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+ Show Spoiler +On April 07 2011 08:07 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 08:04 dapierow wrote:On April 07 2011 07:59 zeru wrote:On April 07 2011 07:51 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 07:42 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 07:39 suejak wrote:On April 07 2011 07:36 Swarmed wrote:
@dapierow
Oh but what a coincidence, Artosis who actually played Zerg would also be "whining" about it.
It's like a curse, you play Zerg and them BAM, that race just HAPPENS to make you complain about balance. Even Morrow! Crazy isnt it? You do realize that Morrow, Idra, and especially Artosis complained connnstantly about Terran being underpowered in Brood War? So you either have to say, "Terran is UP in BW," or you have to say, "These players are easily frustrated by poor results, which leads them to blaming the game instead of themselves." Ok, let's add Dimaga, Fruitdealer himself, and just about everyone who's played Zerg at a competitive level. Seriously, show me a good Zerg player with some results that hasn't complained about balance at some point or another. GLHF. What aren't you getting about this? Absolute legends of BW - Nal_ra, Reach, Kingdom - couldn't figure out how to break sAviOr's ZvP. Then it happened. PvZ was unsolvable before March, 2007. After March, it was solved. You don't know the solution until it happens. That's why you give it time before making declarations. Pretty much this. The games are way too complex and you can't just shout op/up when things go bad for a race for some months, especially not right after patches. The game is fine, let it stay the way it is and work with what you have. Complaining and crying about imbalance will never make you a better player, however trying to find a solution to how to improve against some race and player will. Also the ZvP matchup isn't as hard as people make it seem to be right now. You have to remember the fact that there are less amazing players that play zerg compared to the other races. really? you say ZvP isnt as hard as people make it then right after claim that there are less amazing players that play zerg compared to other races lol... Are you trying to say that there are just as many amazing zerg as there are t/p
yes In Korea most Definitely
if i may ask how did u come to the conclusion that zvp isnt as hard as people make it seem to be?
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On April 07 2011 07:58 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 07:54 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 07:51 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 07:42 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 07:39 suejak wrote:On April 07 2011 07:36 Swarmed wrote:
@dapierow
Oh but what a coincidence, Artosis who actually played Zerg would also be "whining" about it.
It's like a curse, you play Zerg and them BAM, that race just HAPPENS to make you complain about balance. Even Morrow! Crazy isnt it? You do realize that Morrow, Idra, and especially Artosis complained connnstantly about Terran being underpowered in Brood War? So you either have to say, "Terran is UP in BW," or you have to say, "These players are easily frustrated by poor results, which leads them to blaming the game instead of themselves." Ok, let's add Dimaga, Fruitdealer himself, and just about everyone who's played Zerg at a competitive level. Seriously, show me a good Zerg player with some results that hasn't complained about balance at some point or another. GLHF. What aren't you getting about this? Absolute legends of BW - Nal_ra, Reach, Kingdom - couldn't figure out how to break sAviOr's ZvP. Then it happened. PvZ was unsolvable before March, 2007. After March, it was solved. You don't know the solution until it happens. That's why you give it time before making declarations. You treat the Zerg issue as if it had been a strictly ZvP problem, when there already have been many changes made to help with the ZvT matchup. Z is just shittier, everyone knows it, you're supposed to have more APM and/or game sense than P/T to play at the same level as them. I'm not sure why it's so hard to come to terms with it. But you're basically suggesting nobody has thought of this mystery unit (corsair) that Zerg will suddenly find out is awesome. I guess you don't play Zerg much. I spent more time with Zerg than Artosis did. Just because playing and learning one race is harder doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Back to Broodwar we go, where Protoss was by far the easiest race to play decently and Terran was by far the hardest. Your point of comparisons are off. And the corsair was widely used before Bisu won his MSL.
I'm not sure that the guy ever really watched BW because he doesn't seem to get your examples...
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Indeed, zergs have always had impressive tourney runs in GSL tournaments. July and Losira are but two recent examples of strong zergs.
I've always been a little confused by the distant imba cries. Zerg is (imo) much harder to play in sc2 than terran or protoss, but that in itself doesn't seem to be a giant problem in terms of results.
