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Don't click the spoiler if you haven't watched Code S but as it stands:
+ Show Spoiler +Zerg is in a position to win it's 3rd GSL championship over the 2 of Protoss and 2 (if including World Championship) Terran. This shows at a completely literal level that Zerg CAN win which completely proves IdrA to be venting and whining.
IdrA needs to seriously cut the hyperbolic bullshit about Zerg being "unwinnable" ESPECIALLY after just winning a finals against one of the best foreigner Protoss. Like how absurd does that look.
I mean he's got to stop calling X thing imbalanced and start to fit in with the fact that Starcraft meta-game is constantly changing and along with it the dominant race/players.
IdrA thinks he should be the best because he played in Korea as a CJ Entus B-Teamer for awhile in BW. What he seems to fail to realize is that all the dominant Korean Pros of the other races were B-Teamer players for even longer than he was as well as A-Team players like friggin Mvp.
NaDa was a friggin Legend and he's not winning championships with what seems to be an overpowered race in IdrA's eyes. And NaDa was even still winning a lot of games towards the end of his BW career unlike most of the other BW pros or B-Team players that switched over.
The worst part of IdrA's whining is that it contradicts itself.
Zerg might be hard to play but saying it's unwinnable is just damn stupid and over dramatic whining.
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On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable.
As top profession you should take his word less, especially if you remember when blizzard got 6-7 pro players and asked them about each matchup. Protoss players were like stim timing too strong, terran players were like pheonix colossus can't be stopped. The thing if you left it to the pros, they will try to increase the strength of their race until they win every tourney and then some. It is how they make their money. And this is especially true for Idra, he complained about terran in scbw. If you ever seen scbw scene, you know terran dominated for pretty much since boxer revolutionized starship play.
There aren't objectively worse players. What do you objectively rate them by? APM? unspent minerals or what? The thing is good or bad, the only way to tell that the better player between two competing players in a certain given game is whether he lose or win. If you count skill Nony is much higher than ret. Nony made it to the finals of courage that was a lot higher than what ret made it to(I believe ret made it to top 8 or 4 of a courage and got knocked out really early in the other 2).
Now I am not saying zerg is easy to play. I tried to switch to zerg and went on a losing streak of like 15 games. PvZ is definitely easier for the protoss to play on my level, but this doesn't mean imbalance. Even in the best RTS and arguebly the most balanced rts "scbw", have you ever tried to break a tank line with zerg(dark swarm+burrow lurker) or try to micro mutaball versus defending marines? It is hard for one side. But guess what there will always be strats like that.
In TvZ, yes you have the point of terran early aggression is hard to predict. If you watch scfou versus nestea, despite being damaged early game. Nestea pretty much still macored up tons of drones. Zerg has the ability to do if you let a zerg drone freely he cna easily go up to 70-80 drone before a terran can get to 50 scvs. Thats the thing, terran can never let zerg pump drones freely or zerg get too far ahead. Have you ever been on the recieving end of broodlord into ultras into brood into ultas tech switch(now even harder with psistorm infestors)? It is hard to stop. Terran require timing pushes to do econ damage to zerg to get ahead whether that timing push is with 4 scvs+5-6 marines or 3-4 tanks+20 marines. It has to happen.
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On May 07 2011 17:43 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:41 Dommk wrote:On May 07 2011 17:40 WhiteDog wrote:On May 07 2011 17:35 Dommk wrote:Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners).
I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss.
Hate to break it to you, but there are a ton of Koreans who were just as good if not better than Ret/Idra now doing sub-par/terrible with this game, regardless of the race That's because they practice like hell their mechanics while it's not so important in SC2. Doesn't mean players such as ret or idra developped different skills to compete in SC1, skills that helped them more in SC2. Well ret is not doing that good. Rets strengths in SC1 were his mechanics IdrA too if you compare him to the foreigner scene. But if you compare them to other koreans, their strenght were still mechanics ?
What are you trying to say? That what allowed them to compete was their ability outside of their mechanics?
Koreas aren't machines, people had different styles, and just because they all practiced very hard to improve their mechanics does not mean that is the all they have going for them. Ret/Idra were no different to anyone else at their level.
The skill set gained in SC1 by Ret, IdrA and anyone else who played BW is valuable, but it isn't some kind of godly gift that makes them better than everyone. It has almost been a year now since the release of SC2, it WAS an advantage when the game was released, the further along you go the less what they learned actually matters. People have gotten (and still getting) better, some unfortunately left behind and a few still lay bitter, stuck in past.
