On June 03 2011 12:38 masterchip27 wrote: If you're not asking for censorship, then do you still think it is wrong for me to use the term "rape" describing a game with a friend who takes 0 offense to it and is not misogynist? If you think it's wrong, then it sure sounds like you're asking for people to censor themselves, if not, then I'd tend to agree with you.
One person can't ask another person to "censor themselves" since censorship involved some kind of governing or controlling body to impose a rule on expression. This isn't a debate about censorship and I wish people would stop trying to paint it as some kind of FREE SPEECH AMERICA FUCK YEAH thing.
I don't think it should be illegal for you to say "dude I raped that protoss" to one guy in a room. It doesn't necessarily do any harm either, but I think more people should question their use of the word in a world in which one in six women are raped at least once in their lifetime (and one in 33 men). Rape is woefully prevalent and terrifyingly under-prosecuted, which indicates that somehow it's far more legitimized and taken far less seriously than it should be.
That culture is the context and the debate is about whether or not we should be using words and concepts in a way that downplays their significance. Of COURSE context matters; if I climb into bed and whisper "rape" quietly into my pillow, no fairies cry. But if someone like Destiny broadcasts a rape joke to thousands of people, could he cause immediate and actual harm to a listener who happens to be a rape survivor with post-traumatic stress disorder and related psychological triggers? It's very possible. And if that isn't happening, is he playing his part in a culture that allows rape to happen too often and doesn't punish it frequently enough or harshly enough? Obviously I accept that that's debatable. But I say yes, to a small degree. And choosing a different fucking word is a pretty small price to pay to be safe. It's not like saying "rape" is an hilariously original joke at this point.
I take issue with a lot of what you say here. I'd find it rather disturbing if you were whispering "rape" quietly into your pillow, and I'd have no problem if you used it publicly in a non-sexual context, or just like you used the word "fuck" at the end of your post.
The reasoning that some rape victim might hear the word, get offended, hurt and suffer a psychological trigger event is idiotic in my opinion. This reasoning is equal to me saying that everybody that I know owns at least one pair of blue jeans, therefore there is high probability that rape victims have been raped by someone wearing a pair of blue jeans, and in conclusion we should all just not wear blue jeans in public.
Destiny made a great point on how far you can go with this line of thought, what about "nuke", "kill", "massacre" etc? Hell, for a world war 2 survivor of the nazi camps I'd guess even the word "shower" can be traumatic if you go on this tangent of though.
Context is all that mattters, words no matter what else they can describe are just there to put a point across. The context in which "rape" is being used in gaming for me coveys a very precise emotion of such an overwhelming victory that boosts your ego in a way only online gaming can. And saying that you raped or are going to rape someone in this context is far less disrespectfull or hurtfull to the individual than just blankly labeling them as an idiot.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm ignoring your entire post, but are you kidding me? Calling someone a retard is not just labeling them an idiot, I honestly don't even want to go far into this subject. Clearly from your text it seems that you don't have a family member/close friend that suffers from mental retardation, why is it ok to label rape as offensive/shouldnt be used in a kiddingly way while retard is ok to joke around with? I hope you can open your mind to other aspects of the world, I myself have a close family member who suffers from the disease, and does his best to go on with his life.
Where is context ok, is where I would respond to you. If the term 'rape' isnt allowed to be used around in a jokingly fashion then why is 'retard' or 'retarded' allowed to be used? Why is it ok for some to be defensive about the term/action rape, but not retard, or other forms of insults that have conveyed themselves into insults/jokes/modern language?
Using retard is a FAR more offensive term to me, but I suppose that is because I have respect for those who weren't as well set off as the rest of us from birth, while rape is a violent, terrible act, having mental problems is such a tough challenge in life.
I agree, calling someone idiot is far more dismissive and/or offensive than using the word rape to describe something.
But look, noone is celebrating because of the fact that there are people with disabilities when they use such words to push a compeltely different point across. If I say that something/someone is retarded I am not making a case that they suffer from a mental disability (or whatever the politicaly correct term is) it isn't even a stab at mentally retarded people, it is a joke/stab at the other person's opinions or actions, and by coloring them to the extreme we can describe our thoughts and beliefs better.
And this is the point that I am trying to make. If people need to change something, it is not the way they talk and what words they use but rather they should just learn to pay more attention to the context and intent of the post/discussion and not just rage off on the first word that out of context is derogatory. If this is acheived we get still to have colorfull use of words, interesting debates and mutual respect. And if we go down the road the SOTG crew suggested then we just ignore the issue alltogether, people will still find some other words to be outraged about, context will still be ignored and with that every point that you're trying to push across and explain gets lost due to semantics.
