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holy batman this thread is a clusterfuck mess
ridiculous arguments and name calling abound ... what's worse is that people so readily jump aboard the flame-bait-wagon
i'll just look it up on my own
thanks guys
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On May 07 2011 07:58 Grantiere wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:47 cheesemaster wrote:On May 07 2011 07:41 Grantiere wrote:On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated. This is idiotic. Aside from the fact that America has a large portion of the most prestigious private and public institutions of higher learning in the world, Day9 has an undergraduate degree in math from a very good college (Harvey Mudd), Tyler's degree is in philosophy? from Duke, and Idra's field of study in college would have been theoretical physics. These are all very clearly intelligent people. If I remember correctly, Idra has 0 years of higher education. Day9 should have 6. I would venture to say that there is literally no degree you can obtain at the undergraduate level anywhere in the world that is clearly more impressive than Day9's. Well idra didnt even start college. He left to play starcraft when he was 17 honestly Im not saying idra's stupid but thats just him saying he would have studied theoretical physics. As of now he has no post secondary education and i wouldnt put him on a pedestal just because he says thats what he would study, hes just the same as any other person without a post secondary education. Hes ill mannered, has very one sided oppinions, is very close minded I honestly dont think he would be very succesful outside of the starcraft world with the attitude he has. You'd be surprised. The world is full of very successful intelligent cynics, especially ones willing to work hard. I think Idra is all of these things. I'm skeptical that he'll ever be a creator, but as a refiner, he strikes me as likely being successful in all kinds of roles or areas. As to his maturity, that's basically a function of age.
Agreed. Idra offers a needed voice and a needed point of view. He not only has talent, but also the confidence and independent thinking to make him not only a great player, but a great critic of the game. I don't agree with him, but his voice needs to be heard. As he matures, he'll learn to express his views in a more diplomatic, and more effective manner.
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On May 07 2011 07:57 Sakarabu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 07:03 slyboogie wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents into the discussion. I think the Day[9]/Idra discourse is nothing unique to Starcraft 2. We see that type of dichotomy in dozens of places. It's the economist and the historian, it's the athlete and the sportswriter, it's the politician and the philosopher.
Day[9] talks about Starcraft 2 as a grand mystery, with hundreds of questions to be asked and thousands of hours to be committed. The concept of "balance" exists in the puzzle, but to Day[9], it is the players' search for balance that creates competitive Starcraft. The narrative is interrupted every time Blizzard involves itself - no revolution will occur, no genius to praise. In fact, I think that Day[9] is actually disappointed in Idra's venting/complaining/whining/balance talk (whatever you call it.) He wants Idra to commit himself to the confines of the game and create a way to win. Even if he loses, his struggle would be a nice story.
Idra, on the other hand, has no patience for the romantic idealism of emergent gameplay, of hundreds of fruitless hours looking for some Shangri-la of user created balance. No, he's a competitor and Starcraft 2 is his livelihood. In his eyes, his (non-Zerg) opponents have aluminum bats and he is left to swing away with a two-by-four. He doesn't really care about the valiant struggle of Zerg, he doesn't want to NEED to create brilliance - he already plays as well as anyone. Balance now, legacy later.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Sorry for the broad tone.
No. Nicely written, and you did manage to fool some people here but.. Here's where Idras (and your) whole argument falls apart; If he really believed what he was saying and didn't just want some scapegoat for being bad in a specific game, or some reason to get attention, then guess what? HE IS FREE TO CHANGE HIS RACEThat is the difference in SC2 compared to the other situations you mentioned. If it really came down to brass tacks and like you said it was"his livelihood" at stake, don't you think he would have changed race by now after whining for so long? That means either: 1) He thinks Zerg give him the best chance of winning.In which case fuck him and his whining, it's becoming a joke and as witnessed on SotG people just laugh at him cause they know he is full of shit. I mean seriously? How can people even take him seriously when he says absurd shit like "We are supposed to win, we've been in Korea for 3 years". He sounded like a spoilt brat who thinks he should get wins on a silver platter for playing a completely different game for afew years in Korea. 2)He also shares Day9's view, and thinks there is some puzzle to be solved.In which case he should keep his arrogant mouth shut and let people play the game instead of acting like the spoilt whining child constantly. Going off historical evidence there is no reason that day9's point of view isn't valid. Hey, it worked for another little game called Starcraft: Broodwar. Idras point of view on the otherhand holds no worth at all, he whined about his race (Terran) in BW when the majority of people thought it was probably the strongest in top level play (paraphrasing from what Incontrol said). And now he is whining in SC2 when Zerg are probably the strongest race right now. TL;DR Idra should stfu sometimes and focus on improving his gameplay instead of assuming he is already perfect and it's the game that is broken.