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On May 07 2011 17:53 Raiznhell wrote:
IdrA needs to seriously cut the hyperbolic bullshit about Zerg being "unwinnable" ESPECIALLY after just winning a finals against one of the best foreigner Protoss. Like how absurd does that look.
I want to reiterate this point. I think IdrA is actually correct about a lot of the things he says about the current state of the game, but he piles on too many extra complaints that stray from his main point which leads to hundreds of replies that are focused on the lesser points he makes.
His base statement about zerg's feeling as though they're forced to coinflip in many situations would probably be viewed as correct by most people. He thinks it makes for bad balance, design, and games in general. He hypothesizes as to possible solutions, but should obviously be taken with a grain of salt when he does so since lots of testing would need to be done to determine what works. Then, he will complain about other balance aspects because, I believe, he thinks the initial problem wont be addressed. So he focuses his wrath on other things, which then lead to the influx of complaints about balance, qq, etc..
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On May 07 2011 17:43 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:41 Dommk wrote:On May 07 2011 17:40 WhiteDog wrote:On May 07 2011 17:35 Dommk wrote:Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners).
I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss.
Hate to break it to you, but there are a ton of Koreans who were just as good if not better than Ret/Idra now doing sub-par/terrible with this game, regardless of the race That's because they practice like hell their mechanics while it's not so important in SC2. Doesn't mean players such as ret or idra developped different skills to compete in SC1, skills that helped them more in SC2. Well ret is not doing that good. Rets strengths in SC1 were his mechanics IdrA too if you compare him to the foreigner scene. But if you compare them to other koreans, their strenght were still mechanics ?
In terms of strat and "special thinking" idra and ret is probably the the middle of the pack compared to everyone. The thing is idra and ret was only known for their mechanics that is why ret couldn't get past courage and idra is a forever b-teamer because other b-teamers had better mechanics and same or if not better understanding of the game.
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On May 07 2011 18:02 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:53 Raiznhell wrote:
IdrA needs to seriously cut the hyperbolic bullshit about Zerg being "unwinnable" ESPECIALLY after just winning a finals against one of the best foreigner Protoss. Like how absurd does that look. I want to reiterate this point. I think IdrA is actually correct about a lot of the things he says about the current state of the game, but he piles on too many extra complaints that stray from his main point which leads to hundreds of replies that are focused on the lesser points he makes. His base statement about zerg's feeling as though they're forced to coinflip in many situations would probably be viewed as correct by most people. He thinks it makes for bad balance, design, and games in general. He hypothesizes as to possible solutions, but should obviously be taken with a grain of salt when he does so since lots of testing would need to be done to determine what works. Then, he will complain about other balance aspects because, I believe, he thinks the initial problem wont be addressed. So he focuses his wrath on other things, which then lead to the influx of complaints about balance, qq, etc..
A lot of players are coin flipping. You want to know how many games I lose to roach all in because I can't get my probe past my ramp? Many many times. Im sry 1 sentry+1 zealot isnt gonna hold 4-5 roach rush.
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On May 07 2011 18:06 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 18:02 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On May 07 2011 17:53 Raiznhell wrote:
IdrA needs to seriously cut the hyperbolic bullshit about Zerg being "unwinnable" ESPECIALLY after just winning a finals against one of the best foreigner Protoss. Like how absurd does that look. I want to reiterate this point. I think IdrA is actually correct about a lot of the things he says about the current state of the game, but he piles on too many extra complaints that stray from his main point which leads to hundreds of replies that are focused on the lesser points he makes. His base statement about zerg's feeling as though they're forced to coinflip in many situations would probably be viewed as correct by most people. He thinks it makes for bad balance, design, and games in general. He hypothesizes as to possible solutions, but should obviously be taken with a grain of salt when he does so since lots of testing would need to be done to determine what works. Then, he will complain about other balance aspects because, I believe, he thinks the initial problem wont be addressed. So he focuses his wrath on other things, which then lead to the influx of complaints about balance, qq, etc.. A lot of players are coin flipping. You want to know how many games I lose to roach all in because I can't get my probe past my ramp? Many many times. Im sry 1 sentry+1 zealot isnt gonna hold 4-5 roach rush.
I'm well aware a lot of players are coin-flipping. And that's what, in IdrA's opinion, makes for a bad game. It removes the skillful aspect because if you can't properly defend or scout, there is just a straight up chance you might lose a game. Whether or not you agree it makes for bad games isn't even relevant because it's about where IdrA's comments stem from.
