically Ling Baneling midgame transitioning into Infestor/ultra in late game.
I am doing that too and i think it works really well.(Baneling dropps on probelines is soooo much fun =D).
But be warned it´s even more difficult to execute than doing multiprong roach attackes because you have to really keep up with larvae production.
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8748 Posts
On April 15 2011 07:44 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 06:46 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan. I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds? It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. Fuck I hope you are hands are just really oily and you accidentally hit all the wrong keys. Knowing someone's skill level is an epistemological problem. How do we define skill? How do we measure its level? We can't answer those questions. We do know that winning more games indicates higher skill. We do know that there are dozens of factors going into whether or not a player wins a game. So if somehow we knew two players were equally skilled in every possible way, but then we had one of them play spanishiwa's style and the other one play standard zerg style, which one would win more? That is a question that is being debated here. Which style is actually better right now? Someone was fucking up that discussion by implying that if spanishiwa's style was indeed better, then we'd see him beating all the top players all the time. If IdrA is a much better player than spanishiwa, and they were getting the same win rates, but idra was playing standard style and spanishiwa was playing spanishiwa style, then we'd have a pretty damn good reason to think spanishiwa style is better, even though they win the same amount. If IdrA is way better, and he also wins more, but not much more, then we still might think spanishiwa style is better, since his style is being handicapped by being in the hands of a worse player. Can you not comprehend why I can't go watch a dozen spanishiwa games and know his skill level? And why I can't take this argument an extra step? Your vague questions aren't making any point. You read something and didn't comprehend it and assumed there was nothing there to comprehend. I'm not sure I understand the point your making. I might not be able to watch a dozen spanishiwa reps and know his skill level. But if you gave me 30 or so games of him against players of various skills, I could certainly make a judgment on how good he is. I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make when you talk about the difficulty one might have in defining skill, but I could certainly, for example, tell whether he could could win the GSL, compete in the GSL, win an MLG, get out of the open bracket in the MLG, and the like. Edit: Maybe the point you're trying to make is that we can't know if Spanishiwa's build works at a high level because he's not playing at a high level. If so, I agree. But we also don't know for sure whether pure air mass spine crawler works, or mass drones works, because there's nobody doing that at high level either.
I haven't tried to go beyond answering Mailing's question, though I'm sure I incidentally went off on some tangents that widened the scope a bit. As a reminder, here's his question: If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players?
My answer to that was that there's more to winning and losing than the general style of play. Maybe Spanishiwa isn't good enough to make the best style of play in the world work at the highest level. Even if the best player in the world 5 years from now came back from the future and gave him a summary of how zergs are playing, he still would not beat top players. Going by your basic brackets of skill, I'm sure you can see how if you told someone who is good enough to get out of an open bracket of MLG something like "in ZvP, get gas really late in the early game, with lots of queens and drones, but then get as much gas as you can in the mid game, use nydus a lot, and drop harass a lot, banelings, infestors, ultras in late game" then he wouldn't suddenly be able to win GSL with that knowledge. There is a ridiculously high amount of skill needed to execute at that level. And there's a ridiculous amount of focused practiced needed, with the right kind of analytical mind to turn vague concepts into refined builds and tactics, so that you've got practical knowledge on how to play it. In my door analogy, this would just be like knowing what door has the food, but still being unable to open the door. Or taking months to open the door.
Is it not obvious that if you "played Protoss correctly" and Jaedong totally fucked around and did the stupidest shit possible with Zerg, he would still win? The relevant judgment of skill that you are required to make here is if you told a person of Spanishiwa's skill level how to play Zerg correctly would he be one of the best Zerg players in the world (regularly beating top players). I think if you watched 20 of his games, you'd probably say no. If you were being generous, you'd say "I don't know." He'd have to be ridiculously impressive in order for you to confidently say "yes" but that's what Mailing requires. My arguments have just been explaining why it's very reasonable and likely for us to say "no" or "I don't know."
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As one of the guys that brought up Spanishiwa's Zerg on this thread, I just want to clarify that I don't think Spanishiwa is the end-all-be-all of Zerg, or that his style is even suited for tournament play.
