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On April 15 2011 09:48 Ultramus wrote:
Seriously cutting the bullshit, I doubt any top protoss wouldn't be ecstatic to go up against such a non-standard build.
Spanishiwa himself said that the gasless build would die to two gate.
But that doesn't mean that he should abandon the build, or ignore it's merits.
This is exactly what Day9 and Tyler were trying to explain in the last cast -- to create a solid strategy or new build, you can't just give up the second it fails. You have to refine it and test it and tease out the little adjustments. That's the entire point of the game.
And you can see that Spanishiwa is doing this, and approaching the game 'the right way'. I can't imagine the amount of trial of error he must have gone through, to have as much success as he has with a gasless build.
In the case of the two-gate, maybe it's just a matter of sending out an earlier scout to the main, and another scout around the map. Maybe you try to squeeze ling speed into the build, just for safety. There's tons of room for improvement, and the build will probably never be perfect.
And to a certain extent, I think that's what Tyler meant when his said, "This is what Starcraft is about."
If the game was 'solvable' than there would be no point to competing. I think part of the porblem is that some gamers expect there to be some kind of Silver Bullet Build; an infallible build that is perfectly safe.
If you're the type of gamer that expects to win, always, and never have to accept risk, you should probably be playing Super Mario Bros or Dance Dance Revolution or something. Starcraft has too many variables to ever master it, which is what makes it one of the greatest games in history.
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On April 15 2011 04:33 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:16 LastMan wrote:On April 15 2011 03:57 karpo wrote:On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran Yet protoss didn't get huge buffs against terran. Gateway units were considered trash back then, now many players stick with gateway units for a long time and do really well against terrans It was more of a revolution in play than patches solving the game. Idra and zergs just go straight to the patching solution, regardless of what anyone says the wins are due to luck and losses due to "cannot win, period". observer and phoenix build time buff, medivac speed nerf, repair nerf, stim nerf, bunker build time nerf observer cost change obviously saves you about 50/50 every game, but that's not big enough to make or break any timings.
I think the observer change was more important than you let on (although not relevant to Terran timing pushes).
At 25/75, Observers are cheap enough to trade for mules. At 50/100, they weren't.
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On April 15 2011 10:25 Defacer wrote:
If the game was 'solvable' than there would be no point to competing. I think part of the porblem is that some gamers expect there to be some kind of Silver Bullet Build; an infallible build that is perfectly safe.
I agree with you here, that build should not exist (cough pvz stargate expand builds cough cough wheeze)
However, players also need to be given the tools to react to their opponent - while there shouldn't be a safe vs everything build, there should also not be hard counters to safe builds, you should be able to scout and adapt to what your opponent is doing - something I feel that zerg is sorely missing (before lairtech).
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On April 15 2011 11:09 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 10:25 Defacer wrote:
If the game was 'solvable' than there would be no point to competing. I think part of the porblem is that some gamers expect there to be some kind of Silver Bullet Build; an infallible build that is perfectly safe.
I agree with you here, that build should not exist (cough pvz stargate expand builds cough cough wheeze)
PvZ Stargate Expand builds, like any other Safe Build, faces a serious risk of having an inferior economy to the opponent.
I feel like Zerg players claim they want a 'safe build' but only if it guarantees them a superior economy.
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On April 15 2011 11:21 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 11:09 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 15 2011 10:25 Defacer wrote:
If the game was 'solvable' than there would be no point to competing. I think part of the porblem is that some gamers expect there to be some kind of Silver Bullet Build; an infallible build that is perfectly safe.
I agree with you here, that build should not exist (cough pvz stargate expand builds cough cough wheeze) PvZ Stargate Expand builds, like any other Safe Build, faces a serious risk of having an inferior economy to the opponent. I feel like Zerg players claim they want a 'safe build' but only if it guarantees them a superior economy.
No, Zerg players want to be able to not have to prepare for everything so that their economy can be on par (or a little ahead - zerg tends to have more drones and that's considered even) but that would take scouting. On the flip side, stargate expands:
1. Deny zerg scouting even harder
2. Guaranteed damage against at least one overlord
3. Completely safe due to lack of zerg offensive AA and forcefields
4. Can put pressure on the zerg
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On April 15 2011 11:32 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 11:21 Severedevil wrote:On April 15 2011 11:09 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 15 2011 10:25 Defacer wrote:
If the game was 'solvable' than there would be no point to competing. I think part of the porblem is that some gamers expect there to be some kind of Silver Bullet Build; an infallible build that is perfectly safe.
I agree with you here, that build should not exist (cough pvz stargate expand builds cough cough wheeze) PvZ Stargate Expand builds, like any other Safe Build, faces a serious risk of having an inferior economy to the opponent. I feel like Zerg players claim they want a 'safe build' but only if it guarantees them a superior economy. No, Zerg players want to be able to not have to prepare for everything so that their economy can be on par (or a little ahead - zerg tends to have more drones and that's considered even) but that would take scouting.
I'm not convinced you need to see inside an opponent's base in ZvP if you build 3-4 Queens by default (and poke his front/nat with lings occasionally of course). A lot of Zergs build only two Queens, so they don't have creep spread and are very vulnerable to unexpected air attacks.
On the flip side, stargate expands:
1. Deny zerg scouting
I like you, and I'ma let you finish, but Zerglings have some of the best scouting of all time.
And neither Phoenix nor Void Rays can prevent it.
Unless you want to see inside Protoss's main, in which case... that's just greedy. You don't need that information. You know he's on Stargate, you know whether or not he expanded, you know where his army is. That's all you should need.
2. Guaranteed damage against at least one overlord
Sure, but the Zerg gets 'guaranteed damage' in the form of a MUCH earlier expansion and no possible pressure from the Protoss before, what, 6:30?
1-2 overlords is not a huge sacrifice. A Stargate Expand that only snipes a couple overlords and no other pressure is in trouble.
3. Completely safe due to lack of zerg offensive AA
4. Can put pressure on the zerg
Yep! But not both at the same time.