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On May 07 2011 18:02 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:53 Raiznhell wrote:
IdrA needs to seriously cut the hyperbolic bullshit about Zerg being "unwinnable" ESPECIALLY after just winning a finals against one of the best foreigner Protoss. Like how absurd does that look. I want to reiterate this point. I think IdrA is actually correct about a lot of the things he says about the current state of the game, but he piles on too many extra complaints that stray from his main point which leads to hundreds of replies that are focused on the lesser points he makes. His base statement about zerg's feeling as though they're forced to coinflip in many situations would probably be viewed as correct by most people. He thinks it makes for bad balance, design, and games in general. He hypothesizes as to possible solutions, but should obviously be taken with a grain of salt when he does so since lots of testing would need to be done to determine what works. Then, he will complain about other balance aspects because, I believe, he thinks the initial problem wont be addressed. So he focuses his wrath on other things, which then lead to the influx of complaints about balance, qq, etc..
Totally agree. His point that a lack of available scouting by Z at the point when P and T can decide which tech/all in they are going to do leaves Z with nothing to do but guess is a fair statement imo. Day9 kinda skirted around this with his "theoretical imbalance" stuff which other people have gone over. (it makes sense, but i don't think this kind of balancing is particularly good for the game.
He does say other things, or other people force/extrapolate other things, that cause him to come off as whiny, when many of his points are valid. His "whiny" image causes people to instantly dismiss anything regarding balance that he says, even if its a good point
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The last 20 pages of this thread pretty much sum up why the last episode of SOTG was the worst episode ever. Nothing meaningful was really discussed, no interesting insights into the game were had, and EVERYONE came off as being worse than they were before (except for Tasteless because he didn't really say anything):
Geoff came off as a debate team douche even if he "won" the debate he didn't really represent his position well.
Tyler came off as a pussy for not arguing his side strongly enough at best or an elitist jerk if you actually bought into Geoff's argument.
Greg further exemplified his whininess about balance, which even if correct don't really matter to anyone except him and his annoyingly vocal legion of followers.
Bryce was forced into a situation where he either agreed with Greg and looked like his zergling lapdog or further feed the whining.
By refusing to engage with Greg in a meaningless balance discussion, Sean came off as being ignorant of the game or at best came off as an elitist jerk for refusing to discuss balance.
JP looked like a deer in the headlights in deciding not to step in an moderate both pointless debates.
And the viewer came out feeling all the dumber. The idralings now feel that they're arguments and whine are justified because Day9 refused to engage. TL and EG fans think less of both sides given that it was all based mostly on misunderstandings/failed efforts to save face. And worst of all, this was the episode that SOTG broke 20k viewers - what a shame, especially since most of them were likely first time viewers from various places like 4chan where people created advertisement threads.
Honestly, I'm just going to pretend that last week's episode never happened and hope that the hosts take some sort of moral stand against having a 2-3 hour show filled with pointless drama just because it they got a bunch of viewers.
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On May 07 2011 18:16 Pyo wrote:
The last 20 pages of this thread pretty much sum up why the last episode of SOTG was the worst episode ever. Nothing meaningful was really discussed, no interesting insights into the game were had, and EVERYONE came off as being worse than they were before (except for Tasteless because he didn't really say anything):
Geoff came off as a debate team douche even if he "won" the debate he didn't really represent his position well.
Tyler came off as a pussy for not arguing his side strongly enough at best or an elitist jerk if you actually bought into Geoff's argument.
Greg further exemplified his whininess about balance, which even if correct don't really matter to anyone except him and his annoyingly vocal legion of followers.
Bryce was forced into a situation where he either agreed with Greg and looked like his zergling lapdog or further feed the whining.
By refusing to engage with Greg in a meaningless balance discussion, Sean came off as being ignorant of the game or at best came off as an elitist jerk for refusing to discuss balance.
JP looked like a deer in the headlights in deciding not to step in an moderate both pointless debates.
And the viewer came out feeling all the dumber. The idralings now feel that they're arguments and whine are justified because Day9 refused to engage. TL and EG fans think less of both sides given that it was all based mostly on misunderstandings/failed efforts to save face. And worst of all, this was the episode that SOTG broke 20k viewers - what a shame, especially since most of them were likely first time viewers from various places like 4chan where people created advertisement threads.
Honestly, I'm just going to pretend that last week's episode never happened and hope that the hosts take some sort of moral stand against having a 2-3 hour show filled with pointless drama just because it they got a bunch of viewers.
