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Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 713

Forum Index > SC2 General
54608 CommentsPost a Reply
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Domination
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1177 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 18:49:34
April 07 2011 18:48 GMT
#14241
You were only going to listen to Idra anyways because I'll bet that's all you do.

I'm slowly becoming convinced that regular patching is the worst thing to ever happen to this community.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 18:52:47
April 07 2011 18:51 GMT
#14242
On April 08 2011 03:48 Domination wrote:
You were only going to listen to Idra anyways because I'll bet that's all you do.

I'm slowly becoming convinced that regular patching is the worst thing to ever happen to this community.

I think it is more that the developers thinking they need to explain themselves after every balance patch.

@ your first statement, the guy has posts in IdrA's fan club dating back from now to August, I think I have a feeling your right on that
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
April 07 2011 18:51 GMT
#14243
I think that dimaga pic is old
He's much more ripped now
Tabbris
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Bangladesh2839 Posts
April 07 2011 18:53 GMT
#14244
On April 08 2011 03:46 Essentia wrote:
Idra has outperformed Tyler in SC2 with results and obv is a better player than Day9 and yet people are taking Tyler/Day9's side? Sorry, but I am going to listen to Idra on this one since he is clearly the best player in the discussion.

Where you even there to hear Artosis and Idra in BW?! Crying about the race they play is nothing new. They both said a lot of retarded shit sometimes. In SC2 its no different. Idra and artosis will always be Idra and artosis.

Btw I love artosis and idra. Idra was my second favorite player in BW and artosis is all around awsome so i dont mean disrespect from what i say
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8751 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 18:55:35
April 07 2011 18:54 GMT
#14245
On April 08 2011 03:40 Lomak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 03:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Does Dimaga have a sexier body than NaDa? He looks pretty fit. Let's see some shirtless pics


[image loading]

Anyways back on topic, I shouldn't really comment on balance as I'm only a diamond level player (zerg). With that being said , to me from a player / spectator standpoint it just FEELS like zerg units are lacking.....my 2 cents.

he could diet for a month and look sexy as fuck. i bet that's his off season :D

On April 08 2011 03:51 hugman wrote:
I think that dimaga pic is old
He's much more ripped now

yeah i think so
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Lomak
Profile Joined June 2010
United States311 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 18:56:49
April 07 2011 18:55 GMT
#14246
I don't think patching is bad for the game or community, look at the roach range increase by +1. At the time so many people thought it was going too far with how protoss like to Forge first, fast expand and use the range advantage to secure that expansion. You saw those builds die off but then they sort of came back in the form of 3 gate sentry expand , or other variances on the forge fast expand.

In fact i think patching is great for the game as it forces the community to adapt to the new rule sets. I was hoping (and am still hoping) to see some new amazing infestor play come out from the recent changes, although its been pretty lacking thus far =/.

And yea, back to dimaga. If he got in a routine crunch / sit up mode he would be such a beast with some abs on that body. /bromance
Some see the glass half full, others half empty. I think the glass is just too big.
Swarmed
Profile Joined April 2011
59 Posts
April 07 2011 18:55 GMT
#14247
Yeah I was kinda sold for a minute on Tyler's point with the opening doors and all until I remembered Infestors had just been buffed and the newfound creativity with them was very uhm.. artificial to say the least.

I mean let's say Infestors didn't get the buff just to entertain the discussion, what the hell would Day[9] have suggested? Yeah, exactly, he woulda been SOL to think of anything. So because Infestors have gotten a buff, let's say use Infestors because we can cover our asses saying it really hasn't been tested enough yet and spend another 6 months figuring out they still cost the same and they are not the problem but getting to them while on equal footing with your opponent is and has been the problem.

/snore
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
April 07 2011 18:56 GMT
#14248
On April 08 2011 03:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Does Dimaga have a sexier body than NaDa? He looks pretty fit. Let's see some shirtless pics

Of course.
Anyway great analogy with doors, I hoped someone more eloquent than me will phrase the whole point better.
jimmyjingle
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States472 Posts
April 07 2011 19:00 GMT
#14249
I'm just sad that Tyler and friends can put so much reason and thought into this thread and it's still a cesspool.
I get brain like a skull
Slakter
Profile Joined January 2010
Sweden1947 Posts
April 07 2011 19:00 GMT
#14250
On April 08 2011 03:46 Essentia wrote:
Idra has outperformed Tyler in SC2 with results and obv is a better player than Day9 and yet people are taking Tyler/Day9's side? Sorry, but I am going to listen to Idra on this one since he is clearly the best player in the discussion.

