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On May 07 2011 07:15 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 06:49 genopath wrote:SC:L has provided a small edited transcript between Day[9] and IdrA from the latest SOTG podcast. http://sclegacy.com/editorials/105-strategy/1005-sotg-idra-vs-day9Edit: The reason for the edit was to remove all profanity, unimportant situations (Incontrol funny faces) and give more clarity on both Day9 and IdrA's statements so that the interview can be read by a wider audience. Hmm reading it instead of listening to it is very interesting. Day9's arguments are so much more clear when written down and it comes across much better. It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait...
It's a poor transcript. And it's very petty of you to now attack IdrA's intelligence, after his maturity.
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On May 07 2011 07:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:15 randplaty wrote:On May 07 2011 06:49 genopath wrote:SC:L has provided a small edited transcript between Day[9] and IdrA from the latest SOTG podcast. http://sclegacy.com/editorials/105-strategy/1005-sotg-idra-vs-day9Edit: The reason for the edit was to remove all profanity, unimportant situations (Incontrol funny faces) and give more clarity on both Day9 and IdrA's statements so that the interview can be read by a wider audience. Hmm reading it instead of listening to it is very interesting. Day9's arguments are so much more clear when written down and it comes across much better. It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... and if you had actually listened to the episode you would know that IdrA made just as much sense and sounded just as literate as Day[9]. The transcript has many errors.
No I did listen to it. And I agree with you that when i listened to it, Idra destroyed Day9. I'm just surprised at how different the argument sounds when transcripted out.
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On May 07 2011 07:31 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 07 2011 07:15 randplaty wrote:On May 07 2011 06:49 genopath wrote:SC:L has provided a small edited transcript between Day[9] and IdrA from the latest SOTG podcast. http://sclegacy.com/editorials/105-strategy/1005-sotg-idra-vs-day9Edit: The reason for the edit was to remove all profanity, unimportant situations (Incontrol funny faces) and give more clarity on both Day9 and IdrA's statements so that the interview can be read by a wider audience. Hmm reading it instead of listening to it is very interesting. Day9's arguments are so much more clear when written down and it comes across much better. It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... and if you had actually listened to the episode you would know that IdrA made just as much sense and sounded just as literate as Day[9]. The transcript has many errors. No I did listen to it. And I agree with you that when i listened to it, Idra destroyed Day9. I'm just surprised at how different the argument sounds when transcripted out.
Destroyed? Idra just yelled louder and Day9 didn't want to resort to chewbacca defensing as much as Idra was. Idra used no logic, he just stated his opinion, day9 offered some interesting discussion, and then Idra restated his opinion and concluded that day9 was wrong. Chewbacca Defense at its finest.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 07:31 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 07 2011 07:15 randplaty wrote:On May 07 2011 06:49 genopath wrote:SC:L has provided a small edited transcript between Day[9] and IdrA from the latest SOTG podcast. http://sclegacy.com/editorials/105-strategy/1005-sotg-idra-vs-day9Edit: The reason for the edit was to remove all profanity, unimportant situations (Incontrol funny faces) and give more clarity on both Day9 and IdrA's statements so that the interview can be read by a wider audience. Hmm reading it instead of listening to it is very interesting. Day9's arguments are so much more clear when written down and it comes across much better. It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... and if you had actually listened to the episode you would know that IdrA made just as much sense and sounded just as literate as Day[9]. The transcript has many errors. No I did listen to it. And I agree with you that when i listened to it, Idra destroyed Day9. I'm just surprised at how different the argument sounds when transcripted out.
That's because Day9 is making reasoned arguments as to how idrA's whole m.o. is flawed and idrA goes on a monologue. idrA can sit there and say 20 reasons why he thinks zerg is UP and Day9 just has to say 'the entire premise of your argument is flawed' once.
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On May 07 2011 07:31 ZessiM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:15 randplaty wrote:On May 07 2011 06:49 genopath wrote:SC:L has provided a small edited transcript between Day[9] and IdrA from the latest SOTG podcast. http://sclegacy.com/editorials/105-strategy/1005-sotg-idra-vs-day9Edit: The reason for the edit was to remove all profanity, unimportant situations (Incontrol funny faces) and give more clarity on both Day9 and IdrA's statements so that the interview can be read by a wider audience. Hmm reading it instead of listening to it is very interesting. Day9's arguments are so much more clear when written down and it comes across much better. It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... It's a poor transcript. And it's very petty of you to now attack IdrA's intelligence, after his maturity.
