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The shows are amazingly funny. Especially the little back and forth the players had
+ Show Spoiler +. Probably going to continue watching the show live from now on.
On a side not how can i make my own topic?
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On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot
Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners).
I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss.
People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable.
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In the whole imbalance discussion between Idra and Day9, it seems like no one understood the point Day9 was actually trying to make. Idra was trying to use specific examples of imbalance in theory and tried to flesh them out somewhat. It seems to me he's somewhat of a concrete thinker that way.
The point Day9 was making was a much larger and interesting one -- which is to say empirically no marked imbalance has yet been established (people can parse out win rates, but by and large every race can and does win at the highest level). The point that Idra and everyone else makes about SC2 being a young game cuts both ways -- the fact that the game is not yet figured out means that talking about "balance" is sort of silly when future strategies X Y and Z which blow whatever current strategies being used are still out there and yet to discover.
If and when empiric imbalance becomes evident (a marked inability for a given race to win over time), then it will possibly be more useful to listen to theorycrafting imbalance. Until then, I'm much more interested in how the races are actually doing as opposed to theoretical imbalances that may or may not have long-term significance as the game matures.
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On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable.
Idra is good but i've seen him throw away games like noone else. Haven't reen alot of Ret's games but his GSL run was aweful and his TSL games weren't that hot. Nada was one of the best BW ever and he's not doing that awesome in SC2 either.
I'm getting tired of the BW player entitlement, like their BW experience should somehow elevate them to a different plane of skill compared to everyone else.
I'll listen to Idra when he's not using exaggerations and hyperbole to further his arguments.
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Just as a disclaimer, I'm not necessarily commenting on the specific discussion between Day9 and Idra here, it's more about the way people are discussing how balance issues should be discussed.
I don't like the idea that the onus is on the "complainer" to provide some sort of empirical evidence of imbalance. That's hard, if not impossible, to prove, since there are so many complicating factors in a game like Starcraft, and it just feels like an easy way out of the discussion to say "well you can't PROVE it's imbalanced, therefore it isn't/shouldn't be discussed."
If the person arguing that there's an imbalance provides arguments (however opinionated) that demonstrate that there's an issue, it's not fair or productive to the discourse to just say "well you haven't proven that there's an issue!" It feels to me like a cop-out, because it's really easy to invalidate a well-reasoned argument with the available statistics, which are not only broad, but generally tend to be statistically insignificant.
For example, when Idra says that it's too hard to win as Zerg, and Geoff says that Idra's recent win in IPL invalidates his arguments, that's an over-generalization of the issue. Idra may have said that it's impossible to win as Zerg, but anyone who's listened to him talk for more than five minutes knows that he tends to exaggerate, and while Geoff is justified in calling him out for his melodrama, it doesn't necessarily make Greg wrong, since he could simply be outskilling his opponents or winning with cheese.
If you want to discuss balance in a constructive manner, you have to be prepared to actually address the points of the person you're debating against. You can't take some small part of what they said and blow it up, you can't use tournament results (because player skill is ultimately too big of a factor), you can't skirt the discussion entirely by saying the person you're talking about it with simply hasn't put the work in strategy-wise.
If, for example, someone said that zerg is weak because its units are generally cost-inefficient compared to Terran and Protoss, it's a much better response to give tangible reasons why Zerg units should be that way (how easy they are to mass, macro advantage of drone production) than to simply say "well that's just how it is, deal with it" or "can you prove it's an imbalance to my arbitrary standards."
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On May 07 2011 16:11 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable. Idra is good but i've seen him throw away games like noone else. Haven't reen alot of Ret's games but his GSL run was aweful and his TSL games weren't that hot. Nada was one of the best BW ever and he's not doing that awesome in SC2 either. I'm getting tired of the BW player entitlement, like their BW experience should somehow elevate them to a different plane of skill compared to everyone else. I'll listen to Idra when he's not using exaggerations and hyperbole to further his arguments.
Everyone plays bad sometime. I see MC play like shit ALL THE TIME, but everyone still says he's the best in the world. Regardless if BW; IdrA is one of if not the best Zerg in the foreigner scene, if not the world. He has some valid concerns; it behooves the community to listen and learn from him. Disregarding any information he has (from countless hours of playing some of the best players in the world) is just obtuse.
