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On April 07 2011 10:08 Swarmed wrote:
The comparison with BW is simply invalid.
Blizzard made it a point to move away from units and abilites which were too game-changing too fast, and it's obvious from a spectator POV if you're coming from reaver drops, darkswarms/consume and what have you. There's no revolution coming in Sc2, simply because units weren't designed with "OP" abilities or stats in mind, which balanced out in BW because everyone else had some ridiculously powerful stuff.
In BW, the 3 races were, if you will, equally broken.
In Sc2, the way they balance is by making each race equally weak.
Blizzard have stated they want to make every unit in SC2 feel overpowered in it's own way.
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On April 07 2011 10:30 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 10:08 Swarmed wrote:
The comparison with BW is simply invalid.
Blizzard made it a point to move away from units and abilites which were too game-changing too fast, and it's obvious from a spectator POV if you're coming from reaver drops, darkswarms/consume and what have you. There's no revolution coming in Sc2, simply because units weren't designed with "OP" abilities or stats in mind, which balanced out in BW because everyone else had some ridiculously powerful stuff.
In BW, the 3 races were, if you will, equally broken.
In Sc2, the way they balance is by making each race equally weak. Blizzard have stated they want to make every unit in SC2 feel overpowered in it's own way.
And when you look at units for BW, you actually think they've gotten close to that goal at all?
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On April 07 2011 01:55 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:27 Swarmed wrote:
Just a couple things. First off talking balance with Day[9] is like trying to discuss the many possibilities when it comes to the origins of life and the universe with a religious zealot. Day[9] refuses to talk about possible imbalance simply out of principle. Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". And he will keep spouting that line until a balance patch comes and will probably still claim that it wasn't imbalanced and we just didn't give it enough time. When you think about it, it makes sense for his casting career, because he wants to work with Blizzard sanctioned tournaments and being known for balance complaints is a form of controversy that he probably just doesn't want to be a part of.
And all of that would be just fine and dandy, if he could just say he "doesn't want to comment on it" instead of trolling and/or making plain BS statements, as if there was a bajillion options that the pros haven't figured out yet in Zerg's weak early game. Ok Day[9], why don't you show us your revolutionary Zerg openings and midgame transitions that none of the pros have figured out yet and that actually work above silver league?
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me. Maybe I'm missing something but atm Protoss is definitely the race I find the most boring to watch, mirror or not. Why is that? Because it's where the least risk is involved, except maybe when it comes to mirror BO losses. I feel both Zerg and Terran have to work harder for most of their wins atm. Protoss never looks like it's really endangered unless their opponent is outplaying them significantly. And yes Tyler, Zerg players will tend do make more mistakes when there is about a hundred forms of pressure and timing attacks they can insta-lose to and need different responses to. I know it's something that seems very hard to grasp when you play a race that can safely pressure expand and tech at the same time and not really get punished for it, but it's pretty obvious to most everyone else.
The bottom line is, no matter how much sugarcoating Day[9] or Tyler do, I know thanks to my Xray vision that when Day[9] spawns as Zerg, he knows just like any semi-competent player who picks random just for shits and giggles that he's got an uphill battle ahead of him. Unless he's dropped in bronze lately... but if he's in diamond or anywhere above, he knows just as well as Idra the amount of pressure, allins and other fun stuff he has to deal with in order to get into the midgame on equal footing.
When it comes to MLG it's obvious Day[9] and JP don't really want to talk about it because it doesn't really look good to stir up drama for people who are your employers once in a while? As for how to handle it, someone else put it pretty well: if you have to lie / sugarcoat, do it by omission, aka just don't comment too much on it and move on. But going out of your way to say it's not really MLG's fault, that's just overdoing it. Not like they've had major stream issues in the past right? Yeah, ok. How many times are we going to make excuses for them? 2,3,4 more tournaments down the line? When does it stop being ok that a major player like MLG can't get their shit together? I don't know, but not early enough apparently.