Aww come on dude. I'm not attacking his intelligence or his maturity... at least not in this statement. I was just commenting on how different it sounds when you read a transcript as opposed to listening to it. If you look about 40 pages back I actually said that Day9 got destroyed in the debate and I was actually very disappointed at how inarticulate he was.
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On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated.
Don't you love how people just make in unsubstantiated arguments like this? Is this the appropriate time for a DUNSEAD comment?
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On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated.
This is idiotic. Aside from the fact that America has a large portion of the most prestigious private and public institutions of higher learning in the world, Day9 has an undergraduate degree in math from a very good college (Harvey Mudd), Tyler's degree is in philosophy? from Duke, and Idra's field of study in college would have been theoretical physics. These are all very clearly intelligent people.
If I remember correctly, Idra has 0 years of higher education. Day9 should have 6.
I would venture to say that there is literally no degree you can obtain at the undergraduate level anywhere in the world that is clearly more impressive than Day9's.
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On May 07 2011 07:03 slyboogie wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents into the discussion. I think the Day[9]/Idra discourse is nothing unique to Starcraft 2. We see that type of dichotomy in dozens of places. It's the economist and the historian, it's the athlete and the sportswriter, it's the politician and the philosopher.
Day[9] talks about Starcraft 2 as a grand mystery, with hundreds of questions to be asked and thousands of hours to be committed. The concept of "balance" exists in the puzzle, but to Day[9], it is the players' search for balance that creates competitive Starcraft. The narrative is interrupted every time Blizzard involves itself - no revolution will occur, no genius to praise. In fact, I think that Day[9] is actually disappointed in Idra's venting/complaining/whining/balance talk (whatever you call it.) He wants Idra to commit himself to the confines of the game and create a way to win. Even if he loses, his struggle would be a nice story.
Idra, on the other hand, has no patience for the romantic idealism of emergent gameplay, of hundreds of fruitless hours looking for some Shangri-la of user created balance. No, he's a competitor and Starcraft 2 is his livelihood. In his eyes, his (non-Zerg) opponents have aluminum bats and he is left to swing away with a two-by-four. He doesn't really care about the valiant struggle of Zerg, he doesn't want to NEED to create brilliance - he already plays as well as anyone. Balance now, legacy later.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Sorry for the broad tone.
Unfortunately i dont think idra will ever be happy with the state of balance, he wasnt in sc1 and he never will be in sc2 regardless of how many times they buff zerg or nerf other races. Blizzard is the one with all the statisical information at their side if it seemed like there was a huge problem with zerg they would change it, i put far more faith in blizzards balance oppinions then i do in idras. And blizzards are the only ones that matter anyways. Sure they listen to players but i doubt they listen to players like idra who have a track record of whining no matter wich race they play. If idra could find a calm and calculated way to discuss balance , maybe, but he talks in absolutes and comes off as a cry baby.
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On May 07 2011 07:31 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 07 2011 07:15 randplaty wrote:On May 07 2011 06:49 genopath wrote:SC:L has provided a small edited transcript between Day[9] and IdrA from the latest SOTG podcast. http://sclegacy.com/editorials/105-strategy/1005-sotg-idra-vs-day9Edit: The reason for the edit was to remove all profanity, unimportant situations (Incontrol funny faces) and give more clarity on both Day9 and IdrA's statements so that the interview can be read by a wider audience. Hmm reading it instead of listening to it is very interesting. Day9's arguments are so much more clear when written down and it comes across much better. It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... and if you had actually listened to the episode you would know that IdrA made just as much sense and sounded just as literate as Day[9]. The transcript has many errors. No I did listen to it. And I agree with you that when i listened to it, Idra destroyed Day9. I'm just surprised at how different the argument sounds when transcripted out.
then what was the purpose of the "oh wait"?
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Idra was just being obnoxious to get 20k viewers obviously.
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On May 07 2011 07:41 Grantiere wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated. This is idiotic. Aside from the fact that America has a large portion of the most prestigious private and public institutions of higher learning in the world, Day9 has an undergraduate degree in math from a very good college (Harvey Mudd), Tyler's degree is in philosophy? from Duke, and Idra's field of study in college would have been theoretical physics. These are all very clearly intelligent people. If I remember correctly, Idra has 0 years of higher education. Day9 should have 6. I would venture to say that there is literally no degree you can obtain at the undergraduate level anywhere in the world that is clearly more impressive than Day9's.
Well idra didnt even start college. He left to play starcraft when he was 17 honestly Im not saying idra's stupid but thats just him saying he would have studied theoretical physics. As of now he has no post secondary education and i wouldnt put him on a pedestal just because he says thats what he would study, hes just the same as any other person without a post secondary education. Hes ill mannered, has very one sided oppinions, is very close minded I honestly dont think he would be very succesful outside of the starcraft world with the attitude he has.