You make it look like you have more pent up anger than Idra did. Talking about balance is no less productive than anything else they talk about, the fact it stirs such a debate proves its relevance to a lot of people at the very least.
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On May 07 2011 17:03 maahes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:47 aksfjh wrote:On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable. See, but Idra's viewpoint is very one sided. He perfectly paints the portrait for Zerg, but doesn't take into account that the other races suffer from the same lack of early game scouting. Both Terran and Protoss have to guess with limited intel about their opponent, in ALL matchups, just like Zerg. Sure, Terran can burn a scan but at the cost of roughly 300 minerals, which actually puts Terran significantly behind economically in a macro game. Sure, Protoss can whip out an observer, phoenix, or hallucination, but they have to make their first tech decision (which is HUGE for Protoss) before they know what their opponent is doing. The ball is in the T or P's court early game - it's their position to apply pressure. Z options to do the same are extremely limited, hence Z's reactive nature. Expending 270 minerals or going robo at the expense of being safe is something that Z would love, because of the infinite things they may have to absorb in the first 10 minutes of the game.
Thats what IdrA rants on and on and on, but he - and everyone agreeing with him - is ignoring the fact that the Zerg race is designed in a certain way to start slow but to have the potential for unlimited growth. They key question for Zergs is: How do i survive long enough for my economy to become huge so I can steamroll my opponent? If IdrA doesnt like playing this way he should just switch races and shut up about it, but that would mean admitting that he has made a wrong choice and stuck with it for too long (or has been too dumb to recognize it). As long as he continues with this stupid whining he is in the "Idiot drawer" for me and is a failure for a spot in SotG.
People are also totally ignoring the fact that SC2 is a new game and thus any credibility a player has from BW isnt worth anything. Sure he has the micro / macro, but the strategic decisions are part of the game as well and especially IdrAs mindset makes him a pretty bad player. Things like "oh I was a beast in BW so I *should be* better than this 17 year old kid and *should be* beating him" make him totally arrogant and overconfident. Ultimately this has cost him a lot of games and a lot more humility on his part is needed. Just look at the way NesTea roflstomped Anypro in the code A semifinals ... with early Spine Crawler pushing and then Hydras. IdrA always claims to have tried "everything" (against the Protoss deathball), but we have never seen him do something like that. If he had tried everything he would have found this way for early pressure against overly defensive opponents and used it. Too bad Zerg players are stuck in their "I must build Zerglings or Roaches to be offensive early" mantra and IdrA is their chief priest.
tl;dr
IdrA is given too much credit in SC2. Sure he is good, BUT he is having his successes only from hard work and not so much from creativity and talent. This narrow-mindedness leads him to whining more than he should.
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On May 07 2011 17:32 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:30 Popss wrote:On May 07 2011 17:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On May 07 2011 17:04 Popss wrote:On May 07 2011 16:25 Arisen wrote:On May 07 2011 16:11 karpo wrote:On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable. Idra is good but i've seen him throw away games like noone else. Haven't reen alot of Ret's games but his GSL run was aweful and his TSL games weren't that hot. Nada was one of the best BW ever and he's not doing that awesome in SC2 either. I'm getting tired of the BW player entitlement, like their BW experience should somehow elevate them to a different plane of skill compared to everyone else. I'll listen to Idra when he's not using exaggerations and hyperbole to further his arguments. Everyone plays bad sometime. I see MC play like shit ALL THE TIME, but everyone still says he's the best in the world. Regardless if BW; IdrA is one of if not the best Zerg in the foreigner scene, if not the world. He has some valid concerns; it behooves the community to listen and learn from him. Disregarding any information he has (from countless hours of playing some of the best players in the world) is just obtuse. Reason myself and others keep bringing up BW is simply the fact that Idra was not particulary good at that game yet never stopped crying about Protoss imbalance while players like Flash (might be unfair comparison seeing how Flash is Flash) kept a >70% win ratio over players Idra would barely be able to take a game of. In SC2 however he's one of the best if not the best Zerg player and he's still crying about imbalance this and imbalance that. So for people like myself who followed BW for quite some time it's almost frustrating to have people new to the community turn into a show like SotG, listen to Idra complain about balance and think "Hey this guy is the best Zerg in the world clearly he most have a point!". No, Idra would complain about the balance of chess if he played it, that's simply how he functions. Zerg is hurting right now whether it's due to a lack of strategy or inherent imbalance is up for debate but Idra is just not someone worth listening to on the matter (as entertaining as it may be). And really thats the reason you hear the other guys at SotG keep poking fun at him like Incontrol's "Hey Idra what you think about Terran in BW?". And that ladies and gentlemen, is how you create a strawman. Ignore IdrA's comments and ideas regarding sc2 and instead focus on past comments about BW(which, by the way, you're largely misconstruing). Those comments says alot about the kind of person you're listening to. The comments you're taking out of context and also misinterpreting. IdrA had complained about Terran in the past in BW, yes, but it was primarily about the ease at which protoss could abuse Terran. That was his primary complaint. His other main statement, which is true by the way, is that terran was the hardest race to play. While at times he obviously worded poorly and would complain in a less than interesting manner, none of that changes the argument you just tried to put forward. Regardless of how well thought out or with merit IdrA's comments are, you will ignore them flat out because it's IdrA making them. Good way to enter a discussion.
