EPTgreat show, Tyler and Incontrol are super funny as always
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 630
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
great show, Tyler and Incontrol are super funny as always | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:03 AnotherEon wrote: Ah i forgot the good ole 4gate into Fast expansion build Hows that working out for ya in bronze? You realise 4gateways is 600 minerals  ?miss the point to score points in a forum bitch fest! yo go girl. and its not 600 minerals, the zerg reaction to 3 gates is COMPLETELY different to 4 gates, by investing 150 minerals in a forth gate you can cause the zerg to waste 3-500 minerals on spinecrawlers, let alone they lose econ from doing so. the point is you can trick someone when they scout you, they can only be so sure of what you are doing. with that in mind its worth saying that when people say oh MC just reacts to the current meta game, his win rate suggests hes very good at reading people beyond just "oh they are 100% doing this" | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
On March 24 2011 03:49 Liquid`Tyler wrote: It doesn't lose more often at similar skill levels. That's essential to the point. It's easier to make and execute an all in build than a standard build. So if we can break down everything into two different styles, one that's riskier and one that's safer, the riskier stuff will be easier to master and the safer stuff will be harder to master. Two players with equal potential start learning SC2. One guy pursues risky style, one guy pursues safe style. The riskier player will master the game first. He'll have a higher skill level than the guy playing safe. But when the safe player's skill level catches up, he'll win more. There's nothing wrong with MC doing what he needs to do to win. Until he starts doing other styles, we can't say what he's capable of. I think people have some irrational faith in his ability to play every protoss style better than every protoss out there, and that he's playing this way only because it's dominating so much right now. Well, I don't believe that. He would have been better at SC1 if that were true. And he must know that he depends a lot on educated guesses rather than solid information. If he could win games by acting purely on solid information all the time, he would. Then he'd really be god protoss. That's the thing though... and that was my point. How do you know that safer builds are harder to master? How do you know that these safer builds even exist? Nobody is doing safer builds consistently right now and nobody is able to consistently beat MC's timing attacks. You believe that there are safer builds out there and that safer builds are better due to BW. In BW the safer builds were harder to develop and eventually won out against all-in builds. I'll give you that there's a distinct possibility that you're right... but perhaps SC2 is a completely different game than BW. Is it possible that there may not be safer builds? Is it possible that MC's play may actually be better in SC2? Is that even a small possibility? I don't think you can say with certainty that safer builds will conquer timing attacks in the long run without a major redesign by blizzard. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
And Tyler v MC finals TSL3! Make it happen. | ||
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AnotherEon
United Kingdom250 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:27 turdburgler wrote: miss the point to score points in a forum bitch fest! yo go girl. and its not 600 minerals, the zerg reaction to 3 gates is COMPLETELY different to 4 gates, by investing 150 minerals in a forth gate you can cause the zerg to waste 3-500 minerals on spinecrawlers, let alone they lose econ from doing so." Sorry champ, but this is not how good zergs respond to 4gate, and the unit compositions for 4gate vs 3gate expand are different you're supposed to scout for nexus anyway because of this. Wish there was a feature on TL to see someones division and rank+stats so i know when to ignore their views on strategy  | ||
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:33 AnotherEon wrote: Sorry champ, but this is not how good zergs respond to 4gate, and the unit compositions for 4gate vs 3gate expand are different you're supposed to scout for nexus anyway because of this. there's even more than that, cutting probes to get 4 gates out, obviously you will be on 1 gas, if you aren't chronoing warp gate he should notice, ect, ect. maybe it will work low diamond and down due to players not scouting efficiently but it makes little sense. | ||
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halvorg
Norway717 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:32 KevinIX wrote: Incontrol and Tyler really made todays SotG a lot of fun. I hope everyone does well in MLG. And Tyler v MC finals TSL3! Make it happen. I think we'd have to have some pretty extraordinary circumstances take place for that to happen. See the bracket : ) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Pokerstrategy_TSL/Bracket | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
On March 24 2011 03:49 Liquid`Tyler wrote: It doesn't lose more often at similar skill levels. That's essential to the point. It's easier to make and execute an all in build than a standard build. So if we can break down everything into two different styles, one that's riskier and one that's safer, the riskier stuff will be easier to master and the safer stuff will be harder to master. Two players with equal potential start learning SC2. One guy pursues risky style, one guy pursues safe style. The riskier player will master the game first. He'll have a higher skill level than the guy playing safe. But when the safe player's skill level catches up, he'll win more. There's nothing wrong with MC doing what he needs to do to win. Until he starts doing other styles, we can't say what he's capable of. I think people have some irrational faith in his ability to play every protoss style better than every protoss out there, and that he's playing this way only because it's dominating so much right now. Well, I don't believe that. He would have been better at SC1 if that were true. And he must know that he depends a lot on educated guesses rather than solid information. If he could win games by acting purely on solid information all the time, he would. Then he'd really be god protoss. So I guess the best thing to do is, while the game is still really being learned and processed, to play the riskier all-inish style a la MC, a la, MANY MANY MANYYYYYY ladder protoss's that I would get in trouble for naming, and be the best at that in order to win early on, but