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I do enjoy the part of that transcript where they totally butcher reporting the interaction just prior to Tasteless joining where Day9 says something along the lines of: "I just don't agree that Zerg is somehow violently underpowered." and Idra responds: "But I'm telling you why."
The fact that Idra genuinely believes that Zerg is violently underpowered or that 3 marines can actually stop an overlord from scouting relevant portions of your base is hilarious considering I constantly see him overcoming both of those ideas.
3 Marines take ~10 seconds to kill an overlord.
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On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated.
Maybe American degrees have a poor reputation in Europe. Doesn't everything American have a poor reputation in Europe? Can't say the same for the rest of the world. I know for a fact that my mediocre American degrees are looked upon by Asians as better than the best degrees you can get in all of Asia.
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On May 07 2011 07:47 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:41 Grantiere wrote:On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated. This is idiotic. Aside from the fact that America has a large portion of the most prestigious private and public institutions of higher learning in the world, Day9 has an undergraduate degree in math from a very good college (Harvey Mudd), Tyler's degree is in philosophy? from Duke, and Idra's field of study in college would have been theoretical physics. These are all very clearly intelligent people. If I remember correctly, Idra has 0 years of higher education. Day9 should have 6. I would venture to say that there is literally no degree you can obtain at the undergraduate level anywhere in the world that is clearly more impressive than Day9's. Well idra didnt even start college. He left to play starcraft when he was 17 honestly Im not saying idra's stupid but thats just him saying he would have studied theoretical physics. As of now he has no post secondary education and i wouldnt put him on a pedestal just because he says thats what he would study, hes just the same as any other person without a post secondary education. Hes ill mannered, has very one sided oppinions, is very close minded I honestly dont think he would be very succesful outside of the starcraft world with the attitude he has.
College does not change your IQ. In terms of maturity, spending several years living in a foreign country confers far more maturity than attending college in your native society.
You have to have intelligence in the first place to get into a good college and in the case of IdrA, an intelligent person has spent a considerable amount of time playing and thinking about a relatively strategic game. His understanding of the game makes his observations far more astute and insightful than the vast majority of people who have spent a minute amount of time playing compared to him.
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I feel like Idra was asking very general questions that he obviously has thought about many times before. Day9 has stated before that he doesn't want to think about balance very much then it's quite obvious that he hasn't pondered it much before. Just because day9 doesn't respond with a detailed response in the "argument" doesn't mean he got "destroyed".
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I don't think Day9's point of view on balance is as idealistic or hopelessly abstract as people here make it out to be.
Just a simple glance at the history of Brood War balance (and by balance here I mean statistic of races winning tournaments) will show that strategies and players themselves have a huge impact on the overall health of the statistical performance of a race.
The point is that it will indeed look dark for races from time to time, when they are in the downward curve of the balance-statistical spiral. But players' innovation and coping strategies which deal directly with whatever strategies the other races throw at them, turn that downward spiral upwards and soon the race is statistically dominant, and then it is the other races turn at struggling and innovation, and so it goes on.
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On May 07 2011 05:29 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:40 N3rV[Green] wrote:
So....Zerg is underpowered and cannot win games in a fair manner. Except when nearly every single statistic shows zerg over 50% win vs protoss in every major tournament there has been in the past half a year.
This just strikes me a strange.....Zerg can't possibly win...except when they do, all the fucking time.
Seriously zerg players, just end the stupid bullshit crying.
What zerg is TRYING to say, is that they FEEL like they cannot win a game, the game FEELS hard to win.
I'd say that's a pretty good thing honestly....I'm not sure winning with protoss or terran is "easy" either. where are you getting that statistic and what is a "major tournament"? Also, I've played zerg since beta and I struggle zvp in mid masters. I've played protoss for exactly 3 days (never once before) and I'm now in low/mid masters with my toss account. In my opinion toss is WAY easier. It not that zergs can't physically win, its just that playing toss is easier (requires much less apm imo and you are allowed to make many more mistakes). This doesn't guarantee the win, but it makes it... well easier lol
easiers mean nothing tho. Some race is always easier like even in sc1. Protoss was probably the easiest race for low/mid level players, but how long do you think you have to play to be able to ff like MC?
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On May 07 2011 07:03 slyboogie wrote:
Just to drop my 2 cents into the discussion. I think the Day[9]/Idra discourse is nothing unique to Starcraft 2. We see that type of dichotomy in dozens of places. It's the economist and the historian, it's the athlete and the sportswriter, it's the politician and the philosopher.