or #3: he has faith that blizzard will patch the game, and realizes that to change his race would be to set him back a loooooooong time in terms of experience with SC2.
just because some pieces landed nicely in brood war doesn't mean every game is made balanced. brood war is the exception, not the rule.
also when you put everything on the line to live in korea then spend 12 hours a day practicing a game, you can call him spoiled. until that happens you should probably keep it to yourself.
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On May 07 2011 08:00 ChickenLips wrote:
holy batman this thread is a clusterfuck mess
ridiculous arguments and name calling abound ... what's worse is that people so readily jump aboard the flame-bait-wagon
Hahah isn't it great! I have lots of fun participating in threads like this :p. Thanks for the discussion everyone!
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On May 07 2011 08:03 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:57 Sakarabu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 07:03 slyboogie wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents into the discussion. I think the Day[9]/Idra discourse is nothing unique to Starcraft 2. We see that type of dichotomy in dozens of places. It's the economist and the historian, it's the athlete and the sportswriter, it's the politician and the philosopher.
Day[9] talks about Starcraft 2 as a grand mystery, with hundreds of questions to be asked and thousands of hours to be committed. The concept of "balance" exists in the puzzle, but to Day[9], it is the players' search for balance that creates competitive Starcraft. The narrative is interrupted every time Blizzard involves itself - no revolution will occur, no genius to praise. In fact, I think that Day[9] is actually disappointed in Idra's venting/complaining/whining/balance talk (whatever you call it.) He wants Idra to commit himself to the confines of the game and create a way to win. Even if he loses, his struggle would be a nice story.
Idra, on the other hand, has no patience for the romantic idealism of emergent gameplay, of hundreds of fruitless hours looking for some Shangri-la of user created balance. No, he's a competitor and Starcraft 2 is his livelihood. In his eyes, his (non-Zerg) opponents have aluminum bats and he is left to swing away with a two-by-four. He doesn't really care about the valiant struggle of Zerg, he doesn't want to NEED to create brilliance - he already plays as well as anyone. Balance now, legacy later.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Sorry for the broad tone.
No. Nicely written, and you did manage to fool some people here but.. Here's where Idras (and your) whole argument falls apart; If he really believed what he was saying and didn't just want some scapegoat for being bad in a specific game, or some reason to get attention, then guess what? HE IS FREE TO CHANGE HIS RACEThat is the difference in SC2 compared to the other situations you mentioned. If it really came down to brass tacks and like you said it was"his livelihood" at stake, don't you think he would have changed race by now after whining for so long? That means either: 1) He thinks Zerg give him the best chance of winning.In which case fuck him and his whining, it's becoming a joke and as witnessed on SotG people just laugh at him cause they know he is full of shit. I mean seriously? How can people even take him seriously when he says absurd shit like "We are supposed to win, we've been in Korea for 3 years". He sounded like a spoilt brat who thinks he should get wins on a silver platter for playing a completely different game for afew years in Korea. 2)He also shares Day9's view, and thinks there is some puzzle to be solved.In which case he should keep his arrogant mouth shut and let people play the game instead of acting like the spoilt whining child constantly. Going off historical evidence there is no reason that day9's point of view isn't valid. Hey, it worked for another little game called Starcraft: Broodwar. Idras point of view on the otherhand holds no worth at all, he whined about his race (Terran) in BW when the majority of people thought it was probably the strongest in top level play (paraphrasing from what Incontrol said). And now he is whining in SC2 when Zerg are probably the strongest race right now. TL;DR Idra should stfu sometimes and focus on improving his gameplay instead of assuming he is already perfect and it's the game that is broken. or #3: he has faith that blizzard will patch the game, and realizes that to change his race would be to set him back a loooooooong time in terms of experience with SC2. just because some pieces landed nicely in brood war doesn't mean every game is made balanced. brood war is the exception, not the rule.