Lol, comments like this makes me want to kill small animals. (INNOCENT CUDDLY SMALL ANIMALS.)
Protoss, can't live with em', can't kill em'.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
April 07 2011 19:02 GMT
#14251
On April 08 2011 03:46 Essentia wrote:
Idra has outperformed Tyler in SC2 with results and obv is a better player than Day9 and yet people are taking Tyler/Day9's side? Sorry, but I am going to listen to Idra on this one since he is clearly the best player in the discussion.

Because the discussion is not about specific Zerg strategy (on that it would be reasonable to take Idra's word with more weight in most cases), but about whether there is enough information to make balance conclusions.
Swarmed
Profile Joined April 2011
59 Posts
April 07 2011 19:07 GMT
#14252
Tyler beat IdrA in showmatches and is clearly a great player whom I really like listening to when he talks about Protoss. I just wonder how much he actually understands about playing Zerg and I have my doubts there. There may or may not be a reason why most Zerg pros feel something is lacking. Maybe they're just all whiny by nature. Maybe Tyler understands the metagame better than all of them combined. Or maybe not. IT'S A MYSTERY.
Lomak
Profile Joined June 2010
United States311 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 19:13:44
April 07 2011 19:08 GMT
#14253
I'd like to think the majority of the community can discuss these sorts of things without degrading into some adolescent bickering. For instance the corrupter.

In ZvP it just FEELS like the corrupter is lackluster at its job. They have a short range, cost quite a bit of resources, and do less damage (even with corruption) than their terran counterparts (the viking). I'm not saying it should be turned into a viking or vice versa , I'm just confused as to why there is such a large disparity between 2 units that vs. Protoss fulfill pretty much the same part.

Just one of the little things that FEELS off. I say "FEELS" because I'm NOT an amazing player, and there is still a lot of things I can improve on, but I can still say genuinely that some zerg units just FEEL a bit too inefficient.

Also I would just like to say that Idra, Tyler , and Day9 are amazing starcraft minds, and I'm always glad to hear what they have to say. The people who are trying to belittle one of them simply because they are a fan of the other just need to fucking grow up , to be quite honest. They have more to offer us in 10 minutes than any of you could give us in your lifetime.
Some see the glass half full, others half empty. I think the glass is just too big.
Fadetowhite
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)302 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 19:12:08
April 07 2011 19:11 GMT
#14254
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 08 2011 02:39 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 01:51 Swarmed wrote:
On April 08 2011 01:43 Barrin wrote:
Well, if you ask me (and apparently Day[9]), hell the fuck NO. But I do understand the factors that could lead a reasonable person to believe that most of them have been tested thoroughly. It only seems that way. You are normal for believing that if you do. But you are wrong. I do not need to support this claim with evidence, because time will do it for me (which is how I'm sure Day[9] feels which is why he is happy to just laugh it off).


Which is precisely why Day[9] is so obnoxious on the subject and should just refrain from participating if he is against balance discussion in itself.

You "don't need evidence" because "it happened in BW" (and so it will again evidently), so we have to believe.
Hence my first post on this thread comparing him to a religious zealot. For Day[9] and others on the same position, it's a matter of dogma and faith. Which doesn't sit well with the idea of just having an open discussion about the "state of the game".

Here's an analogy:
You are regularly presented with a set of 5 doors. The only way you ever get food is by opening the doors. Every time that you opened 5 doors, you got food from at least one of them. You've currently opened 2 doors, but can't figure out how to open any more. Are you going to spend your time trying to open a 3rd door, or are you gonna ponder whether opening all 5 doors guarantees food? How much time will you spend trying to open the 3rd door, and how much time will you spend checking the two opened doors again and again?