Day[9] talks about Starcraft 2 as a grand mystery, with hundreds of questions to be asked and thousands of hours to be committed. The concept of "balance" exists in the puzzle, but to Day[9], it is the players' search for balance that creates competitive Starcraft. The narrative is interrupted every time Blizzard involves itself - no revolution will occur, no genius to praise. In fact, I think that Day[9] is actually disappointed in Idra's venting/complaining/whining/balance talk (whatever you call it.) He wants Idra to commit himself to the confines of the game and create a way to win. Even if he loses, his struggle would be a nice story.
Idra, on the other hand, has no patience for the romantic idealism of emergent gameplay, of hundreds of fruitless hours looking for some Shangri-la of user created balance. No, he's a competitor and Starcraft 2 is his livelihood. In his eyes, his (non-Zerg) opponents have aluminum bats and he is left to swing away with a two-by-four. He doesn't really care about the valiant struggle of Zerg, he doesn't want to NEED to create brilliance - he already plays as well as anyone. Balance now, legacy later.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. Sorry for the broad tone.
No. Nicely written, and you did manage to fool some people here but..
Here's where Idras (and your) whole argument falls apart; If he really believed what he was saying and didn't just want some scapegoat for being bad in a specific game, or some reason to get attention, then guess what?
HE IS FREE TO CHANGE HIS RACE
That is the difference in SC2 compared to the other situations you mentioned. If it really came down to brass tacks and like you said it was"his livelihood" at stake, don't you think he would have changed race by now after whining for so long?
That means either:
1) He thinks Zerg give him the best chance of winning.
In which case fuck him and his whining, it's becoming a joke and as witnessed on SotG people just laugh at him cause they know he is full of shit. I mean seriously? How can people even take him seriously when he says absurd shit like "We are supposed to win, we've been in Korea for 3 years". He sounded like a spoilt brat who thinks he should get wins on a silver platter for playing a completely different game for afew years in Korea.
2)He also shares Day9's view, and thinks there is some puzzle to be solved.
In which case he should keep his arrogant mouth shut and let people play the game instead of acting like the spoilt whining child constantly.
Going off historical evidence there is no reason that day9's point of view isn't valid. Hey, it worked for another little game called Starcraft: Broodwar. Idras point of view on the otherhand holds no worth at all, he whined about his race (Terran) in BW when the majority of people thought it was probably the strongest in top level play (paraphrasing from what Incontrol said). And now he is whining in SC2 when Zerg are probably the strongest race right now.
TL;DR Idra should stfu sometimes and focus on improving his gameplay instead of assuming he is already perfect and it's the game that is broken.
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"IdrA: So if you are opposed to any imbalance...Obviously things are imbalanced, things were imbalanced in StarCraft 1 they just happen to counteract each other..."
Hahaha, that's by far my favorite part of the "discussion". How I read it:
"So if you are opposed to any imbalance... Obviously things are imbalanced. Things were imbalanced in SC1, but they just happened to balance each other out in their imbalance..."
It made me laugh 
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On May 07 2011 07:47 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:41 Grantiere wrote:On May 07 2011 07:22 Leavzou wrote:It's like Day9 is extremely educated and idra is not... oh wait... Americans degrees have a very poor reputation around the world, I don't think you can argue that Day9 is a very educated person. He just took mores years of learning than Idra, but he is not more educated. This is idiotic. Aside from the fact that America has a large portion of the most prestigious private and public institutions of higher learning in the world, Day9 has an undergraduate degree in math from a very good college (Harvey Mudd), Tyler's degree is in philosophy? from Duke, and Idra's field of study in college would have been theoretical physics. These are all very clearly intelligent people. If I remember correctly, Idra has 0 years of higher education. Day9 should have 6. I would venture to say that there is literally no degree you can obtain at the undergraduate level anywhere in the world that is clearly more impressive than Day9's. Well idra didnt even start college. He left to play starcraft when he was 17 honestly Im not saying idra's stupid but thats just him saying he would have studied theoretical physics. As of now he has no post secondary education and i wouldnt put him on a pedestal just because he says thats what he would study, hes just the same as any other person without a post secondary education. Hes ill mannered, has very one sided oppinions, is very close minded I honestly dont think he would be very succesful outside of the starcraft world with the attitude he has.
You'd be surprised. The world is full of very successful intelligent cynics, especially ones willing to work hard. I think Idra is all of these things. I'm skeptical that he'll ever be a creator, but as a refiner, he strikes me as likely being successful in all kinds of roles or areas. As to his maturity, that's basically a function of age.
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EPT