That would be true if it weren't for the fact that:
1) Changing race would only set him back a month at most. Morrow changed easily from Terran to Zerg in a month or so, and if what Idra says about Zerg being underpowered is true, it should be REALLY easy to switch from Z to another race.
2) He has already mentioned countless times that he doesn't have any faith in Blizzard to balance the game. In which case why would he wait for such a thing? It completely contradicts that point.
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On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated.
nice baseless, worthless generalization about american degrees. also, should i assume all french people don't know what education means, because you clearly don't? this thread is such shit.
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On May 07 2011 08:07 Sakarabu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:03 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 07 2011 07:57 Sakarabu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 07:03 slyboogie wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents into the discussion. I think the Day[9]/Idra discourse is nothing unique to Starcraft 2. We see that type of dichotomy in dozens of places. It's the economist and the historian, it's the athlete and the sportswriter, it's the politician and the philosopher.
Day[9] talks about Starcraft 2 as a grand mystery, with hundreds of questions to be asked and thousands of hours to be committed. The concept of "balance" exists in the puzzle, but to Day[9], it is the players' search for balance that creates competitive Starcraft. The narrative is interrupted every time Blizzard involves itself - no revolution will occur, no genius to praise. In fact, I think that Day[9] is actually disappointed in Idra's venting/complaining/whining/balance talk (whatever you call it.) He wants Idra to commit himself to the confines of the game and create a way to win. Even if he loses, his struggle would be a nice story.
Idra, on the other hand, has no patience for the romantic idealism of emergent gameplay, of hundreds of fruitless hours looking for some Shangri-la of user created balance. No, he's a competitor and Starcraft 2 is his livelihood. In his eyes, his (non-Zerg) opponents have aluminum bats and he is left to swing away with a two-by-four. He doesn't really care about the valiant struggle of Zerg, he doesn't want to NEED to create brilliance - he already plays as well as anyone. Balance now, legacy later.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Sorry for the broad tone.
No. Nicely written, and you did manage to fool some people here but.. Here's where Idras (and your) whole argument falls apart; If he really believed what he was saying and didn't just want some scapegoat for being bad in a specific game, or some reason to get attention, then guess what? HE IS FREE TO CHANGE HIS RACEThat is the difference in SC2 compared to the other situations you mentioned. If it really came down to brass tacks and like you said it was"his livelihood" at stake, don't you think he would have changed race by now after whining for so long? That means either: 1) He thinks Zerg give him the best chance of winning.In which case fuck him and his whining, it's becoming a joke and as witnessed on SotG people just laugh at him cause they know he is full of shit. I mean seriously? How can people even take him seriously when he says absurd shit like "We are supposed to win, we've been in Korea for 3 years". He sounded like a spoilt brat who thinks he should get wins on a silver platter for playing a completely different game for afew years in Korea. 2)He also shares Day9's view, and thinks there is some puzzle to be solved.In which case he should keep his arrogant mouth shut and let people play the game instead of acting like the spoilt whining child constantly. Going off historical evidence there is no reason that day9's point of view isn't valid. Hey, it worked for another little game called Starcraft: Broodwar. Idras point of view on the otherhand holds no worth at all, he whined about his race (Terran) in BW when the majority of people thought it was probably the strongest in top level play (paraphrasing from what Incontrol said). And now he is whining in SC2 when Zerg are probably the strongest race right now. TL;DR Idra should stfu sometimes and focus on improving his gameplay instead of assuming he is already perfect and it's the game that is broken. or #3: he has faith that blizzard will patch the game, and realizes that to change his race would be to set him back a loooooooong time in terms of experience with SC2. just because some pieces landed nicely in brood war doesn't mean every game is made balanced. brood war is the exception, not the rule. That would be true if it weren't for the fact that: 1) Changing race would only set him back a month at most. Morrow changed easily from Terran to Zerg in a month or so, and if what Idra says about Zerg being underpowered is true, it should be REALLY easy to switch from Z to another race. 2) He hadn't already mentioned countless times that he doesn't have any faith in Blizzard to balance the game. In which case why would he wait for such a thing? It completely contradicts that point.
he's also said countless times that the reason he isnt switching is because he thinks blizzard WILL balance the game, and because he feels it would set him back too much. it took much more than a month for morrow to start doing decently with zerg, and he still hasn't had a big win.