then later on when the game develops, refining and learning the safer build would be the best. But with the game having been out for a year, I guess theres nothing really wrong with playing riskier if it leads to wins right? | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On March 24 2011 07:06 Zlasher wrote: So I guess the best thing to do is, while the game is still really being learned and processed, to play the riskier all-inish style a la MC, a la, MANY MANY MANYYYYYY ladder protoss's that I would get in trouble for naming, and be the best at that in order to win early on, but then later on when the game develops, refining and learning the safer build would be the best. But with the game having been out for a year, I guess theres nothing really wrong with playing riskier if it leads to wins right? Well they'd be short term wins. I think the point is that players who learn how to play "safer" will have longer lasting SC2 careers at the top, while players with more risky styles will succeed until the game has been developed enough that players who play "safe" can reasonably expect to beat risky styles most of the time. What I think we have to consider is that, if Blizzard really does release the expansions when they say they will, the time when "risky" play is dominant will be longer, as each expansion will add new things that "safe" players need to figure out, so risky players will be able to capitalize on the new things longer, until the protoss expansion has been out for awhile and the game settles down. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:39 zyglrox wrote: there's even more than that, cutting probes to get 4 gates out, obviously you will be on 1 gas, if you aren't chronoing warp gate he should notice, ect, ect. maybe it will work low diamond and down due to players not scouting efficiently but it makes little sense. so we havent seen a resurgence of people just faking a 3 gate expand and just 4 gating zergs instead. see it all the time on people like incontrols stream, and thats at the top of master league. mc didnt do pretty much the same thing to july in the finals of the gsl. | ||
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AnotherEon
United Kingdom250 Posts
On March 24 2011 07:13 turdburgler wrote: so we havent seen a resurgence of people just faking a 3 gate expand and just 4 gating zergs instead. see it all the time on people like incontrols stream, and thats at the top of master league. mc didnt do pretty much the same thing to july in the finals of the gsl. whats your point bro? People do all in cheese/gimmick builds on ladder? Thats pretty redundant don't you think? You said you don't know if 4gate means they will go all in vs you or if they expand/tech, your supposed to check number of units and unit composition This is known as scouting. | ||
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itmeJP
United States1101 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:01 CookieMaker wrote: dangit when the heck is the next show going to be on itunes?? I depend on that auto-refreshing podcast :D is it really not on itunes? don't fucking scare me like this man | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:30 randplaty wrote: I'll give you that there's a distinct possibility that you're right... but perhaps SC2 is a completely different game than BW. Is it possible that there may not be safer builds? The games are based on the same fundamental logic, so it's fairly certain that they're not completely different games. If you're asking if it's possible that there's a 1 or 2 base timing attack that will end up being a player's best option in the long run and that it becomes so powerful that nothing can rival it in terms of success rate over a really long period of time (a year or so) and every player of that race ends up doing it, then I suppose there's a remote possibility that could happen with SC2. But that would also mean that the game is essentially broken, because nobody interested in SC2 wants the game to be revolving around a futuristic variant of a 4/6 Gate in 2014 - nobody would play it, and nobody would watch it because it would make no sense. We're not talking about some sort of a "playstyle" or "vision" that MC happens to have, it's just an abuse of the fact that people haven't yet learned the game and solved the timings puzzle to the smallest detail. The SC2 we've been watching so far is really crude and rough around the edges because of it, and for me and I suppose for most people that have been following BW scene it's really hard to be genuinely impressed by the games that current SC2 programers show. Obviously one can't hate on MC for doing it to win tournaments and cash, but it does go over the edge when you hear him say how his game is "perfect", whereas it's really really far from that. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
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Scrandom
Canada2819 Posts
Also I'm pretty disgusted that they are allowed to give their biased opinions on everything but the viewers who leave their counter biased opinions are ridiculed on air sarcastically. It really makes no sense, kind of a "high-horse" feeling to the show. | ||
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rushian
United Kingdom568 Posts
So that means there's two possibilities: first that he's just really lucky (some people seem to genuinely believe this). Or secondly that he's a superior player. For me it's the second one, and from watching pretty much all his games since GSL2 he has two things about his play that set him apart, his unit control and his in-game decision making. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 24 2011 08:01 Scrandom wrote: What Tyler was saying about how he hates MC's playstyle and he was comparing him to BW players like Bisu and Stork and how they clearly dominated their opponents, I don't think it's fair to make that comparison because SC2 is so different that the way MC played is how you win in starcraft 2 its not the same as BW. Also I'm pretty disgusted that they are allowed to give their biased opinions on everything but the viewers who leave their counter biased opinions are ridiculed on air sarcastically. It really makes no sense, kind of a "high-horse" feeling to the show. WHAT THE FUCK? Did you call us horses? TAKE IT BACKKKKKKKKKKKKK | ||
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Scrandom
Canada2819 Posts
On March 24 2011 08:28 iNcontroL wrote: WHAT THE FUCK? Did you call us horses? TAKE IT BACKKKKKKKKKKKKK I was being mature, thought it would produce discussion  | ||
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brz
United States42 Posts
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