(Moon got 2nd at IEM... Zenio got 2nd at FXOpen or whatever... etc)
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On April 07 2011 08:13 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 08:09 dapierow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 07 2011 08:07 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 08:04 dapierow wrote:On April 07 2011 07:59 zeru wrote:On April 07 2011 07:51 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 07:42 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 07:39 suejak wrote:On April 07 2011 07:36 Swarmed wrote:
@dapierow
Oh but what a coincidence, Artosis who actually played Zerg would also be "whining" about it.
It's like a curse, you play Zerg and them BAM, that race just HAPPENS to make you complain about balance. Even Morrow! Crazy isnt it? You do realize that Morrow, Idra, and especially Artosis complained connnstantly about Terran being underpowered in Brood War? So you either have to say, "Terran is UP in BW," or you have to say, "These players are easily frustrated by poor results, which leads them to blaming the game instead of themselves." Ok, let's add Dimaga, Fruitdealer himself, and just about everyone who's played Zerg at a competitive level. Seriously, show me a good Zerg player with some results that hasn't complained about balance at some point or another. GLHF. What aren't you getting about this? Absolute legends of BW - Nal_ra, Reach, Kingdom - couldn't figure out how to break sAviOr's ZvP. Then it happened. PvZ was unsolvable before March, 2007. After March, it was solved. You don't know the solution until it happens. That's why you give it time before making declarations. Pretty much this. The games are way too complex and you can't just shout op/up when things go bad for a race for some months, especially not right after patches. The game is fine, let it stay the way it is and work with what you have. Complaining and crying about imbalance will never make you a better player, however trying to find a solution to how to improve against some race and player will. Also the ZvP matchup isn't as hard as people make it seem to be right now. You have to remember the fact that there are less amazing players that play zerg compared to the other races. really? you say ZvP isnt as hard as people make it then right after claim that there are less amazing players that play zerg compared to other races lol... Are you trying to say that there are just as many amazing zerg as there are t/p yes In Korea most Definitely if i may ask how did u come to the conclusion that zvp isnt as hard as people make it seem to be? A week or so ago someone released win rating statistics of only top tournaments. TvP was about the same win % as ZvP iirc. Trying to find it again.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207640
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On April 07 2011 06:30 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 04:54 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai  Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days  ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers  Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction. I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking. The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop. Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop. More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God. You speak about 2006 as if it was the ancient past but Oov's era of domination had already passed and we were well past the early generation of micro heavy play. I don't understand how having a Broodwar background is at all relevant. They had a Broodwar background while they were playing Broodwar, but they still didn't understand paradigm shifts that were required to turn the matchup around. I disagree with that last paragraph completely. If you're ignorant of a situation, you should either admit your ignorance before giving your thoughts, or not give your thoughts at all. Hell, I think society as a whole would be much better if people followed that principle.
2006 was five years ago. That is a long time. While your right that Broodwar players had an 8 year background in 2006, Starcraft 2 players had a 12 year background in 2010.
As to my last paragraph, I'm not suggesting that ignorant people should give their ideas on balance. I'm suggesting that players like Idra should give their opinion on balance. That is, extremely knowledgeable players with extensive backgrounds in Starcraft and Starcraft 2. I maintain this opinion despite the fact that clearly Idra has not figured out Starcraft. Which is precisely what I mean when I say people can speak on complicated subjects without absolute knowledge of them.
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On April 07 2011 08:18 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:30 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:54 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction. I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking. The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop. Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop. More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God. You speak about 2006 as if it was the ancient past but Oov's era of domination had already passed and we were well past the early generation of micro heavy play. I don't understand how having a Broodwar background is at all relevant. They had a Broodwar background while they were playing Broodwar, but they still didn't understand paradigm shifts that were required to turn the matchup around. I disagree with that last paragraph completely. If you're ignorant of a situation, you should either admit your ignorance before giving your thoughts, or not give your thoughts at all. Hell, I think society as a whole would be much better if people followed that principle. 2006 was five years ago. That is a long time. While your right that Broodwar players had an 8 year background in 2006, Starcraft 2 players had a 12 year background in 2010. As to my last paragraph, I'm not suggesting that ignorant people should give their ideas on balance. I'm suggesting that players like Idra should give their opinion on balance. That is, extremely knowledgeable players with extensive backgrounds in Starcraft and Starcraft 2. I maintain this opinion despite the fact that clearly Idra has not figured out Starcraft. Which is precisely what I mean when I say people can speak on complicated subjects without absolute knowledge of them.
