|
On April 15 2011 00:25 Clamev wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 23:07 Essentia wrote:On April 14 2011 22:00 Azrael22 wrote:On April 14 2011 19:24 zeru wrote:
Why do zergs think they have they have the right cry about ZvP anyway, terrans have lower win rate against protoss than zerg in tournaments recently and you don't see them being little cry babies. Is there some side effect that you get by playing zerg which makes you think you should qq about imbalance everywhere? Man up.
The similarities drawn from brood war in this cast were perfect to compare what's going on, with getting urself in unwinnable scenarios, dropping vs zerg, etc. Yes, and the side effect is called Idra. I honestly think his balance qq has been one of the worst things for the mentality of the casual gamers. They hear him qq and think it must be true. I think it is safe to say that all 3 races still need to do a LOT of experimentation before this game is figured out. I play protoss, and while I agree protoss units don't generally do well vs other races in small numbers, warp prism harass has huge potential. Recently we're starting to see more heavy gateway styles against both terran and zerg, when until recently almost every build featured robo units. I feel as though stargate play has a lot of potential. One thing I've been curious about is incorporating carriers. I think a stargate focused play (read VR) while getting pretty early air upgrades could allow for a transition to carriers once you secure a 3rd. I feel like we might have seen a style like this come about, but before it did we saw the colo VR build that spawned all this imba deathball talk. There were several protoss around that time that focused on air and transitioned into colo later, which is why I said we might have seen that style come about. Yeah that's the biggest problem. Balance only becomes a deciding factor at the HIGHEST level of gaming. However, a gold level player who looks up to the top pros and sees them complain "OP OP" then they all start thinking it themselves in their own games when in reality they are probably losing because of mechanics or poor game decisions since they are not anywhere close to high level. When top pros complain about balance it causes a chain reaction down the food chain of gamers that even low level gamers think they are losing their games due to balance, but they are not. This is exactly the reason why i can´t take any balance argument from people on the forum(not known pro´s) seriously.People think way to much of themselves in terms of "understanding the game" .I´m sorry just because you are in masters does not mean you are very knowledgeable of the game. To compare Day9 once said that if you were A- in Iccup meant that you don´t have a good grasp of the game. And i´m sorry to tell you this but none of the people in masters play with the mechanics of an A-. In fact many Pro´s still suck at this game. Just to give you an example (and i don´t mean to bash Adelscott) but how is it that Adelscott can win with 1k in the bank afte like 10 inutes into the game? even someone like Tyler still has mineralspikes during fights.
Sorry dude but I noticed you specifically mentioned two protoss players in your example. With a fast expand build it's entirely possible to have 6+ warpgates after 10 mins (although that was probably an exageration on your part), If you are wanting to produce stalkers out of them you will need to be floating at least 750 minerals at some point in the game, throw in the couple of pylons to support the production and your at 950. Having technically 50 minerals in the bank isn't bad mechanics. You are basically saying he is bad because he has to use warpgates instead of queuing the units so the money is magically gone, do you realise how stupid that sounds?
People need to realise this game isn't BW, and the dynamics of the game are completely different.
Also your whole argumnent is a classic "Appeal to accomplishment" fallacy. You don't have to be a pro to "understand the game" as you put it, you may be a mastermind of SC2 but just not have the handspeed / dexterity / time / want to go pro. Saying that people can't discuss balance unless they are in the GSL for example is rediculous. Similarly saying EVERYONE WHO IS MASTERS COULD NEVER BE A- is... yeah...
|
On April 15 2011 01:15 Sakarabu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 00:25 Clamev wrote:On April 14 2011 23:07 Essentia wrote:On April 14 2011 22:00 Azrael22 wrote:On April 14 2011 19:24 zeru wrote:
Why do zergs think they have they have the right cry about ZvP anyway, terrans have lower win rate against protoss than zerg in tournaments recently and you don't see them being little cry babies. Is there some side effect that you get by playing zerg which makes you think you should qq about imbalance everywhere? Man up.