In any case, it's definitely refreshing to hear IdrA in the middle of a lot of political correctness, both when it comes to balance discussions and MLG. Too much PC can quickly make a good show rather boring. So thanks IdrA for saving the day. In your second post on these boards, you've managed to claim that Day9 is in bronze league, that you know protoss better than Tyler, that the SotG people are involved in an insidius plot to hide the streaming issues that everyone knows were present, and that Idra should be praised for having the balls to talk about imbalances, because everything else was boring. Really? Are you familiar with the word "humility"?
If the argument makes sense, how is post count relevant? And your counter argument to well thought-out post is "humility" (presumably based on post count)? That's amazing.
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On April 07 2011 09:51 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 08:38 mcc wrote:On April 07 2011 08:18 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 06:30 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:54 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai  Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days  ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers  Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction. I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking. The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop. Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop. More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God. You speak about 2006 as if it was the ancient past but Oov's era of domination had already passed and we were well past the early generation of micro heavy play. I don't understand how having a Broodwar background is at all relevant. They had a Broodwar background while they were playing Broodwar, but they still didn't understand paradigm shifts that were required to turn the matchup around. I disagree with that last paragraph completely. If you're ignorant of a situation, you should either admit your ignorance before giving your thoughts, or not give your thoughts at all. Hell, I think society as a whole would be much better if people followed that principle. 2006 was five years ago. That is a long time. While your right that Broodwar players had an 8 year background in 2006, Starcraft 2 players had a 12 year background in 2010. As to my last paragraph, I'm not suggesting that ignorant people should give their ideas on balance. I'm suggesting that players like Idra should give their opinion on balance. That is, extremely knowledgeable players with extensive backgrounds in Starcraft and Starcraft 2. I maintain this opinion despite the fact that clearly Idra has not figured out Starcraft. Which is precisely what I mean when I say people can speak on complicated subjects without absolute knowledge of them. Of course he can speak, but note this difference. If Idra says roach/hydra is not a good answer to protoss strategy X I will take his word for it unless I have good reasons not to. And there is productive duscussion to be had about that. But if he says Zerg is UP, I dismiss it, not because it cannot be true, maybe it is, but because there is not enough evidence for such a strong statement. And there is no productive public discussion to be had. So he can of course say his opinions and Day9 can say his and there is no way to decide who is right right now, so why waste time blabbering about it. Note that I have nothing against Idra and other Zergs stating their opinions in public. I am against the constant balance discussions that are totally useless. Idra is not only saying that the game is broken, he is always bringing a lot of arguments, but everyone just ignores it while the only argument non-Zergs have is that the Zerg players are not good and/or are doing it wrong. how can someone argue with that? are all PRO zergs really biased whiners? should we expect that a new style will be developed and everything is going to change? what if it never comes? should we just get used to losing? even Blizzard realised the game is imbalanced, see the Situation Report.
No one, not even Day[9], is saying that SC2 is perfectly balanced. But a) calling something completely broken doesn't help, does it? and b) if IdrA is quitting games after seeing hallucinations then his attitude towards the match up is affecting his play.
The thing people are forgetting is that no one wants balance discussion to stop. But 'x is OP, Blizzard nerf it' isn't discussion it's whine. And it is unproductive in every way.