The problem with your line of thinking here is that calling someone retarded is 100% a slight against people who do suffer from mental retardation. You are using a term which refers to a specific group of people as the negative in your attack. I agree your obviously not meaning to be offensive to that group, but the fact is in your example you are.
I fail to se the logic behind the argument, really. How can it be that calling a comment/argument/action retarded in a context that has nothing to do with people that suffer from mental retardation be a slight against them? I guess that if by using slang I'd say that something "is gay" (for example: "loosing to mutalisk harass is gay") you'd call me a homophobe or maybe a gaybasher?
So it all must be context sensitive. When people comment online they usually do not know the other poster, so as weird as though it may sound they actually treat them as equals and do not take into consideration any sensitivities they might have to certain issues. And unless the other poster decides to make it an issue (which always derails the topic and completely ignores the context), the "offender" has no way of knowing and with that no way of having intent to harm with his words in such a fashion.
On June 03 2011 17:51 lichter wrote: retard –verb (used with object) 1. to make slow; delay the development or progress of (an action, process, etc.); hinder or impede.
The word "retarded" isn't solely used to describe people with mental retardation or disability. It can be used in other unrelated contexts as well.
Can a better, less politically incorrect (seriously, I hate this PC bullshit, but I understand why people go with it) word be used? Yeah, sure. But just because someone uses the word "retard" or "retarded", doesn't mean they are talking about, insulting, disparaging, etc, the mentally handicapped. They COULD be using it in a contextually appropriate way.
For example:
"His strategy was retarded by that gas steal"
I understand that people will RARELY, if ever, use the term retard correctly, but that doesn't mean that everyone who uses the word is an insensitive jerk. They may just know what the word means.
But yeah some people really are jerks. Context context.
Right on the money. But I'd go even further. Even if someone uses a word that is originaly derogatory but slang has created other uses for it, people should just check the context and see if a statement is public call for mass rape on all genders indiscriminately or is just.. well just a figure of speech?
On June 02 2011 17:05 Maliris wrote: incontrol is definitely not on the same level as demuslim and idra, make all the excuses you want for him
mlg says otherwise, but i guess that due to imbalance
top4 mlg after cheesing everyone is the same as top8 in the GSL? Interesting
Oh fuck off, I saw most of his matches at mlg. The one series people refer to is vs TLO but those games weren't cheesy at all. TLO should have scouted the damn pylon in his base and then he did a risky build on ST IIRC and lost to a strong push.
Inc did really well at MLG and is clearly a very good player. Every single pro would agree that he is near the top in NA. This doesn't change when he says some stupid shit.
I think even inc would disagree with you on the bolded part. Hell, that's the series where he called himself a giant quesadilla in the post-game interview on the main stage.
On June 02 2011 17:05 Maliris wrote: incontrol is definitely not on the same level as demuslim and idra, make all the excuses you want for him
mlg says otherwise, but i guess that due to imbalance
top4 mlg after cheesing everyone is the same as top8 in the GSL? Interesting
Oh fuck off, I saw most of his matches at mlg. The one series people refer to is vs TLO but those games weren't cheesy at all. TLO should have scouted the damn pylon in his base and then he did a risky build on ST IIRC and lost to a strong push.
Inc did really well at MLG and is clearly a very good player. Every single pro would agree that he is near the top in NA. This doesn't change when he says some stupid shit.
I think even inc would disagree with you on the bolded part. Hell, that's the series where he called himself a giant quesadilla in the post-game interview on the main stage.
Yeah exactly. Kinda cute that people think warpgate all ins aren't cheesy :p
Really gonna miss InControl he was arguably the best of the Pillars for his high brow humor and lack of randomly insulting people and calling people that dare to speak against him haters. He was also the best progamer in the World after his top 4 MLG finish. Peace out Geoff xx
Really gonna miss InControl he was arguably the best of the Pillars for his high brow humor and lack of randomly insulting people and calling people that dare to speak against him haters. He was also the best progamer in the World after his top 4 MLG finish. Peace out Geoff xx
JP presses his bomb button: BOOM irony explodes.
on topic....SotG really kept their promise. They would let geoff go with a bang. and now...look at the last 30 pages of this threat. Thats how a bang looks like.
On June 02 2011 17:05 Maliris wrote: incontrol is definitely not on the same level as demuslim and idra, make all the excuses you want for him
mlg says otherwise, but i guess that due to imbalance
top4 mlg after cheesing everyone is the same as top8 in the GSL? Interesting
Oh fuck off, I saw most of his matches at mlg. The one series people refer to is vs TLO but those games weren't cheesy at all. TLO should have scouted the damn pylon in his base and then he did a risky build on ST IIRC and lost to a strong push.