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On May 07 2011 08:07 Sakarabu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:03 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 07 2011 07:57 Sakarabu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 07:03 slyboogie wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents into the discussion. I think the Day[9]/Idra discourse is nothing unique to Starcraft 2. We see that type of dichotomy in dozens of places. It's the economist and the historian, it's the athlete and the sportswriter, it's the politician and the philosopher.
Day[9] talks about Starcraft 2 as a grand mystery, with hundreds of questions to be asked and thousands of hours to be committed. The concept of "balance" exists in the puzzle, but to Day[9], it is the players' search for balance that creates competitive Starcraft. The narrative is interrupted every time Blizzard involves itself - no revolution will occur, no genius to praise. In fact, I think that Day[9] is actually disappointed in Idra's venting/complaining/whining/balance talk (whatever you call it.) He wants Idra to commit himself to the confines of the game and create a way to win. Even if he loses, his struggle would be a nice story.
Idra, on the other hand, has no patience for the romantic idealism of emergent gameplay, of hundreds of fruitless hours looking for some Shangri-la of user created balance. No, he's a competitor and Starcraft 2 is his livelihood. In his eyes, his (non-Zerg) opponents have aluminum bats and he is left to swing away with a two-by-four. He doesn't really care about the valiant struggle of Zerg, he doesn't want to NEED to create brilliance - he already plays as well as anyone. Balance now, legacy later.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Sorry for the broad tone.
No. Nicely written, and you did manage to fool some people here but.. Here's where Idras (and your) whole argument falls apart; If he really believed what he was saying and didn't just want some scapegoat for being bad in a specific game, or some reason to get attention, then guess what? HE IS FREE TO CHANGE HIS RACEThat is the difference in SC2 compared to the other situations you mentioned. If it really came down to brass tacks and like you said it was"his livelihood" at stake, don't you think he would have changed race by now after whining for so long? That means either: 1) He thinks Zerg give him the best chance of winning.In which case fuck him and his whining, it's becoming a joke and as witnessed on SotG people just laugh at him cause they know he is full of shit. I mean seriously? How can people even take him seriously when he says absurd shit like "We are supposed to win, we've been in Korea for 3 years". He sounded like a spoilt brat who thinks he should get wins on a silver platter for playing a completely different game for afew years in Korea. 2)He also shares Day9's view, and thinks there is some puzzle to be solved.In which case he should keep his arrogant mouth shut and let people play the game instead of acting like the spoilt whining child constantly. Going off historical evidence there is no reason that day9's point of view isn't valid. Hey, it worked for another little game called Starcraft: Broodwar. Idras point of view on the otherhand holds no worth at all, he whined about his race (Terran) in BW when the majority of people thought it was probably the strongest in top level play (paraphrasing from what Incontrol said). And now he is whining in SC2 when Zerg are probably the strongest race right now. TL;DR Idra should stfu sometimes and focus on improving his gameplay instead of assuming he is already perfect and it's the game that is broken. or #3: he has faith that blizzard will patch the game, and realizes that to change his race would be to set him back a loooooooong time in terms of experience with SC2. just because some pieces landed nicely in brood war doesn't mean every game is made balanced. brood war is the exception, not the rule. That would be true if it weren't for the fact that: 1) Changing race would only set him back a month at most. Morrow changed easily from Terran to Zerg in a month or so, and if what Idra says about Zerg being underpowered is true, it should be REALLY easy to switch from Z to another race. 2) He has already mentioned countless times that he doesn't have any faith in Blizzard to balance the game. In which case why would he wait for such a thing? It completely contradicts that point.
Morrow has been playing Zerg for longer than he played Terran now (I think) and when he made the switch the game was a lot less developed so switching was a lot easier.
I´m not taking sides in this discussion since I dont really see a point in it, just want to make sure that people dont make invalid points.
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On May 07 2011 08:03 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:57 Sakarabu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 07:03 slyboogie wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents into the discussion. I think the Day[9]/Idra discourse is nothing unique to Starcraft 2. We see that type of dichotomy in dozens of places. It's the economist and the historian, it's the athlete and the sportswriter, it's the politician and the philosopher.