This BW experience == SC2 experience stuff is so weird. I get that there's generic common ground (APM...?), but seriously -- they're different games with different dynamics. That theory is just so sketchy.
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Anyone know if iNcontrol is actually planning use his webcam?
Oh and I'm not sure if this is meant as a joke on the blogspot site, but if not it seems redundant:
...and talk about PvP
Made sense for Ep 31 but not any longer.
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On April 07 2011 08:28 Clawlock wrote:
Anyone know if iNcontrol is actually planning use his webcam?
I can't find his exact post (it's somewhere earlier in this thread), but he basicly said that he has a webcam now, but he wasn't able to use it this episode because where he was the people wanted privacy from the internet, wich is understandable.
(before it was anounced that he wasn't able to be on the show).
and he added that for the show he would have to go to the office, and that he was planning to do that, so I guess that in the coming episode(s) we will probably see him via webcam.
But at this point nobody really knows except for incontrol, so maybe he stops by in this thread and clarify's what is gonna happen in the coming weeks on this subject.
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On April 07 2011 08:28 Clawlock wrote:
Anyone know if iNcontrol is actually planning use his webcam?
If I understood correctly, he doesn't use it because the people around him want to keep their privacy.
So if he keeps doing SOTG from there, he won't use a webcam anytime soon I guess (or not, only speculation here).
edit : grrrr :D
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On April 07 2011 08:32 Icx wrote:
I can't find his exact post (it's somewhere earlier in this thread), but he basicly said that he has a webcam now, but he wasn't able to use it this episode because where he was the people wanted privacy from the internet, wich is understandable.
(before it was anounced that he wasn't able to be on the show).
So I guess that in the coming episode(s) we will probably see him via webcam.
Ic ic, makes sense now thx.
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Pretty much one of the funniest things I've seen on reddit in a while,
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WVTKX.jpg)
LOL
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It's pretty well made
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On April 07 2011 08:18 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:30 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:54 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction. I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking. The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop. Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop. More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God. You speak about 2006 as if it was the ancient past but Oov's era of domination had already passed and we were well past the early generation of micro heavy play. I don't understand how having a Broodwar background is at all relevant. They had a Broodwar background while they were playing Broodwar, but they still didn't understand paradigm shifts that were required to turn the matchup around. I disagree with that last paragraph completely. If you're ignorant of a situation, you should either admit your ignorance before giving your thoughts, or not give your thoughts at all. Hell, I think society as a whole would be much better if people followed that principle. 2006 was five years ago. That is a long time. While your right that Broodwar players had an 8 year background in 2006, Starcraft 2 players had a 12 year background in 2010. As to my last paragraph, I'm not suggesting that ignorant people should give their ideas on balance. I'm suggesting that players like Idra should give their opinion on balance. That is, extremely knowledgeable players with extensive backgrounds in Starcraft and Starcraft 2. I maintain this opinion despite the fact that clearly Idra has not figured out Starcraft. Which is precisely what I mean when I say people can speak on complicated subjects without absolute knowledge of them.
Of course he can speak, but note this difference. If Idra says roach/hydra is not a good answer to protoss strategy X I will take his word for it unless I have good reasons not to. And there is productive duscussion to be had about that. But if he says Zerg is UP, I dismiss it, not because it cannot be true, maybe it is, but because there is not enough evidence for such a strong statement. And there is no productive public discussion to be had. So he can of course say his opinions and Day9 can say his and there is no way to decide who is right right now, so why waste time blabbering about it.
Note that I have nothing against Idra and other Zergs stating their opinions in public. I am against the constant balance discussions that are totally useless.
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lol... they were talking about root beer and bourbon... I believe that's called not a beer, and we've been drinking that at Harvey Mudd College for years.
