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On April 14 2011 09:44 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:18 Ribbon wrote:On April 14 2011 07:24 Defacer wrote:
I just got to say, I did the Day 9 Daily yesterday, and beat a Toss. The Toss was pretty bad/predictable and tried to camp on two bases. The only real harass I did was slow down his production with Overseers.
But when you defend with only queens and spine crawlers, holy shit does your economy explode! I had about 3000/2000 banked and not enough larva to spend it fast enough.
I'm really looking forward to giving it another shot tonight against a better player. You end up in a situation similar to Spanishwa's build ... you're not as vulnerable in the early game as you think you are if you have enough queens and base defenses ... although your third, fourth and fifth expansions feel pretty vulnerable until you get real units.
I started triple expanding, and had SC1-style expos with 6-7 drones on minerals, but the gases taken, so I had ludicrous gas income. You can build a RIDICULOUS amount of spines and spores even while doing this and dumping all your 10-geyser gas in infestor/brood lord or infestor/ultra and be perfectly safe. The only problem is that it's so hard to put any pressure on the opponent until hive tech, which is actually a big problem I'm thinking of how I intend to overcome. Mutarisku? I'm fairly sure that they're allowed...
Mutas are a no-go.
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On April 14 2011 08:03 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 00:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 14 2011 00:32 loveeholicce wrote:On April 13 2011 23:59 The KY wrote:On April 13 2011 23:49 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:37 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works. BW is a different game, BW zerg is a different race than SC2 zerg. Does the fact that I played Orcs in WC1 mean I understand Protoss? And yes, I would argue that Day9's understanding of zerg is as superficial as that of the other hosts on last night. They need a zerg player that has actually tried all the crap they they've been theorycrafting about, so they don't have such a dumb one-sided argument again. What podcast did you listen to? I already said, for 40 minutes they weren't theorycrafting about zerg. They were talking about balance, mentality, and the structure of the game itself. Their reasoning for why ZvP was fine was basically "lol 20 infestors" and "lol nydus everywhere", and then a completely retarded comparison to TvZ dropships / scourge. And about how Zerg doesn't play like Terran or Protoss in the respect that you can just mass a ball and roll the other guy's ball of units. I think you missed their points. And how it's all about multi-tasking and multi-pronged attacks, and anyone who's seen Sen rape Naniwa in the GCPL finals game three, or IdrA own Cruncher in the one TSL game he won knows exactly what we're talking about. That's how Zerg is supposed to be played. Same with + Show Spoiler +Sheth vs. Artosis recently. Constant, relentless poking and dropping and nydusing and not allowing your opponent to do anything. They can't use their QQ-imba ball of death/ FFs/ colossi/ thor/ bio/ whatever because you're keeping them on their back foot the whole game. The analogy to TvZ in SC1 was that a great player is able to make all of these aggressive tactics work, regardless of how futile you think it may be (scourge easily cancel out dropship play, unless you have skill and balls). In SC2, nydus worms and drops are fantastic ways to abuse Zergs mobility and win games. And if you're hesitant to do them because they could hypothetically be stopped... tough. Anything could be stopped. Do it anyway, and make it work. Zerg isn't meant to be played the way Protoss or Terran is. That means that if you're playing Zerg with the expectation to win with the same mindset or strategies of a Protoss or Terran player (and vice-versa), then you're going to have a tough time... and probably lose. That doesn't mean that Zerg is underpowered or Protoss is OP or anything like that. Heck, the statistics of the games (both all across the board and also just in the top tier) show that all the match-ups have been relatively close to stable and balanced for quite some time now. It just means that some people are obviously uncertain as to how the underlying mechanics of each race work. Tbh any data taken from the ladder is inconclusive because the mmr system is designed to give everyone a 50/50 w/l ratio.
Blizz releases adjusted statistics to account for this.
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On April 14 2011 07:33 the9thdude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 07:29 AlBundy wrote:
Just passing by to say that, sure it's pretty much confirmed that HoTS and the Protoss expansion will add new units to the game. But it's very possible that Blizzard will also choose to remove some existing units.
So in my opinion discussing the state of balance post-HoTS may be a bit premature.
I see that people are talking about the Nydus network, I'll just say that from my experience, when used defensively it can be very hard to find the right place to put them. I find their positioning extremely difficult to perform in order to maximize their effectiveness, especially on some maps. However I admit that I'm not a master of Hotkeys and I don't have 300 apm.