Day[9] talks about Starcraft 2 as a grand mystery, with hundreds of questions to be asked and thousands of hours to be committed. The concept of "balance" exists in the puzzle, but to Day[9], it is the players' search for balance that creates competitive Starcraft. The narrative is interrupted every time Blizzard involves itself - no revolution will occur, no genius to praise. In fact, I think that Day[9] is actually disappointed in Idra's venting/complaining/whining/balance talk (whatever you call it.) He wants Idra to commit himself to the confines of the game and create a way to win. Even if he loses, his struggle would be a nice story.
Idra, on the other hand, has no patience for the romantic idealism of emergent gameplay, of hundreds of fruitless hours looking for some Shangri-la of user created balance. No, he's a competitor and Starcraft 2 is his livelihood. In his eyes, his (non-Zerg) opponents have aluminum bats and he is left to swing away with a two-by-four. He doesn't really care about the valiant struggle of Zerg, he doesn't want to NEED to create brilliance - he already plays as well as anyone. Balance now, legacy later.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Sorry for the broad tone.
No. Nicely written, and you did manage to fool some people here but.. Here's where Idras (and your) whole argument falls apart; If he really believed what he was saying and didn't just want some scapegoat for being bad in a specific game, or some reason to get attention, then guess what? HE IS FREE TO CHANGE HIS RACEThat is the difference in SC2 compared to the other situations you mentioned. If it really came down to brass tacks and like you said it was"his livelihood" at stake, don't you think he would have changed race by now after whining for so long? That means either: 1) He thinks Zerg give him the best chance of winning.In which case fuck him and his whining, it's becoming a joke and as witnessed on SotG people just laugh at him cause they know he is full of shit. I mean seriously? How can people even take him seriously when he says absurd shit like "We are supposed to win, we've been in Korea for 3 years". He sounded like a spoilt brat who thinks he should get wins on a silver platter for playing a completely different game for afew years in Korea. 2)He also shares Day9's view, and thinks there is some puzzle to be solved.In which case he should keep his arrogant mouth shut and let people play the game instead of acting like the spoilt whining child constantly. Going off historical evidence there is no reason that day9's point of view isn't valid. Hey, it worked for another little game called Starcraft: Broodwar. Idras point of view on the otherhand holds no worth at all, he whined about his race (Terran) in BW when the majority of people thought it was probably the strongest in top level play (paraphrasing from what Incontrol said). And now he is whining in SC2 when Zerg are probably the strongest race right now. TL;DR Idra should stfu sometimes and focus on improving his gameplay instead of assuming he is already perfect and it's the game that is broken. or #3: he has faith that blizzard will patch the game, and realizes that to change his race would be to set him back a loooooooong time in terms of experience with SC2. just because some pieces landed nicely in brood war doesn't mean every game is made balanced. brood war is the exception, not the rule.
Brood War was not made balanced, it took 3 massive balance patches in order to do so, and even then, Idra himself openly stated that there were imbalances in the game..
Overall, it's early enough in the game's life that balance patches are acceptable, if they're still occurring 6-12 months from now, something is wrong, but that doesn't mean that any race is currently violently underpowered. If anything, slight tweaks might make a few unfortunate circumstances occur less often for them, but that's about it.
If Zerg was truly so underpowered, it wouldn't matter who played them, they would unanimously finish poorly: this is not the case. Currently in the top-10 players of the NASL, 6 of them are Zerg. This coincides directly with what day9 said: right now, there is no evidence to substantiate that zerg is underpowered, too many zerg's are performing just as good or better than other races for this to be true.
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On May 07 2011 08:14 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:03 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 07 2011 07:57 Sakarabu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 07:03 slyboogie wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents into the discussion. I think the Day[9]/Idra discourse is nothing unique to Starcraft 2. We see that type of dichotomy in dozens of places. It's the economist and the historian, it's the athlete and the sportswriter, it's the politician and the philosopher.
Day[9] talks about Starcraft 2 as a grand mystery, with hundreds of questions to be asked and thousands of hours to be committed. The concept of "balance" exists in the puzzle, but to Day[9], it is the players' search for balance that creates competitive Starcraft. The narrative is interrupted every time Blizzard involves itself - no revolution will occur, no genius to praise. In fact, I think that Day[9] is actually disappointed in Idra's venting/complaining/whining/balance talk (whatever you call it.) He wants Idra to commit himself to the confines of the game and create a way to win. Even if he loses, his struggle would be a nice story.
