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On May 07 2011 19:57 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 19:51 karpo wrote:On May 07 2011 19:40 Arisen wrote:
People just aren't willing to listen...
IdrA says: Zerg have a hard time scouting early game because of building walls and denying overlord scouting. Because Zerg doesn't have a build that defends against everything early game without leaving your economy behind, if he denies scouting and you guessed wrong, you are at a disadvantage because with those same building walls, you don't have a lot of agression potential if you overcompensate.
People Hear: Zerg is underpowered, Terran and Protoss are ridiculously overpowered and zerg will never ever win anything.
People respond: Nuh - Uh, that's not what Day[9] said! You're just whining! What possible experience could you have in this arena!?
Guess what? IdrA puts in more time into this game than just about anyone not living in Korea. He is insanely good. He has some of the best mechanics in the world. Do you think he and just about every other zerg out there are losing as some sort of grand scheme to hit Terran and Protoss with the nerf bat and small buffs applied to zerg and suddenly bust out the "real" playstyle in 6 months cackling madly "hahaha, we were overpowered the whole time!"? No. He and just about every zerg is having problems in this arena. It's so easy to get into a disadvantaged spot early game. What top Zerg hasn't expressed that they think zerg is disadvantaged? I can't think of any.
Sure, IdrA is a lot more vocal, or at least a lot more accessible to teh foreigner community, so everyone hears him and he has a ton of anti fans because he's vocal. That's fine, you don't have to like someone just because they're good at starcraft, however, don't be a mindless sheep who blindly disagrees because he's talking about how (*gasp*) zerg feels vulnerable in the early game. Access what he's trying to say, because he's not saying it for the fuck of it, he's saying it because that's what goes on. People don't bother listening to him cause there's nuggets of truth in a sea of whine. He's not objective and to me he's one of the last people i'd want to hear discussing balance. Also people dislike him not cause he's vocal but cause he is very selfcentered, whiny and bad mannered. It's kinda like a politician that has a few good ideas but is overall a ranting overexaggerating loudmouth. Not many will listen to a guy like that even though some of the things he say might be true. Your overall atittude, objectivity and presentation of arguments is the base for a good discussion. To me and many others Idra doesn't have any of those qualities. To simply put. Why should anyone listen to a guy who wins a finals playing Zerg and turns around and says Zerg is "unwinnable".
Pro players are here to win games, not play a race that has less chance at winning than other races in the same game.
Idra is not saying the game is unwinnable for zerg. He is saying that there are very few good zergs who win turnaments and he blames it on the race having too few early game options and being designed wrong.
Day9 stated that the game eventually will reach an equilibrium where a standard has been established.
Day9 also said the game is still young and because of patches that point is likely to not be reached.
If day9 and idra are both correct then if zerg with is not fixed with HOTS an entire race will start to dissapear from competitive play.
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On May 07 2011 21:30 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 21:23 Sqq wrote:
I think the fact that NesTea made it to the final kind of proves IdrAs points. If you watch the games, NesTea has to play many times better than his opponent to even stand a chance of winning. The raw skill difference between scfOu and IMNesTea where huge still it was a close game. Should that be the way the game is ? That the level of skill required to play Zerg at a top level has to be so many levels above the skill level required to play Terran or Protoss ? A Zerg making it to the final proves that Zerg is underpowered? I guess you would say the same if a Zerg wouldn't had reached the final, so no matter what Idra is right. Also how did you come to the conclusion that Nestea is much better than SC?
He has to manage his larva ( no mistakes or you are behind on production ) , Expand all the time (Larva management on multiple larvas) , the pure decision making, when to attack, when to hold back, while at the same time manage you're queen, expansions. Careful composing a force that can break the standard army of Terran while baiting back and forth to hold sC of long enough for the army to arrive. I can go on and on. He just has to do so much more in the space of a game, micro, decisions, macro, mechanics.
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On May 07 2011 21:59 gnutz wrote:
Most Zerg in Sc2 play Zerg not like Zerg in BW. They play Zerg like ... BW Terran. Guess what Idra was.