Thing is those comments has discredited him as a commentator on balance issues.
Cause honestly I'm not a top player so I have a very hard time filtering what is a well thought out and relevant complaint and what is just Idra whining because he lacks as a player.
So when top players talk about balance I take it as valuable insight but it's hard as a casual player to take a critical standpoint.
However Idra has showed in the past that excuses and complaining is his forte so everything he says I take with a big grain of salt.
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On May 07 2011 17:20 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +See, but Idra's viewpoint is very one sided. He perfectly paints the portrait for Zerg, but doesn't take into account that the other races suffer from the same lack of early game scouting. Both Terran and Protoss have to guess with limited intel about their opponent, in ALL matchups, just like Zerg. Sure, Terran can burn a scan but at the cost of roughly 300 minerals, which actually puts Terran significantly behind economically in a macro game. Sure, Protoss can whip out an observer, phoenix, or hallucination, but they have to make their first tech decision (which is HUGE for Protoss) before they know what their opponent is doing. Terran and Protoss can play slightly blinder than Zerg. I'm not saying they don't have to scout, but being able to wall, and not having to make as tough of a decision between workers and units, makes a huge difference. Terran and Protoss players sometimes take for granted the whole worker/unit issue, not realizing that zerg doesn't want to have an army at all if it doesn't absolutely need it in the early game. It's a way bigger deal for Zerg to blindly make some units and feel "safe" than it is for Protoss or Terran, period, since those units could have been workers.
And Zerg often take for granted not having to prepare your production structures and tech routes long before an actual attack. There have been plenty of games against Zerg where they have thrown down a roach warren, baneling nest, or hydra den as a safety measure, only to never build any of those specific units. That is a relatively small investment for a lot of safety, just like a wall off. The thing is, there are a LOT of dynamics that affect matchups, and they often go both ways. To take a very strong stance saying "Zerg is the weakest race because _____" is often hugely slanted propaganda, because when you take a step back and take a look at the whole picture, other races have the same general problems in all matchups.
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On May 07 2011 18:16 Pyo wrote:
The last 20 pages of this thread pretty much sum up why the last episode of SOTG was the worst episode ever. Nothing meaningful was really discussed, no interesting insights into the game were had, and EVERYONE came off as being worse than they were before (except for Tasteless because he didn't really say anything):
Geoff came off as a debate team douche even if he "won" the debate he didn't really represent his position well.
Tyler came off as a pussy for not arguing his side strongly enough at best or an elitist jerk if you actually bought into Geoff's argument.
Greg further exemplified his whininess about balance, which even if correct don't really matter to anyone except him and his annoyingly vocal legion of followers.
Bryce was forced into a situation where he either agreed with Greg and looked like his zergling lapdog or further feed the whining.
By refusing to engage with Greg in a meaningless balance discussion, Sean came off as being ignorant of the game or at best came off as an elitist jerk for refusing to discuss balance.
JP looked like a deer in the headlights in deciding not to step in an moderate both pointless debates.
And the viewer came out feeling all the dumber. The idralings now feel that they're arguments and whine are justified because Day9 refused to engage. TL and EG fans think less of both sides given that it was all based mostly on misunderstandings/failed efforts to save face. And worst of all, this was the episode that SOTG broke 20k viewers - what a shame, especially since most of them were likely first time viewers from various places like 4chan where people created advertisement threads.
Honestly, I'm just going to pretend that last week's episode never happened and hope that the hosts take some sort of moral stand against having a 2-3 hour show filled with pointless drama just because it they got a bunch of viewers.