I was just responding to complaints related to the imbalance discussion: that tactics such as Nydus and drop harass aren't viable or successful, or that it's impossible to win with mass queens, or infestors, and that Day9, InControl or Tyler are talking out of their asses.
Spanishiwa has proven, time and time again, that yes ... you can beat a three base protoss with infestors, lings and banelings. Or consistently and successfully nydus your opponent. Or defend four gate with slow lings and four queens.
While the sturdiness or reliability of Spanishiwa play style might be debatable, he's proven through exploration that there's still a lot of potential with zerg and the way the race is designed, and that some of his more unorthodox tactics might be worth looking at more seriously.
For example, If you can win mass infestors consistently, than perhaps there's enough potential there to develop an entire build and gameplan around it.
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On April 15 2011 08:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 07:44 -_- wrote:On April 15 2011 06:46 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 05:21 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 03:56 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 02:39 Mailing wrote:On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played -- If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year First, they are beating top players. Second, we don't know anything about their skill level. Maybe if they were playing zerg like everyone else, they'd be nobodies, not even in the top 200. Maybe incontrol beats spanishiwa because..... incontrol is a better player? WTF?!?!?! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN????? Spanishiwa's general gameplan was better than other zergs' general gameplans but incontrol had better execution? His build order was more refined because he's been doing it for months and spanishiwa improvised? Spanishiwa would have won on other maps and in other positions but not in this instance? This could go on forever. There's way too much other shit going on than "spanishiwa did this sort of thing, inc played standard, spanishiwa failed miserably so i guess that sort of thing sucks" What are you talking about, How and why would you assume that no one knows about their skill level (LOL). There are many replays and vods of both vibe and spansihwa. If you took the time to watch the replays you will know both about their execution as well as game-plan. I can also come up with vague questions: how do you know top zerg haven't tried that and found it doesn't' work. how do you know if spanswha's wins by catching opponents offguard with weird strategies. how do you know if spansiwas build can stand up to most protoss builds? It feels more and more like you are arguing just to argue by raising all these hypothetical questions and vague illustrations. This is what Lalush had to say to spanishwa's build: On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. Fuck I hope you are hands are just really oily and you accidentally hit all the wrong keys. Knowing someone's skill level is an epistemological problem. How do we define skill? How do we measure its level? We can't answer those questions. We do know that winning more games indicates higher skill. We do know that there are dozens of factors going into whether or not a player wins a game. So if somehow we knew two players were equally skilled in every possible way, but then we had one of them play spanishiwa's style and the other one play standard zerg style, which one would win more? That is a question that is being debated here. Which style is actually better right now? Someone was fucking up that discussion by implying that if spanishiwa's style was indeed better, then we'd see him beating all the top players all the time. If IdrA is a much better player than spanishiwa, and they were getting the same win rates, but idra was playing standard style and spanishiwa was playing spanishiwa style, then we'd have a pretty damn good reason to think spanishiwa style is better, even though they win the same amount. If IdrA is way better, and he also wins more, but not much more, then we still might think spanishiwa style is better, since his style is being handicapped by being in the hands of a worse player. Can you not comprehend why I can't go watch a dozen spanishiwa games and know his skill level? And why I can't take this argument an extra step? Your vague questions aren't making any point. You read something and didn't comprehend it and assumed there was nothing there to comprehend. I'm not sure I understand the point your making. I might not be able to watch a dozen spanishiwa reps and know his skill level. But if you gave me 30 or so games of him against players of various skills, I could certainly make a judgment on how good he is. I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make when you talk about the difficulty one might have in defining skill, but I could certainly, for example, tell whether he could could win the GSL, compete in the GSL, win an MLG, get out of the open bracket in the MLG, and the like. Edit: Maybe the point you're trying to make is that we can't know if Spanishiwa's build works at a high level because he's not playing at a high level. If so, I agree. But we also don't know for sure whether pure air mass spine crawler works, or mass drones works, because there's nobody doing that at high level either. I haven't tried to go beyond answering Mailing's question, though I'm sure I incidentally went off on some tangents that widened the