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On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable?
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On April 14 2011 17:06 Piski wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable?
Nydus network + worm costs more than Hydra den + grooved spines, or burrow + tunneling claws. You still need either of those two to hold a midgame push. If you spend 300 gas on Nydus that's 6 Hydras or 12 Roaches less. You need to do a lot of damage to justify that, but Zerg doesn't exactly have the best ground units for hit and run attacks and a 2-basing Protoss doesn't need to leave much in his base to be safe against Nydus. If he has proper vision of his base a single zealot, or even a few probes will kill it in time. Can it work? Yes, but it's not a way to consistently win games and the threat of the nydus doesn't create the same type of reaction that, for example, the threat of mutalisks do. It takes very little to be safe from in-base nyduses.
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On April 14 2011 19:21 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 17:06 Piski wrote:On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable? Nydus network + worm costs more than Hydra den + grooved spines, or burrow + tunneling claws. You still need either of those two to hold a midgame push. If you spend 300 gas on Nydus that's 6 Hydras or 12 Roaches less. You need to do a lot of damage to justify that, but Zerg doesn't exactly have the best ground units for hit and run attacks and a 2-basing Protoss doesn't need to leave much in his base to be safe against Nydus. If he has proper vision of his base a single zealot, or even a few probes will kill it in time. Can it work? Yes, but it's not a way to consistently win games and the threat of the nydus doesn't create the same type of reaction that, for example, the threat of mutalisks do. It takes very little to be safe from in-base nyduses.
i think they were talking about late game in the cast buddy...
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On April 14 2011 19:28 zasda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 19:21 hugman wrote:On April 14 2011 17:06 Piski wrote:On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable? Nydus network + worm costs more than Hydra den + grooved spines, or burrow + tunneling claws. You still need either of those two to hold a midgame push. If you spend 300 gas on Nydus that's 6 Hydras or 12 Roaches less. You need to do a lot of damage to justify that, but Zerg doesn't exactly have the best ground units for hit and run attacks and a 2-basing Protoss doesn't need to leave much in his base to be safe against Nydus. If he has proper vision of his base a single zealot, or even a few probes will kill it in time. Can it work? Yes, but it's not a way to consistently win games and the threat of the nydus doesn't create the same type of reaction that, for example, the threat of mutalisks do. It takes very little to be safe from in-base nyduses. i think they were talking about late game in the cast buddy...
Unlike you I both listened to the show and read the conversation thread I was replying to
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Is it just me or are the mp3 downloads slooooooooooooooow as fuck ?
It goes at no more than 20-30KBps for me, and its not my internet I can download other stuff up to 2MBps. Anyone know whats up with their download site ?
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On April 14 2011 21:10 spacebarbarian wrote:
Is it just me or are the mp3 downloads slooooooooooooooow as fuck ?
It goes at no more than 20-30KBps for me, and its not my internet I can download other stuff up to 2MBps. Anyone know whats up with their download site ?
I dont know the precise problem for u, bur usually u have to pause the download and then press "play" again. For a few seconds it goes very fast and then when it slows down press pause and play again.
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On April 14 2011 19:21 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 17:06 Piski wrote:On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable? Nydus network + worm costs more than Hydra den + grooved spines, or burrow + tunneling claws. You still need either of those two to hold a midgame push. If you spend 300 gas on Nydus that's 6 Hydras or 12 Roaches less. You need to do a lot of damage to justify that, but Zerg doesn't exactly have the best ground units for hit and run attacks and a 2-basing Protoss doesn't need to leave much in his base to be safe against Nydus. If he has proper vision of his base a single zealot, or even a few probes will kill it in time. Can it work? Yes, but it's not a way to consistently win games and the threat of the nydus doesn't create the same type of reaction that, for example, the threat of mutalisks do. It takes very little to be safe from in-base nyduses.
and who says you cant make roaches to prepare for a midgame push but use them with drop / nydus if it dosnt happen? What you are saying is that Rushing for nydus is bad and i doubt many would disagree.
What people are saying is that once protoss moves beyond two bases you can start employing nydus or drop to exploit the fact that most of the time protoss will have all units in one big blob formation.
if it can work then good players will make it work.
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On April 14 2011 16:53 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:51 ditkaordie wrote:On April 14 2011 14:46 Thrombozyt wrote:
Did Incontrol spoil his NASL results prior to the broadcast?