Idra, on the other hand, has no patience for the romantic idealism of emergent gameplay, of hundreds of fruitless hours looking for some Shangri-la of user created balance. No, he's a competitor and Starcraft 2 is his livelihood. In his eyes, his (non-Zerg) opponents have aluminum bats and he is left to swing away with a two-by-four. He doesn't really care about the valiant struggle of Zerg, he doesn't want to NEED to create brilliance - he already plays as well as anyone. Balance now, legacy later.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Sorry for the broad tone.
No. Nicely written, and you did manage to fool some people here but.. Here's where Idras (and your) whole argument falls apart; If he really believed what he was saying and didn't just want some scapegoat for being bad in a specific game, or some reason to get attention, then guess what? HE IS FREE TO CHANGE HIS RACEThat is the difference in SC2 compared to the other situations you mentioned. If it really came down to brass tacks and like you said it was"his livelihood" at stake, don't you think he would have changed race by now after whining for so long? That means either: 1) He thinks Zerg give him the best chance of winning.In which case fuck him and his whining, it's becoming a joke and as witnessed on SotG people just laugh at him cause they know he is full of shit. I mean seriously? How can people even take him seriously when he says absurd shit like "We are supposed to win, we've been in Korea for 3 years". He sounded like a spoilt brat who thinks he should get wins on a silver platter for playing a completely different game for afew years in Korea. 2)He also shares Day9's view, and thinks there is some puzzle to be solved.In which case he should keep his arrogant mouth shut and let people play the game instead of acting like the spoilt whining child constantly. Going off historical evidence there is no reason that day9's point of view isn't valid. Hey, it worked for another little game called Starcraft: Broodwar. Idras point of view on the otherhand holds no worth at all, he whined about his race (Terran) in BW when the majority of people thought it was probably the strongest in top level play (paraphrasing from what Incontrol said). And now he is whining in SC2 when Zerg are probably the strongest race right now. TL;DR Idra should stfu sometimes and focus on improving his gameplay instead of assuming he is already perfect and it's the game that is broken. or #3: he has faith that blizzard will patch the game, and realizes that to change his race would be to set him back a loooooooong time in terms of experience with SC2. just because some pieces landed nicely in brood war doesn't mean every game is made balanced. brood war is the exception, not the rule. Brood War was not made balanced, it took 3 massive balance patches in order to do so, and even then, Idra himself openly stated that there were imbalances in the game.. Overall, it's early enough in the game's life that balance patches are acceptable, if they're still occurring 6-12 months from now, something is wrong, but that doesn't mean that any race is currently violently underpowered. If anything, slight tweaks might make a few unfortunate circumstances occur less often for them, but that's about it. If Zerg was truly so underpowered, it wouldn't matter who played them, they would unanimously finish poorly: this is not the case. Currently in the top-10 players of the NASL, 6 of them are Zerg. This coincides directly with what day9 said: right now, there is no evidence to substantiate that zerg is underpowered, too many zerg's are performing just as good or better than other races for this to be true.
I'm not much for the balance discussion (anymore), I think the game is getting pretty darn close to balanced. I just don't like it when people trash IdrA.
EDIT I also don't like it when people make logical leaps such as "Brood War turned out balanced in the end. Therefore SC2 is balanced a year after release!"
However, as was discussed on the most recent episode, the state of the game is also getting pretty darn coin-toss-ey, and while that's not necessarily imbalanced, most people would agree that it makes for shitty gameplay.
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Brood War was not made balanced, it took 3 massive balance patches in order to do so, and even then, Idra himself openly stated that there were imbalances in the game..
He has no idea what he is talking about if he says there are imbalances in BW, this is a game played professionally where they have had years of statistical data to show that it is not. The point is exactly that: There may be imbalances in strategies, but they are superficial. They change in one month or three, and then there's another race dominating for some period.
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On May 07 2011 07:53 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated. Maybe American degrees have a poor reputation in Europe. Doesn't everything American have a poor reputation in Europe? Can't say the same for the rest of the world. I know for a fact that my mediocre American degrees are looked upon by Asians as better than the best degrees you can get in all of Asia.
That guy is wrong. US universities do not have a poor reputation.
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On May 07 2011 08:20 Dystisis wrote:Show nested quote +Brood War was not made balanced, it took 3 massive balance patches in order to do so, and even then, Idra himself openly stated that there were imbalances in the game..