Day[9] thinks StarCraft players' only job is to open doors. There is nothing else. Perhaps on your lunch break you can engage in some idle conversation about the metaphysics of the doors and the morality of opening them. But it's just idle conversation. 99% of the time it's just this: open doors, open doors, open doors.

The real argument that would happen between Day[9] and IdrA is about whether or not all 5 doors have been opened. Day[9] thinks they're not all opened. He can see them. Maybe one is cracked, and no one is sure whether food can be smelt on the other side, but it's certainly not open and clear to everyone. This isn't faith or belief or any kind of "balance zealotry." Perhaps people have interacted with the closed doors, but they haven't picked the lock and turned the handle and swung it wide open. Faith comes in if he says "I know you guys worked your asses off to open 4 doors only to be disappointed. And you've spent months trying to open the 5th door. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT rebel against your circumstances!!! TRUST me. Keep working on opening the last door. When you do, you will get food." Such opinions would certainly constitute faith of a sort. But like we've said at the start, every time that all the doors have been opened, food was in at least one. There's just never been a way to prove that food is guaranteed. Faith would also come in when Day[9] says "Hey, there's definitely a 6th door out there somewhere. It's nowhere in sight, but let's try all sorts of crazy things and see if we come upon it."

IdrA would say he's opened all the doors, or at least inspected the unopen ones well enough to know there's no food behind them. Or he's gonna say how it's easier for his Protoss friend to open his doors.

That's the gist of things. And we can't very well be experts on things that aren't in the open and clear. So that's all Day[9] can say is "hey try getting a ton of infestors in this specific way and see how that works" and I can say "hey, balance your resources toward gas as heavily as possible without dying and see how that works" because those kinds of things are unopened doors to us. And IdrA would have to spend many hours of practice to open them and perhaps find no food behind them, which would be doubly frustrating when that was his suspicion the whole time. But damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!


sorry for posting a meme but i could not resist the urge to make one after reading this post cause its so awesome!

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

메신저
SMD
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada627 Posts
April 07 2011 19:18 GMT
#14255
On April 08 2011 04:08 Lomak wrote:
I'd like to think the majority of the community can discuss these sorts of things without degrading into some adolescent bickering. For instance the corrupter.

In ZvP it just FEELS like the corrupter is lackluster at its job. They have a short range, cost quite a bit of resources, and do less damage (even with corruption) than their terran counterparts (the viking). I'm not saying it should be turned into a viking or vice versa , I'm just confused as to why there is such a large disparity between 2 units that vs. Protoss fulfill pretty much the same part.

Just one of the little things that FEELS off. I say "FEELS" because I'm NOT an amazing player, and there is still a lot of things I can improve on, but I can still say genuinely that some zerg units just FEEL a bit too inefficient.

Also I would just like to say that Idra, Tyler , and Day9 are amazing starcraft minds, and I'm always glad to hear what they have to say. The people who are trying to belittle one of them simply because they are a fan of the other just need to fucking grow up , to be quite honest. They have more to offer us in 10 minutes than any of you could give us in your lifetime.


They may want to buff damage, Im not sure.
range may be another way, or even movement speed, though you don't want them to be like muta's i guess.

But Im not sure what else you could do to corruptors. Lowering cost would just make broodlords easier to get, and broodlords are so awesome. lol.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
April 07 2011 19:18 GMT
#14256
On April 08 2011 03:55 Swarmed wrote:
Yeah I was kinda sold for a minute on Tyler's point with the opening doors and all until I remembered Infestors had just been buffed and the newfound creativity with them was very uhm.. artificial to say the least.

I mean let's say Infestors didn't get the buff just to entertain the discussion, what the hell would Day[9] have suggested? Yeah, exactly, he woulda been SOL to think of anything. So because Infestors have gotten a buff, let's say use Infestors because we can cover our asses saying it really hasn't been tested enough yet and spend another 6 months figuring out they still cost the same and they are not the problem but getting to them while on equal footing with your opponent is and has been the problem.

/snore

Frankly if what you are implying, that all has been tried, than SC2 is very empty and doomed game no matter if zerg is balanced. Also Tyler's point was not about infestors, but much more general, so you pointing out the patch makes no sense.