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On April 07 2011 10:26 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 03:13 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 02:59 The KY wrote:
They balance by a number of methods, but whine is not one of them. Acknowledging imbalance actually goes pretty far. Once you acknowledge, even half heartedly, that something may be imbalanced, everyone interested in easy wins on ladder (and there are quite a few) is going to push it as hard as they can. As a result, either the metagame will evolve because some top players under pressure will find a solution to survive, or it will will stagnate because the pros can't figure out a counter and then the "imbalance" will become a little too obvious, calling enough attention to it that it might need to be patched. What does not help at all is denial, or militant censorship of balance discussion on the pretense that "omg you can't possibly have tried everything yet". There's what, 15 units to every race? How many per tier? It's not like there's an infinite amount of viable openings and transitions. Rubbish. Acknowledging* (or more accurately, believing and stating) something to be imbalanced doesn't encourage pros to look for ways around it, how the fuck did you figure that? Pros will look for ways to deal with their own issues, not what the community thinks is OP. The only thing encouraged by saying 'this is too strong, I can't beat this' is hundreds of noobs suddenly feel justified in their whining and continue to whine more, which is not only not productive, it is really fucking annoying. *not that you even can know that. Contrary to your belief there are many, many different ways to play the game, it's doesn't matter how many units there are as unit compositions scratch the surface of the strategy of the game. It was YEARS before BW was figured out.
There's a difference between something kinda/probably being imbalanced like KA and an entire race feeling fundamentally broken. If you're tired of zergs whining HOW DO YOU THINK THE ZERGS FEEL? Do you think we enjoy the way the game is? Did we pick our race because we want to whine and feel terrible all the time? Don't be ridiculous.
And to people saying that Idra isn't giving evidence... he quite calmly explained and spelled out the entire root problem of zerg (See Lalush's macro post). Pretty much Zerg's entire racial strength is based around being able expand rapidly and defend said expansions via mobile units. That sounds nice, but when it doesn't matter because 3 bases = 6 bases and Zerg's gas heavy units are incredibly situational. Sure you can take 6 bases and pump out mutalisks or infestors, but the gaps in that sort of strategy are pretty clear even if infestors do rock (they don't give you great offensive options and they need mineral heavy support). All other zerg units are at a 3:2 min/gas ratio or worse which makes gas past 8 relatively useless because you'll hit a mineral cap making those units. The more I play the more I think every Z related problem stems from this issue.
You may also say, "Well I think zerg has issues before that point in the game!" and that's true, but it's still the same issue. There's a big problem in the fact that your 25 drones/2 bases is the same as a Protoss' 25 drones/1 base which makes 1 base (or 2 base) options a lot more attractive and a lot more powerful.
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On April 07 2011 10:42 Swarmed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 10:30 The KY wrote:On April 07 2011 10:08 Swarmed wrote:
The comparison with BW is simply invalid.
Blizzard made it a point to move away from units and abilites which were too game-changing too fast, and it's obvious from a spectator POV if you're coming from reaver drops, darkswarms/consume and what have you. There's no revolution coming in Sc2, simply because units weren't designed with "OP" abilities or stats in mind, which balanced out in BW because everyone else had some ridiculously powerful stuff.
In BW, the 3 races were, if you will, equally broken.
In Sc2, the way they balance is by making each race equally weak. Blizzard have stated they want to make every unit in SC2 feel overpowered in it's own way. And when you look at units for BW, you actually think they've gotten close to that goal at all?
Blue flame hellions, PDD, cloaked banshees, 12 range tanks with splash, blink stalkers, psy storm, feedback, colossus, warp ins, fully charged void rays, burrowed banelings, super fast mutas, broodlords, nydus, larvae inject, fungal, creep that gives you vision and speed.
Off the top of my head, those are the things I would list as ridiculously powerful in SC2.
Regardless, your point is bizarre. Since release the SC2 meta game has been shifting and there is no reason to believe it will stop. But besides even that, why do you think having more powerful units (even if that is the case) means a game takes longer to figure out.
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I mostly agree with your point but I think Nydus is kinda bad. My experience as P has been that Brood Lords are pretty mediocre but I guess if used very very well they could be super strong rather than just a "I'M 9 BASES AHEAD OF YOU PLEASE, PLEASE JUST DIE" move.
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On April 07 2011 11:03 Turgid wrote:
I mostly agree with your point but I think Nydus is kinda bad. My experience as P has been that Brood Lords are pretty mediocre but I guess if used very very well they could be super strong rather than just a "I'M 9 BASES AHEAD OF YOU PLEASE, PLEASE JUST DIE" move.