TBH I actually agree with most of that except the part about Geoff I mean Tyler I don't even think understood his own arguments and Geoff was merely defending Colbi and pretty much every TL poster out there because it seems to be that in Tyler's perfect TL after hearing his points would be that no one is allowed to post EVER unless it's what your currently thinking without being altered at all. TL would be News-less, tournament-less, and lack any and all forms of professionalism were Tyler to have his perfect TL given what he said on the show.
A forum is a place to inform, discuss, debate and simply engage with other people in a community setting. Colbi's actions fell under the inform part so in what way was he wrong at all?
As for the whole deception bit which Colbi wasn't doing but honestly even outside of a forum how often is anybody 100% truthful, how can you tell? You can't. If Tyler really trusted every post he's ever read on TL ever then I feel sad for him because forum posters for the most part are faceless so why should you trust them. Just read the damn post and take it for what it is.
The kind of posts Team Liquid shouldn't want are just retarded troll posts or meaningless posts although Nada's Body is obviously a showing that even meaningless posts are epic.
Basically the only posts TL shouldn't welcome are IdrA-like posts and TL should welcome anything that provides TL and it's posters something to talk about.
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On May 07 2011 18:02 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:53 Raiznhell wrote:
IdrA needs to seriously cut the hyperbolic bullshit about Zerg being "unwinnable" ESPECIALLY after just winning a finals against one of the best foreigner Protoss. Like how absurd does that look. I want to reiterate this point. I think IdrA is actually correct about a lot of the things he says about the current state of the game, but he piles on too many extra complaints that stray from his main point which leads to hundreds of replies that are focused on the lesser points he makes. His base statement about zerg's feeling as though they're forced to coinflip in many situations would probably be viewed as correct by most people. He thinks it makes for bad balance, design, and games in general. He hypothesizes as to possible solutions, but should obviously be taken with a grain of salt when he does so since lots of testing would need to be done to determine what works. Then, he will complain about other balance aspects because, I believe, he thinks the initial problem wont be addressed. So he focuses his wrath on other things, which then lead to the influx of complaints about balance, qq, etc..
I completely agree with this. Well put.
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People just aren't willing to listen...
IdrA says: Zerg have a hard time scouting early game because of building walls and denying overlord scouting. Because Zerg doesn't have a build that defends against everything early game without leaving your economy behind, if he denies scouting and you guessed wrong, you are at a disadvantage because with those same building walls, you don't have a lot of agression potential if you overcompensate.
People Hear: Zerg is underpowered, Terran and Protoss are ridiculously overpowered and zerg will never ever win anything.
People respond: Nuh - Uh, that's not what Day[9] said! You're just whining! What possible experience could you have in this arena!?
Guess what? IdrA puts in more time into this game than just about anyone not living in Korea. He is insanely good. He has some of the best mechanics in the world. Do you think he and just about every other zerg out there are losing as some sort of grand scheme to hit Terran and Protoss with the nerf bat and small buffs applied to zerg and suddenly bust out the "real" playstyle in 6 months cackling madly "hahaha, we were overpowered the whole time!"? No. He and just about every zerg is having problems in this arena. It's so easy to get into a disadvantaged spot early game. What top Zerg hasn't expressed that they think zerg is disadvantaged? I can't think of any.
Sure, IdrA is a lot more vocal, or at least a lot more accessible to teh foreigner community, so everyone hears him and he has a ton of anti fans because he's vocal. That's fine, you don't have to like someone just because they're good at starcraft, however, don't be a mindless sheep who blindly disagrees because he's talking about how (*gasp*) zerg feels vulnerable in the early game. Access what he's trying to say, because he's not saying it for the fuck of it, he's saying it because that's what goes on.
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On May 07 2011 19:40 Arisen wrote:
People just aren't willing to listen...
IdrA says: Zerg have a hard time scouting early game because of building walls and denying overlord scouting. Because Zerg doesn't have a build that defends against everything early game without leaving your economy behind, if he denies scouting and you guessed wrong, you are at a disadvantage because with those same building walls, you don't have a lot of agression potential if you overcompensate.
People Hear: Zerg is underpowered, Terran and Protoss are ridiculously overpowered and zerg will never ever win anything.
People respond: Nuh - Uh, that's not what Day[9] said! You're just whining! What possible experience could you have in this arena!?