The similarities drawn from brood war in this cast were perfect to compare what's going on, with getting urself in unwinnable scenarios, dropping vs zerg, etc. Yes, and the side effect is called Idra. I honestly think his balance qq has been one of the worst things for the mentality of the casual gamers. They hear him qq and think it must be true. I think it is safe to say that all 3 races still need to do a LOT of experimentation before this game is figured out. I play protoss, and while I agree protoss units don't generally do well vs other races in small numbers, warp prism harass has huge potential. Recently we're starting to see more heavy gateway styles against both terran and zerg, when until recently almost every build featured robo units. I feel as though stargate play has a lot of potential. One thing I've been curious about is incorporating carriers. I think a stargate focused play (read VR) while getting pretty early air upgrades could allow for a transition to carriers once you secure a 3rd. I feel like we might have seen a style like this come about, but before it did we saw the colo VR build that spawned all this imba deathball talk. There were several protoss around that time that focused on air and transitioned into colo later, which is why I said we might have seen that style come about. Yeah that's the biggest problem. Balance only becomes a deciding factor at the HIGHEST level of gaming. However, a gold level player who looks up to the top pros and sees them complain "OP OP" then they all start thinking it themselves in their own games when in reality they are probably losing because of mechanics or poor game decisions since they are not anywhere close to high level. When top pros complain about balance it causes a chain reaction down the food chain of gamers that even low level gamers think they are losing their games due to balance, but they are not. This is exactly the reason why i can´t take any balance argument from people on the forum(not known pro´s) seriously.People think way to much of themselves in terms of "understanding the game" .I´m sorry just because you are in masters does not mean you are very knowledgeable of the game. To compare Day9 once said that if you were A- in Iccup meant that you don´t have a good grasp of the game. And i´m sorry to tell you this but none of the people in masters play with the mechanics of an A-. In fact many Pro´s still suck at this game. Just to give you an example (and i don´t mean to bash Adelscott) but how is it that Adelscott can win with 1k in the bank afte like 10 inutes into the game? even someone like Tyler still has mineralspikes during fights. Sorry dude but I noticed you specifically mentioned two protoss players in your example. With a fast expand build it's entirely possible to have 6+ warpgates after 10 mins (although that was probably an exageration on your part), If you are wanting to produce stalkers out of them you will need to be floating at least 750 minerals at some point in the game, throw in the couple of pylons to support the production and your at 950. Having technically 50 minerals in the bank isn't bad mechanics. You are basically saying he is bad because he has to use warpgates instead of queuing the units so the money is magically gone, do you realise how stupid that sounds?People need to realise this game isn't BW, and the dynamics of the game are completely different. Also your whole argumnent is a classic "Appeal to accomplishment" fallacy. You don't have to be a pro to "understand the game" as you put it, you may be a mastermind of SC2 but just not have the handspeed / dexterity / time / want to go pro. Saying that people can't discuss balance unless they are in the GSL for example is rediculous. Similarly saying EVERYONE WHO IS MASTERS COULD NEVER BE A- is... yeah...
Hey dude, I wanted to say you oppened my mind right now, this is pretty smart.
|
On April 15 2011 01:15 Sakarabu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 00:25 Clamev wrote:On April 14 2011 23:07 Essentia wrote:On April 14 2011 22:00 Azrael22 wrote:On April 14 2011 19:24 zeru wrote:
Why do zergs think they have they have the right cry about ZvP anyway, terrans have lower win rate against protoss than zerg in tournaments recently and you don't see them being little cry babies. Is there some side effect that you get by playing zerg which makes you think you should qq about imbalance everywhere? Man up.