Yeah burrowed banelings seemed like an odd inclusion as well given their high failure rate, and mutas are fading from relevancy more and more as the game matures.
Nydus' rock imo, but it's not something that has established itself as super strong or anything.
And larva inject is just saving money by making queens instead of extra hatcheries.
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United States15275 Posts
Wow I thought this was a thread about the podcast, not balance whining. Even if zerg is "broken" (and personally I feel like it was designed around dynamics that don't work as intended in-game) there is only so much that constant repetition of that position will do. It won't fix the issue and Blizzard has shown no indication of doing it themselves. There are more productive things to do...
like getting Tyler a cocktail sponsor.
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On April 07 2011 11:03 Turgid wrote:
I mostly agree with your point but I think Nydus is kinda bad. My experience as P has been that Brood Lords are pretty mediocre but I guess if used very very well they could be super strong rather than just a "I'M 9 BASES AHEAD OF YOU PLEASE, PLEASE JUST DIE" move.
S'alright for Protoss as they have blink stalkers already. But for T broodlords are powerful because a) if you don't see them coming it's gg, period and b) if you do you have to really make a lot of vikings. Hell, Z could probably get a greater spire then do nothing with it to make T shit themselves and produce useless vikings. Anyway, even with vikings you still have to contend with corruptors so you need a fair few, and meanwhile broodlords just rape every ground unit. Broodlings obstruct marine movement which causes splash from tanks, and also they draw fire so anything else on the ground for Z has immunity as infinity broodlings pour out.
It's frustrating, but as it's such an investment for Z I can handle it.
EDIT: High failure rate doesn't make burrowed blings weak because a) most of the failures I've seen were the players own fault, people don't even put them in the right spots yet and b) when they do hit, say, marines, they do ABSURD damage.
As for nydus I put it on there because it's potentially powerful, but I personally just use ovie drops.
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On April 07 2011 10:30 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 10:08 Swarmed wrote:
The comparison with BW is simply invalid.
Blizzard made it a point to move away from units and abilites which were too game-changing too fast, and it's obvious from a spectator POV if you're coming from reaver drops, darkswarms/consume and what have you. There's no revolution coming in Sc2, simply because units weren't designed with "OP" abilities or stats in mind, which balanced out in BW because everyone else had some ridiculously powerful stuff.
In BW, the 3 races were, if you will, equally broken.
In Sc2, the way they balance is by making each race equally weak. Blizzard have stated they want to make every unit in SC2 feel overpowered in it's own way.
Makes you miss the beta doesn't it where Roaches, Siege Tanks, High Templar, Ghosts and Reapers were all imbalanced and the SCV had 60 hp. SC2 in the beta was kickass.
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On April 07 2011 03:20 Swarmed wrote:
@whoever brings up July, he's had a few successes lately that is true, however, IdrA is definitely one of the most CONSISTENT Zerg players in Sc2 so far. Along with Dimaga etc. And they have definitely all brought up balance concerns.
I mean it's like people bringing up Fruitdealer. Any notable performance lately? Not really.
July also has been very vocal about balance and zerg (in Korean). Starting even before he produced great results in GSL 5.