Stargate PvZ expands are my absolute favorite 1v1 opening, so I'm acutely aware of the Protoss's primary balancing act - if you send your units to the Zerg base, Zerglings can deny your natural.
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On April 15 2011 11:54 Severedevil wrote:Sure, but the Zerg gets 'guaranteed damage' in the form of a MUCH earlier expansion and no possible pressure from the Protoss before, what, 6:30?
That 6:30 figure made me chuckle a little. I think 5:40 is a much better estimate of when a basic 4-gate hits.
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On April 15 2011 11:57 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 11:54 Severedevil wrote:2. Guaranteed damage against at least one overlord Sure, but the Zerg gets 'guaranteed damage' in the form of a MUCH earlier expansion and no possible pressure from the Protoss before, what, 6:30? That 6:30 figure made me chuckle a little. I think 5:40 is a much better estimate of when a basic 4-gate hits.
We're discussing Stargate openings.
And a basic 4 gate only hits at 5:40 if you have a proxy pylon for your first warp, which should never happen if Protoss is in his main, which he should be if he's opening Stargate.
You do not have to defend a 5:40 push timing if you have information that renders it impossible!
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I'm not convinced you need to see inside an opponent's base in ZvP if you build 3-4 Queens by default (and poke his front/nat with lings occasionally of course). A lot of Zergs build only two Queens, so they don't have creep spread and are very vulnerable to unexpected air attacks.
Actually, watching Day[9]'s daily with spanishwa right now and I'm slowly thinking that a mineral-heavy early game with queens and spines is pretty damn strong (because queens are damn good against all toss air except carriers and motherships, lol, and spines with transfuse are good against all gateway units)... so I concede.
I like you
:D
Yeah, I'm getting more and more convinced that the current standard is too reliant on timings and thus, reliant on information, whereas when you have a fuckton of minerals you can spend it on whatever the shit you want to. I'm not sold on Spanishwa's midgame but I'm sure as hell loving his opening (for ZvP, ZvT and ZvZ I'm also not sold on).
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On April 15 2011 12:03 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +
I'm not convinced you need to see inside an opponent's base in ZvP if you build 3-4 Queens by default (and poke his front/nat with lings occasionally of course). A lot of Zergs build only two Queens, so they don't have creep spread and are very vulnerable to unexpected air attacks.
Actually, watching Day[9]'s daily with spanishwa right now and I'm slowly thinking that a mineral-heavy early game with queens and spines is pretty damn strong (because queens are damn good against all toss air except carriers and motherships, lol, and spines with transfuse are good against all gateway units)... so I concede. :D Yeah, I'm getting more and more convinced that the current standard is too reliant on timings and thus, reliant on information, whereas when you have a fuckton of minerals you can spend it on whatever the shit you want to. I'm not sold on Spanishwa's midgame but I'm sure as hell loving his opening (for ZvP, ZvT and ZvZ I'm also not sold on).
Yeah, to be honest, I've never had trouble against star gate openings specifically. It's pretty easy to scout or read, and if you have enough queens they can hold it on their own.
And if I'm really paranoid and suspect shenanigans, I usually just invest in a spore at each base to protect against DT and Stargate rushes.
Bear in mind I don't play very good players :\
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On April 15 2011 10:32 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:33 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On April 15 2011 04:16 LastMan wrote:On April 15 2011 03:57 karpo wrote:On April 15 2011 03:53 imbs wrote:On April 15 2011 03:49 Treehead wrote:On April 15 2011 03:34 imbs wrote:
here is an interesting set of quotes from an old sotg episode (one from 11.16.10 according to the file) that i wrote up for you. this was when protoss wasnt doing so well. some of these may be inaccurate but really i didn't have much time to do this so i didn't double check it.
incontrol
"thats why you have 12 protoss in the gsl, thats why you look at the top 200 north america and theres 46 protoss.... (goes on to list other top 200 stats)"
"if terran forgets a mule he can just drop 8 more mules, and now they have 4 times the size economy but if i miss a chrono boost im screwed"
"if i miss a forcefield and he runs up my ramp im dead. (on a) terrans ramp its because he lets a depot which goes up and down down."
"there are alot of little coin flips that strongly favor the terran in my opinion"
"protoss has to play as nony said perfectly to counter whatever the terran decides to do, and that puts the protoss player on his heels and thats a bad place for any rts in my opinion"
tyler
"protoss just feels more bare; the other races can survive a variety of things better than protoss can."
"the size of a mistake that a protoss makes that loses a game doesnt for terran"
"terran can just survive some misjudgements some mistakes with timing stuff like that"
"composition wise terran has a lot more leeway, if protoss wants to win they have to have a perfect composition for that or they are screwed"
there was much more of this stuff but you get the gist, and to be fair there were one or two occasions where incontrol would say or mention something about bisu.
fact is though back when protoss was seen as up and terran as op tyler n incontrol had no problem having a big discussion with painuser on balance. with idra they laughed him off randomly and next episode decided to sit there harping on about how they need to use mass nydus/infestors and theory crafted with no actual zerg around..... i like tyler and incontrol but i did not appreciate how hypocritical they were being; its hard to be too annoyed though as when you are not the most successful (mainly applies to tyler recently, but incontrol has his fair share of critics too) it is very hard to accept that your race is giving you an advantage. You're quoting the reason why they felt protoss had a problem surviving Terran timing pushes. Did they ever actually state that the game was broken and that a patch was needed? Or were they talking about why they felt they were having trouble. Please notice that even in the "outrageous" things they said, there was an admission that if they played perfectly (read as: better than they were currently), they could win. Saying "I need to do a lot of stuff and I don't feel like my opponent does" is stating your mentality, your opinion. Stating "I think it's obvious that ZvP is clearly broken and that until they patch it zerg is just worse than all the other races" is touting your opinion as fact. I don't think that if Idra posted, stated in interviews, etc. that he felt like he had to play better than other races did to win - so he was going to get so good that he could play better than everyone, instead of posting, stating in interviews, and making a show about how his race needs patch buffs, he would be dismissed as readily. no ones arguing that idra is more outspoken. and yes a lot of what they were saying did hint at imbalance, and incontrol said something like "we need patching...or some kind of bisu revolution" fact is they were more political if thats possible in sc2, but that is it. their opinion is clear from that episode; protoss < terran Yet protoss didn't get huge buffs against terran. Gateway units were considered trash back then, now many players stick with gateway units for a long time and do really well against terrans It was more of a revolution in play than patches solving the game. Idra and zergs just go straight to the patching solution, regardless of what anyone says the wins are due to luck and losses due to "cannot win, period". observer and phoenix build time buff, medivac speed nerf, repair nerf, stim nerf, bunker build time nerf observer cost change obviously saves you about 50/50 every game, but that's not big enough to make or break any timings. I think the observer change was more important than you let on (although not relevant to Terran timing pushes). At 25/75, Observers are cheap enough to trade for mules. At 50/100, they weren't.