Also Nydus worms can be very painful to use when you need to transfer a lot of units, I believe someone mentionned zerglings earlier in this thread: in my opinion, if one chooses to use a Nydus network, one has to use it in accordance with an overall gameplan. Having an army composed of slow / low-mobility units could make the nydus really shine. Of course, one has to be aware of the maps' specifics features. But as a spectator I would love to see Nydus being used in order to maneuver units such as Ultralisks, Queens, and especially Hydralisks. I feel that Queens and Hydras are way underused atm but that may pertain to another topic.
On the other hand, I can't really comment about offensive Nydus because it depends on the player's decision making, map awareness, multi-tasking, etc.
All in all I'd say that the potential is here. How many Nydus Networks did you build? Due to the relative slow unload speed of the Worms you should build multiple (2-3, hence why they should be a late game infrastructure investment) to unload multiple units at the same time.
By "relatively slow" you mean pretty damn fast, yeah?
Nydus worms unload roughly twice as fast as medevacs, meaning that three nydus worms can drop your entire army at the same speed that six medevacs could fully unload all their marines. The pinch point isn't how quickly they unload, but how long they survive.. and 200 hp on the ground with one armour but no hope of armour upgrades is hurtful for feelings 
It'd be nice if Nydus Worms benefitted from ground carapace upgrades, so you at least have -some- hope of it getting up without being killed by a single zealot or like 6 workers.
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On April 14 2011 10:08 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 07:33 the9thdude wrote:On April 14 2011 07:29 AlBundy wrote:
Just passing by to say that, sure it's pretty much confirmed that HoTS and the Protoss expansion will add new units to the game. But it's very possible that Blizzard will also choose to remove some existing units.
So in my opinion discussing the state of balance post-HoTS may be a bit premature.
I see that people are talking about the Nydus network, I'll just say that from my experience, when used defensively it can be very hard to find the right place to put them. I find their positioning extremely difficult to perform in order to maximize their effectiveness, especially on some maps. However I admit that I'm not a master of Hotkeys and I don't have 300 apm.
Also Nydus worms can be very painful to use when you need to transfer a lot of units, I believe someone mentionned zerglings earlier in this thread: in my opinion, if one chooses to use a Nydus network, one has to use it in accordance with an overall gameplan. Having an army composed of slow / low-mobility units could make the nydus really shine. Of course, one has to be aware of the maps' specifics features. But as a spectator I would love to see Nydus being used in order to maneuver units such as Ultralisks, Queens, and especially Hydralisks. I feel that Queens and Hydras are way underused atm but that may pertain to another topic.
On the other hand, I can't really comment about offensive Nydus because it depends on the player's decision making, map awareness, multi-tasking, etc.
All in all I'd say that the potential is here. How many Nydus Networks did you build? Due to the relative slow unload speed of the Worms you should build multiple (2-3, hence why they should be a late game infrastructure investment) to unload multiple units at the same time. By "relatively slow" you mean pretty damn fast, yeah? Nydus worms unload roughly twice as fast as medevacs, meaning that three nydus worms can drop your entire army at the same speed that six medevacs could fully unload all their marines. The pinch point isn't how quickly they unload, but how long they survive.. and 200 hp on the ground with one armour but no hope of armour upgrades is hurtful for feelings It'd be nice if Nydus Worms benefitted from ground carapace upgrades, so you at least have -some- hope of it getting up without being killed by a single zealot or like 6 workers.
The difference is that some people are suggesting that you move your army around with them, not just 8 units, which tbh doesn't work out so well unless you have quite a bit of forewarning.
On April 14 2011 10:01 rbx270j wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:44 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 14 2011 09:18 Ribbon wrote:On April 14 2011 07:24 Defacer wrote:
I just got to say, I did the Day 9 Daily yesterday, and beat a Toss. The Toss was pretty bad/predictable and tried to camp on two bases. The only real harass I did was slow down his production with Overseers.
But when you defend with only queens and spine crawlers, holy shit does your economy explode! I had about 3000/2000 banked and not enough larva to spend it fast enough.
I'm really looking forward to giving it another shot tonight against a better player. You end up in a situation similar to Spanishwa's build ... you're not as vulnerable in the early game as you think you are if you have enough queens and base defenses ... although your third, fourth and fifth expansions feel pretty vulnerable until you get real units.