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On April 07 2011 08:38 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 08:18 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 06:30 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:54 -_- wrote:On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction. I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking. The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop. Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop. More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God. You speak about 2006 as if it was the ancient past but Oov's era of domination had already passed and we were well past the early generation of micro heavy play. I don't understand how having a Broodwar background is at all relevant. They had a Broodwar background while they were playing Broodwar, but they still didn't understand paradigm shifts that were required to turn the matchup around. I disagree with that last paragraph completely. If you're ignorant of a situation, you should either admit your ignorance before giving your thoughts, or not give your thoughts at all. Hell, I think society as a whole would be much better if people followed that principle. 2006 was five years ago. That is a long time. While your right that Broodwar players had an 8 year background in 2006, Starcraft 2 players had a 12 year background in 2010. As to my last paragraph, I'm not suggesting that ignorant people should give their ideas on balance. I'm suggesting that players like Idra should give their opinion on balance. That is, extremely knowledgeable players with extensive backgrounds in Starcraft and Starcraft 2. I maintain this opinion despite the fact that clearly Idra has not figured out Starcraft. Which is precisely what I mean when I say people can speak on complicated subjects without absolute knowledge of them. Of course he can speak, but note this difference. If Idra says roach/hydra is not a good answer to protoss strategy X I will take his word for it unless I have good reasons not to. And there is productive duscussion to be had about that. But if he says Zerg is UP, I dismiss it, not because it cannot be true, maybe it is, but because there is not enough evidence for such a strong statement. And there is no productive public discussion to be had. So he can of course say his opinions and Day9 can say his and there is no way to decide who is right right now, so why waste time blabbering about it. Note that I have nothing against Idra and other Zergs stating their opinions in public. I am against the constant balance discussions that are totally useless.
Idra is not only saying that the game is broken, he is always bringing a lot of arguments, but everyone just ignores it while the only argument non-Zergs have is that the Zerg players are not good and/or are doing it wrong.
how can someone argue with that? are all PRO zergs really biased whiners?
should we expect that a new style will be developed and everything is going to change? what if it never comes? should we just get used to losing?
even Blizzard realised the game is imbalanced, see the Situation Report.
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The comparison with BW is simply invalid.
Blizzard made it a point to move away from units and abilites which were too game-changing too fast, and it's obvious from a spectator POV if you're coming from reaver drops, darkswarms/consume and what have you. There's no revolution coming in Sc2, simply because units weren't designed with "OP" abilities or stats in mind, which balanced out in BW because everyone else had some ridiculously powerful stuff.
In BW, the 3 races were, if you will, equally broken.
In Sc2, the way they balance is by making each race equally weak.
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Just wanted to say the show was great this week.
Also, when you guys first announced the new video format I was pretty indifferent... but I think this week's episode definitely showed how awesome it can be. Definitely gives the whole sitting around the digital campfire vibe when you have all 4 people streaming. Hope Geoff is able to get his set up (wherever he ends up doing it).
Also, where are the t-shirts?! JP get on that (....or something else will)
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On April 07 2011 03:13 Swarmed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 02:59 The KY wrote:
They balance by a number of methods, but whine is not one of them. Acknowledging imbalance actually goes pretty far. Once you acknowledge, even half heartedly, that something may be imbalanced, everyone interested in easy wins on ladder (and there are quite a few) is going to push it as hard as they can. As a result, either the metagame will evolve because some top players under pressure will find a solution to survive, or it will will stagnate because the pros can't figure out a counter and then the "imbalance" will become a little too obvious, calling enough attention to it that it might need to be patched. What does not help at all is denial, or militant censorship of balance discussion on the pretense that "omg you can't possibly have tried everything yet". There's what, 15 units to every race? How many per tier? It's not like there's an infinite amount of viable openings and transitions.
Rubbish. Acknowledging* (or more accurately, believing and stating) something to be imbalanced doesn't encourage pros to look for ways around it, how the fuck did you figure that? Pros will look for ways to deal with their own issues, not what the community thinks is OP. The only thing encouraged by saying 'this is too strong, I can't beat this' is hundreds of noobs suddenly feel justified in their whining and continue to whine more, which is not only not productive, it is really fucking annoying.
*not that you even can know that. Contrary to your belief there are many, many different ways to play the game, it's doesn't matter how many units there are as unit compositions scratch the surface of the strategy of the game. It was YEARS before BW was figured out.
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