Trading a scan for an observer was never about the 50/100 cost, it was about the robo time wasted making another one delaying colossus production.
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On April 15 2011 19:25 zeru wrote:I encourage every zerg to watch yestedays daily ( #286). The first time i heard about spanishiwa and his build i thought it was just some random sillyness which wouldn't work, but I was seriously impressed, seriously. It's extremely thought through. Dont tunnel vision anything out like I know some of you did for this sotg episode, keep the zerg rage out of your mind, stay open to it, listen and learn. And no, I'm not saying his opponents are godly omfg MC like players, but no doubt top 200, considering he's top 50 on US, we will of course have to see what happens when/if it reaches euro/korean zergs and they actually try it.
This is getting old.
One day we have everybody saying "zerg is not reactionnary enough, should tech switch more". The day after Day9 come saying "zerg play way too reactionnary" and everybody jump on the train.
Then the day after, everybody is saying you are not playing agressiv enough, you must tear the death ball before it come into game, then Day come and say hey man just build a shitload of infestor with broodlord, then everybody jump on the train again.
Most of the guy talking just don't watch IdrA: he is making broodlord infestor, he is almost always making infestors, he is switching tech, he is even using nydus a lot. He is one of the most, if not the most diverse zerg player I have ever seen.
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On April 15 2011 19:34 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 19:25 zeru wrote:I encourage every zerg to watch yestedays daily ( #286). The first time i heard about spanishiwa and his build i thought it was just some random sillyness which wouldn't work, but I was seriously impressed, seriously. It's extremely thought through. Dont tunnel vision anything out like I know some of you did for this sotg episode, keep the zerg rage out of your mind, stay open to it, listen and learn. And no, I'm not saying his opponents are godly omfg MC like players, but no doubt top 200, considering he's top 50 on US, we will of course have to see what happens when/if it reaches euro/korean zergs and they actually try it. This is getting old. One day we have everybody saying "zerg is not reactionnary enough, should tech switch more". The day after Day9 come saying "zerg play way too reactionnary" and everybody jump on the train. Then the day after, everybody is saying you are not playing agressiv enough, you must tear the death ball before it come into game, then Day come and say hey man just build a shitload of infestor with broodlord, then everybody jump on the train again. Most of the guy talking just don't watch IdrA: he is making broodlord infestor, he is almost always making infestors, he is switching tech, he is even using nydus a lot. He is one of the most, if not the most diverse zerg player I have ever seen.
Yeah, and he (Idra) wins a LOT doing this.
I don't even know what the point of your post is...
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On April 15 2011 19:37 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 19:34 WhiteDog wrote:On April 15 2011 19:25 zeru wrote:I encourage every zerg to watch yestedays daily ( #286). The first time i heard about spanishiwa and his build i thought it was just some random sillyness which wouldn't work, but I was seriously impressed, seriously. It's extremely thought through. Dont tunnel vision anything out like I know some of you did for this sotg episode, keep the zerg rage out of your mind, stay open to it, listen and learn. And no, I'm not saying his opponents are godly omfg MC like players, but no doubt top 200, considering he's top 50 on US, we will of course have to see what happens when/if it reaches euro/korean zergs and they actually try it. This is getting old. One day we have everybody saying "zerg is not reactionnary enough, should tech switch more". The day after Day9 come saying "zerg play way too reactionnary" and everybody jump on the train. Then the day after, everybody is saying you are not playing agressiv enough, you must tear the death ball before it come into game, then Day come and say hey man just build a shitload of infestor with broodlord, then everybody jump on the train again. Most of the guy talking just don't watch IdrA: he is making broodlord infestor, he is almost always making infestors, he is switching tech, he is even using nydus a lot. He is one of the most, if not the most diverse zerg player I have ever seen. Yeah, and he (Idra) wins a LOT doing this. I don't even know what the point of your post is...
My point is, everybody is saying IdrA is not trying, not diverse enough, while in fact he is. And he is winning a lot against no name in the NA grand master league.
Most of the guy on this forum just whine about the whine, can't bear that someone think the game is imbalanced, even one bit. Soon the whiners about the whine will come at IdrA and say: look man, just play like Spanishiwa, his playstyle is better than yours (that's what Tyler is suggesting in his posts), while IdrA just makes everything units spanishiwa does, and more.
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On April 15 2011 19:41 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 19:37 MrCon wrote:On April 15 2011 19:34 WhiteDog wrote:On April 15 2011 19:25 zeru wrote:I encourage every zerg to watch yestedays daily ( #286). The first time i heard about spanishiwa and his build i thought it was just some random sillyness which wouldn't work, but I was seriously impressed, seriously. It's extremely thought through. Dont tunnel vision anything out like I know some of you did for this sotg episode, keep the zerg rage out of your mind, stay open to it, listen and learn. And no, I'm not saying his opponents are godly omfg MC like players, but no doubt top 200, considering he's top 50 on US, we will of course have to see what happens when/if it reaches euro/korean zergs and they actually try it. This is getting old. One day we have everybody saying "zerg is not reactionnary enough, should tech switch more". The day after Day9 come saying "zerg play way too reactionnary" and everybody jump on the train. Then the day after, everybody is saying you are not playing agressiv enough, you must tear the death ball before it come into game, then Day come and say hey man just build a shitload of infestor with broodlord, then everybody jump on the train again. Most of the guy talking just don't watch IdrA: he is making broodlord infestor, he is almost always making infestors, he is switching tech, he is even using nydus a lot. He is one of the most, if not the most diverse zerg player I have ever seen. Yeah, and he (Idra) wins a LOT doing this. I don't even know what the point of your post is... My point is, everybody is saying IdrA is not trying, not diverse enough, while in fact he is. And he is winning a lot against no name in the NA grand master league. Most of the guy on this forum just whine about the whine, can't bear that someone think the game is imbalanced, even one bit. Soon the whiners about the whine will come at IdrA and say: look man, just play like Spanishiwa, his playstyle is better than yours (that's what Tyler is suggesting in his posts), while IdrA just makes everything units spanishiwa does, and more.