I started triple expanding, and had SC1-style expos with 6-7 drones on minerals, but the gases taken, so I had ludicrous gas income. You can build a RIDICULOUS amount of spines and spores even while doing this and dumping all your 10-geyser gas in infestor/brood lord or infestor/ultra and be perfectly safe. The only problem is that it's so hard to put any pressure on the opponent until hive tech, which is actually a big problem I'm thinking of how I intend to overcome. Mutarisku? I'm fairly sure that they're allowed... Mutas are a no-go.
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On April 14 2011 10:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 10:08 Staboteur wrote:On April 14 2011 07:33 the9thdude wrote:On April 14 2011 07:29 AlBundy wrote:
Just passing by to say that, sure it's pretty much confirmed that HoTS and the Protoss expansion will add new units to the game. But it's very possible that Blizzard will also choose to remove some existing units.
So in my opinion discussing the state of balance post-HoTS may be a bit premature.
I see that people are talking about the Nydus network, I'll just say that from my experience, when used defensively it can be very hard to find the right place to put them. I find their positioning extremely difficult to perform in order to maximize their effectiveness, especially on some maps. However I admit that I'm not a master of Hotkeys and I don't have 300 apm.
Also Nydus worms can be very painful to use when you need to transfer a lot of units, I believe someone mentionned zerglings earlier in this thread: in my opinion, if one chooses to use a Nydus network, one has to use it in accordance with an overall gameplan. Having an army composed of slow / low-mobility units could make the nydus really shine. Of course, one has to be aware of the maps' specifics features. But as a spectator I would love to see Nydus being used in order to maneuver units such as Ultralisks, Queens, and especially Hydralisks. I feel that Queens and Hydras are way underused atm but that may pertain to another topic.
On the other hand, I can't really comment about offensive Nydus because it depends on the player's decision making, map awareness, multi-tasking, etc.
All in all I'd say that the potential is here. How many Nydus Networks did you build? Due to the relative slow unload speed of the Worms you should build multiple (2-3, hence why they should be a late game infrastructure investment) to unload multiple units at the same time. By "relatively slow" you mean pretty damn fast, yeah? Nydus worms unload roughly twice as fast as medevacs, meaning that three nydus worms can drop your entire army at the same speed that six medevacs could fully unload all their marines. The pinch point isn't how quickly they unload, but how long they survive.. and 200 hp on the ground with one armour but no hope of armour upgrades is hurtful for feelings It'd be nice if Nydus Worms benefitted from ground carapace upgrades, so you at least have -some- hope of it getting up without being killed by a single zealot or like 6 workers. The difference is that some people are suggesting that you move your army around with them, not just 8 units, which tbh doesn't work out so well unless you have quite a bit of forewarning.
It can work but it's pretty much all about timing. The reason why I say at least 2-3 Nydus Networks is to allow 2-3 Nydus worms to be created at the same time, which greatly increases the probability of them surviving an offensive push and allows units to unload 2-3 times faster than before!
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On April 14 2011 10:01 rbx270j wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:44 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 14 2011 09:18 Ribbon wrote:On April 14 2011 07:24 Defacer wrote:
I just got to say, I did the Day 9 Daily yesterday, and beat a Toss. The Toss was pretty bad/predictable and tried to camp on two bases. The only real harass I did was slow down his production with Overseers.
But when you defend with only queens and spine crawlers, holy shit does your economy explode! I had about 3000/2000 banked and not enough larva to spend it fast enough.
I'm really looking forward to giving it another shot tonight against a better player. You end up in a situation similar to Spanishwa's build ... you're not as vulnerable in the early game as you think you are if you have enough queens and base defenses ... although your third, fourth and fifth expansions feel pretty vulnerable until you get real units.
I started triple expanding, and had SC1-style expos with 6-7 drones on minerals, but the gases taken, so I had ludicrous gas income. You can build a RIDICULOUS amount of spines and spores even while doing this and dumping all your 10-geyser gas in infestor/brood lord or infestor/ultra and be perfectly safe. The only problem is that it's so hard to put any pressure on the opponent until hive tech, which is actually a big problem I'm thinking of how I intend to overcome. Mutarisku? I'm fairly sure that they're allowed... Mutas are a no-go.
Even if they weren't, they're super gas-heavy.
Since I can't dump my minerals into lings, I literally have more money than I know what to do it. I expand a lot, but maybe I should do something silly like build a hatch + spines at my opponent's third to slow it down while I contaminate. I can't hurt my opponent until after my hive tech, so I can just try to annoy/slow him down.
