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On April 07 2011 11:54 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 11:35 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 08:38 mcc wrote:
Of course he can speak, but note this difference. If Idra says roach/hydra is not a good answer to protoss strategy X I will take his word for it unless I have good reasons not to. And there is productive duscussion to be had about that. But if he says Zerg is UP, I dismiss it, not because it cannot be true, maybe it is, but because there is not enough evidence for such a strong statement. And there is no productive public discussion to be had. So he can of course say his opinions and Day9 can say his and there is no way to decide who is right right now, so why waste time blabbering about it.
Note that I have nothing against Idra and other Zergs stating their opinions in public. I am against the constant balance discussions that are totally useless.
I completely agree with you on that. Balance discussion which consist of A: "Zerg is UP" B: "Nope" are a waste of time. I think Idra sometimes gets frustrated, and doesn't express himself as well as he could. I really don't get this. People seem to just not listen so they can say this. He mentioned what he thought some of the problems are then pointed towards the Lalush macro post/issue to show why zerg has a very pronounced issue. Sure people vent sometimes, but he clearly has opinions and thought out reasons why Zerg has issues and people just ignore them because they like to go, "Lol IdrA whining about balance."
Ok again, problem is that Idra uses those otherwise reasonable examples of Zerg problems not to discuss those problems, but to say the game is broken, he actually even used the word "proven". His examples are not enough to make such a statement, that is the reason I think Idra deserved
Day9's mocking/joking. Zerg might really be UP, broken, whatever(I actually think it seems so), but noone on this planet has enough information to claim it with any reasonable certainty and discussions about it do not bring any useful results as the game will be patched anyway based on "we feel it is weak/too strong" not based on "we know it is weak/too strong".
As for SoTG I think they should make Idra somewhat more permanent member and at least from time to time they should have 2 zergs or 2 terrans on the same cast. Because indepth strategic discussions need at least 2 people really playing the race, Day9 might fill that role somewhat, but it would be nice anyway. Those are discussions I am interested in, not pointless balance crap.
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On April 07 2011 14:42 usethis2 wrote:
@syllogism: I agree with you. To be sure, there are merits to believe in unexplored parts/tactics of the game and keep trying. And I believe that's what pros do - constantly brainstorming a counter to whatever strat their opponents are likely to bring up. And this attitude should even more be important for casuals since the tight-rope balance may not likely affect them as much as it does pros.
But at the same time I find it puzzling that some people actually think Blizzard somehow published a perfectly balanced game and everything is there to be "figured out". I mean, if that's the case shouldn't they oppose to patching the game, completely? Do they believe Blizzard is making mistakes and harming the game by the past patches?
None thinks the game is perfectly balanced and few even think it is close to being perfectly balanced. Some people think it is balanced enough. But the main point is that balance discussions are useless.
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@mcc
See that's the thing.
I don't see how having a better understanding of the game is useless, even if it should lead to controversy and/or dispute in the case of balance discussion.
That is why IdrA "whines" (talks, really) so much about balance, because he is trying to advance people's understanding of the game. I'm sure he would be very happy if someone came up with a serious rebuttal/solution to his concerns, other than "LOL JUST MASS INFESTOR" or the classic "USE NYDUS MORE".
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I would love to hear more about what Idra has to say, but the last SotG was like trying to learn math from the cerebral class nerd during a high school study hall while everyone else is shooting spitballs around the room. If Idra wants a serious balance discussion, he'll probably should make some more episodes of Imbalanced with Artosis.
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On April 07 2011 18:07 teamsolid wrote:
How can anyone be sure that Zergs will find a way to fix the ZvP matchup without balance changes from Blizzard anytime soon? No one really knows, which is why I think balance needs to be discussed, since the longer a game stays imbalanced the more harmful it is to the E-Sports scene.
We can't. But remember a couple of months ago when we had a 100+ page thread on how protoss was UP?
Then MC won the GSL, protoss players started to hold stim timing pushes without being too far behind. Stargate builds started popping up (this was before phoenix buildtime decrease was even announced) and suddenly pvz was looking p favored.
Fast forward to today and protoss is generally seen to be the strongest race, zergs are struggling against warpgate rushes and high tech turtling and terrans are trying to figure out ways to stop protoss timings when not long ago it was the other way around. Nobody would have predicted that this would happen so fast, but it did.
I have no idea if those were just isolated cases or if the reverse can happen but I do know that it will never happen if blizzard patches the game every time any race starts getting good results for a month or two.
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IIRC Protoss since release became their asses handed to themselves mainly by Terrans, not by Zergs? (After they found out the timing to beat the "Muta-Ball").
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On April 07 2011 23:22 Velr wrote:
IIRC Protoss since release became their asses handed to themselves mainly by Terrans, not by Zergs? (After they found out the timing to beat the "Muta-Ball").