So Idra is winning against "no names" in the grand master league. Aren't they at the very top of the ladder? Who decided that Idra is the best zerg ever and that he is doing everything other zergs are doing and doing it better? Sounds like fanboy drivel to me as there's at least 4-5 zergs in the GSL better than Idra and we could argue that at least a couple in EU/US are just as good or even better.
Tyler was talking about measuring balance, not saying that Spanishiwas playstyle is better. Seems like your bias is preventing you from actually understanding what people like Tyler are saying.
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Only 2 spots left in NA's GM and artosis is still out :<
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On April 15 2011 19:43 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 19:34 WhiteDog wrote:On April 15 2011 19:25 zeru wrote:I encourage every zerg to watch yestedays daily ( #286). The first time i heard about spanishiwa and his build i thought it was just some random sillyness which wouldn't work, but I was seriously impressed, seriously. It's extremely thought through. Dont tunnel vision anything out like I know some of you did for this sotg episode, keep the zerg rage out of your mind, stay open to it, listen and learn. And no, I'm not saying his opponents are godly omfg MC like players, but no doubt top 200, considering he's top 50 on US, we will of course have to see what happens when/if it reaches euro/korean zergs and they actually try it. This is getting old. One day we have everybody saying "zerg is not reactionnary enough, should tech switch more". The day after Day9 come saying "zerg play way too reactionnary" and everybody jump on the train. Then the day after, everybody is saying you are not playing agressiv enough, you must tear the death ball before it come into game, then Day come and say hey man just build a shitload of infestor with broodlord, then everybody jump on the train again. Most of the guy talking just don't watch IdrA: he is making broodlord infestor, he is almost always making infestors, he is switching tech, he is even using nydus a lot. He is one of the most, if not the most diverse zerg player I have ever seen. You don't know how the build works. All you do is cry about stuff you don't actually understand. Why are zerg players so emo and negative by default, its like the race attracts ragers. Feel free to stay tunnel visioned and angry, thats your problem. People like you are the ones who contribute nothing, don't actually think, and prevent this forum from being amazing. It's not about just building infestor, nydus, broodlord. It's WAY deeper and complex than that. If you don't try to learn, you won't learn.
Constantly losing to bad players you shouldn't be losing make you emo and negative by default, so yea blame zerg for it.
On topic:
I really hate Spanishiwa's build in ZvZ. Have yet to do it in ZvP, but ZvT it also didnt see that great. I remember darkforce critiqued the build on the strat forum thread, and offered some pretty good review of its weaknesses. I'l post them here cause they offer pretty good insight from some1 who actually knows what he's talking about: (Not to bash the build or anything, but I think a pro's perspective is helpful.)
+ Show Spoiler +On March 31 2011 21:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Meh. I see this mainly working because people dont realize the big weaknesses of this build. I absolutely dont see you holding some kind of 2 rax pressure into expand into 5 rax stimpush, as you will not even have zergling speed done when the push is outside of your base. and slow lings against stimmed MM is no fun.
Against P i find it problematic not to be able to scout very well (like checking whether he takes gas at his nat, cancel his nexus and stuff like that.. al that is way harder with slow lings). furthermore, as kcdc said, you have no offensive potential, so P can just take a third very save.
And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents.
Overall i think this build CAN work, if your opponent does not exploit it properly, but i think it is rather easy to exploit, at least in ZvP and ZvZ because it is easy to scout there. In ZvT i guess it might work out well sometimes, but if your opponents goes for an early stimpush or smth. like that youre screwed :/ On March 31 2011 23:22 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 23:09 kcdc wrote:On March 31 2011 21:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Meh. I see this mainly working because people dont realize the big weaknesses of this build. I absolutely dont see you holding some kind of 2 rax pressure into expand into 5 rax stimpush, as you will not even have zergling speed done when the push is outside of your base. and slow lings against stimmed MM is no fun.
Against P i find it problematic not to be able to scout very well (like checking whether he takes gas at his nat, cancel his nexus and stuff like that.. al that is way harder with slow lings). furthermore, as kcdc said, you have no offensive potential, so P can just take a third very save.
And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents.