In the SotG he said something along the lines of "I'm really looking forward to the broadcast of my match against Ensnare tomorrow". Judging by the White-Ra troubles, games were arlready played at that point... + Show Spoiler +no this is not a spoiler... he will be excited about and look forward to everyday of the NASL regardless of whether or not he wins/loses/plays/casts... do you really think he would give spoilers about his own tourney to 9000 listeners? Well Mr. Fanboi, we will see if Incontrol will a) state something similar every SotG now because he is excited for every day of NASL and if b) he will be especially looking forward to a broadcast where he got absolutely destroyed in the games. If a) and b) are correct, than I will retract my statement and admit that your interpretation was the correct one. As for your oh so clever spoiler - apparently some people are able to read between the lines and some people haven't reached that point in their development yet...
I am no fanboi, i am not an incontrol fan, I am a fan of NASL and the Foreign SC2 scene. I just have this unbelievable power to read these forums and notice that;
a. you're the only one that came to this conclusion
b. you only came to this conclusion after he won
with a hypersensitive community just as SC2 and TL, wouldn't you think there would be more uproar about this or maybe me and the other 8000+ listeners of SOTG are just not "clever" enough to read between the lines.
he plays cruncher next week and then within hours hops on SOTG and while he may not say verbatim what he said (it is the opening week and the first time he gets to talk about the actual tournament happening on air) i will put my neck out there and say he'll still be excited about the NASL
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Can somebody explain to me why Artosis just left? Did he only came to the show to do the intro? I missed the pre-show and he just disappears from the show. Something with his head being split in two... I didn't completely understand it.
The best 5 minutes in the entire show were Incontrol was teasing Artosis. SOOO funny.
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On April 14 2011 21:18 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 19:21 hugman wrote:On April 14 2011 17:06 Piski wrote:On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable? Nydus network + worm costs more than Hydra den + grooved spines, or burrow + tunneling claws. You still need either of those two to hold a midgame push. If you spend 300 gas on Nydus that's 6 Hydras or 12 Roaches less. You need to do a lot of damage to justify that, but Zerg doesn't exactly have the best ground units for hit and run attacks and a 2-basing Protoss doesn't need to leave much in his base to be safe against Nydus. If he has proper vision of his base a single zealot, or even a few probes will kill it in time. Can it work? Yes, but it's not a way to consistently win games and the threat of the nydus doesn't create the same type of reaction that, for example, the threat of mutalisks do. It takes very little to be safe from in-base nyduses. and who says you cant make roaches to prepare for a midgame push but use them with drop / nydus if it dosnt happen? What you are saying is that Rushing for nydus is bad and i doubt many would disagree. What people are saying is that once protoss moves beyond two bases you can start employing nydus or drop to exploit the fact that most of the time protoss will have all units in one big blob formation. if it can work then good players will make it work.
I'm not saying it can never be used, it's just not a silver bullet -.-
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Once protoss moves beyond two bases you have lost the game. All the talk about lategame nydus and whatnot are moot because you cannot allow lategame to happen. This is my problem with zvp.
I obviously do not have solid evidence to support this, but all the games where we have seen drops work it was rushed. In every other game zerg lost.
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On April 14 2011 21:32 Koshi wrote:
Can somebody explain to me why Artosis just left? Did he only came to the show to do the intro? I missed the pre-show and he just disappears from the show. Something with his head being split in two... I didn't completely understand it.
The best 5 minutes in the entire show were Incontrol was teasing Artosis. SOOO funny.
Artosis is trying to get into Grand masters and is having a hard time doing so. He thought he would coz of his hidden rating and the players he faced making it seem like he would be getting in without too big a problem but that was not the case and he also went on a pretty significant losing streak just as he was about to do the show. Needles to say it made him pretty fucking frustrated and mad and not really in a mood. Then with the teasing and that only the top 200 make it into Grand masters and players are rotated as a new season starts(or someone accumulates enough bonus pool but good luck with that when it's about grand masters)..yeah kind of hard to focus on anything else 
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On April 14 2011 19:24 zeru wrote:
Why do zergs think they have they have the right cry about ZvP anyway, terrans have lower win rate against protoss than zerg in tournaments recently and you don't see them being little cry babies. Is there some side effect that you get by playing zerg which makes you think you should qq about imbalance everywhere? Man up.
The similarities drawn from brood war in this cast were perfect to compare what's going on, with getting urself in unwinnable scenarios, dropping vs zerg, etc.
Yes, and the side effect is called Idra. I honestly think his balance qq has been one of the worst things for the mentality of the casual gamers. They hear him qq and think it must be true.
I think it is safe to say that all 3 races still need to do a LOT of experimentation before this game is figured out. I play protoss, and while I agree protoss units don't generally do well vs other races in small numbers, warp prism harass has huge potential. Recently we're starting to see more heavy gateway styles against both terran and zerg, when until recently almost every build featured robo units.