Actually i have this thought from InControl not from myself.
I dont think you actaully know what your talking about lol. If u think idra plays zerg like bw terran...just wow
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On May 07 2011 23:18 Sqq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 21:30 Eury wrote:On May 07 2011 21:23 Sqq wrote:
I think the fact that NesTea made it to the final kind of proves IdrAs points. If you watch the games, NesTea has to play many times better than his opponent to even stand a chance of winning. The raw skill difference between scfOu and IMNesTea where huge still it was a close game. Should that be the way the game is ? That the level of skill required to play Zerg at a top level has to be so many levels above the skill level required to play Terran or Protoss ? A Zerg making it to the final proves that Zerg is underpowered? I guess you would say the same if a Zerg wouldn't had reached the final, so no matter what Idra is right. Also how did you come to the conclusion that Nestea is much better than SC? He has to manage his larva ( no mistakes or you are behind on production ) , Expand all the time (Larva management on multiple larvas) , the pure decision making, when to attack, when to hold back, while at the same time manage you're queen, expansions. Careful composing a force that can break the standard army of Terran while baiting back and forth to hold sC of long enough for the army to arrive. I can go on and on. He just has to do so much more in the space of a game, micro, decisions, macro, mechanics.
This doesn't go anywhere. I could compile a equally impressive list of what a good terran has to do against a zerg. From your icon i guess you play zerg and can appreciate how hard top level zerg is. I'm guessing top level terrans will be in awe of how well people like sC or MVP plays too.
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On May 07 2011 23:20 Tabbris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 21:59 gnutz wrote:
Most Zerg in Sc2 play Zerg not like Zerg in BW. They play Zerg like ... BW Terran. Guess what Idra was.
Actually i have this thought from InControl not from myself. I dont think you actaully know what your talking about lol. If u think idra plays zerg like bw terran...just wow
lol :D
Btw have you heard that Zerg is imba because MC wins vs all the Protosses with Zerg even though he does not play Zerg?
I like the korean attitude more, in Korea all races are UP and OP at the same time :D Shows good manner lol.
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On May 07 2011 23:26 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 23:18 Sqq wrote:On May 07 2011 21:30 Eury wrote:On May 07 2011 21:23 Sqq wrote:
I think the fact that NesTea made it to the final kind of proves IdrAs points. If you watch the games, NesTea has to play many times better than his opponent to even stand a chance of winning. The raw skill difference between scfOu and IMNesTea where huge still it was a close game. Should that be the way the game is ? That the level of skill required to play Zerg at a top level has to be so many levels above the skill level required to play Terran or Protoss ? A Zerg making it to the final proves that Zerg is underpowered? I guess you would say the same if a Zerg wouldn't had reached the final, so no matter what Idra is right. Also how did you come to the conclusion that Nestea is much better than SC? He has to manage his larva ( no mistakes or you are behind on production ) , Expand all the time (Larva management on multiple larvas) , the pure decision making, when to attack, when to hold back, while at the same time manage you're queen, expansions. Careful composing a force that can break the standard army of Terran while baiting back and forth to hold sC of long enough for the army to arrive. I can go on and on. He just has to do so much more in the space of a game, micro, decisions, macro, mechanics. This doesn't go anywhere. I could compile a equally impressive list of what a good terran has to do against a zerg. From your icon i guess you play zerg and can appreciate how hard top level zerg is. I'm guessing top level terrans will be in awe of how well people like sC or MVP plays too.
This is essentially the issue when people speak about balance. They speak from a point of view rather than from all points of view. It's a constant assumption that every other race has things easier than you do. Or more importantly, it's that you recognize all of the weaknesses with your own race and all of the strengths of opponent's races, without being able to recognize their weaknesses as well, the issues they have to deal with.
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On May 07 2011 23:35 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 23:20 Tabbris wrote:On May 07 2011 21:59 gnutz wrote:
Most Zerg in Sc2 play Zerg not like Zerg in BW. They play Zerg like ... BW Terran. Guess what Idra was.