Overall i think this build CAN work, if your opponent does not exploit it properly, but i think it is rather easy to exploit, at least in ZvP and ZvZ because it is easy to scout there. In ZvT i guess it might work out well sometimes, but if your opponents goes for an early stimpush or smth. like that youre screwed :/ Against P, I can see it working as sort of a 2-base tech turtle where you're essentially saying, "Ok Protoss, you can have map control and 3 bases, but I'm going to have lots of drones and I'm going to tech straight infestors and blings with OL drops, and soon after, I'll have ultras, and I'll beat your macro with unit efficiency." Didn't Zergs tech turtle to defilers against Terran all the time in BW? I don't think know exactly how efficient infestors + bling drops is going to be at this point, but there's no doubt that it rocks the hell out of the standard stalker, sentry, colossus + optional void ray composition. We'll have to see what happens when Protoss players adjust. You definitely dont have the gas to support infestor + baneling drop on 2 bases. On April 01 2011 18:44 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 11:00 grungust wrote:
I'm interested in darkforces response to spanishiwa. He ignored most of the points i critized, which to me means, that the build is in fact not as great as most people here think. but lets see: Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 01:18 Spanishiwa wrote:
There is a huge 110 second window before he gets his speedling tech up where you'll have slowling vs slowling. Scouting during this time is very easy, and you'll be able to tell what he's doing. He'll need to start his expansion during this time for it to be anything other than a 1 base all in. So you'll see from there. And it's not that difficult to hide a zergling or two during this stage around the map so that you can use it for scouting purposes. Overlord sacs can work too to check drone saturation and # of geysers taken. If he opens 14g14p you wont have your Pool done for a good part of that "huge 110 second window". I just randomly clicked one of the ZvZ replays and checked the buildorder (it was 15h14p btw. and not 16h15p as stated in the OP). Your pool starts 2:40. Pool builds 65 seconds. Your first Lings start building at 3:45. They hatch 24 seconds later, at 4:09. Now it depends on the map how long they need to your opponents base. I'd say we can take an average of like 30s.so you arrive at 4:39, which is about 25 seconds before zergling speed finishes, so you MIGHT get one glimpse of the inside of his base. It doesnt really matter whether he starts an expansion, he can still continue to pump speedlings, or he switches to drones, you dont know. and the fact that you have no clue what your opponent is going to do makes this build bad in my eyes. Next problem: Usually against 14g14p your zerglings will arrive at your natural around the time your first zerglings spawn. Now im curious how you want to a) send scoutling to your opponents base and b) hide lings around the map for later scouting when your opponent is right at your natural pressuring to run in and kill drones or whatever. Remember your first Lings spawn 55 seconds before Lingspeed finishes, so there is not as much time as you think to do all that. I just dont see it working. Overlord sacs .. meh, i guess it can give you valuable information sometimes, but they are so slow and sometimes it will just put your further behind. If you message me on eu (atndarkforce.423) we can do some games and maybe i can prove my points in practise. On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that. On April 07 2011 00:57 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:20 spacebarbarian wrote:On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that. Hmm, I don't see how a terran could possibly expect to, and even if they tried, win a expand+saturate race against a zerg. Both droning and expanding is cheaper and faster for a Z, so if you see the T going for a third, then maybe just skip gas on the natural after the 40 food mark and expand again? I think the terran will eventually be playing catch up even if they have the head start from not getting those static defenses + the extra MULE. Well, this is your opinion. I think if you invest in static defense like this and if terran does not have to worry about early speedling attacks (super late gas) and he can very well compete and imo will even come out ahead against this build... On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:
Seven Roach Rush.
@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want. That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd. Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience. You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens). Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p On April 07 2011 18:26 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 18:20 themell wrote:On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:
Seven Roach Rush.
@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want. That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd. Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience. You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens). Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p It seems to me that you're just really biased against this build. I don't see how a 2 rax double expand could work. That's 800 minerals (and countless scvs) that aren't marines. You may have enough to contain the zerg, but once your "double expansion" happens, you have to pull back. Also, with a couple spine crawlers and queens, he can slowly move spine crawlers forward one at a time to crush any bunker contain. The only thing killing tumors will do is prevent mobility of ground units. As for vision and scouting, zerg still has overlords. At least one should be near the opponents base to scout, or at least by the expansion to see if the terran is expanding. Yes im really biased against this build because it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense. This is ok against a 1 basing opponent who goes for some kind of allin, but not against 2 or more bases. Also, not being able to spread creep means that terran will be able to push much faster later on, because he does not have to kill as much creep on the way. I dont know Spanishiwa at all, so its nothing personal, i just think that overvalueing this build will develop bad habits. On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:45 VictorX wrote:On April 08 2011 04:30 IPA wrote:
Loving these guys calling out DarkForce, a proven Euro Zerg power, like he doesn't know what he is talking about. "B-but it worked in my gold league!!"
I don't think he is calling out the build itself as terrible or useless, just that it builds habits that are counter-intuitive to the race's strengths. If you have a solid grasp of fundamentals and several different builds in your repertoire, there's no reason why you can't add this one. I wasn't trying to call out DarkForce, I know he is a pro, the guy's on liquipedia ;p I also have doubts about it's power in ZvZ, because I find being unable to scout the opponent constantly to be unnerving (because of the speed of a zerg push compared to terran and toss) I think what DarkForce is arguing is that giving up map control between 20 food and 50 food is bad, but I have found through playing in masters (now 30 games of experience) that after the dark period of 20-50 food is over, you end up with full saturation quicker, more map control, and more options. He is very right that the biggest problem is that it puts 0 pressure, therefor allowing a reactive opponent to out-macro you once he scouts that you are not taking gas at all. My solution so far is double expanding to match a quick third, or dedicating to heavy harassment. Whether this will fail me in the future is too early to tell, Spanishwa definitely has more experience on the weaknesses of the build against greedy econ play than I do. (he's already admitted it dies to 2rax all in) In a way Spanishwa's build is an econ risk. Something must be given up to secure such a quick economy, and that thing is total map control exerted by early speedlings. By cutting speedlings (cutting gas), you get more drones, faster. As to some people concerned about being unable to spread creep without lings, this is absolutely true. I find it very easy to simply spread creep around their army, into "tasteless secret hallway" and other alternative routes. Also it's not hard to just postpone creep, having active tumors stockpiled on the edge of his army, ready to push out as soon as your first two rounds of speedlings are moving out to re-establish map control. But a camped army in the middle of map denies creep like no other, and is definitely a weakness when you don't have enough creep to immediately and safely throw down a third against air play (queens can't get there) When you take gas as late as 40 you dont suddenly have Zerglingspeed finished at 50 supply. And mapcontrol without Zerglingspeed is not something that happens very often. taking gas at 40 means that it takes a little less than 3 more minutes (ingame time) until you have zergling speed done (after taking gas). so, at 2 hatcheries and 9 larvae per hatch per minute you should be at like 90 food when you finally have zergling speed. assuming a little over 1 supply per larvae. Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:52 OutlaW- wrote:On April 07 2011 18:26 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 07 2011 18:20 themell wrote:On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:
Seven Roach Rush.