I feel as though stargate play has a lot of potential. One thing I've been curious about is incorporating carriers. I think a stargate focused play (read VR) while getting pretty early air upgrades could allow for a transition to carriers once you secure a 3rd. I feel like we might have seen a style like this come about, but before it did we saw the colo VR build that spawned all this imba deathball talk. There were several protoss around that time that focused on air and transitioned into colo later, which is why I said we might have seen that style come about.
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Just saw the 34th episode and i loved it, once again thanks alot for doing these. Don't ever stop!
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On April 14 2011 21:35 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 21:18 Madkipz wrote:On April 14 2011 19:21 hugman wrote:On April 14 2011 17:06 Piski wrote:On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable? Nydus network + worm costs more than Hydra den + grooved spines, or burrow + tunneling claws. You still need either of those two to hold a midgame push. If you spend 300 gas on Nydus that's 6 Hydras or 12 Roaches less. You need to do a lot of damage to justify that, but Zerg doesn't exactly have the best ground units for hit and run attacks and a 2-basing Protoss doesn't need to leave much in his base to be safe against Nydus. If he has proper vision of his base a single zealot, or even a few probes will kill it in time. Can it work? Yes, but it's not a way to consistently win games and the threat of the nydus doesn't create the same type of reaction that, for example, the threat of mutalisks do. It takes very little to be safe from in-base nyduses. and who says you cant make roaches to prepare for a midgame push but use them with drop / nydus if it dosnt happen? What you are saying is that Rushing for nydus is bad and i doubt many would disagree. What people are saying is that once protoss moves beyond two bases you can start employing nydus or drop to exploit the fact that most of the time protoss will have all units in one big blob formation. if it can work then good players will make it work. I'm not saying it can never be used, it's just not a silver bullet -.-
The counter argument is that protoss puts cannons everywhere and just counterattacks though.
PROTOSSS -.-
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On April 14 2011 22:52 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 21:35 hugman wrote:On April 14 2011 21:18 Madkipz wrote:On April 14 2011 19:21 hugman wrote:On April 14 2011 17:06 Piski wrote:On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable? Nydus network + worm costs more than Hydra den + grooved spines, or burrow + tunneling claws. You still need either of those two to hold a midgame push. If you spend 300 gas on Nydus that's 6 Hydras or 12 Roaches less. You need to do a lot of damage to justify that, but Zerg doesn't exactly have the best ground units for hit and run attacks and a 2-basing Protoss doesn't need to leave much in his base to be safe against Nydus. If he has proper vision of his base a single zealot, or even a few probes will kill it in time. Can it work? Yes, but it's not a way to consistently win games and the threat of the nydus doesn't create the same type of reaction that, for example, the threat of mutalisks do. It takes very little to be safe from in-base nyduses. and who says you cant make roaches to prepare for a midgame push but use them with drop / nydus if it dosnt happen? What you are saying is that Rushing for nydus is bad and i doubt many would disagree. What people are saying is that once protoss moves beyond two bases you can start employing nydus or drop to exploit the fact that most of the time protoss will have all units in one big blob formation. if it can work then good players will make it work. I'm not saying it can never be used, it's just not a silver bullet -.- The counter argument is that protoss puts cannons everywhere and just counterattacks though. PROTOSSS -.-
Cannons, like Protoss units, are free.
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On April 14 2011 22:52 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 21:35 hugman wrote:On April 14 2011 21:18 Madkipz wrote:On April 14 2011 19:21 hugman wrote:On April 14 2011 17:06 Piski wrote:On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable? Nydus network + worm costs more than Hydra den + grooved spines, or burrow + tunneling claws. You still need either of those two to hold a midgame push. If you spend 300 gas on Nydus that's 6 Hydras or 12 Roaches less. You need to do a lot of damage to justify that, but Zerg doesn't exactly have the best ground units for hit and run attacks and a 2-basing Protoss doesn't need to leave much in his base to be safe against Nydus. If he has proper vision of his base a single zealot, or even a few probes will kill it in time. Can it work? Yes, but it's not a way to consistently win games and the threat of the nydus doesn't create the same type of reaction that, for example, the threat of mutalisks do. It takes very little to be safe from in-base nyduses. and who says you cant make roaches to prepare for a midgame push but use them with drop / nydus if it dosnt happen? What you are saying is that Rushing for nydus is bad and i doubt many would disagree. What people are saying is that once protoss moves beyond two bases you can start employing nydus or drop to exploit the fact that most of the time protoss will have all units in one big blob formation. if it can work then good players will make it work. I'm not saying it can never be used, it's just not a silver bullet -.- The counter argument is that protoss puts cannons everywhere and just counterattacks though. PROTOSSS -.-
Yes, everybody is speaking like it is some kind of SC 1.2 while it's SC2 that we are playing... wake up. Drop are so good because they negate simcity on many maps, but they don't work on a lot of maps. In SC2 even the most noob can put a perfect wall of, it's easy to just block your base with some game, pylon and a bunch of photon canon behind. Attacking a 3rd with a bunch of ling is not possible, counter in most case are just not a possibility.