scope a bit. As a reminder, here's his question: If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players? My answer to that was that there's more to winning and losing than the general style of play. Maybe Spanishiwa isn't good enough to make the best style of play in the world work at the highest level. Even if the best player in the world 5 years from now came back from the future and gave him a summary of how zergs are playing, he still would not beat top players. Going by your basic brackets of skill, I'm sure you can see how if you told someone who is good enough to get out of an open bracket of MLG something like "in ZvP, get gas really late in the early game, with lots of queens and drones, but then get as much gas as you can in the mid game, use nydus a lot, and drop harass a lot, banelings, infestors, ultras in late game" then he wouldn't suddenly be able to win GSL with that knowledge. There is a ridiculously high amount of skill needed to execute at that level. And there's a ridiculous amount of focused practiced needed, with the right kind of analytical mind to turn vague concepts into refined builds and tactics, so that you've got practical knowledge on how to play it. In my door analogy, this would just be like knowing what door has the food, but still being unable to open the door. Or taking months to open the door. Is it not obvious that if you "played Protoss correctly" and Jaedong totally fucked around and did the stupidest shit possible with Zerg, he would still win? The relevant judgment of skill that you are required to make here is if you told a person of Spanishiwa's skill level how to play Zerg correctly would he be one of the best Zerg players in the world (regularly beating top players). I think if you watched 20 of his games, you'd probably say no. If you were being generous, you'd say "I don't know." He'd have to be ridiculously impressive in order for you to confidently say "yes" but that's what Mailing requires. My arguments have just been explaining why it's very reasonable and likely for us to say "no" or "I don't know."
Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
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On April 15 2011 08:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I haven't tried to go beyond answering Mailing's question, though I'm sure I incidentally went off on some tangents that widened the scope a bit. As a reminder, here's his question: If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players?
My answer to that was that there's more to winning and losing than the general style of play. Maybe Spanishiwa isn't good enough to make the best style of play in the world work at the highest level. Even if the best player in the world 5 years from now came back from the future and gave him a summary of how zergs are playing, he still would not beat top players. Going by your basic brackets of skill, I'm sure you can see how if you told someone who is good enough to get out of an open bracket of MLG something like "in ZvP, get gas really late in the early game, with lots of queens and drones, but then get as much gas as you can in the mid game, use nydus a lot, and drop harass a lot, banelings, infestors, ultras in late game" then he wouldn't suddenly be able to win GSL with that knowledge. There is a ridiculously high amount of skill needed to execute at that level. And there's a ridiculous amount of focused practiced needed, with the right kind of analytical mind to turn vague concepts into refined builds and tactics, so that you've got practical knowledge on how to play it. In my door analogy, this would just be like knowing what door has the food, but still being unable to open the door. Or taking months to open the door.
Is it not obvious that if you "played Protoss correctly" and Jaedong totally fucked around and did the stupidest shit possible with Zerg, he would still win? The relevant judgment of skill that you are required to make here is if you told a person of Spanishiwa's skill level how to play Zerg correctly would he be one of the best Zerg players in the world (regularly beating top players). I think if you watched 20 of his games, you'd probably say no. If you were being generous, you'd say "I don't know." He'd have to be ridiculously impressive in order for you to confidently say "yes" but that's what Mailing requires. My arguments have just been explaining why it's very reasonable and likely for us to say "no" or "I don't know."
Not even speaking of balance, because most of the arguments in this thread are ill thought out and I don't think many have took very much to any time to actually formulate something that is anything but drivel; but I do have a question to pose to you. You are a very analytical player and are probably one of the best when it comes to optimizing builds, so with this in mind, and knowing your own capabilities, do you fear at all Spanishiwa or Vibe's "nonstandard" play. I mean the style specifically, if you hit Idra in a tournament, or someone similarly skilled, which style are you more confident crushing.
It's pretty easy to say infestors and nydus et cetera are somehow the key to unlocking zerg, but honestly I don't see anything other than straight up hardcore macro, perfect scouting and decision making, basically very very good standard play by a zerg ever beating a protoss like you or Incontrol.
Maybe I'm wrong and you believe this style to be viable, but in my head I just don't foresee Incontrol and Axslav telling Idra or Machine or Strife that gasless spanishiwa's style is how you beat toss, I just don't see that happening.