Guess what? IdrA puts in more time into this game than just about anyone not living in Korea. He is insanely good. He has some of the best mechanics in the world. Do you think he and just about every other zerg out there are losing as some sort of grand scheme to hit Terran and Protoss with the nerf bat and small buffs applied to zerg and suddenly bust out the "real" playstyle in 6 months cackling madly "hahaha, we were overpowered the whole time!"? No. He and just about every zerg is having problems in this arena. It's so easy to get into a disadvantaged spot early game. What top Zerg hasn't expressed that they think zerg is disadvantaged? I can't think of any.
Sure, IdrA is a lot more vocal, or at least a lot more accessible to teh foreigner community, so everyone hears him and he has a ton of anti fans because he's vocal. That's fine, you don't have to like someone just because they're good at starcraft, however, don't be a mindless sheep who blindly disagrees because he's talking about how (*gasp*) zerg feels vulnerable in the early game. Access what he's trying to say, because he's not saying it for the fuck of it, he's saying it because that's what goes on.
People don't bother listening to him cause there's nuggets of truth in a sea of whine. He's not objective and to me he's one of the last people i'd want to hear discussing balance. Also people dislike him not cause he's vocal but cause he is very selfcentered, whiny and bad mannered.
It's kinda like a politician that has a few good ideas but is overall a ranting overexaggerating loudmouth. Not many will listen to a guy like that even though some of the things he say might be true.
Your overall atittude, objectivity and presentation of arguments is the base for a good discussion. To me and many others Idra doesn't have any of those qualities.
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On May 07 2011 19:40 Arisen wrote:
People just aren't willing to listen...
IdrA says: Zerg have a hard time scouting early game because of building walls and denying overlord scouting. Because Zerg doesn't have a build that defends against everything early game without leaving your economy behind, if he denies scouting and you guessed wrong, you are at a disadvantage because with those same building walls, you don't have a lot of agression potential if you overcompensate.
People Hear: Zerg is underpowered, Terran and Protoss are ridiculously overpowered and zerg will never ever win anything.
People respond: Nuh - Uh, that's not what Day[9] said! You're just whining! What possible experience could you have in this arena!?
Guess what? IdrA puts in more time into this game than just about anyone not living in Korea. He is insanely good. He has some of the best mechanics in the world. Do you think he and just about every other zerg out there are losing as some sort of grand scheme to hit Terran and Protoss with the nerf bat and small buffs applied to zerg and suddenly bust out the "real" playstyle in 6 months cackling madly "hahaha, we were overpowered the whole time!"? No. He and just about every zerg is having problems in this arena. It's so easy to get into a disadvantaged spot early game. What top Zerg hasn't expressed that they think zerg is disadvantaged? I can't think of any.
Sure, IdrA is a lot more vocal, or at least a lot more accessible to teh foreigner community, so everyone hears him and he has a ton of anti fans because he's vocal. That's fine, you don't have to like someone just because they're good at starcraft, however, don't be a mindless sheep who blindly disagrees because he's talking about how (*gasp*) zerg feels vulnerable in the early game. Access what he's trying to say, because he's not saying it for the fuck of it, he's saying it because that's what goes on.
WHat I have a problem with is every race has trouble scouting not just zerg. At least zerg have ovie to get near edge of base and zergling to continously run up ramp to check what unit is at wall. Think about what toss and terran does to scout. Terran do have scan but it is extremely costly. It basically cost as much as blindly putting down 2 spine crawler. Protoss also has trouble scouting past its own ramp. Other than pool timing, toss sees nothing. Idra has only been saying zerg has trouble scouting. Why hasn't he addressed other races? Sentry is good at defense but if you rush early 1-2 sentry can't hold ramp indefintely especially if you hit before warpgate. Terrans also constantly fear baneling bust. I mean if you just look at progression of toss builds and zerg builds. People are adapting to less scouting info. At beginning of beta, toss basically went forge expand(not counting 2 gate zealots bullshit in close position) copied from broodwar in every game/every map, but toss players soon realized can't hold against many all ins of zerg and switched to a much less econ opening. Zerg has also been doing a lot more speedling openings instead of hatch first. The thing you can't just talk about giving zerg this and that. At this time, all race is doing a lot of guessing. If you give 1 race a lot more info then the others what will happen? I agree mechanically idra is a good player, but taking balance advice from a pro is never smart for obvious reasons.
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On May 07 2011 19:51 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 19:40 Arisen wrote:
People just aren't willing to listen...
IdrA says: Zerg have a hard time scouting early game because of building walls and denying overlord scouting. Because Zerg doesn't have a build that defends against everything early game without leaving your economy behind, if he denies scouting and you guessed wrong, you are at a disadvantage because with those same building walls, you don't have a lot of agression potential if you overcompensate.