I think the only time this wasn't the case was right after the roach +1 range buff which took Protoss a little bit to figure out.
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On April 07 2011 10:43 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:55 Treehead wrote:On April 07 2011 01:27 Swarmed wrote:
Just a couple things. First off talking balance with Day[9] is like trying to discuss the many possibilities when it comes to the origins of life and the universe with a religious zealot. Day[9] refuses to talk about possible imbalance simply out of principle. Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". And he will keep spouting that line until a balance patch comes and will probably still claim that it wasn't imbalanced and we just didn't give it enough time. When you think about it, it makes sense for his casting career, because he wants to work with Blizzard sanctioned tournaments and being known for balance complaints is a form of controversy that he probably just doesn't want to be a part of.
And all of that would be just fine and dandy, if he could just say he "doesn't want to comment on it" instead of trolling and/or making plain BS statements, as if there was a bajillion options that the pros haven't figured out yet in Zerg's weak early game. Ok Day[9], why don't you show us your revolutionary Zerg openings and midgame transitions that none of the pros have figured out yet and that actually work above silver league?
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me. Maybe I'm missing something but atm Protoss is definitely the race I find the most boring to watch, mirror or not. Why is that? Because it's where the least risk is involved, except maybe when it comes to mirror BO losses. I feel both Zerg and Terran have to work harder for most of their wins atm. Protoss never looks like it's really endangered unless their opponent is outplaying them significantly. And yes Tyler, Zerg players will tend do make more mistakes when there is about a hundred forms of pressure and timing attacks they can insta-lose to and need different responses to. I know it's something that seems very hard to grasp when you play a race that can safely pressure expand and tech at the same time and not really get punished for it, but it's pretty obvious to most everyone else.
The bottom line is, no matter how much sugarcoating Day[9] or Tyler do, I know thanks to my Xray vision that when Day[9] spawns as Zerg, he knows just like any semi-competent player who picks random just for shits and giggles that he's got an uphill battle ahead of him. Unless he's dropped in bronze lately... but if he's in diamond or anywhere above, he knows just as well as Idra the amount of pressure, allins and other fun stuff he has to deal with in order to get into the midgame on equal footing.
When it comes to MLG it's obvious Day[9] and JP don't really want to talk about it because it doesn't really look good to stir up drama for people who are your employers once in a while? As for how to handle it, someone else put it pretty well: if you have to lie / sugarcoat, do it by omission, aka just don't comment too much on it and move on. But going out of your way to say it's not really MLG's fault, that's just overdoing it. Not like they've had major stream issues in the past right? Yeah, ok. How many times are we going to make excuses for them? 2,3,4 more tournaments down the line? When does it stop being ok that a major player like MLG can't get their shit together? I don't know, but not early enough apparently.
In any case, it's definitely refreshing to hear IdrA in the middle of a lot of political correctness, both when it comes to balance discussions and MLG. Too much PC can quickly make a good show rather boring. So thanks IdrA for saving the day. In your second post on these boards, you've managed to claim that Day9 is in bronze league, that you know protoss better than Tyler, that the SotG people are involved in an insidius plot to hide the streaming issues that everyone knows were present, and that Idra should be praised for having the balls to talk about imbalances, because everything else was boring. Really? Are you familiar with the word "humility"? If the argument makes sense, how is post count relevant? And your counter argument to well thought-out post is "humility" (presumably based on post count)? That's amazing.
His "well thought out post" said that he understood protoss better than Tyler, something he still hasn't denied somehow. That's why I responded the way I did. I typed out a longer response, but then deleted it because I felt humility was the more important lesson here than the actual specifics of why his post was nonsense. Day9, Tyler, and JP are some of the most supported members of the community. They deserve some form of respect. Blizzard, as a designer of some of the best video games ever made, deserves some form of respect (by assuming their game is balanced until we have really, really good reason to assume otherwise - note that the current state of zerg has allowed many to succeed, which to me does not constitute really, really good reason). This was the reason for the tone of that post. The fact that he had almost never posted on the best SC discussion board out there was simply a notable coincidence.
On April 07 2011 07:53 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 07:51 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 07:42 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 07:39 suejak wrote:On April 07 2011 07:36 Swarmed wrote:
@dapierow
Oh but what a coincidence, Artosis who actually played Zerg would also be "whining" about it.
It's like a curse, you play Zerg and them BAM, that race just HAPPENS to make you complain about balance. Even Morrow! Crazy isnt it? You do realize that Morrow, Idra, and especially Artosis complained connnstantly about Terran being underpowered in Brood War? So you either have to say, "Terran is UP in BW," or you have to say, "These players are easily frustrated by poor results, which leads them to blaming the game instead of themselves." Ok, let's add Dimaga, Fruitdealer himself, and just about everyone who's played Zerg at a competitive level. Seriously, show me a good Zerg player with some results that hasn't complained about balance at some point or another. GLHF. What aren't you getting about this? Absolute legends of BW - Nal_ra, Reach, Kingdom - couldn't figure out how to break sAviOr's ZvP. Then it happened. PvZ was unsolvable before March, 2007. After March, it was solved. You don't know the solution until it happens. That's why you give it time before making declarations. Well, it's interesting to think what people actually mean by balance. What if a solution exists but is _never_ found, is the game still balanced? If it is, is that a meaningful declaration?