Basically your arguments make sense only if you really think that all possibilities of Zerg play were reasonably explored. If that is the case, either you are right and then SC2 is extremely shallow game to be explored in not even a year, or you are wrong.
Swarmed
Profile Joined April 2011
59 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 19:20:47
April 07 2011 19:18 GMT
#14257
On April 08 2011 04:08 Lomak wrote:
In ZvP it just FEELS like the corrupter is lackluster at its job. They have a short range, cost quite a bit of resources, and do less damage (even with corruption) than their terran counterparts (the viking). I'm not saying it should be turned into a viking or vice versa , I'm just confused as to why there is such a large disparity between 2 units that vs. Protoss fulfill pretty much the same part.


Have you ever entertained the thought that once you are successful in killing all or most of the colossi, whatever corruptors you have left become by and large useless in ground battles and that might be why they feel like a bad solution to colossi? Vikings can actually go harass worker lines or take part in ground battles if that's all there is left.

It's kind of counterintuitive. But it's a unit that IF it does its job, becomes bad.
You're really supposed to time your Hive / Gspire so that they can turn into Broodlords shortly after, but usually when you're worried about stopping that giant deathball and a large number of colossi are still present, you don't have resources or time to throw around Hive + Gspire.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11387 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-07 19:25:37
April 07 2011 19:23 GMT
#14258
On April 08 2011 04:07 Swarmed wrote:
Tyler beat IdrA in showmatches and is clearly a great player whom I really like listening to when he talks about Protoss. I just wonder how much he actually understands about playing Zerg and I have my doubts there. There may or may not be a reason why most Zerg pros feel something is lacking. Maybe they're just all whiny by nature. Maybe Tyler understands the metagame better than all of them combined. Or maybe not. IT'S A MYSTERY.


I think this is more the case that 2 of the most whiny prominent foreign BW players chose Zerg. I love those 2, but Idra-Artosis complained in BW and they complained in SC2. They set the tone for low-level Zerg players and as a consequence, the forums have been over-run by complaining fans. It may be harder for Zerg, but the tone was set.

After the Bisu revolution, the 6 dragons, eventually all slumped. But Bisu's interviews were never complaining about imba (perhaps he mentioned maps), but most of the interviews I remember he simply apologized for his lack of his performance, asked his fans to hang in there because he was working harder. Maybe Bisu and Stork complain on Korean forums, but I don't recall complaining in interviews. And their lack of whining also sets the tone for low level players... and recently Bisu seems to have found some new timing attacks against Zerg. (Just needs to figure out Terran.)

I think your missing Tyler's point if you think he's saying he understands the metagame better than Idra. That was never the point. The point is to leave imba complaints behind- it hinders creative thought. Try new methods of thinking because that's what gamers do.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Torumfroll
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
290 Posts
April 07 2011 19:23 GMT
#14259
On April 08 2011 03:46 Essentia wrote:
Idra has outperformed Tyler in SC2 with results and obv is a better player than Day9 and yet people are taking Tyler/Day9's side? Sorry, but I am going to listen to Idra on this one since he is clearly the best player in the discussion.

Clearly the legitimacy of ones opinion is based on who is the better player. I guess all those coaches in the korean teams can find new jobs because the players clearly dont need them since they are better players.
Idra is no doubt more successful in Starcraft 2 as a player than Day9 and Tyler. However, to completely disregard their point of view simply because they havent played in as many tournaments and placed well is just stupid. You dont have to be a superior player to give another player advice on how he can evolve.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
April 07 2011 19:25 GMT
#14260
On April 08 2011 03:55 Swarmed wrote:
Yeah I was kinda sold for a minute on Tyler's point with the opening doors and all until I remembered Infestors had just been buffed and the newfound creativity with them was very uhm.. artificial to say the least.

I mean let's say Infestors didn't get the buff just to entertain the discussion, what the hell would Day[9] have suggested? Yeah, exactly, he woulda been SOL to think of anything. So because Infestors have gotten a buff, let's say use Infestors because we can cover our asses saying it really hasn't been tested enough yet and spend another 6 months figuring out they still cost the same and they are not the problem but getting to them while on equal footing with your opponent is and has been the problem.

/snore


You're assuming that since infestors are newly buffed, they are the only unopened door. You are wrong.
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