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On April 14 2011 10:40 the9thdude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 10:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 14 2011 10:08 Staboteur wrote:On April 14 2011 07:33 the9thdude wrote:On April 14 2011 07:29 AlBundy wrote:
Just passing by to say that, sure it's pretty much confirmed that HoTS and the Protoss expansion will add new units to the game. But it's very possible that Blizzard will also choose to remove some existing units.
So in my opinion discussing the state of balance post-HoTS may be a bit premature.
I see that people are talking about the Nydus network, I'll just say that from my experience, when used defensively it can be very hard to find the right place to put them. I find their positioning extremely difficult to perform in order to maximize their effectiveness, especially on some maps. However I admit that I'm not a master of Hotkeys and I don't have 300 apm.
Also Nydus worms can be very painful to use when you need to transfer a lot of units, I believe someone mentionned zerglings earlier in this thread: in my opinion, if one chooses to use a Nydus network, one has to use it in accordance with an overall gameplan. Having an army composed of slow / low-mobility units could make the nydus really shine. Of course, one has to be aware of the maps' specifics features. But as a spectator I would love to see Nydus being used in order to maneuver units such as Ultralisks, Queens, and especially Hydralisks. I feel that Queens and Hydras are way underused atm but that may pertain to another topic.
On the other hand, I can't really comment about offensive Nydus because it depends on the player's decision making, map awareness, multi-tasking, etc.
All in all I'd say that the potential is here. How many Nydus Networks did you build? Due to the relative slow unload speed of the Worms you should build multiple (2-3, hence why they should be a late game infrastructure investment) to unload multiple units at the same time. By "relatively slow" you mean pretty damn fast, yeah? Nydus worms unload roughly twice as fast as medevacs, meaning that three nydus worms can drop your entire army at the same speed that six medevacs could fully unload all their marines. The pinch point isn't how quickly they unload, but how long they survive.. and 200 hp on the ground with one armour but no hope of armour upgrades is hurtful for feelings It'd be nice if Nydus Worms benefitted from ground carapace upgrades, so you at least have -some- hope of it getting up without being killed by a single zealot or like 6 workers. The difference is that some people are suggesting that you move your army around with them, not just 8 units, which tbh doesn't work out so well unless you have quite a bit of forewarning. It can work but it's pretty much all about timing. The reason why I say at least 2-3 Nydus Networks is to allow 2-3 Nydus worms to be created at the same time, which greatly increases the probability of them surviving an offensive push and allows units to unload 2-3 times faster than before!
Yeah, but that's quite a bit of gas when drops work just as well. One idea I've been thinking about, however, is that since units load much quicker into a Nydus than they exit it, is that if you did a doom drop in his main and built a Nydus under your units, you could do the damage and exit almost unscathed (overlords are pretty slow tbh, 1.88 iirc so the nydus is a much safer option when blink stalkers are around) for the mere cost of a 100/100 worm and a 100/200 structure (probably much less than the cost of your army)
On April 14 2011 10:49 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 10:01 rbx270j wrote:On April 14 2011 09:44 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 14 2011 09:18 Ribbon wrote:On April 14 2011 07:24 Defacer wrote:
I just got to say, I did the Day 9 Daily yesterday, and beat a Toss. The Toss was pretty bad/predictable and tried to camp on two bases. The only real harass I did was slow down his production with Overseers.
But when you defend with only queens and spine crawlers, holy shit does your economy explode! I had about 3000/2000 banked and not enough larva to spend it fast enough.
I'm really looking forward to giving it another shot tonight against a better player. You end up in a situation similar to Spanishwa's build ... you're not as vulnerable in the early game as you think you are if you have enough queens and base defenses ... although your third, fourth and fifth expansions feel pretty vulnerable until you get real units.
I started triple expanding, and had SC1-style expos with 6-7 drones on minerals, but the gases taken, so I had ludicrous gas income. You can build a RIDICULOUS amount of spines and spores even while doing this and dumping all your 10-geyser gas in infestor/brood lord or infestor/ultra and be perfectly safe. The only problem is that it's so hard to put any pressure on the opponent until hive tech, which is actually a big problem I'm thinking of how I intend to overcome. Mutarisku? I'm fairly sure that they're allowed... Mutas are a no-go. Even if they weren't, they're super gas-heavy. Since I can't dump my minerals into lings, I literally have more money than I know what to do it. I expand a lot, but maybe I should do something silly like build a hatch + spines at my opponent's third to slow it down while I contaminate. I can't hurt my opponent until after my hive tech, so I can just try to annoy/slow him down.