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On May 07 2011 16:25 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:11 karpo wrote:On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable. Idra is good but i've seen him throw away games like noone else. Haven't reen alot of Ret's games but his GSL run was aweful and his TSL games weren't that hot. Nada was one of the best BW ever and he's not doing that awesome in SC2 either. I'm getting tired of the BW player entitlement, like their BW experience should somehow elevate them to a different plane of skill compared to everyone else. I'll listen to Idra when he's not using exaggerations and hyperbole to further his arguments. Everyone plays bad sometime. I see MC play like shit ALL THE TIME, but everyone still says he's the best in the world. Regardless if BW; IdrA is one of if not the best Zerg in the foreigner scene, if not the world. He has some valid concerns; it behooves the community to listen and learn from him. Disregarding any information he has (from countless hours of playing some of the best players in the world) is just obtuse.
MC is a bad example, a lot of people have been saying for awhile that he plays far too risky and isn't what he is talked up to be
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On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable.
See, but Idra's viewpoint is very one sided. He perfectly paints the portrait for Zerg, but doesn't take into account that the other races suffer from the same lack of early game scouting. Both Terran and Protoss have to guess with limited intel about their opponent, in ALL matchups, just like Zerg. Sure, Terran can burn a scan but at the cost of roughly 300 minerals, which actually puts Terran significantly behind economically in a macro game. Sure, Protoss can whip out an observer, phoenix, or hallucination, but they have to make their first tech decision (which is HUGE for Protoss) before they know what their opponent is doing.
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On May 07 2011 16:47 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable. See, but Idra's viewpoint is very one sided. He perfectly paints the portrait for Zerg, but doesn't take into account that the other races suffer from the same lack of early game scouting. Both Terran and Protoss have to guess with limited intel about their opponent, in ALL matchups, just like Zerg. Sure, Terran can burn a scan but at the cost of roughly 300 minerals, which actually puts Terran significantly behind economically in a macro game. Sure, Protoss can whip out an observer, phoenix, or hallucination, but they have to make their first tech decision (which is HUGE for Protoss) before they know what their opponent is doing.
The ball is in the T or P's court early game - it's their position to apply pressure. Z options to do the same are extremely limited, hence Z's reactive nature. Expending 270 minerals or going robo at the expense of being safe is something that Z would love, because of the infinite things they may have to absorb in the first 10 minutes of the game.
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On May 07 2011 16:25 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:11 karpo wrote:On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable. Idra is good but i've seen him throw away games like noone else. Haven't reen alot of Ret's games but his GSL run was aweful and his TSL games weren't that hot. Nada was one of the best BW ever and he's not doing that awesome in SC2 either. I'm getting tired of the BW player entitlement, like their BW experience should somehow elevate them to a different plane of skill compared to everyone else. I'll listen to Idra when he's not using exaggerations and hyperbole to further his arguments. Everyone plays bad sometime. I see MC play like shit ALL THE TIME, but everyone still says he's the best in the world. Regardless if BW; IdrA is one of if not the best Zerg in the foreigner scene, if not the world. He has some valid concerns; it behooves the community to listen and learn from him. Disregarding any information he has (from countless hours of playing some of the best players in the world) is just obtuse.
Reason myself and others keep bringing up BW is simply the fact that Idra was not particulary good at that game yet never stopped crying about Protoss imbalance while players like Flash (might be unfair comparison seeing how Flash is Flash) kept a >70% win ratio over players Idra would barely be able to take a game of.
In SC2 however he's one of the best if not the best Zerg player and he's still crying about imbalance this and imbalance that.
So for people like myself who followed BW for quite some time it's almost frustrating to have people new to the community turn into a show like SotG, listen to Idra complain about balance and think "Hey this guy is the best Zerg in the world clearly he most have a point!".
No, Idra would complain about the balance of chess if he played it, that's simply how he functions.
Zerg is hurting right now whether it's due to a lack of strategy or inherent imbalance is up for debate but Idra is just not someone worth listening to on the matter (as entertaining as it may be).
And really thats the reason you hear the other guys at SotG keep poking fun at him like Incontrol's "Hey Idra what you think about Terran in BW?".