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On April 07 2011 08:38 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 08:18 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 06:30 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:54 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction. I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking. The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop. Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop. More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God. You speak about 2006 as if it was the ancient past but Oov's era of domination had already passed and we were well past the early generation of micro heavy play. I don't understand how having a Broodwar background is at all relevant. They had a Broodwar background while they were playing Broodwar, but they still didn't understand paradigm shifts that were required to turn the matchup around. I disagree with that last paragraph completely. If you're ignorant of a situation, you should either admit your ignorance before giving your thoughts, or not give your thoughts at all. Hell, I think society as a whole would be much better if people followed that principle. 2006 was five years ago. That is a long time. While your right that Broodwar players had an 8 year background in 2006, Starcraft 2 players had a 12 year background in 2010. As to my last paragraph, I'm not suggesting that ignorant people should give their ideas on balance. I'm suggesting that players like Idra should give their opinion on balance. That is, extremely knowledgeable players with extensive backgrounds in Starcraft and Starcraft 2. I maintain this opinion despite the fact that clearly Idra has not figured out Starcraft. Which is precisely what I mean when I say people can speak on complicated subjects without absolute knowledge of them. Of course he can speak, but note this difference. If Idra says roach/hydra is not a good answer to protoss strategy X I will take his word for it unless I have good reasons not to. And there is productive duscussion to be had about that. But if he says Zerg is UP, I dismiss it, not because it cannot be true, maybe it is, but because there is not enough evidence for such a strong statement. And there is no productive public discussion to be had. So he can of course say his opinions and Day9 can say his and there is no way to decide who is right right now, so why waste time blabbering about it. Note that I have nothing against Idra and other Zergs stating their opinions in public. I am against the constant balance discussions that are totally useless.
I completely agree with you on that. Balance discussions which consist of A: "Zerg is UP" B: "Nope" are a waste of time. I think Idra sometimes gets frustrated, and doesn't express himself as well as he could.
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On April 07 2011 11:30 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 03:20 Swarmed wrote:
@whoever brings up July, he's had a few successes lately that is true, however, IdrA is definitely one of the most CONSISTENT Zerg players in Sc2 so far. Along with Dimaga etc. And they have definitely all brought up balance concerns.
I mean it's like people bringing up Fruitdealer. Any notable performance lately? Not really. July also has been very vocal about balance and zerg (in Korean). Starting even before he produced great results in GSL 5.
Problem is, Zergs all whined about Terran being imba despite Terrans not winning GSL and such and then a bunch of Terran nerfs and even uncalled for Protoss nerfs and Zerg buffs and now mysteriously Terran isn't imba anymore but now Zerg's are complaining about Protoss when Protoss hasn't had any buffs since the old Terran imba days. HT nerfs and Void Ray nerfs happened and it wasn't till after that that i started to notice all the Zerg's whine about Protoss.
Maps were even made bigger to suit your Zergy needs and yet still Zerg whine, it's just never good enough.
Why not try this thought process for Zerg. Be like JulyZerg or be like Mondragon's really fun to watch style (don't know if Mondragon vs Zeerax is an completely viable style but it was hella fun to watch).
Maybe the mass expand, get 100 drones and sit on your thumbs style isn't really good. If this game was who can have more workers and max out quicker is the winner then there would be no point in calling it a strategy game.
I still just find it strange that despite no Zerg nerfs or Protoss buffs, Protoss magically became the second imba race. It's like next Toss is gunna be nerfed to hell like Terran and all of a sudden Zerg will start complaining about ZvZ =/
Edit: My point is I don't think there's imbalance and I just find the whole situation weird
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Canada11267 Posts
On April 07 2011 08:18 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:30 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:54 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction. I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking. The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop. Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop. More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God. You speak about 2006 as if it was the ancient past but Oov's era of domination had already passed and we were well past the early generation of micro heavy play. I don't understand how having a Broodwar background is at all relevant. They had a Broodwar background while they were playing Broodwar, but they still didn't understand paradigm shifts that were required to turn the matchup around. I disagree with that last paragraph completely. If you're ignorant of a situation, you should either admit your ignorance before giving your thoughts, or not give your thoughts at all. Hell, I think society as a whole would be much better if people followed that principle. 2006 was five years ago. That is a long time. While your right that Broodwar players had an 8 year background in 2006, Starcraft 2 players had a 12 year background in 2010. As to my last paragraph, I'm not suggesting that ignorant people should give their ideas on balance. I'm suggesting that players like Idra should give their opinion on balance. That is, extremely knowledgeable players with extensive backgrounds in Starcraft and Starcraft 2. I maintain this opinion despite the fact that clearly Idra has not figured out Starcraft. Which is precisely what I mean when I say people can speak on complicated subjects without absolute knowledge of them.