Do Queen drops haha, my favourite 4v4 strategy :D!
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On April 14 2011 08:23 hugman wrote:
It depends of course, and I don't think you should make changes blindly, and you shouldn't be capricious when balancing a game, you do need to give things some time. However, you shouldn't try to build the berlin wall between yourself and the possibility of balance changes the way some people seem to want to. The people balancing the game need to thoroughly understand what it is that's causing problems. If you analyse the game design then you can make very educated guesses as to what would be beneficial for the balance, and making educated guesses is something that's very common in a lot of fields. You can never know for certain, that doesn't mean you should never do anything.
If you look at the Warp Gate mechanic and the relative time and cost of the other Protoss tech you could probably deduce that PvP would be reduced to WG rushes without playing the game. Because there is no defenders advantage you can (micro being equal) only defend a WG rush with a similar number of WGs. The tech to counter WG units takes too long to reach in relation to WG tech. PvP has been like this in one form or another since early on in the beta, and even people like Tyler seem to be giving up hope that it's going to change.
By analysing the game design you can understand why things are the way they are. In a non-mirror matchup it's of course much more complicated, but you can still make educated guesses about a lot of things. Personally I don't want the Roach to get 2 armor and cost 1 supply because even if Zerg would crush Protosses with that it wouldn't be fun. I don't think that the problems with Z is something you fix just by tweaking numbers, just like you won't fix PvP by tweaking small numbers either. You could make Z win, but you wouldn't make the matchup better.
Coming from a C&C Generals fanbase i completely agree with this. I feel like Brood War was a complete fluke which had very good design to start and with a few major changes was ready for competitive play. Too many pros seem to be thinking that every game will work like that while large design flaws are pointed out by many (like IdrA on more production but less scouting ability compared to Brood War which i still think is a huge problem).
Side Note: RTS fans should all check out Generals, while the ladder isnt the most competitive its one of the most fun out there
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On April 14 2011 09:18 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 07:24 Defacer wrote:
I just got to say, I did the Day 9 Daily yesterday, and beat a Toss. The Toss was pretty bad/predictable and tried to camp on two bases. The only real harass I did was slow down his production with Overseers.
But when you defend with only queens and spine crawlers, holy shit does your economy explode! I had about 3000/2000 banked and not enough larva to spend it fast enough.
I'm really looking forward to giving it another shot tonight against a better player. You end up in a situation similar to Spanishwa's build ... you're not as vulnerable in the early game as you think you are if you have enough queens and base defenses ... although your third, fourth and fifth expansions feel pretty vulnerable until you get real units.
I started triple expanding, and had SC1-style expos with 6-7 drones on minerals, but the gases taken, so I had ludicrous gas income. You can build a RIDICULOUS amount of spines and spores even while doing this and dumping all your 10-geyser gas in infestor/brood lord or infestor/ultra and be perfectly safe. The only problem is that it's so hard to put any pressure on the opponent until hive tech, which is actually a big problem I'm thinking of how I intend to overcome.
Sounds like you managed your economy better than I did, I didn't get nearly enough gases and if my opponent had put on anything other than rudimentary pressure in the mid-game (like drops/blinkstalkers), I would have been screwed.
I was thinking either harassing with burrowed infestors and infested terrans, sacing overlords and dumping creep all over their base, and mass contamination. All that is more annoying than game changing but hopefully it will buy time until hive tech.
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I, along with I assume a ton of other people, have tried indirect ways of beating the unbeatable protoss ball. I agree that nydus can be strong, although I think it's rarely better than simple ov drop, but what both those options have in common is that they are too expensive to get safely at the time you would need to get them to prevent the deathball from rolling.
All the games where protoss seemed to crumble under multi-pronged pressure, like idra vs cruncher game 2, were essentially build order wins. If you invest in fast drop or nydus you will die to a 2 base warpgate timing. If you get the blind burrow upgrades instead, you will not be able to prevent the protoss from securing a timely 3rd. When that goes up you lose the game.
I did not play BW so I don't know exactly what you guys were referring to when talking about coinflips and unwinnable situations, but I feel like the matchup is broken not because I can't find the counter-blob, but because I don't think there's any strategy in it. the point of no return comes too early for decision-making to have any impact.