@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want. That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd. Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience. You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens). Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p It seems to me that you're just really biased against this build. I don't see how a 2 rax double expand could work. That's 800 minerals (and countless scvs) that aren't marines. You may have enough to contain the zerg, but once your "double expansion" happens, you have to pull back. Also, with a couple spine crawlers and queens, he can slowly move spine crawlers forward one at a time to crush any bunker contain. The only thing killing tumors will do is prevent mobility of ground units. As for vision and scouting, zerg still has overlords. At least one should be near the opponents base to scout, or at least by the expansion to see if the terran is expanding. Yes im really biased against this build because it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense. This is ok against a 1 basing opponent who goes for some kind of allin, but not against 2 or more bases. Also, not being able to spread creep means that terran will be able to push much faster later on, because he does not have to kill as much creep on the way. I dont know Spanishiwa at all, so its nothing personal, i just think that overvalueing this build will develop bad habits. Your arguments are solid and I won't argue against them, but perhaps this is the mindset of Zergs keeping them from exploring new things? The fact that they have to work so hard to refine everything and then it just doesn't work maybe warps their sense of reality a bit, denying to try new things and explore the unknown? It's really hard to explain with words, but I feel that Spanishiwa and everyone else who is trying this build is definitely pushing starcraft further, regardless if this build turns out to have too big flaws or not. Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error. The thing is, as i said, this build is good against certain things (especially 1 base allins), but once a very good player has played against this 1-2 times he should be able to exploit it properly (faking aggression to force crawlers, expanding but denying the slowlings from scouting it early - on some maps you cant use ovis to scout his natural). Now you might say that it is a good build to play once in a series to surprise your opponent. But the problem with this is that your opponent will be able to keep his scouting worker alive until at least ~30 seconds after your pool finishes, that means, he will be able to see that even until then you have not taken your gas, thus he knows he will be very save. if you take gas after you have killed his worker in order to throw him off, it will take another 3:15 until you have zergling speed done, with which you could get aggressive. that is very late. On April 08 2011 18:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 12:08 JaqMs wrote:
I know hydras have gone out of style recently in ZvP, but could this build viably transition into a heavy queen/hydra army? Seems like it theoretically counters the deathball (queens vs colossi/void rays and hydras vs gateway units). Queens also seem to be better meatshields than roaches since they are, non-armored, bigger (less colossi AoE damage), and have transfuse. Movement speed shouldn't be a problem due to the build's immense creep spread. Perhaps queens could be loaded into overlords and create "flash" creep spread in the proximity of the opponent's base. No offense man, but what have you been smoking? How in gods name does Queen/Hydra counter colo+x :D? I mean, Queens do like no damage whatsoever, are super slow like hydras and both get melted by colossi. Also, good protoss players will deny alot of creepspread and due to your lack of mapcontrol with your build you cannot really prevent this. It really baffles me how people say that this build has good creep spread, sure, you have alot of extra queens, but only in lowlevel games this actually results in more creepspread. against competent opponents you need queens AND mapcontrol, otherwise your opponent will just walk up right outside your static defense and wait there and kill of any tumor that tries to spread out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
Yes, dimaga uses this sometimes, i have actually practised some against him where he played something similar to this build, but i always came out a bit ahead after the early game (he also agreed on this). He still managed to win afterwards, but that was not due to his starting build, but one time due to me misspositioning my army and another time due to overdroning when i took the third and then dying to mass roach -_-. The thing in starcraft 2 is, even if you play an inferior build, you can still win, as people simply make many mistakes.. even at the top levels of play
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On April 15 2011 20:42 loveeholicce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 19:43 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 19:34 WhiteDog wrote:On April 15 2011 19:25 zeru wrote:I encourage every zerg to watch yestedays daily ( #286). The first time i heard about spanishiwa and his build i thought it was just some random sillyness which wouldn't work, but I was seriously impressed, seriously. It's extremely thought through. Dont tunnel vision anything out like I know some of you did for this sotg episode, keep the zerg rage out of your mind, stay open to it, listen and learn. And no, I'm not saying his opponents are godly omfg MC like players, but no doubt top 200, considering he's top 50 on US, we will of course have to see what happens when/if it reaches euro/korean zergs and they actually try it. This is getting old. One day we have everybody saying "zerg is not reactionnary enough, should tech switch more". The day after Day9 come saying "zerg play way too reactionnary" and everybody jump on the train. Then the day after, everybody is saying you are not playing agressiv enough, you must tear the death ball before it come into game, then Day come and say hey man just build a shitload of infestor with broodlord, then everybody jump on the train again. Most of the guy talking just don't watch IdrA: he is making broodlord infestor, he is almost always making infestors, he is switching tech, he is even using nydus a lot. He is one of the most, if not the most diverse zerg player I have ever seen. You don't know how the build works. All you do is cry about stuff you don't actually understand. Why are zerg players so emo and negative by default, its like the race attracts ragers. Feel free to stay tunnel visioned and angry, thats your problem. People like you are the ones who contribute nothing, don't actually think, and prevent this forum from being amazing. It's not about just building infestor, nydus, broodlord. It's WAY deeper and complex than that. If you don't try to learn, you won't learn. Constantly losing to bad players you shouldn't be losing make you emo and negative by default, so yea blame zerg for it. On topic: I really hate Spanishiwa's build in ZvZ. Have yet to do it in ZvP, but ZvT it also didnt see that great. I remember darkforce critiqued the build on the strat forum thread, and offered some pretty good review of its weaknesses. I'l post them here cause they offer pretty good insight from some1 who actually knows what he's talking about: (Not to bash the build or anything, but I think a pro's perspective is helpful.) + Show Spoiler +On March 31 2011 21:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Meh. I see this mainly working because people dont realize the big weaknesses of this build. I absolutely dont see you holding some kind of 2 rax pressure into expand into 5 rax stimpush, as you will not even have zergling speed done when the push is outside of your base. and slow lings against stimmed MM is no fun.
Against P i find it problematic not to be able to scout very well (like checking whether he takes gas at his nat, cancel his nexus and stuff like that.. al that is way harder with slow lings). furthermore, as kcdc said, you have no offensive potential, so P can just take a third very save.