Inc did really well at MLG and is clearly a very good player. Every single pro would agree that he is near the top in NA. This doesn't change when he says some stupid shit.
I think even inc would disagree with you on the bolded part. Hell, that's the series where he called himself a giant quesadilla in the post-game interview on the main stage.
Yeah exactly. Kinda cute that people think warpgate all ins aren't cheesy :p
Well there is a difference between a straight-up 4 gate and 4 gating after successfully hiding a probe in someone's base. It's not like it was planed and he'd be a complete idiot not to 4 gate in that situation. You could call it cheese but I don't really see it that way.
On June 02 2011 17:05 Maliris wrote: incontrol is definitely not on the same level as demuslim and idra, make all the excuses you want for him
mlg says otherwise, but i guess that due to imbalance
top4 mlg after cheesing everyone is the same as top8 in the GSL? Interesting
Oh fuck off, I saw most of his matches at mlg. The one series people refer to is vs TLO but those games weren't cheesy at all. TLO should have scouted the damn pylon in his base and then he did a risky build on ST IIRC and lost to a strong push.
Inc did really well at MLG and is clearly a very good player. Every single pro would agree that he is near the top in NA. This doesn't change when he says some stupid shit.
I think even inc would disagree with you on the bolded part. Hell, that's the series where he called himself a giant quesadilla in the post-game interview on the main stage.
Yeah exactly. Kinda cute that people think warpgate all ins aren't cheesy :p
Well there is a difference between a straight-up 4 gate and 4 gating after successfully hiding a probe in someone's base. It's not like it was planed and he'd be a complete idiot not to 4 gate in that situation. You could call it cheese but I don't really see it that way.
And that is still only one match.
Hahahah, it's not cheesy if you deliberately plant a proxy pylon.
On June 02 2011 17:05 Maliris wrote: incontrol is definitely not on the same level as demuslim and idra, make all the excuses you want for him
mlg says otherwise, but i guess that due to imbalance
top4 mlg after cheesing everyone is the same as top8 in the GSL? Interesting
Oh fuck off, I saw most of his matches at mlg. The one series people refer to is vs TLO but those games weren't cheesy at all. TLO should have scouted the damn pylon in his base and then he did a risky build on ST IIRC and lost to a strong push.
Inc did really well at MLG and is clearly a very good player. Every single pro would agree that he is near the top in NA. This doesn't change when he says some stupid shit.
I think even inc would disagree with you on the bolded part. Hell, that's the series where he called himself a giant quesadilla in the post-game interview on the main stage.
Yeah exactly. Kinda cute that people think warpgate all ins aren't cheesy :p
Well there is a difference between a straight-up 4 gate and 4 gating after successfully hiding a probe in someone's base. It's not like it was planed and he'd be a complete idiot not to 4 gate in that situation. You could call it cheese but I don't really see it that way.
And that is still only one match.
Hahahah, it's not cheesy if you deliberately plant a proxy pylon.
Good stuff.
How the hell did you reach that conclusion from what's written above?
Being from the US, I would assume you don't have any problems comprehending the english language.
On June 02 2011 17:05 Maliris wrote: incontrol is definitely not on the same level as demuslim and idra, make all the excuses you want for him
mlg says otherwise, but i guess that due to imbalance
top4 mlg after cheesing everyone is the same as top8 in the GSL? Interesting
Oh fuck off, I saw most of his matches at mlg. The one series people refer to is vs TLO but those games weren't cheesy at all. TLO should have scouted the damn pylon in his base and then he did a risky build on ST IIRC and lost to a strong push.
Inc did really well at MLG and is clearly a very good player. Every single pro would agree that he is near the top in NA. This doesn't change when he says some stupid shit.
I think even inc would disagree with you on the bolded part. Hell, that's the series where he called himself a giant quesadilla in the post-game interview on the main stage.
Yeah exactly. Kinda cute that people think warpgate all ins aren't cheesy :p
Well there is a difference between a straight-up 4 gate and 4 gating after successfully hiding a probe in someone's base. It's not like it was planed and he'd be a complete idiot not to 4 gate in that situation. You could call it cheese but I don't really see it that way.
And that is still only one match.
Hahahah, it's not cheesy if you deliberately plant a proxy pylon.
Good stuff.
How the hell did you reach that conclusion from what's written above?
Being from the US, I would assume you don't have any problems comprehending the english language.
The part where you said it isn't cheese if you're able to 4-gate with a probe proxying inside their base, that part? The whole thing, I guess.