Compare that to zerg vs a meching terran. It is similar in that if you let the terran get a 3rd base uncontested, you will lose. However you can actually realize ingame what the terran is trying to do and take reactive decisions to try to prevent that. You can plan your multipronged stuff and he can plan his defense and it comes down to who plays better. Zerg still can't beat a 200 mech ball, but I don't think the matchup is imbalanced because of that.
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Did Incontrol spoil his NASL results prior to the broadcast?
In the SotG he said something along the lines of "I'm really looking forward to the broadcast of my match against Ensnare tomorrow". Judging by the White-Ra troubles, games were arlready played at that point...
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On April 14 2011 14:46 Thrombozyt wrote:
Did Incontrol spoil his NASL results prior to the broadcast?
In the SotG he said something along the lines of "I'm really looking forward to the broadcast of my match against Ensnare tomorrow". Judging by the White-Ra troubles, games were arlready played at that point...
+ Show Spoiler +
no this is not a spoiler... he will be excited about and look forward to everyday of the NASL regardless of whether or not he wins/loses/plays/casts... do you really think he would give spoilers about his own tourney to 9000 listeners?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 14 2011 00:15 Inky87 wrote:
I think if Blizzard kept balancing the game around strategies, this game would be boring as shit.
The fact of the matter is that zerg has strengths that the other races don't. You have unlimited freedom with build orders, supreme mobility, among other things. Yeah zergs 200 army doesn't stack up well against protoss and it shouldn't. Have you ever seen a midgame zerg timing attack that worked? Looks about as "OP" as voidray collosus.
I really do believe that zergs aren't being creative enough and scouting enough. (Something that could be remedied if zergs would get their lair earlier)
Do you really not see the various "cute" "surprise" tactics zergs trying out when they fight toss? (albeit with very low success ratio) And actually that's how Fruitdealer plays v. P these days. He gave up on "normal" games against P, and he does all kinds of weird shit. Most of them fail, and people laugh at him, of course.
Now, let's flip the coin - How much "creativity" do you see from the current Protoss play? Honest answer, plz.
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On April 14 2011 15:17 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 00:15 Inky87 wrote:
I think if Blizzard kept balancing the game around strategies, this game would be boring as shit.
The fact of the matter is that zerg has strengths that the other races don't. You have unlimited freedom with build orders, supreme mobility, among other things. Yeah zergs 200 army doesn't stack up well against protoss and it shouldn't. Have you ever seen a midgame zerg timing attack that worked? Looks about as "OP" as voidray collosus.
I really do believe that zergs aren't being creative enough and scouting enough. (Something that could be remedied if zergs would get their lair earlier) Do you really not see the various "cute" "surprise" tactics zergs trying out when they fight toss? (albeit with very low success ratio) And actually that's how Fruitdealer plays v. P these days. He gave up on "normal" games against P, and he does all kinds of weird shit. Most of them fail, and people laugh at him, of course. Now, let's flip the coin - How much "creativity" do you see from the current Protoss play? Honest answer, plz.
I see plenty of creative protoss play coming from one cOL.Cruncher
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On April 14 2011 15:59 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 15:17 usethis2 wrote:On April 14 2011 00:15 Inky87 wrote:
I think if Blizzard kept balancing the game around strategies, this game would be boring as shit.
The fact of the matter is that zerg has strengths that the other races don't. You have unlimited freedom with build orders, supreme mobility, among other things. Yeah zergs 200 army doesn't stack up well against protoss and it shouldn't. Have you ever seen a midgame zerg timing attack that worked? Looks about as "OP" as voidray collosus.
I really do believe that zergs aren't being creative enough and scouting enough. (Something that could be remedied if zergs would get their lair earlier) Do you really not see the various "cute" "surprise" tactics zergs trying out when they fight toss? (albeit with very low success ratio) And actually that's how Fruitdealer plays v. P these days. He gave up on "normal" games against P, and he does all kinds of weird shit. Most of them fail, and people laugh at him, of course. Now, let's flip the coin - How much "creativity" do you see from the current Protoss play? Honest answer, plz. I see plenty of creative protoss play coming from one cOL.Cruncher
apparently voids and colossus is creative now
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@Sando: Couldn't agree more!
@Teivospy: Check your Sarcasm meter!
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On April 14 2011 15:59 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 15:17 usethis2 wrote:On April 14 2011 00:15 Inky87 wrote:
I think if Blizzard kept balancing the game around strategies, this game would be boring as shit.