And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents.
Overall i think this build CAN work, if your opponent does not exploit it properly, but i think it is rather easy to exploit, at least in ZvP and ZvZ because it is easy to scout there. In ZvT i guess it might work out well sometimes, but if your opponents goes for an early stimpush or smth. like that youre screwed :/ On March 31 2011 23:22 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 23:09 kcdc wrote:On March 31 2011 21:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Meh. I see this mainly working because people dont realize the big weaknesses of this build. I absolutely dont see you holding some kind of 2 rax pressure into expand into 5 rax stimpush, as you will not even have zergling speed done when the push is outside of your base. and slow lings against stimmed MM is no fun.
Against P i find it problematic not to be able to scout very well (like checking whether he takes gas at his nat, cancel his nexus and stuff like that.. al that is way harder with slow lings). furthermore, as kcdc said, you have no offensive potential, so P can just take a third very save.
And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents.
Overall i think this build CAN work, if your opponent does not exploit it properly, but i think it is rather easy to exploit, at least in ZvP and ZvZ because it is easy to scout there. In ZvT i guess it might work out well sometimes, but if your opponents goes for an early stimpush or smth. like that youre screwed :/ Against P, I can see it working as sort of a 2-base tech turtle where you're essentially saying, "Ok Protoss, you can have map control and 3 bases, but I'm going to have lots of drones and I'm going to tech straight infestors and blings with OL drops, and soon after, I'll have ultras, and I'll beat your macro with unit efficiency." Didn't Zergs tech turtle to defilers against Terran all the time in BW? I don't think know exactly how efficient infestors + bling drops is going to be at this point, but there's no doubt that it rocks the hell out of the standard stalker, sentry, colossus + optional void ray composition. We'll have to see what happens when Protoss players adjust. You definitely dont have the gas to support infestor + baneling drop on 2 bases. On April 01 2011 18:44 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 11:00 grungust wrote:
I'm interested in darkforces response to spanishiwa. He ignored most of the points i critized, which to me means, that the build is in fact not as great as most people here think. but lets see: Show nested quote +On April 01 2011 01:18 Spanishiwa wrote:
There is a huge 110 second window before he gets his speedling tech up where you'll have slowling vs slowling. Scouting during this time is very easy, and you'll be able to tell what he's doing. He'll need to start his expansion during this time for it to be anything other than a 1 base all in. So you'll see from there. And it's not that difficult to hide a zergling or two during this stage around the map so that you can use it for scouting purposes. Overlord sacs can work too to check drone saturation and # of geysers taken. If he opens 14g14p you wont have your Pool done for a good part of that "huge 110 second window". I just randomly clicked one of the ZvZ replays and checked the buildorder (it was 15h14p btw. and not 16h15p as stated in the OP). Your pool starts 2:40. Pool builds 65 seconds. Your first Lings start building at 3:45. They hatch 24 seconds later, at 4:09. Now it depends on the map how long they need to your opponents base. I'd say we can take an average of like 30s.so you arrive at 4:39, which is about 25 seconds before zergling speed finishes, so you MIGHT get one glimpse of the inside of his base. It doesnt really matter whether he starts an expansion, he can still continue to pump speedlings, or he switches to drones, you dont know. and the fact that you have no clue what your opponent is going to do makes this build bad in my eyes. Next problem: Usually against 14g14p your zerglings will arrive at your natural around the time your first zerglings spawn. Now im curious how you want to a) send scoutling to your opponents base and b) hide lings around the map for later scouting when your opponent is right at your natural pressuring to run in and kill drones or whatever. Remember your first Lings spawn 55 seconds before Lingspeed finishes, so there is not as much time as you think to do all that. I just dont see it working. Overlord sacs .. meh, i guess it can give you valuable information sometimes, but they are so slow and sometimes it will just put your further behind. If you message me on eu (atndarkforce.423) we can do some games and maybe i can prove my points in practise. On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that. On April 07 2011 00:57 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:20 spacebarbarian wrote:On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that. Hmm, I don't see how a terran could possibly expect to, and even if they tried, win a expand+saturate race against a zerg. Both droning and expanding is cheaper and faster for a Z, so if you see the T going for a third, then maybe just skip gas on the natural after the 40 food mark and expand again? I think the terran will eventually be playing catch up even if they have the head start from not getting those static defenses + the extra MULE. Well, this is your opinion. I think if you invest in static defense like this and if terran does not have to worry about early speedling attacks (super late gas) and he can very well compete and imo will even come out ahead against this build... On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:
Seven Roach Rush.
@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want. That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd. Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience. You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens). Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p On April 07 2011 18:26 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 18:20 themell wrote:On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:
Seven Roach Rush.
@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want. That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd. Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience. You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens). Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p It seems to me that you're just really biased against this build. I don't see how a 2 rax double expand could work. That's 800 minerals (and countless scvs) that aren't marines. You may have enough to contain the zerg, but once your "double expansion" happens, you have to pull back. Also, with a couple spine crawlers and queens, he can slowly move spine crawlers forward one at a time to crush any bunker contain. The only thing killing tumors will do is prevent mobility of ground units. As for vision and scouting, zerg still has overlords. At least one should be near the opponents base to scout, or at least by the expansion to see if the terran is expanding. Yes im really biased against this build because it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense. This is ok against a 1 basing opponent who goes for some kind of allin, but not against 2 or more bases. Also, not being able to spread creep means that terran will be able to push much faster later on, because he does not have to kill as much creep on the way. I dont know Spanishiwa at all, so its nothing personal, i just think that overvalueing this build will develop bad habits. On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:45 VictorX wrote:On April 08 2011 04:30 IPA wrote:
Loving these guys calling out DarkForce, a proven Euro Zerg power, like he doesn't know what he is talking about. "B-but it worked in my gold league!!"