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idra should hire nestea as a coach to teach him how to blind counter!!!!!
and stop qq!!!!
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See, but Idra's viewpoint is very one sided. He perfectly paints the portrait for Zerg, but doesn't take into account that the other races suffer from the same lack of early game scouting. Both Terran and Protoss have to guess with limited intel about their opponent, in ALL matchups, just like Zerg. Sure, Terran can burn a scan but at the cost of roughly 300 minerals, which actually puts Terran significantly behind economically in a macro game. Sure, Protoss can whip out an observer, phoenix, or hallucination, but they have to make their first tech decision (which is HUGE for Protoss) before they know what their opponent is doing.
Terran and Protoss can play slightly blinder than Zerg. I'm not saying they don't have to scout, but being able to wall, and not having to make as tough of a decision between workers and units, makes a huge difference. Terran and Protoss players sometimes take for granted the whole worker/unit issue, not realizing that zerg doesn't want to have an army at all if it doesn't absolutely need it in the early game. It's a way bigger deal for Zerg to blindly make some units and feel "safe" than it is for Protoss or Terran, period, since those units could have been workers.
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On May 07 2011 17:04 Popss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:25 Arisen wrote:On May 07 2011 16:11 karpo wrote:On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable. Idra is good but i've seen him throw away games like noone else. Haven't reen alot of Ret's games but his GSL run was aweful and his TSL games weren't that hot. Nada was one of the best BW ever and he's not doing that awesome in SC2 either. I'm getting tired of the BW player entitlement, like their BW experience should somehow elevate them to a different plane of skill compared to everyone else. I'll listen to Idra when he's not using exaggerations and hyperbole to further his arguments. Everyone plays bad sometime. I see MC play like shit ALL THE TIME, but everyone still says he's the best in the world. Regardless if BW; IdrA is one of if not the best Zerg in the foreigner scene, if not the world. He has some valid concerns; it behooves the community to listen and learn from him. Disregarding any information he has (from countless hours of playing some of the best players in the world) is just obtuse. Reason myself and others keep bringing up BW is simply the fact that Idra was not particulary good at that game yet never stopped crying about Protoss imbalance while players like Flash (might be unfair comparison seeing how Flash is Flash) kept a >70% win ratio over players Idra would barely be able to take a game of. In SC2 however he's one of the best if not the best Zerg player and he's still crying about imbalance this and imbalance that. So for people like myself who followed BW for quite some time it's almost frustrating to have people new to the community turn into a show like SotG, listen to Idra complain about balance and think "Hey this guy is the best Zerg in the world clearly he most have a point!". No, Idra would complain about the balance of chess if he played it, that's simply how he functions. Zerg is hurting right now whether it's due to a lack of strategy or inherent imbalance is up for debate but Idra is just not someone worth listening to on the matter (as entertaining as it may be). And really thats the reason you hear the other guys at SotG keep poking fun at him like Incontrol's "Hey Idra what you think about Terran in BW?".
And that ladies and gentlemen, is how you create a strawman. Ignore IdrA's comments and ideas regarding sc2 and instead focus on past comments about BW(which, by the way, you're largely misconstruing).
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On May 07 2011 17:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:04 Popss wrote:On May 07 2011 16:25 Arisen wrote:On May 07 2011 16:11 karpo wrote:On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable. Idra is good but i've seen him throw away games like noone else. Haven't reen alot of Ret's games but his GSL run was aweful and his TSL games weren't that hot. Nada was one of the best BW ever and he's not doing that awesome in SC2 either. I'm getting tired of the BW player entitlement, like their BW experience should somehow elevate them to a different plane of skill compared to everyone else. I'll listen to Idra when he's not using exaggerations and hyperbole to further his arguments. Everyone plays bad sometime. I see MC play like shit ALL THE TIME, but everyone still says he's the best in the world. Regardless if BW; IdrA is one of if not the best Zerg in the foreigner scene, if not the world. He has some valid concerns; it behooves the community to listen and learn from him. Disregarding any information he has (from countless hours of playing some of the best players in the world) is just obtuse. Reason myself and others keep bringing up BW is simply the fact that Idra was not particulary good at that game yet never stopped crying about Protoss imbalance while players like Flash (might be unfair comparison seeing how Flash is Flash) kept a >70% win ratio over players Idra would barely be able to take a game of. In SC2 however he's one of the best if not the best Zerg player and he's still crying about imbalance this and imbalance that. So for people like myself who followed BW for quite some time it's almost frustrating to have people new to the community turn into a show like SotG, listen to Idra complain about balance and think "Hey this guy is the best Zerg in the world clearly he most have a point!". No, Idra would complain about the balance of chess if he played it, that's simply how he functions. Zerg is hurting right now whether it's due to a lack of strategy or inherent imbalance is up for debate but Idra is just not someone worth listening to on the matter (as entertaining as it may be). And really thats the reason you hear the other guys at SotG keep poking fun at him like Incontrol's "Hey Idra what you think about Terran in BW?". And that ladies and gentlemen, is how you create a strawman. Ignore IdrA's comments and ideas regarding sc2 and instead focus on past comments about BW(which, by the way, you're largely misconstruing).