The similarities drawn from brood war in this cast were perfect to compare what's going on, with getting urself in unwinnable scenarios, dropping vs zerg, etc. Yes, and the side effect is called Idra. I honestly think his balance qq has been one of the worst things for the mentality of the casual gamers. They hear him qq and think it must be true. I think it is safe to say that all 3 races still need to do a LOT of experimentation before this game is figured out. I play protoss, and while I agree protoss units don't generally do well vs other races in small numbers, warp prism harass has huge potential. Recently we're starting to see more heavy gateway styles against both terran and zerg, when until recently almost every build featured robo units. I feel as though stargate play has a lot of potential. One thing I've been curious about is incorporating carriers. I think a stargate focused play (read VR) while getting pretty early air upgrades could allow for a transition to carriers once you secure a 3rd. I feel like we might have seen a style like this come about, but before it did we saw the colo VR build that spawned all this imba deathball talk. There were several protoss around that time that focused on air and transitioned into colo later, which is why I said we might have seen that style come about. Yeah that's the biggest problem. Balance only becomes a deciding factor at the HIGHEST level of gaming. However, a gold level player who looks up to the top pros and sees them complain "OP OP" then they all start thinking it themselves in their own games when in reality they are probably losing because of mechanics or poor game decisions since they are not anywhere close to high level. When top pros complain about balance it causes a chain reaction down the food chain of gamers that even low level gamers think they are losing their games due to balance, but they are not. This is exactly the reason why i can´t take any balance argument from people on the forum(not known pro´s) seriously.People think way to much of themselves in terms of "understanding the game" .I´m sorry just because you are in masters does not mean you are very knowledgeable of the game. To compare Day9 once said that if you were A- in Iccup meant that you don´t have a good grasp of the game. And i´m sorry to tell you this but none of the people in masters play with the mechanics of an A-. In fact many Pro´s still suck at this game. Just to give you an example (and i don´t mean to bash Adelscott) but how is it that Adelscott can win with 1k in the bank afte like 10 inutes into the game? even someone like Tyler still has mineralspikes during fights. Sorry dude but I noticed you specifically mentioned two protoss players in your example. With a fast expand build it's entirely possible to have 6+ warpgates after 10 mins (although that was probably an exageration on your part), If you are wanting to produce stalkers out of them you will need to be floating at least 750 minerals at some point in the game, throw in the couple of pylons to support the production and your at 950. Having technically 50 minerals in the bank isn't bad mechanics. You are basically saying he is bad because he has to use warpgates instead of queuing the units so the money is magically gone, do you realise how stupid that sounds? People need to realise this game isn't BW, and the dynamics of the game are completely different. Also your whole argumnent is a classic "Appeal to accomplishment" fallacy. You don't have to be a pro to "understand the game" as you put it, you may be a mastermind of SC2 but just not have the handspeed / dexterity / time / want to go pro. Saying that people can't discuss balance unless they are in the GSL for example is rediculous. Similarly saying EVERYONE WHO IS MASTERS COULD NEVER BE A- is... yeah...
But Adel did not spike in minerals he was consistently floating around 1k minerals.
It is not "Appeal to accomplishment" . I don´t care if anyone won anything or not . I just care if they know what the fuck they are talking about.
If you wanted to build a brige would you talk to a baker or a engineer who has studied his shit for years? yeah i thought so.
As for the part of "being a mastermind of SC" i´m sorry but how exactly can you now the ins and outs of every timing and little economy managment if you don´t have the time put in to get the handspeed?
"Similarly saying EVERYONE WHO IS MASTERS COULD NEVER BE A- is... yeah..."
yeah pretty good argument.
EDIT: I also noted that you misquoted me.I never said that Everyone in Masters could never be A.
What i said was People that are in Masters right now don´t have the mechanics of an A- player.
Talking about classic fallacies . . .
|
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats"
|
|
|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop.
Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay.
IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is.
incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus.
And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer.
Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!)
In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill.
|
|
|
I honestly cannot over-emphasize the person who said that QQ'ing pro zergs (idra in particular) are having a really negative effect on not only the state of the game, but more importantly zerg development as a whole. I mean we all remember the protoss slump back when roaches were buffed? who remembers MC getting completely demolished like a gold level player by some zerg?
MC didnt blame balance, despite a balance patch coming out days before and causing his loss. He just blamed it on himself. Likewise with huk's mentality at that time. Protoss players evolved over that time frame because they blamed themselves for the loss despite the few QQers. Now as far as zerg goes, everytime they face even a slight slump they all march in an orderly fashion behind their ring leader and begin their chants and destruction of every single LR. Ever Terran imo has more of a right to whine than zergs but they don't do it. They're getting demolished left and right by blizzard and other races alike but they still cope with and come up with all these sick strats ...ex: 2 rak CC.