I don't think he is calling out the build itself as terrible or useless, just that it builds habits that are counter-intuitive to the race's strengths. If you have a solid grasp of fundamentals and several different builds in your repertoire, there's no reason why you can't add this one. I wasn't trying to call out DarkForce, I know he is a pro, the guy's on liquipedia ;p I also have doubts about it's power in ZvZ, because I find being unable to scout the opponent constantly to be unnerving (because of the speed of a zerg push compared to terran and toss) I think what DarkForce is arguing is that giving up map control between 20 food and 50 food is bad, but I have found through playing in masters (now 30 games of experience) that after the dark period of 20-50 food is over, you end up with full saturation quicker, more map control, and more options. He is very right that the biggest problem is that it puts 0 pressure, therefor allowing a reactive opponent to out-macro you once he scouts that you are not taking gas at all. My solution so far is double expanding to match a quick third, or dedicating to heavy harassment. Whether this will fail me in the future is too early to tell, Spanishwa definitely has more experience on the weaknesses of the build against greedy econ play than I do. (he's already admitted it dies to 2rax all in) In a way Spanishwa's build is an econ risk. Something must be given up to secure such a quick economy, and that thing is total map control exerted by early speedlings. By cutting speedlings (cutting gas), you get more drones, faster. As to some people concerned about being unable to spread creep without lings, this is absolutely true. I find it very easy to simply spread creep around their army, into "tasteless secret hallway" and other alternative routes. Also it's not hard to just postpone creep, having active tumors stockpiled on the edge of his army, ready to push out as soon as your first two rounds of speedlings are moving out to re-establish map control. But a camped army in the middle of map denies creep like no other, and is definitely a weakness when you don't have enough creep to immediately and safely throw down a third against air play (queens can't get there) When you take gas as late as 40 you dont suddenly have Zerglingspeed finished at 50 supply. And mapcontrol without Zerglingspeed is not something that happens very often. taking gas at 40 means that it takes a little less than 3 more minutes (ingame time) until you have zergling speed done (after taking gas). so, at 2 hatcheries and 9 larvae per hatch per minute you should be at like 90 food when you finally have zergling speed. assuming a little over 1 supply per larvae. Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:52 OutlaW- wrote:On April 07 2011 18:26 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 07 2011 18:20 themell wrote:On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:
Seven Roach Rush.
@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want. That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd. Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience. You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens). Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p It seems to me that you're just really biased against this build. I don't see how a 2 rax double expand could work. That's 800 minerals (and countless scvs) that aren't marines. You may have enough to contain the zerg, but once your "double expansion" happens, you have to pull back. Also, with a couple spine crawlers and queens, he can slowly move spine crawlers forward one at a time to crush any bunker contain. The only thing killing tumors will do is prevent mobility of ground units. As for vision and scouting, zerg still has overlords. At least one should be near the opponents base to scout, or at least by the expansion to see if the terran is expanding. Yes im really biased against this build because it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense. This is ok against a 1 basing opponent who goes for some kind of allin, but not against 2 or more bases. Also, not being able to spread creep means that terran will be able to push much faster later on, because he does not have to kill as much creep on the way. I dont know Spanishiwa at all, so its nothing personal, i just think that overvalueing this build will develop bad habits. Your arguments are solid and I won't argue against them, but perhaps this is the mindset of Zergs keeping them from exploring new things? The fact that they have to work so hard to refine everything and then it just doesn't work maybe warps their sense of reality a bit, denying to try new things and explore the unknown? It's really hard to explain with words, but I feel that Spanishiwa and everyone else who is trying this build is definitely pushing starcraft further, regardless if this build turns out to have too big flaws or not. Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error. The thing is, as i said, this build is good against certain things (especially 1 base allins), but once a very good player has played against this 1-2 times he should be able to exploit it properly (faking aggression to force crawlers, expanding but denying the slowlings from scouting it early - on some maps you cant use ovis to scout his natural). Now you might say that it is a good build to play once in a series to surprise your opponent. But the problem with this is that your opponent will be able to keep his scouting worker alive until at least ~30 seconds after your pool finishes, that means, he will be able to see that even until then you have not taken your gas, thus he knows he will be very save. if you take gas after you have killed his worker in order to throw him off, it will take another 3:15 until you have zergling speed done, with which you could get aggressive. that is very late. On April 08 2011 18:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 12:08 JaqMs wrote:
I know hydras have gone out of style recently in ZvP, but could this build viably transition into a heavy queen/hydra army? Seems like it theoretically counters the deathball (queens vs colossi/void rays and hydras vs gateway units). Queens also seem to be better meatshields than roaches since they are, non-armored, bigger (less colossi AoE damage), and have transfuse. Movement speed shouldn't be a problem due to the build's immense creep spread. Perhaps queens could be loaded into overlords and create "flash" creep spread in the proximity of the opponent's base. No offense man, but what have you been smoking? How in gods name does Queen/Hydra counter colo+x :D? I mean, Queens do like no damage whatsoever, are super slow like hydras and both get melted by colossi. Also, good protoss players will deny alot of creepspread and due to your lack of mapcontrol with your build you cannot really prevent this. It really baffles me how people say that this build has good creep spread, sure, you have alot of extra queens, but only in lowlevel games this actually results in more creepspread. against competent opponents you need queens AND mapcontrol, otherwise your opponent will just walk up right outside your static defense and wait there and kill of any tumor that tries to spread out. Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.
Yes, dimaga uses this sometimes, i have actually practised some against him where he played something similar to this build, but i always came out a bit ahead after the early game (he also agreed on this). He still managed to win afterwards, but that was not due to his starting build, but one time due to me misspositioning my army and another time due to overdroning when i took the third and then dying to mass roach -_-. The thing in starcraft 2 is, even if you play an inferior build, you can still win, as people simply make many mistakes.. even at the top levels of play
This is so silly, you yourself haven't used the build outside ZvZ (and you probably haven't used it enough to execute it properly, but that's speculation) and you're quoting someone criticising the build who has never played it either. If you want to show that it doesn't work then beat spanishiwa three times in a row or something. You seem convinced that it doesn't work even though you rationally have no reason to, it's like you want it to not work. Why else would you quote all that stuff to try to support your argument that you're not qualified to make anyway?
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