You cannot simply sneak in the BW years to suggest we've had 12 years to figure out SC2. The mechanics are different, the way units interact within the army and against other army compositions are different, the way units handle or mishandle are different. Yes, BW players have a lot of background knowledge, but how SC2 specifically plays out... it's been a year since beta. That's all.
But this sort of discussion was useless for low level players in BW and it's useless now in SC2. There's no way I could've created these sorts of posts in the BW strategy section a couple years ago. I'd be laughed/ mocked out. Yet, even at that time Artosis was complaining about balance, and top level terrans liked to complain about DTs. However, it was absolutely unacceptable for players of our caliber to do so.... because there was so much more to work on. And it absolutely kills your mindset to win. I'm currently getting destroyed by siege contains in BW. They're stupidly hard to deal with, but I'm confident there's a way too beat it. The advantage BW players have is we have seen the shifts in strategies (dare I use the word 'meta-game?') and we're confident it will do so again. With SC2, it seems different because it's a big unknown- but then so was BW at the time. Only now do we have the hindsight.
I suspect that's why SotG is not going entertain many imbalance discussions. Own your own mistakes. You and I have lots of them. Your opponents can be overcome by superior play. If you get owned by cheese... guess what. You're not that good because you haven't figured out how to play a macro game while being safe. So it's back to refinement. You get owned by cheese again. Guess what? It's not that they suck. It's that you're just not that good to stop one of many legitimate attacks. (And no, I am not a cheeser, but a straight shooting macro/ harass player.)
If you lose... you're just not that good. Maybe a patch will come, maybe it won't. But I do think that as soon as you start shifting blame to solely external factors, you're limiting your learning.
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On April 07 2011 11:35 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 08:38 mcc wrote:On April 07 2011 08:18 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 06:30 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:54 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction. I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking. The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop. Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop. More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God. You speak about 2006 as if it was the ancient past but Oov's era of domination had already passed and we were well past the early generation of micro heavy play. I don't understand how having a Broodwar background is at all relevant. They had a Broodwar background while they were playing Broodwar, but they still didn't understand paradigm shifts that were required to turn the matchup around. I disagree with that last paragraph completely. If you're ignorant of a situation, you should either admit your ignorance before giving your thoughts, or not give your thoughts at all. Hell, I think society as a whole would be much better if people followed that principle. 2006 was five years ago. That is a long time. While your right that Broodwar players had an 8 year background in 2006, Starcraft 2 players had a 12 year background in 2010. As to my last paragraph, I'm not suggesting that ignorant people should give their ideas on balance. I'm suggesting that players like Idra should give their opinion on balance. That is, extremely knowledgeable players with extensive backgrounds in Starcraft and Starcraft 2. I maintain this opinion despite the fact that clearly Idra has not figured out Starcraft. Which is precisely what I mean when I say people can speak on complicated subjects without absolute knowledge of them. Of course he can speak, but note this difference. If Idra says roach/hydra is not a good answer to protoss strategy X I will take his word for it unless I have good reasons not to. And there is productive duscussion to be had about that. But if he says Zerg is UP, I dismiss it, not because it cannot be true, maybe it is, but because there is not enough evidence for such a strong statement. And there is no productive public discussion to be had. So he can of course say his opinions and Day9 can say his and there is no way to decide who is right right now, so why waste time blabbering about it. Note that I have nothing against Idra and other Zergs stating their opinions in public. I am against the constant balance discussions that are totally useless. I completely agree with you on that. Balance discussion which consist of A: "Zerg is UP" B: "Nope" are a waste of time. I think Idra sometimes gets frustrated, and doesn't express himself as well as he could.
I really don't get this. People seem to just not listen so they can say this. He mentioned what he thought some of the problems are then pointed towards the Lalush macro post/issue to show why zerg has a very pronounced issue. Sure people vent sometimes, but he clearly has opinions and thought out reasons why Zerg has issues and people just ignore them because they like to go, "Lol IdrA whining about balance."