Those comments says alot about the kind of person you're listening to.
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On May 07 2011 17:30 Popss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On May 07 2011 17:04 Popss wrote:On May 07 2011 16:25 Arisen wrote:On May 07 2011 16:11 karpo wrote:On May 07 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:On May 06 2011 05:58 epik640x wrote:
You, sir, have fallen for the Idra line hook, line, and sinker. Just because Idra plays zerg and Idra says Ret is a god among men does not mean that the "most skilled players from BW play zerg". This is what Idra says to bolster his case, because he lies a lot Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners). I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss. People are far too quick to write off any complaint IdrA has about imbalance because he's not the most likable fellow, but as a top professional player, you should at least listen to what he has to say and not scoff it away as "whining". Zerg quite objectively at this point in time have a lot of trouble with early game scenarios because of scouting and the huge verity of early aggression techniques from both Protoss and Terran, and as a result, often fall behind because they either overcompensate or under compensate. Think of the 6 rax marine all in that recently became popular. A Terran walls himself in, denies overlord scouting, and just creates a shit ton of marines and ships out. Think of what the zerg sees. 1 rax, no gas. This could be an early expand, certainly. If it is, and a zerg player doesn't drone REALLY hard, he's going to fall way behind economically. If it's this marine push, and he didn't guess correctly, he's probably going to lose. Same with 2 rax. At any given point the Terran can just decide he's going to pull all his SCV's and attack, and if you weren't prepared for that, you'll lose. If you do prepare for that and the Terran pokes in adn sees something he doesn't like and pulls back, you just wasted a ton of resources and the terran is in a fine position. Regardless of the player's actual talent, it's easy to become disadvantaged in the early game as zerg, which is very frustrating for players like Ret and IdrA who are very good at this game, that they could fall behind while making a correct decision. Sure, in the future, it's very possible that a solution may come up, but IdrA's viewpoint is, for now at least, completely reasonable. Idra is good but i've seen him throw away games like noone else. Haven't reen alot of Ret's games but his GSL run was aweful and his TSL games weren't that hot. Nada was one of the best BW ever and he's not doing that awesome in SC2 either. I'm getting tired of the BW player entitlement, like their BW experience should somehow elevate them to a different plane of skill compared to everyone else. I'll listen to Idra when he's not using exaggerations and hyperbole to further his arguments. Everyone plays bad sometime. I see MC play like shit ALL THE TIME, but everyone still says he's the best in the world. Regardless if BW; IdrA is one of if not the best Zerg in the foreigner scene, if not the world. He has some valid concerns; it behooves the community to listen and learn from him. Disregarding any information he has (from countless hours of playing some of the best players in the world) is just obtuse. Reason myself and others keep bringing up BW is simply the fact that Idra was not particulary good at that game yet never stopped crying about Protoss imbalance while players like Flash (might be unfair comparison seeing how Flash is Flash) kept a >70% win ratio over players Idra would barely be able to take a game of. In SC2 however he's one of the best if not the best Zerg player and he's still crying about imbalance this and imbalance that. So for people like myself who followed BW for quite some time it's almost frustrating to have people new to the community turn into a show like SotG, listen to Idra complain about balance and think "Hey this guy is the best Zerg in the world clearly he most have a point!". No, Idra would complain about the balance of chess if he played it, that's simply how he functions. Zerg is hurting right now whether it's due to a lack of strategy or inherent imbalance is up for debate but Idra is just not someone worth listening to on the matter (as entertaining as it may be). And really thats the reason you hear the other guys at SotG keep poking fun at him like Incontrol's "Hey Idra what you think about Terran in BW?". And that ladies and gentlemen, is how you create a strawman. Ignore IdrA's comments and ideas regarding sc2 and instead focus on past comments about BW(which, by the way, you're largely misconstruing). Those comments says alot about the kind of person you're listening to.