The fact of the matter is that zerg has strengths that the other races don't. You have unlimited freedom with build orders, supreme mobility, among other things. Yeah zergs 200 army doesn't stack up well against protoss and it shouldn't. Have you ever seen a midgame zerg timing attack that worked? Looks about as "OP" as voidray collosus.
I really do believe that zergs aren't being creative enough and scouting enough. (Something that could be remedied if zergs would get their lair earlier) Do you really not see the various "cute" "surprise" tactics zergs trying out when they fight toss? (albeit with very low success ratio) And actually that's how Fruitdealer plays v. P these days. He gave up on "normal" games against P, and he does all kinds of weird shit. Most of them fail, and people laugh at him, of course. Now, let's flip the coin - How much "creativity" do you see from the current Protoss play? Honest answer, plz. I see plenty of creative protoss play coming from one cOL.Cruncher
You mean turtle and build a few void rays instead of additional stalkers?
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On April 14 2011 14:46 Thrombozyt wrote:
Did Incontrol spoil his NASL results prior to the broadcast?
In the SotG he said something along the lines of "I'm really looking forward to the broadcast of my match against Ensnare tomorrow". Judging by the White-Ra troubles, games were arlready played at that point...
Well, he didn't really say it outright.
But yeah, I was thinking the same thing when I was listening to the cast. (That iNcontroL was going to take his series.) He seemed very happy.
But they might have just been good games against Ensnare.
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On April 14 2011 14:51 ditkaordie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:46 Thrombozyt wrote:
Did Incontrol spoil his NASL results prior to the broadcast?
In the SotG he said something along the lines of "I'm really looking forward to the broadcast of my match against Ensnare tomorrow". Judging by the White-Ra troubles, games were arlready played at that point... + Show Spoiler +no this is not a spoiler... he will be excited about and look forward to everyday of the NASL regardless of whether or not he wins/loses/plays/casts... do you really think he would give spoilers about his own tourney to 9000 listeners?
Well Mr. Fanboi, we will see if Incontrol will a) state something similar every SotG now because he is excited for every day of NASL and if b) he will be especially looking forward to a broadcast where he got absolutely destroyed in the games. If a) and b) are correct, than I will retract my statement and admit that your interpretation was the correct one.
As for your oh so clever spoiler - apparently some people are able to read between the lines and some people haven't reached that point in their development yet...
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On April 14 2011 15:17 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 00:15 Inky87 wrote:
I think if Blizzard kept balancing the game around strategies, this game would be boring as shit.
The fact of the matter is that zerg has strengths that the other races don't. You have unlimited freedom with build orders, supreme mobility, among other things. Yeah zergs 200 army doesn't stack up well against protoss and it shouldn't. Have you ever seen a midgame zerg timing attack that worked? Looks about as "OP" as voidray collosus.
I really do believe that zergs aren't being creative enough and scouting enough. (Something that could be remedied if zergs would get their lair earlier) Do you really not see the various "cute" "surprise" tactics zergs trying out when they fight toss? (albeit with very low success ratio) And actually that's how Fruitdealer plays v. P these days. He gave up on "normal" games against P, and he does all kinds of weird shit. Most of them fail, and people laugh at him, of course. Now, let's flip the coin - How much "creativity" do you see from the current Protoss play? Honest answer, plz.
Uh... quite a lot in PvT and PvP. Also trick openings in PvZ, designed to either fake aggression or fake non-aggression. Also Colossus fakes, designed to bait a disproportionate Corruptor response.
Obviously Protoss has little incentive to experiment with unit composition so long as Zerg are willing to play Roach/Hydra/Corruptor ball vs. ball. The Templar path mainly shines against casters and mutas and ultras, so don't expect to see them unless Zerg produces more of the units they defeat. Carriers appear to be a dud unit on any reasonable base count (maybe a possible followup to air heavy openings, but Corruptors punish them hard), which in turn makes the Mothership unlikely, although we saw Mothership cloaking + Blink Stalker denial of Overseers as recently as Cruncher's series in NASL.
I would like to see more Speed Prism harassment since Zerg tend to avoid Mutalisk play. It seems like Prism + Zealot would be a great mineral sink for Protoss while they build a gas-heavy death ball. (If you're not building a gas-heavy death ball, you probably won't have the Support Bay.)
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EPT