Actually i have this thought from InControl not from myself. I dont think you actaully know what your talking about lol. If u think idra plays zerg like bw terran...just wow lol :D Btw have you heard that Zerg is imba because MC wins vs all the Protosses with Zerg even though he does not play Zerg? I like the korean attitude more, in Korea all races are UP and OP at the same time :D Shows good manner lol.
What?
They are always saying that the own race is UP, while the others are OP.
Just like everyone else does.
Protoss just word it differently, because they fully know that Protoss is not the weakest race.
Also, until I see proof of MC's supposed ZvP abilities, I'm gonna take it as a simple balance whine.
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This 'wow zerg has to outplay their opponents so hard' attitude is total bollocks. The problem with zerg if there is one is not difficulty of mechanics or army control or need for superior game sense, it's a problem of early game scouting and possibly the badly designed roach/hydra fusion.
It's absolute rubbish to imply that Nestea was hunched over his keyboard, sweat pouring off his face, fingers dancing over the keys like lightening and brain going a hundred miles per hour playing the game of his life while SC casually played out his game. Nestea did NOT have to do 'so much more' in terms of micro, decision making, mechanics, macro. Zerg is not Super Hard Mode for l33t players only.
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On May 07 2011 23:18 Sqq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 21:30 Eury wrote:On May 07 2011 21:23 Sqq wrote:
I think the fact that NesTea made it to the final kind of proves IdrAs points. If you watch the games, NesTea has to play many times better than his opponent to even stand a chance of winning. The raw skill difference between scfOu and IMNesTea where huge still it was a close game. Should that be the way the game is ? That the level of skill required to play Zerg at a top level has to be so many levels above the skill level required to play Terran or Protoss ? A Zerg making it to the final proves that Zerg is underpowered? I guess you would say the same if a Zerg wouldn't had reached the final, so no matter what Idra is right. Also how did you come to the conclusion that Nestea is much better than SC? He has to manage his larva ( no mistakes or you are behind on production ) , Expand all the time (Larva management on multiple larvas) , the pure decision making, when to attack, when to hold back, while at the same time manage you're queen, expansions. Careful composing a force that can break the standard army of Terran while baiting back and forth to hold sC of long enough for the army to arrive. I can go on and on. He just has to do so much more in the space of a game, micro, decisions, macro, mechanics.
Please, Zerg isn't harder because all of this... larva inject isn't the equal of the mule or the chrono it's equal to the terran production and the protoss warp in, if you forget it you get behind. And for the composition i don't think he went muta, ling, bane in the middle of the game.
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On May 07 2011 23:40 The KY wrote:
This 'wow zerg has to outplay their opponents so hard' attitude is total bollocks. The problem with zerg if there is one is not difficulty of mechanics or army control or need for superior game sense, it's a problem of early game scouting and possibly the badly designed roach/hydra fusion.
It's absolute rubbish to imply that Nestea was hunched over his keyboard, sweat pouring off his face, fingers dancing over the keys like lightening and brain going a hundred miles per hour playing the game of his life while SC casually played out his game. Nestea did NOT have to do 'so much more' in terms of micro, decision making, mechanics, macro. Zerg is not Super Hard Mode for l33t players only.
That's just wrong when talking about the NesTea match... 2 drops during entire match from terran, constant mutalisk harass, if sc hadn't been an idiot and pushing out with small armies and just defend and get his 10 tanks there is absolutely nothing nestea can do on that map. To many ramps, to narrow chokes. A broad open map is harder for terran due zerg/protoss flanks... but not necessarily with good bio and control on marines/mauraders actually fucking spreading out against fungal/banelings. Whereas a narrow map just is 100% shit for zerg against any terran smart enough to get 1-2 thors.