Most of the time, at some point, you have to take the death ball head on, and you got to be a protoss to think you can avoid it forever like Tyler and Incontrol say.
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On April 14 2011 22:55 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 22:52 Madkipz wrote:On April 14 2011 21:35 hugman wrote:On April 14 2011 21:18 Madkipz wrote:On April 14 2011 19:21 hugman wrote:On April 14 2011 17:06 Piski wrote:On April 14 2011 13:35 dementrio wrote:
I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
Can you actually back your sayings in any way? Pro replays or some concrete calculations or something at least. Right it's you just claiming a lot of things. Like that if you invest in a drop or nydus that it's an instaloss against warpgate timings? Any real proof beyond your few games that it's undefendable? Nydus network + worm costs more than Hydra den + grooved spines, or burrow + tunneling claws. You still need either of those two to hold a midgame push. If you spend 300 gas on Nydus that's 6 Hydras or 12 Roaches less. You need to do a lot of damage to justify that, but Zerg doesn't exactly have the best ground units for hit and run attacks and a 2-basing Protoss doesn't need to leave much in his base to be safe against Nydus. If he has proper vision of his base a single zealot, or even a few probes will kill it in time. Can it work? Yes, but it's not a way to consistently win games and the threat of the nydus doesn't create the same type of reaction that, for example, the threat of mutalisks do. It takes very little to be safe from in-base nyduses. and who says you cant make roaches to prepare for a midgame push but use them with drop / nydus if it dosnt happen? What you are saying is that Rushing for nydus is bad and i doubt many would disagree. What people are saying is that once protoss moves beyond two bases you can start employing nydus or drop to exploit the fact that most of the time protoss will have all units in one big blob formation. if it can work then good players will make it work. I'm not saying it can never be used, it's just not a silver bullet -.- The counter argument is that protoss puts cannons everywhere and just counterattacks though. PROTOSSS -.- Cannons, like Protoss units, are free.
That argument would be valid if one race did not have an unbeatable deathball on top of having the best static defence, once protoss has one they dont need to remake it. this frees up minerals for cannons. They are also limited by gas constraints so either they need to spend minerals on zealots that they waste on harassment or they can secure their bases with cannons.
itll be fixed in heart of the swarm hopefully.
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On April 14 2011 22:00 Azrael22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 19:24 zeru wrote:
Why do zergs think they have they have the right cry about ZvP anyway, terrans have lower win rate against protoss than zerg in tournaments recently and you don't see them being little cry babies. Is there some side effect that you get by playing zerg which makes you think you should qq about imbalance everywhere? Man up.
The similarities drawn from brood war in this cast were perfect to compare what's going on, with getting urself in unwinnable scenarios, dropping vs zerg, etc. Yes, and the side effect is called Idra. I honestly think his balance qq has been one of the worst things for the mentality of the casual gamers. They hear him qq and think it must be true. I think it is safe to say that all 3 races still need to do a LOT of experimentation before this game is figured out. I play protoss, and while I agree protoss units don't generally do well vs other races in small numbers, warp prism harass has huge potential. Recently we're starting to see more heavy gateway styles against both terran and zerg, when until recently almost every build featured robo units. I feel as though stargate play has a lot of potential. One thing I've been curious about is incorporating carriers. I think a stargate focused play (read VR) while getting pretty early air upgrades could allow for a transition to carriers once you secure a 3rd. I feel like we might have seen a style like this come about, but before it did we saw the colo VR build that spawned all this imba deathball talk. There were several protoss around that time that focused on air and transitioned into colo later, which is why I said we might have seen that style come about.
Yeah that's the biggest problem. Balance only becomes a deciding factor at the HIGHEST level of gaming. However, a gold level player who looks up to the top pros and sees them complain "OP OP" then they all start thinking it themselves in their own games when in reality they are probably losing because of mechanics or poor game decisions since they are not anywhere close to high level.
When top pros complain about balance it causes a chain reaction down the food chain of gamers that even low level gamers think they are losing their games due to balance, but they are not.
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