If we actually look over sc2 short history post beta, zerg players (sorry for the generalization) have whined about almost everything and blizzard has sadly spoiled them. Only a few things did merit changes(reapers) but zerg got all their requests yet the whines continue.
Demand 1: Nerf terran and we will be happy
Blizzard: Tanks do 35(50 armoured) now instead of flat out 50
Demand 2: Nerf reapers/bunkers and we will be happy
Blizzard: reapers/bunkers nerfed
Demand 3: nerf early zealot rushes and we will be happy
Blizzard" nerfed zealot built time
Demand 4: Blizzard remake every single map of yours and make them bigger=zerg balanced
Blizzard: Remakes almost every single map except zerg favorite maps.
Demand 5: nerf HT
Blizzard" ht nerfed.
Yet the whines still continue. Honestly zergs just need to get out of this whole im losing because of balance mentality or they'll be whining for years to come. Its the most detrimental factor in the ZvT,ZvP match ups.
edit: Gunman_csz, see your problem is that you dont even understand the game or why people even say such things such as "infestors are imbalance pvz". You're so biased you can't even look at the game in an objective manner. Let me show you why Day9 probably said infestors in their current state are rather imbalanced pvz.
Almost every single late-game protoss army VS zerg requires you to be clumped up to avoid surrounds. Let it be a void/collusus/stalker comp, immortal/archon/zealot/ht, or whichever, most are clumps of units. Now when you have a unit like the infestor which can completely destroyed 200 food worth of protoss army in 3-4 consecutive fungal casts with proper micro and decent apm. The only thing zerg gives away is a possible 3-4 infestors which might have been sniped off by the collusi range. We havent seen clutch infestor play so far, but wait for the next gsl or some other more competitive tournament. The infestor will shine bright when people get more accustomed to using it on a regular basis.
|
On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus.
It's as if you didn't listen at all to what they were saying about the Nydus. Please re-listen to that segment because they addressed exactly what you're saying.
It seems like people just start raging at some point when they listen to SotG talk about a topic and then stop listening to any of the content because they're fixated on something that was said before and start to have a rage mind.
"God they're talking about BW again, this isn't BW blah blah" and then you just stop listening to what they're saying. You're right, this isn't BW, but they're just trying to draw an analogy that may or may not be applicable to this game. They played BW a lot and of course will try to piggy back that hard work and thinking into this game to try to come up with strategies. And like Day[9] said, some of his ideas from BW are just not applicable and loses him games, but it's a starting point, and a very important one.
Also, all the suggestions SotG members make about zerg play are just suggestions. They believe they aren't seeing enough of something from zergs and don't know if it's good or bad, but aspects of the game still need to be explored more thoroughly. Just because Day[9] says infestors are really good or whatever doesn't imply he's telling zergs that infestors are the key to winning PvZ, it's just suggesting that people should try it more to see if it is the key or not.
|
Why did JP want to pull the plug?
|
Many valid points in here...
I do agree that zerg need to stop playing their race as they feel it "should" be and start playing it like it actually is in the game. Sheth recently put on a clinic in a 600 food push that literally gives me nightmares as a protoss player. There are tons of arguments to be made about HOW he pulled it off and that it's not usual to be able to....and fair enough, Starcraft II is definitely shaping up to be a situational game where once things have swung too far... you can no longer win. It's just up to all of the races to figure out what situations favour them, and how to force the game into these positions.
The nydus play def seems underused. I don't think Nydus are very useful for back-base harass.... it's been mentioned that they are too slow, too noisy and too obvious... and I have to agree with this. But Nydus networks between bases and various worms out on the map allow zerg to insta-hit a protoss deathball from all sides and eliminate collosi nearly instantly. The same strategy could seriously screw up seige tanks as well if you time the approach correctly.