People Hear: Zerg is underpowered, Terran and Protoss are ridiculously overpowered and zerg will never ever win anything.
People respond: Nuh - Uh, that's not what Day[9] said! You're just whining! What possible experience could you have in this arena!?
Guess what? IdrA puts in more time into this game than just about anyone not living in Korea. He is insanely good. He has some of the best mechanics in the world. Do you think he and just about every other zerg out there are losing as some sort of grand scheme to hit Terran and Protoss with the nerf bat and small buffs applied to zerg and suddenly bust out the "real" playstyle in 6 months cackling madly "hahaha, we were overpowered the whole time!"? No. He and just about every zerg is having problems in this arena. It's so easy to get into a disadvantaged spot early game. What top Zerg hasn't expressed that they think zerg is disadvantaged? I can't think of any.
Sure, IdrA is a lot more vocal, or at least a lot more accessible to teh foreigner community, so everyone hears him and he has a ton of anti fans because he's vocal. That's fine, you don't have to like someone just because they're good at starcraft, however, don't be a mindless sheep who blindly disagrees because he's talking about how (*gasp*) zerg feels vulnerable in the early game. Access what he's trying to say, because he's not saying it for the fuck of it, he's saying it because that's what goes on. People don't bother listening to him cause there's nuggets of truth in a sea of whine. He's not objective and to me he's one of the last people i'd want to hear discussing balance. Also people dislike him not cause he's vocal but cause he is very selfcentered, whiny and bad mannered. It's kinda like a politician that has a few good ideas but is overall a ranting overexaggerating loudmouth. Not many will listen to a guy like that even though some of the things he say might be true. Your overall atittude, objectivity and presentation of arguments is the base for a good discussion. To me and many others Idra doesn't have any of those qualities.
To simply put. Why should anyone listen to a guy who wins a finals playing Zerg and turns around and says Zerg is "unwinnable".
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On May 07 2011 19:51 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 19:40 Arisen wrote:
People just aren't willing to listen...
IdrA says: Zerg have a hard time scouting early game because of building walls and denying overlord scouting. Because Zerg doesn't have a build that defends against everything early game without leaving your economy behind, if he denies scouting and you guessed wrong, you are at a disadvantage because with those same building walls, you don't have a lot of agression potential if you overcompensate.
People Hear: Zerg is underpowered, Terran and Protoss are ridiculously overpowered and zerg will never ever win anything.
People respond: Nuh - Uh, that's not what Day[9] said! You're just whining! What possible experience could you have in this arena!?
Guess what? IdrA puts in more time into this game than just about anyone not living in Korea. He is insanely good. He has some of the best mechanics in the world. Do you think he and just about every other zerg out there are losing as some sort of grand scheme to hit Terran and Protoss with the nerf bat and small buffs applied to zerg and suddenly bust out the "real" playstyle in 6 months cackling madly "hahaha, we were overpowered the whole time!"? No. He and just about every zerg is having problems in this arena. It's so easy to get into a disadvantaged spot early game. What top Zerg hasn't expressed that they think zerg is disadvantaged? I can't think of any.
Sure, IdrA is a lot more vocal, or at least a lot more accessible to teh foreigner community, so everyone hears him and he has a ton of anti fans because he's vocal. That's fine, you don't have to like someone just because they're good at starcraft, however, don't be a mindless sheep who blindly disagrees because he's talking about how (*gasp*) zerg feels vulnerable in the early game. Access what he's trying to say, because he's not saying it for the fuck of it, he's saying it because that's what goes on. People don't bother listening to him cause there's nuggets of truth in a sea of whine. He's not objective and to me he's one of the last people i'd want to hear discussing balance. Also people dislike him not cause he's vocal but cause he is very selfcentered, whiny and bad mannered. It's kinda like a politician that has a few good ideas but is overall a ranting overexaggerating loudmouth. Not many will listen to a guy like that even though some of the things he say might be true. Your overall atittude, objectivity and presentation of arguments is the base for a good discussion. To me and many others Idra doesn't have any of those qualities.
Yep his attitude is the reason most people will immediatly discredit any arguments coming from him. He his incredibly biased and self-centered as you said, but at the same time he understand the game a lot more than most people. Everything he says should be taken with precaution but he undeniably has some strong and well-thought points, and has been consistent about them since the beta (the scouting issue).
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EPT