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^him cursing out people on the internet and dismissing people as retarded probably don't help his case, but yes he does make good points, but then again so does Day9, in between patches some problems that players thought they had were solved through hard work and practice, so his point is legitimate. Can everything be fixed by practice? Probably not, but I think we're at a point where most if not all things can.
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On April 07 2011 11:59 DystopiaX wrote:
^him cursing out people on the internet and dismissing people as retarded probably don't help his case, but yes he does make good points, but then again so does Day9, in between patches some problems that players thought they had were solved through hard work and practice, so his point is legitimate. Can everything be fixed by practice? Probably not, but I think we're at a point where most if not all things can.
Yeah I mean I totally agree you need to practice to try and beat new stuff and I think any pro player does as well, but it just seems like Zerg have a more fundamental disadvantage that continuously carries forward through all the metagame shifts. A lot of what made 5-rax reaper strong also makes stuff like 2-rax strong and even a lot of what makes P so strong in general.
It's unfortunate because if there wasn't the effect described in Lalush's macro post we probably could have kept stuff like the 5-rax reaper as it would have just inherently been weaker (though it obviously broke team games).
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On April 07 2011 07:45 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 07:25 MrCon wrote:On April 07 2011 07:21 Nakas wrote:On April 07 2011 07:07 MrCon wrote:
My only post about balance will be this small example.
2 or 3 months ago, terrans were dominating zerg with the 2 rax build. Very often zergs were dying right here. Idra and Ret commented on teamliquid that it was unbeatable (=imba).
Now, the 2 rax opening is the standard TvZ opening, and no one dies from it anymore. And nothing was patched. (the 2 rax wasn't 2 rax before depot). Do you have a link to this post? I was under the impression that Idra and Ret sat down and figured out the 14-hatch defense to 2-rax (which many people mistakenly considered to be greedy). I do remember Idra saying that it was not possible to reach an even midgame vs. 5-rax reaper, but that subsequently received a nerf that has been more or less universally regarded as justified. The Ret post I remember was in the GSL live report thread of the day he got eliminated. Don't have the link, but it should be easily findable. Sorry, but at this point I gotta say link or it didn't happen. From what I've seen, when Idra calls something out as imba, he has been pretty much right on the money in retrospect every time.
Nestea said in an interview after his RO8 v. TSL_Rain that marine/scv rush on Steppes of war is 100% indefensible. (and I believe he's correct)
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On April 07 2011 12:13 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 07:45 Nakas wrote:On April 07 2011 07:25 MrCon wrote:On April 07 2011 07:21 Nakas wrote:On April 07 2011 07:07 MrCon wrote:
My only post about balance will be this small example.
2 or 3 months ago, terrans were dominating zerg with the 2 rax build. Very often zergs were dying right here. Idra and Ret commented on teamliquid that it was unbeatable (=imba).
Now, the 2 rax opening is the standard TvZ opening, and no one dies from it anymore. And nothing was patched. (the 2 rax wasn't 2 rax before depot). Do you have a link to this post? I was under the impression that Idra and Ret sat down and figured out the 14-hatch defense to 2-rax (which many people mistakenly considered to be greedy). I do remember Idra saying that it was not possible to reach an even midgame vs. 5-rax reaper, but that subsequently received a nerf that has been more or less universally regarded as justified. The Ret post I remember was in the GSL live report thread of the day he got eliminated. Don't have the link, but it should be easily findable. Sorry, but at this point I gotta say link or it didn't happen. From what I've seen, when Idra calls something out as imba, he has been pretty much right on the money in retrospect every time. Nestea said in an interview after his RO8 v. TSL_Rain that marine/scv rush on Steppes of war is 100% indefensible. (and I believe he's correct)
lol, if that's indefensible then I propose the 12 drone rush on that map is as well indefensible.
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EPT