Yes, the game is still balanced if there's a build that solves all of zerg's problems. No, your perception and experience does not shape whether the game is good or not. If people had quit BW PvZ in 2006, it doesn't mean that PvZ actually was imbalanced and they were right. It just means they weren't resourceful enough to figure out that they were wrong. This isn't even about SC2, it's simple logic. If I stop learning chemistry in high school, it doesn't mean that organic chemistry is actually magic - it just means that I'm too ignorant to understand it.
On April 07 2011 06:08 hugman wrote:
Sitting around waiting for something like the Bisu Build to be figured out in SC2 is giving way too much credit to the game design IMO. The design of Zerg doesn't exactly encourage creative stuff like you can do with the other races.
If you don't want to wait for someone else to figue it out, try figuring it out yourself. If you don't think it's worth it, I guess you can try to switch races and hope that the race you switch to never has any perceived imbalances (remember, up until MC, protoss was considered UP against Terrans).
On April 07 2011 05:58 blade55555 wrote:
seems every top zerg player complains about zvp
I've seen Catz post that he doesn't feel that there's anything truly broken about ZvP currently.
His opinion may have changed since the time of that post, but not all zergs are unified in the opinion that the game needs to be changed for ZvP to be balanced.
I say this as someone who doesn't really read a lot of pro zerg player's opinions, so I'm sure there are other pros who aren't of the opinion that they can't beat protoss without help from blizzard.
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Yeah why listen to IdrA, Dimaga, Fruitdealer, Nestea etc about Zerg when you can talk to the one and only CATZ.
Catz does builds that are by and large regarded as "cute". And while it can certainly be interesting or entertaining to watch, cute doesn't perform well in tournaments.
I mean if you're going to try and give us a player that doesn't think the matchup is broken, try to give us a player who actually has had results playing Zerg.
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Most Zergs other than Idra only occasionally made offhand remarks about balance (which is understandable when you're frustrated), they didn't really go on a quest to promote the idea that the game is imbalanced.
When I've read/heard what Ret says, it was mostly comments like "it's hard for Zerg right now" or similar. Find me one player other than Idra or Artosis who flat out said that the race or game is broken and kept talking about it repetitively.
Mondragon also never complained about imbalance. Maybe the other Zerg players just need to learn how to get lucky at tournaments. =P
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 08 2011 00:14 Talin wrote:
Most Zergs other than Idra only occasionally made offhand remarks about balance (which is understandable when you're frustrated), they didn't really go on a quest to promote the idea that the game is imbalanced.
When I've read/heard what Ret says, it was mostly comments like "it's hard for Zerg right now" or similar. Find me one player other than Idra or Artosis who flat out said that the race or game is broken and kept talking about it repetitively.
Mondragon also never complained about imbalance. Maybe the other Zerg players just need to learn how to get lucky at tournaments. =P
Can people like these stfu !
Please go watch kellymilkies Foreigner interview of GSL championship foriegner house where SEn, dimaga, Morrow complain how broken ZvP is, and hell even white-ra saying something has to change with forcefields !!!
Lalush and darkforce talking about it on their streams and on tl.net
Ret mentioning it in interviews/mr.btter shows/ tl.net
Artosis and Idra complaining on their show
July complaining about it in the ST house tour.
Or for the example prime / st players and coach comments on how they think zerg is indeed weaker.
So again stfu !
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 08 2011 00:04 Swarmed wrote:
Yeah why listen to IdrA, Dimaga, Fruitdealer, Nestea etc about Zerg when you can talk to the one and only CATZ.
Catz does builds that are by and large regarded as "cute". And while it can certainly be interesting or entertaining to watch, cute doesn't perform well in tournaments.
I mean if you're going to try and give us a player that doesn't think the matchup is broken, try to give us a player who actually has had results playing Zerg.
That's a nice strawman you've got there, but I think most people won't read my post as "ignore everyone but Catz". I personally admire Catz's ability to innovate and get results with it. You clearly don't - I guess the number of pro gamers whose race you understand better than them has grown to 2: Catz and Tyler.
Talin also claims Mondragon is another such person. I've never seen many posts by him, so I can't corroborate that, but my point was that just because Idra has thrown in the towel on ZvP doesn't mean that the community as a whole believes Z won't be able to beat P without help from Blizzard. It just means that's what he believes.