NesTea outplayed sc by far, yet he nearly lost the game. Ffs even Losira outplayed sc by far but still lost... as tasteless said "Great waypoint here by sc!" when spamming 14 marines at a time into Losiras base, all Sc had to do was press barrack hotkey and mass marine, drop a mule now and again, and then just micro the marines spreading them out half heartedly, Losira had to larvee inject, build drones (but not to many or he loses), build zerglings, make them into banelings, then try to micro them all whilst constantly being on the verge of losing due loss of larvee.
If Sc had won I'd be godamned pissed because NesTea was by far the better player
EDIT: watching the game again, look at the resources at critical points of the game, nestea scrambles whilst sc goes from 400 to 800 resources when his second base falls yet he doesn't even start rebuilding it or start building more turrets in his base/third.
EDIT2: First Thor at 23 minutes?... give me a godamn break. Defend. Get 10 tanks, leapfrog, spread marines and 1+ thor and zerg can't do anything BUT broodlords. Which having 1-2 starports with atleast 1 reactors nullifies within 3 minutes... or instantly if the terran behoves himself to scan once during all this.
EDIT3: Sc has no mining bases, 113/200 and is pushing nesteas base... his minerals? 1400 and 1500. Great gjurb there. NesTea? 110 minerals and 1800 gas.
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all we need is a really stubborn pro terran who think that terran is harder because he has to jump between 4 production facility, build his supply depot, leap frog his tank and split his marine... infestor dps is too high and magic box ^_^
we put this terran and Idra on the same call and start recording  30k viewers ezpz
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On May 07 2011 23:52 phisku wrote:all we need is a really stubborn pro terran who think that terran is harder because he has to jump between 4 production facility, build his supply depot, leap frog his tank and split his marine... infestor dps is too high and magic box ^_^ we put this terran and Idra on the same call and start recording 30k viewers ezpz
There is MVP and then there is Cloud, but Cloud sadly whines more about Protoss.
If they could get a discussion of Idra and Gretorp it also would be nice, but Gretorp sadly isn't on the level of Cloud or Idra.
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On May 07 2011 23:55 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 23:52 phisku wrote:all we need is a really stubborn pro terran who think that terran is harder because he has to jump between 4 production facility, build his supply depot, leap frog his tank and split his marine... infestor dps is too high and magic box ^_^ we put this terran and Idra on the same call and start recording 30k viewers ezpz There is MVP and then there is Cloud, but Cloud sadly whines more about Protoss. If they could get a discussion of Idra and Gretorp it also would be nice, but Gretorp sadly isn't on the level of Cloud or Idra.
i remember cloud whined about the baneling bust of morrow :D because it was to easy to execute and gave too much of an easy win
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On May 07 2011 23:57 zeru wrote:
I knew what your post was going to be before I even read it when i saw your user name, because you are a known idra fanboy. Try to see the world from other point of views, being blinded by ignorance isn't a good thing. Your bias stinks.
Just watch the NesTea vs sCfOu series and tell me NesTea isn't doing more to get the same or less results. Especially last game, no multitasking from terran, no separation of armies to snipe bases or drops (other than the one to kill of a base with 50hp). Banking over 500 resources half the game.
I'm not talking about imbalance, just game design flaws imo. Terran; Miss a mule... get two mules/scans when needed. Zerg; Miss a larva inject... lose the game.
Also thanks for attacking me personally, that's a great way of showing the internet that you are the better person here.
There is a reason IdrA has so many fans, yes alot of it is because people love to whine. But any idiot can watch zerg games and see how retardedly easy it would be to counter banelings/infestors if people just learned to godamn always ALWAYS spread their units. But they don't. You can't dodge a siegetank or a storm (fully), but you can dodge a baneling. Fungal is instant yeah and if any zerg would be 100% perfect with their control the infestors wouldn't die so much. But if the enemy just spread out then yay you not having any effect with your casters and are now backing it up with the least cost effective army ingame and nothing to do with your casters... miss those storms? Use some feedback with the leftover energy and then archon... or just roll them with your extremely cost effective protoss army (unless theyre an entrenched terran but that's stupid to be attacking).