There's so much left to explore with the game that talking about imbalance at the moment seriously detracts from the evolution of play. From what I gleamed from the convo... that was the point they were making. Pro gamers aren't game developers/designers..... it's a completely different skillset. Sometimes the pros will be able to highlight areas for the designers to look at, but ultimately this stuff will be hammered out over time. There are ways for each race to dominate at the moment, and these ways will likely diversify as time goes on. Definitely an interesting take from the guys on SotG though. Zerg is definitely a different beast to play (it feels almost like another game when I play them!) but they definitely have the power to dominate and win..... react and push the pace. They are also the race of hard counters... I almost went zerg, but sadly my mind just doesn't work well when playing them.,.. I may swap one day :D
|
On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill.
Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played --
|
On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill.
Why does every zerg player think they have to nydus into the enemy base to use it effectively?
Need a perfect wall in your third base? Select 5 drones, shift queue some spine crawlers and an evo chamber, herp derp.
|
On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers.
Yeah, let's ignore one of the best foreign BW players just because he's got a fun light-hearted personality and gives the best advice any player who isn't a professional (and probably even some that are, nowadays) can get. Clearly he knows nothing about being a competitive player. You'd probably ignore Mondragon as well then, especially if he told you to build Roaches against Void Rays, right? -_-
IdrA was never in his career known as a very cerebral, progressive player whose knowledge "far surpasses" everybody else, so you pulled that statement out of nowhere. He's the exact opposite - a player who can be extremely successful due to mechanics and execution, but don't hold your breath expecting him to evolve or far be it revolutionize Zerg gameplay.
|
On April 14 2011 15:17 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 00:15 Inky87 wrote:
I think if Blizzard kept balancing the game around strategies, this game would be boring as shit.
The fact of the matter is that zerg has strengths that the other races don't. You have unlimited freedom with build orders, supreme mobility, among other things. Yeah zergs 200 army doesn't stack up well against protoss and it shouldn't. Have you ever seen a midgame zerg timing attack that worked? Looks about as "OP" as voidray collosus.
I really do believe that zergs aren't being creative enough and scouting enough. (Something that could be remedied if zergs would get their lair earlier) Do you really not see the various "cute" "surprise" tactics zergs trying out when they fight toss? (albeit with very low success ratio) And actually that's how Fruitdealer plays v. P these days. He gave up on "normal" games against P, and he does all kinds of weird shit. Most of them fail, and people laugh at him, of course. Now, let's flip the coin - How much "creativity" do you see from the current Protoss play? Honest answer, plz.
A lot. MC's no collosus blink stalker vs July was pretty creative.
|
On April 15 2011 02:13 sekritzzz wrote:Yet the whines still continue. Honestly zergs just need to get out of this whole im losing because of balance mentality or they'll be whining for years to come. Its the most detrimental factor in the ZvT,ZvP match ups.
So why are Zerg whining? Because of IdrA?
What are the odds that the majority of the players most pre-disposed to whine all picked Zerg?
|
On April 15 2011 02:32 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 01:58 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 15 2011 01:41 zeru wrote:On April 15 2011 01:31 aderum wrote:
I like how everybody just asumes that just b/c idras complaines, that he doesnt try to find new strats.. There was a post from him a while ago saying something like:
"Do you really think that if you job is to play a game, that you dont try to be the best at every aspect of that game? just b/c i complain doesnt mean i dont try to find new strats" No one takes idra serious when he cries about balance, except his idralings. He complained about balance non stop, even in BW about terran, he has cried since the dawn of time and i doubt anyone will ever expect it to stop. Yes but lets take Day9s 40overseers and mass queens / infestors / nydus seriously... or his assertion that infestors are imba in pvz (LOL OMG). I can't wait till he plays the game more competitively and see what he can actually apply in his own gameplay. IdrA might be overly loud about imbalance, but his RTS knowledge far surpasses 99.999percent of all the sc2 programers. And he isn't the only one complaining about balance, the entire pro zerg community is. incontrol and nony kept drawing parallels from broodwar, but the game is so different. Nydus do not work because pylon give u the entire vision of the base, nydus spews units 1 at a time, makes a loud sound, is expensive, and above all dies in 2 seconds when focused fire, at least in broodwar you had darkswarm to protect the nydus. And add to that, shiftque makes the protoss race so easy in terms of mechanics that you don't even need high speed or multitasking any longer. Need a perfect wall on your 3rd base? No problem select one probe from the main base shift-que to the 3rd base, que 3gateways, 2canons, rally the probe back. (u can do all this in a blink of an eye and go back to your army !!!) In broodwar even top pros screwed up with the wall and got punished for it, you had to pay attention and spend hours mastering the skill. Queens, lings, infestor, ultra/broodlord plus 3/3 melee upgrades is viable, but it requires astonishing control and multitasking. Spanishiwa and to a less degree Vibe, play it at a high level with relative success... it plays zerg the way it's supposed to be played, multiple expansions for high gas and low drone count for low mineral. Zerg just needs someone like Jaedong -- and not a B-teamer like Idra -- to start shinning and being entertaining again -- sick tired of watching mass mutas against T and mass roaches against P, that's NOT the way Zerg is supposed to be played --
If spanish and vibe are "playing zerg correctly", why are they not beating top players?