I'm not even criticizing iNcontrol for seizing an opportunity, I just have to laugh if someone tries to convince himself that 4-gate isn't cheesy, and even somehow becomes less cheesy if your pylon's in their main.
On June 02 2011 17:05 Maliris wrote: incontrol is definitely not on the same level as demuslim and idra, make all the excuses you want for him
mlg says otherwise, but i guess that due to imbalance
top4 mlg after cheesing everyone is the same as top8 in the GSL? Interesting
Oh fuck off, I saw most of his matches at mlg. The one series people refer to is vs TLO but those games weren't cheesy at all. TLO should have scouted the damn pylon in his base and then he did a risky build on ST IIRC and lost to a strong push.
Inc did really well at MLG and is clearly a very good player. Every single pro would agree that he is near the top in NA. This doesn't change when he says some stupid shit.
I think even inc would disagree with you on the bolded part. Hell, that's the series where he called himself a giant quesadilla in the post-game interview on the main stage.
Yeah exactly. Kinda cute that people think warpgate all ins aren't cheesy :p
Well there is a difference between a straight-up 4 gate and 4 gating after successfully hiding a probe in someone's base. It's not like it was planed and he'd be a complete idiot not to 4 gate in that situation. You could call it cheese but I don't really see it that way.
On June 02 2011 17:05 Maliris wrote: incontrol is definitely not on the same level as demuslim and idra, make all the excuses you want for him
mlg says otherwise, but i guess that due to imbalance
top4 mlg after cheesing everyone is the same as top8 in the GSL? Interesting
Oh fuck off, I saw most of his matches at mlg. The one series people refer to is vs TLO but those games weren't cheesy at all. TLO should have scouted the damn pylon in his base and then he did a risky build on ST IIRC and lost to a strong push.
Inc did really well at MLG and is clearly a very good player. Every single pro would agree that he is near the top in NA. This doesn't change when he says some stupid shit.
I think even inc would disagree with you on the bolded part. Hell, that's the series where he called himself a giant quesadilla in the post-game interview on the main stage.
Yeah exactly. Kinda cute that people think warpgate all ins aren't cheesy :p
Well there is a difference between a straight-up 4 gate and 4 gating after successfully hiding a probe in someone's base. It's not like it was planed and he'd be a complete idiot not to 4 gate in that situation. You could call it cheese but I don't really see it that way.
And that is still only one match.
he did a warpgate all in in game one as well.
I though that pylon game was game one... I might be mixing up the later series or s-th.
But honestly, none of that matters. Inc did really well at MLG. And he is a very good player and no amount of pylon shenanigans will change that. That was my original point and I'm sticking to it.
You guys can go into some other thread to argue over the validity of cheesy wins and unfair tournament formats.
dont use the word "nuke" you could harm some people who had experience the brutal reality... this is a endless list.
if u dont want to harm anybody with your words, the audience (except some idiots) will know your intension and will not be harmed in any way.
just keep being authentic. if you are a racist, the people will recognize it. if you dont are, they will recognize that too. to take some words out their context and punish em dont make sense.
I did vr pressure game 1 and killed his all-in fast tank and marine in the middle of the map. Game 2 I 4 gated in his base. Every series after that including another match with tlo I did 0 cheese
I think JP needs to get his shit together a little bit and take more control of the show. If someone else was doing the same podcast with more effort put into, I wouldn't watch SotG.
You should listen to old 1upYours podcasts when Garret Smith was hosting. Or listen to GiantBombcasts. It's time to step your game up, JP, cause it really seems like all your doing is putting these people in a skype call and hoping InControl entertains everyone for you. (thanks inControl!)
Day9 was just itching to sexily answer some questions but you just didnt have anything to ask him.
On June 04 2011 00:07 iNcontroL wrote: I did vr pressure game 1 and killed his all-in fast tank and marine in the middle of the map. Game 2 I 4 gated in his base. Every series after that including another match with tlo I did 0 cheese
Incontrol you are quickly becoming my favourite community personality not only because of your straight up hilarity, but because you interact with us hate-mongering, noobie, complaining forum assholes.
On June 03 2011 15:39 SSLPrism wrote: I thought the appropriate language talk was very hypocritical from some of the people involved, not just when they defended that certain words were ok while others werent, the fact that they've used the same terminology before.
Criticizing someone's play IS 100% exactly what I JUST THIS THREAD said was fine. It was as fucking constructive as it gets. If I said "LOLOLOL SELECT SUCKS" I would be doing what that comment says.
jesus fucking christ I shouldn't reply to this trash but I can't help it."