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A lot of perceived imbalance has to do with not applying pressure at certain points. If you let your opponent do whatever he wants, you should expect to lose -_- The game is fine. Not like zerg is losing 100% of the time.
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On April 08 2011 00:39 Inky87 wrote:
A lot of perceived imbalance has to do with not applying pressure at certain points. If you let your opponent do whatever he wants, you should expect to lose -_- The game is fine. Not like zerg is losing 100% of the time.
It's not that simple, at all.
Its harder for zerg to apply pressure than it is for protoss/terran to defend it without any damage. As protoss get better and better with force fields it will become more apparent.
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On April 08 2011 00:39 Treehead wrote:
I personally admire Catz's ability to innovate and get results with it.
What results?
And same about Tyler really, he's been hyped quite a bit here on TL, but when's the last time he placed somewhere impressive?
The other players I'm talking about have already proven they can hang in GSL code S, except for Dimaga if you disregard the showmatch KRvWorld but his list of results is actually long enough to take him seriously.
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On April 08 2011 00:45 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 00:39 Inky87 wrote:
A lot of perceived imbalance has to do with not applying pressure at certain points. If you let your opponent do whatever he wants, you should expect to lose -_- The game is fine. Not like zerg is losing 100% of the time. It's not that simple, at all. Its harder for zerg to apply pressure than it is for protoss/terran to defend it without any damage. As protoss get better and better with force fields it will become more apparent.
Not even. The spawn larvae mechanic allows zergs to heavy drone or build a bunch of attacking units. Being a good zerg is knowing when to do either. Trust me. Every build has weak points.
It is true that a max protoss army doesn't come close to a max zerg army, but the rate at which zergs can make units is a huge boon that protoss doesn't really have unless the protoss is allowed to get maxed. Sentry heavy builds are especially risky because if they are lost, the protoss has no way to deal with zerg aggression anymore.
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On April 08 2011 00:48 Swarmed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 00:39 Treehead wrote:
I personally admire Catz's ability to innovate and get results with it. What results? And same about Tyler really, he's been hyped quite a bit here on TL, but when's the last time he placed somewhere impressive? He places well consistently, which says a lot more than getting a single tournament win then never making top 8 again. Besides that, Tyler has won bo7 showmatches convincingly against both Jinro and Idra.
I also think your statement that Tyler has been "hyped up" on TL is wrong. Many people think his skill potential is extremely high, as he shows on his stream regularly, showed in SC:BW via TSL2 and in multiple other instances, like those showmatches I referred to above. That does not mean that people are being uncritical with their thoughts regarding his playing.
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To go in a bit of a different direction than the last several pages, I'd like to thank the SotG cast for so readily throwing their opinions out there (even when they disagree with each other) because the discussion that it generates can be the vehicle for evolution of the game as a whole and the 'next gen' strats for each matchup.
It may be an odd point of view, but I feel that the so-called 'abusive' builds are those that will advance the overall progress of the game. So many of the current standards are based on the 'abuses' of a few months ago. That doesn't have any particular indication on balance one way or the other, but then I'm not at the skill point that any balances which may exist truly affect me.
I appreciate the players that continue to push forward even when it becomes frustrating, or appears overly difficult, as the insights they gain will only advance the understanding of the game as a whole. I'd encourage all the fans to keep the faith that the game is still in its infancy, relatively speaking, and these frustrations are more likely to bring about evolution than any official patching that will eventually be done.
Thanks again, SotG crew. Your thoughts and input continue to spur more discussion on the topic which, occasionally, spur the next generations' innovators into experimentation.
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On April 08 2011 01:15 Everhate wrote:
....
Thanks again, SotG crew. Your thoughts and input continue to spur more discussion on the topic which, occasionally, spur the next generations' innovators into experimentation.
This. I sometimes wonder if BW had a state of the game.
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On April 08 2011 00:48 Swarmed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 00:39 Treehead wrote:
I personally admire Catz's ability to innovate and get results with it. What results? And same about Tyler really, he's been hyped quite a bit here on TL, but when's the last time he placed somewhere impressive? The other players I'm talking about have already proven they can hang in GSL code S, except for Dimaga if you disregard the showmatch KRvWorld but his list of results is actually long enough to take him seriously.
Do you really believe that GSL code S and the people who "have shown that they can compete there at some point in time" comprises the only people who have informed opinions about this game?
Admittedly, I don't know much about Catz, but I know he's in the NASL, and I know he's with Root Gaming. Those seem impressive to me for someone who apparently only does "cute" builds (and beats amazing players with them).
Again, other than someone who has almost no humility whatsoever, why do you continue to post to the effect that you know the game better than Catz and Tyler? Fine, you have an opinion which is different than they do - that's one thing. To claim they aren't good enough to have an informed opinion, though, just because they don't agree with you is ridiculous.
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EPT