spanishiwa's build gets totally DESTROYED by a player like incontrol (who is maybe a top 3 protoss) on his stream with little difficulty. it's a ladder style, something that does not work in the highest level of the game. You presume that no top zerg has ever tried things like this over the last year
|
On April 15 2011 02:19 Kajean wrote:
Also, all the suggestions SotG members make about zerg play are just suggestions. They believe they aren't seeing enough of something from zergs and don't know if it's good or bad, but aspects of the game still need to be explored more thoroughly. Just because Day[9] says infestors are really good or whatever doesn't imply he's telling zergs that infestors are the key to winning PvZ, it's just suggesting that people should try it more to see if it is the key or not.
That bolded part is especially important seeing as we just had a patch that buffed the infestor. Did all zergs suddenly forget that or something? It's not like the state of the game has been static for the last 9 months. Patches have been coming all the time. It is ridiculous to think that Zergs have discovered everything there is in 9 months time considering that the balance has been shifting constantly throughout that time due to patches and not necessarily just evolving play. That is the part that really annoys me.
I mean of all the times to have a balance issue, zergs are doing it right after a patch that helped them. The reason Day[9] and others have been talking about the infestor specifically is because it got buffed and Zergs have yet to use the new buffed infestor to its full potential. It seems like a pretty logical thing to ask to hold off on the balance whine before even the most simple of exploration is done with the new patch >_<.
|
On April 15 2011 02:34 Talin wrote:
IdrA was never in his career known as a very cerebral, progressive player whose knowledge "far surpasses" everybody else, so you pulled that statement out of nowhere. He's the exact opposite - a player who can be extremely successful due to mechanics and execution, but don't hold your breath expecting him to evolve or far be it revolutionize Zerg gameplay.
Exactly, if anything he was made fun by the community of for being pretty robotic in his builds, which in turn made him predictable and fairly prone to cheese... and he had the exact same reaction when he'd lose.. he'd blame on balance.. enough of his antics already, the guy is pretty much a has-been now that players with better decision making and imagination are catching up in mechanics.
|
On April 15 2011 02:37 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 02:13 sekritzzz wrote:Yet the whines still continue. Honestly zergs just need to get out of this whole im losing because of balance mentality or they'll be whining for years to come. Its the most detrimental factor in the ZvT,ZvP match ups. So why are Zerg whining? Because of IdrA? What are the odds that the majority of the players most pre-disposed to whine all picked Zerg?
They're not pre-disposted to whine, it's just mass psychology.
Best Zerg players are going through a problematic period, one of the best Zerg players is very outspoken and has pretty extreme views about it, players lower down the battle.net ladder for the most part copy the way pro players play and encounter similar difficulties. Ultimately, crying about imbalance is just an easy way to vent and deal with losses, especially when you can easily justify it by saying that pro players complain as well.
Sometimes having an active, centralized online community can be a bad thing too. It could happen to any race - in fact around GSL2 time there was an increase in Protoss balance complaint threads (just before MC won a starleague and around the time when Genius said he would change his race if Protoss didn't get buffs - see the pattern here?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