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On May 08 2011 00:07 zeru wrote:
Im not attacking you personally, I'm attacking your thought process and way of viewing things. There's more to in the games that you can't see. Yes nestea played better, but saying you need to be way better than your opponent to win with zerg, and that zergs have to do SOOO much more than any other race to even stand a chance is ridiculous and pretty much impossible to prove, especially towards the late game. You have to see the flaws of describing every detail of what a zerg has to do, and then simply in non detail say what other races have to do in an attempt to make zerg sound infinitely more complex than the other races.
You called me a fanboy, without countering what I was saying or taking it into account... yet you think you'd be treated differently?
Great internetting there buddy.
A zerg has to worry about more shit and consequences than any other race, always. Lose an army to a protoss deathball; Lose game. Lose army to a leapfrogging terran close to your base; Lose game. Build to many zerglings early game, or not enough; Lose game.
There is a reason terran can put on pressure with SCV's and essentially get 5-10 45hp tanks for free and still win a macrogame against a zerg whereas a zerg who loses 6 drones early game is proper fucked if the enemy handles the situation.
I'm not yelling imbalance, I just think the map sizes/design combined with the added features of chrono/mules/larva do not favor zerg the least... not to mention that zerg has no good tier 1 anti air (queens are shit and you know it, and essential to the macro so losing them is shitty) AND only zerg's macro item takes up supply. Having 3 queens lategame could be a ultralisk more.
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On May 07 2011 23:50 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 23:40 The KY wrote:
This 'wow zerg has to outplay their opponents so hard' attitude is total bollocks. The problem with zerg if there is one is not difficulty of mechanics or army control or need for superior game sense, it's a problem of early game scouting and possibly the badly designed roach/hydra fusion.
It's absolute rubbish to imply that Nestea was hunched over his keyboard, sweat pouring off his face, fingers dancing over the keys like lightening and brain going a hundred miles per hour playing the game of his life while SC casually played out his game. Nestea did NOT have to do 'so much more' in terms of micro, decision making, mechanics, macro. Zerg is not Super Hard Mode for l33t players only. That's just wrong when talking about the NesTea match... 2 drops during entire match from terran, constant mutalisk harass, if sc hadn't been an idiot and pushing out with small armies and just defend and get his 10 tanks there is absolutely nothing nestea can do on that map. To many ramps, to narrow chokes. A broad open map is harder for terran due zerg/protoss flanks... but not necessarily with good bio and control on marines/mauraders actually fucking spreading out against fungal/banelings. Whereas a narrow map just is 100% shit for zerg against any terran smart enough to get 1-2 thors. NesTea outplayed sc by far, yet he nearly lost the game. Ffs even Losira outplayed sc by far but still lost... as tasteless said "Great waypoint here by sc!" when spamming 14 marines at a time into Losiras base, all Sc had to do was press barrack hotkey and mass marine, drop a mule now and again, and then just micro the marines spreading them out half heartedly, Losira had to larvee inject, build drones (but not to many or he loses), build zerglings, make them into banelings, then try to micro them all whilst constantly being on the verge of losing due loss of larvee. If Sc had won I'd be godamned pissed because NesTea was by far the better player EDIT: watching the game again, look at the resources at critical points of the game, nestea scrambles whilst sc goes from 400 to 800 resources when his second base falls yet he doesn't even start rebuilding it or start building more turrets in his base/third. EDIT2: First Thor at 23 minutes?... give me a godamn break. Defend. Get 10 tanks, leapfrog, spread marines and 1+ thor and zerg can't do anything BUT broodlords. Which having 1-2 starports with atleast 1 reactors nullifies within 3 minutes... or instantly if the terran behoves himself to scan once during all this. EDIT3: Sc has no mining bases, 113/200 and is pushing nesteas base... his minerals? 1400 and 1500. Great gjurb there. NesTea? 110 minerals and 1800 gas.
Nestea won the series and beat Sc. So you shouldn't be goddamn pissed, you should be happy that skill won out. Seriously, what is your problem with this? Nestea didn't win by "enough"?
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EPT