The comments you're taking out of context and also misinterpreting. IdrA had complained about Terran in the past in BW, yes, but it was primarily about the ease at which protoss could abuse Terran. That was his primary complaint. His other main statement, which is true by the way, is that terran was the hardest race to play.
While at times he obviously worded poorly and would complain in a less than interesting manner, none of that changes the argument you just tried to put forward. Regardless of how well thought out or with merit IdrA's comments are, you will ignore them flat out because it's IdrA making them.
Good way to enter a discussion.
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Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners).
I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss.
Hate to break it to you, but there are a ton of Koreans who were just as good if not better than Ret/Idra who are mediocre and/or had little success with this game, regardless of the race
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The real problem is that Day9 just assumes there's solutions to every problem, and Idra is well established to being an absolute master at thinking inside the box.
Day9 says, Idra, think outside the box!
Idra says, I cant, the box is imbalanced.
I think Day9 did a good job at conveying his open-minded philosophy but Idra had a very solid points founded in his firsthand knowledge of the competitive scene. Day9 refused to talk about specific examples because he has no real answers - only a whimsical attitude that the answer will reveal itself to zerg seers one day soon and that clearly the pros aren't trying enough different things.
We don't need to talk about the actual balance issues, we just need to accept that both of these people are thickheaded and stubborn and probably won't change their opinions anytime soon. Idra will always be fire, Day9 will always be water.
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On May 07 2011 17:35 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners).
I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss.
Hate to break it to you, but there are a ton of Koreans who were just as good if not better than Ret/Idra now doing sub-par/terrible with this game, regardless of the race
That's because they practiced like hell their mechanics while it's not so important in SC2. Doesn't mean players such as ret or idra developped different skills to compete in SC1, skills that helped them more in SC2.
Well ret is not doing that good.
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On May 07 2011 17:40 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:35 Dommk wrote:Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners).
I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss.
Hate to break it to you, but there are a ton of Koreans who were just as good if not better than Ret/Idra now doing sub-par/terrible with this game, regardless of the race That's because they practice like hell their mechanics while it's not so important in SC2. Doesn't mean players such as ret or idra developped different skills to compete in SC1, skills that helped them more in SC2. Well ret is not doing that good.
Rets strengths in SC1 were his mechanics, same with IdrA. That wasn't the end all be all of their playstyle though, just like the other Koreans who have failed to do well in this game despite being just as good if not better than some of the top players now during SC1.
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On May 07 2011 17:41 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 17:40 WhiteDog wrote:On May 07 2011 17:35 Dommk wrote:Well, considering he and Ret were the only players who could compete in Korea at the time because they were way above foreign competion, i'd say he didn't lie at all. Sure, there was the odd man out who was really fucking good in the foreigner scene (NonY, Mondragon, SEn, etc), but there was a reason why Ret and IdrA played in Korea; they were the best (largely speaking, NonY could have played in Korea, as well as a few other foreigners).
I see some zergs who are phenomenal lose to players who are just objectively worse players. That isn't to say that doesn't happen in other matchups, or even in Brood War, but it happens a lot to zergs in SCII. Sure, it could be that a way to completely trounce what they're having problems with now might be solved tommorow, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of zergs are having problems with both Terran and Protoss.
Hate to break it to you, but there are a ton of Koreans who were just as good if not better than Ret/Idra now doing sub-par/terrible with this game, regardless of the race That's because they practice like hell their mechanics while it's not so important in SC2. Doesn't mean players such as ret or idra developped different skills to compete in SC1, skills that helped them more in SC2. Well ret is not doing that good. Rets strengths in SC1 were his mechanics
IdrA too if you compare him to the foreigner scene. But if you compare them to other koreans, their strenght were still mechanics ?
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