He has no idea what he is talking about if he says there are imbalances in BW, this is a game played professionally where they have had years of statistical data to show that it is not. The point is exactly that: There may be imbalances in strategies, but they are superficial. They change in one month or three, and then there's another race dominating for some period.
the data proves that bw was at times imbalanced, its the maps as much as the meta game that changed that.
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On May 07 2011 07:31 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 07 2011 07:15 randplaty wrote:On May 07 2011 06:49 genopath wrote:SC:L has provided a small edited transcript between Day[9] and IdrA from the latest SOTG podcast. http://sclegacy.com/editorials/105-strategy/1005-sotg-idra-vs-day9Edit: The reason for the edit was to remove all profanity, unimportant situations (Incontrol funny faces) and give more clarity on both Day9 and IdrA's statements so that the interview can be read by a wider audience. Hmm reading it instead of listening to it is very interesting. Day9's arguments are so much more clear when written down and it comes across much better. It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... and if you had actually listened to the episode you would know that IdrA made just as much sense and sounded just as literate as Day[9]. The transcript has many errors. No I did listen to it. And I agree with you that when i listened to it, Idra destroyed Day9. I'm just surprised at how different the argument sounds when transcripted out.
If by destroyed you mean whined louder yeah he destroyed him. A grown man whining all the time is not very flattering though where I come from.
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This thread will eventually have to get a thread header warning to fix it 
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On May 07 2011 08:20 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:53 randplaty wrote:On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated. Maybe American degrees have a poor reputation in Europe. Doesn't everything American have a poor reputation in Europe? Can't say the same for the rest of the world. I know for a fact that my mediocre American degrees are looked upon by Asians as better than the best degrees you can get in all of Asia. That guy is wrong. US universities do not have a poor reputation.
They should. They don't even have a foreign language requirement. I have cousins in your country that speak and write 3. You can graduate college without knowing calculus or even trig. I am an accounting major and highest math I had to take was business calc with only has limits.
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On May 07 2011 08:21 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:20 Dystisis wrote:Brood War was not made balanced, it took 3 massive balance patches in order to do so, and even then, Idra himself openly stated that there were imbalances in the game..
He has no idea what he is talking about if he says there are imbalances in BW, this is a game played professionally where they have had years of statistical data to show that it is not. The point is exactly that: There may be imbalances in strategies, but they are superficial. They change in one month or three, and then there's another race dominating for some period. the data proves that bw was at times imbalanced, its the maps as much as the meta game that changed that.
Yes, and the maps affect "meta game" (play styles) and play styles eventually affect new maps as well.
You're misusing the word "imbalanced", though. The races were imbalanced *statistically*, strategical imbalances. This does not mean that any race is better than another, which Idra for some reason keeps stating, though he has no grounds for stating it; because the potential of any race is yet to be reached (an equilibrium/culmination of strategy-development), we have all reason to think that a race struggling in the current state of the game will dominate in the next based on player innovation, player skill and map rotation. Idra knows no more about the potential of a race than a Gold level player, all they know is in the paradigm of the current state of the game.
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I am slightly confused on how a thread about SotG can turn into a debate about American universities.
OT: Been watching for a while, very entertaining and funny at the same time. Keep up the good work.
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Australia8532 Posts
I really don't see what all the fuss is about; day9 has the ability to argue with IdrA, if you believe otherwise then you are pretty ignorant - he knows enough the game to provide an alternate and interesting point of view; but he was doing as much as he could to avoid the balance argument because he felt it is a long drawn out debate rather than stating "zomg zeg can't scout"
I would love to see this argument in depth with Sean actually taking the time to methodically reason the "problem with zerg"
I would love to see day9 work with IdrA on his issues with zerg and discover solutions to them - that would be a happy day 
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On May 07 2011 08:35 bkrow wrote:I really don't see what all the fuss is about; day9 has the ability to argue with IdrA, if you believe otherwise then you are pretty ignorant - he knows enough the game to provide an alternate and interesting point of view; but he was doing as much as he could to avoid the balance argument because he felt it is a long drawn out debate rather than stating "zomg zeg can't scout" I would love to see this argument in depth with Sean actually taking the time to methodically reason the "problem with zerg" I would love to see day9 work with IdrA on his issues with zerg and discover solutions to them - that would be a happy day
I would also love to see this, but I doubt it would happen.
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EPT