Maybe I'm just alone in thinking part of this episode was very ironic/hypocritical.
I think that some people went too far in the past (just look at some of Day9's early casts) and slowly realize that using such childish immature swearing language actually doesnt make you a grown up adult. Trying to change your habits does take time, so only the future will tell if iNcontrol stops swearing (not even using it for those aggressive jokes he loves) and wasnt hypocritical or if he doesnt do it and was hypocritical. Personally I hope for the first.
There are just some people who have realized the importance of language, while others dont care or want to be the 13 year old rebels who use "forbidden words" to make themselves sound more grown up. Well here is a hint: you dont sound more grown up, you just sound dumber than you might be.
Just try it yourself ... dont use "shit" and "fuck" at all for a week and see how easy it is. It isnt if you were used to using those words reguarly, so it isnt a "flip the switch" thing.
To respond to your last statement/question/proposition, I don't feel the need to change my vocabulary, I'm confident in saying shit, fuck, I'm also completely fine with others using "Rape" "Retard", because I just ignore it/block it out.
Basically I'm confident in my vocabulary, you don't need random "intellectual words" and not curse to be a smart person, just be confident in the language you use. Theres absolutely no need to change your vocabulary to a 'false' vocabulary if that is not who you are, doing so would result in you being someone you truly aren't.
Sure ... talk like shit and thats what you are? Make a lot of nigger jokes and you are a racist? You totally miss the point that such "low quality vocabulary" will always be low quality and the longer you keep it the longer you will be in the "lower levels of society". Your choice (and I am perfectly fine with that) ... as long as you dont stream and others are listening.
Streamers / casters are responsibile for what they say and thats the issue here. People will claim "freedom of expression" and "not wanting to use false words", but they are still responsible. You know why TV presenters dont say certain words and why they are BEEPed when they are said anyways. Its because your culture has its standards set in a certain way. Just because the internet is a "lawless" and "worldwide" open space doesnt mean you should sink to the lowest standard and be a shittalking idiot who makes nigger jokes (or whatever insulting stuff you can imagine) just to get famous for doing so. That will probably only work for a short time anyways, because once certain organizations catch wind of it they will raise hell to stop it ...
D&D had its anti-satanist witch hunt, rap had its dirty lyrics stickers forced on and so on. Sure, both of these still exist, but none of them relies on sponsorships for its survival. I can easily imagine Justin TV getting pressured into denying revenues to Starcraft streams and that will hurt the whole scene. So who wants to be the idiot who brings this down on us just to please his own laziness, non-education and ego? Destiny seems pretty well versed in the english language, but he chooses to lower his standards for his program. That isnt a good choice and the same applies to djWheat.
There is also the second level of the responsibility towards the viewers. Just like rappers or other street artist behaviours have influenced youth the commentaries of streamers / casters will shape the language of their fans. Saying "they dont have to talk like I do" is stupid, because it isnt a conscious decision. Thats what these people have to realize ... and it is exactly where their responsibility lies.
On June 02 2011 17:05 Maliris wrote: incontrol is definitely not on the same level as demuslim and idra, make all the excuses you want for him
mlg says otherwise, but i guess that due to imbalance
top4 mlg after cheesing everyone is the same as top8 in the GSL? Interesting
Oh fuck off, I saw most of his matches at mlg. The one series people refer to is vs TLO but those games weren't cheesy at all. TLO should have scouted the damn pylon in his base and then he did a risky build on ST IIRC and lost to a strong push.
Inc did really well at MLG and is clearly a very good player. Every single pro would agree that he is near the top in NA. This doesn't change when he says some stupid shit.
Indeed. Incontrol might not be superamazing omg wtf godly, but he 100% deserved his placing at MLG for how well he played at the event. People who are trying to take that away from him are pretty silly.
He was deserving for how the format of the tournament is. Did he get a seed because someone withdraw? Did he have some luck with his opponents? Did others have a much harder time reaching the top 10? Did he get completely outplayed in his last couple of matches?
What I find annoying about the MLG format is when you get 4th place by winning 2 Bo3 1 Bo5 and losing 3 BO3. You basicly go 50/50 wins/losses against players who people didnt consider to be the very best and he end up 4th place somehow.
Yes he was deserving for how the format is, but he sure as hell had everything going for him in Dallas
On June 04 2011 00:07 iNcontroL wrote: I did vr pressure game 1 and killed his all-in fast tank and marine in the middle of the map. Game 2 I 4 gated in his base. Every series after that including another match with tlo I did 0 cheese
Thanks for clearing that up. GL today and tomorrow and sunday (hopefully?!)
EPT