Seriously cutting the bullshit, I doubt any top protoss wouldn't be ecstatic to go up against such a non-standard build.
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My username is darkhydra and I am a zerg whiner. lol.
Seriously though, here's the truth. I honestly think zerg is the weakest races but not unreasonably so, meaning that better players(more knowledgable or however you want to interpret that) can still overcome the unfavorable matchups. And this is perfectly fine for a game with 3 unique factions.
Since 2004 I been into fighting games, mostly marvel vs capcom 2 one of the most imbalanced games out there. In this game you needed to decide if you wanted to play to win or to just have fun(not to say that playing to win wasnt fun), if you wanted to play to win you HAD to choose from like 15 specific characters that were simply far superior than the other 41. I played the crap out of those overpowered characters, no problem.
So approching SC2 with that mentality it meant that if I truly believed zerg was that weak in comparison to terran and protoss the I would have to simply switch races. And I would've if that was the case.
So Im still playing zerg and I still think they have potential, so why do I bitch about them all the time? Is it becuase Im an Idra fan? No.
For me its the fact that I played zerg in broodwar and I absolutely hate the race's transition into SC2, so the entire time I was bitching about zerg is becuase I wanted for this version of that race to fail and blizzard to reconsider atleast some of their changes.
Now I now SC2=/=BW but seriously this is fucking retarded, Overlords no longer detect now you have to pay individually for detectors and I cant help but to get pissed off when banshee/DT are tearing my base apart right under my overlords, there are perks that races had in broodwar for example terran can lift off buildings they can still do that in SC2. Never having to worry about producing detecors was one for zerg you just had to worry about having them in position, now its no different than having to get a raven or observer. Why? becuase there is this new unit that wouldnt see much use if overlords still had detection. the overseer.
Burrow is now a lair research and more expensive. This is mainly due to the roach and baneling, this units make great use of burrow, but compare this to something like stim and warpgate which are both early game research, is it really too strong too warrant delaying until lair and a cost increase?
No more lurkers becuase blizz's new units wouldnt see any play, atleast this is what Ive read here and there. The bullshit claim that the lurker's role overlaps with banelings and that roaches and infestors make better use of burrow were the reasoning behind this. How the fuck is a suicide rangeless unit replace a cloaked attacker with decent health and siege like range? They have different uses. the only similarity is when you use burrowed banelings and even then its still not the same. As for roaches and infestors, they are great with burrow due to burrow move + heal but the lurker could actually... u know attack shit while burrowed.
Hydras are now a lair unit WTF where did this come from? This unit was originally designed as a tier 1 unit and is still comparable to the marine and stalker both tier 1 units it is such a retarded change, whats the deal here? To promote the use of the roach and the queen, 2 supply each, to get done what a hydra could do with 1 supply? And if this is the thought process behind it, if the queen and roach effectively replaced the hydras role then why even bother with them at lair?
No defilers ofcourse, who would use infestors if defilers were still in the game. One more of the things that made zerg stand apart form T and P, Darkswarm and consume. The argument here is that it was too powerfull to balance and therefore removed. Yet PDD still exists in the game.
Also other powerfull abilities from broodwar made it into SC2, not unchanged but theyre still there.
And also the new queen. The zerg macro mechanic which is also a half assed combat unit, the only macro mechanic that takes up supply. Spawn larva is so good that queens cannot be replaced by hatcheries yet in the late game queens reduce the size of your maxed out army. Yet the queens is considered as a zerg combat unit as well but is so creep dependant that 90% of its use is for base defense... WITH 3 RANGE?
Speaking of creep, this mechanic doesnt even sound good on paper. Take the speed of an entire race(that is supposed to be fast) and tie it to something that spreads slowly across the map starting from your base... Really? This is supposed to be an improvement? As is zerg didnt play differently enough already. Creep was already a limitation as to where you can build but now its also the only area where your units will move at their full potential
But I agree with everything that was said by Geoff, Tyler and Sean and I will have to try to ignore all of these things that bother me and simply play the game. I guess I simply expected more from bilzzard than some of these other video game companies.
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EPT
