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On May 07 2011 02:59 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:58 ZessiM wrote:On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
The problem with SC2 esports right now is that it's being run by 22-28 year olds. In most sports, guys who whine like Idra would be deemed an "immature rookie" and older players would put him in line. Even if older players got out of line, there would be 50-60 year old coaches and sportscasters who could put players in line or remind them of how to behave. Instead, players run the league. When players get out of line or say something untrue about the game, there is no check to keep the players in line.
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance? Could you imagine Alex Rodriguez actively participating in a Yankees forum and telling fans that they know nothing about baseball?
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport and people like Idra are just not going to listen to him. The argument between Tyler and InControl would never happen in a real professional sports setting. SC2 has a LOT of growing up to do... literally.
Imagine if the NFL were run by Rashard Mendenhall and Antonio Cromartie. Day9 is only 23 or something... Comparing balance in a 1-year-old game to the rules of a 150-year-old sport is kind of silly, too. The point is to say that the game AND the players need to grow up. Yeah its a 1 year old game, and that's part of the problem.
I guess I think it's just a bit undermining to say that people like IdrA's 'whining' is a result of immaturity in the game, and that he should listen to his elders (whoever they may be).
IdrA is right to air his views, and I thought it was absurd the way the other guests on SotG laughed him off the last time he brought them up (episode 33)
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I'd be curious to see a Zerg get 2 Hatch + 2 Queen, but only use one Hatch for production, and the other to pile up larva. That way, you could have the ability to spawn a ton of units if the opponent shows an aggressive or overly-greedy hand, without actually sinking very many resources in attack units until you need them. (And throw them all into drones, if the opponent does not.) You'd still be able to outdrone a 1-base Protoss or Terran with 1 Hatch 1 Queen.
This would waste 4 larva per minute (since the Hatchery itself cannot produce larva, only injections), out of your total production of 19-20 larva/minute, which is potentially acceptable.
On May 07 2011 03:32 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg can build 4+ Queens without doing a heavy Spine defense style. Spine Crawlers are a substitute for Speedling or Roach that allows you to defend for cheaper (--> more drones) but leaves you with few mobile units.
Is there a reason why Zerg couldn't, say, 13 Hatch 15 Pool --> gas --> 4 Queens & Zergling Speed? They can (that's what I do when I run the build). If you're making enough speedlings to be intimidating in terms of harass potential, though, you're slightly defeating the purpose of the build, which is to primarily focus larvae on drones.
Fun!
I agree it's not really an 'Ice Fisher' build if you're getting Zerglings and some early gas instead of mass mass mass drones... but a lot of Zergies prefer Speedling to Spine + Drone, and then get grumpy when they die to, say, an air rush, because they only got two Queens!
Show nested quote +Spanishiwa's 'Ice Fisher' ends up with a large economic advantage because he can build workers and use his natural much faster than a Protoss or Terran opponent. (Unless they FE, in which case he obviously doesn't need to pile up Spines so he can do the rest of his build faster.) It's the other player who has to play catchup on the economic front, while Spanishiwa catches up on tech. The problem is that you're behind on tech and units capable of attacking/harassing. You can catch up quickly because Zerg can build an army so quickly, yes, but you're still behind.
Sure, but you're way ahead in income until the other player catches up, so you can afford to buy those things.
I didn't mean to try to discredit Ice Fisher with my post, so if it sounded that way I apologize. I use it pretty often on maps where I'm leery about early aggression or stargate/banshee plays, it's helped my play a lot. I was trying to point out the flaws in it, but that's not to say it's a bad build, since if there was a build without flaws this would be a terrible game.
I'm glad! I didn't think our discussion was antagonistic. 
Ice Fisher is a somewhat extreme build, like a Broodwar 4-hatch-before-gas, and I imagine the stablest incarnations will be more moderate. Although I really want to see a rush to 44 drones, followed by a massive baneling bust instead of a Lair...
16 Zerglings + 16 Banelings/minute. Wheeeeeee!
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On May 07 2011 04:06 Grokken wrote:Show nested quote +
As for Zvp, its hardly an issue as well. What can they go? DT shrine? Stargate? Both of those require two gas, which you should be able to tell. Furthormore stalkers can't kill an overlord as fast as a marine(at least not get them out right away) so it usually is able to scout what exactly is happening. Simply getting an evo and placing a spore crawler at a ramp negates both dts and air. Hell, I saw Idra hold off a stargate first build with two queens and two spore crawlers, not building anything else. I've seen NesTea hold off a 4 gate when he only had one ling at the start.
DT rush 3 gate expand 3 gate pressure Stargate Blink stalkers are the most standard builds i think. Most of them require completely different responses and if you dont respond to them perfectly you usually autolose. They can also take the gas just for show and 4 gate.
If he's going dt rush/stargate and even blink stalkers in some cases it is obvious becasue they get a very early second gas. Heck, if zergs really become that worried about it then they can take the second gas, but until then it's basically a boon to the zerg.
Once you see him take a second gas, you are safe for a while. Unless he's doing a 4 gate and FAKED getting the second gas, then that's going to be easily dealt with because of the same 4 gate tells: stalker popping out, chrono saved up...etc....
If you still see constant stalkers coming out, then you are pretty sure it's blink stalkers(why so many?) You go hydras.
Stargate builds can be easily responded to by either an evo(75 minerals) or a third queen(150), neither of which are detrimental to the zerg.
3 gate pressure and 3 gate expand you just go speedling and drone up. Easily told because they get sentries.
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The point that Day[9] was making was not about balance, he was talking theoretical the game in THE END will end up being balanced because if there is only one strategy (race) that wins everyone will play the strategy (race) and who ever plays it better will win.
Both Idra and Day[9] were not listening to each other and they were both not quite talking about the same thing, so yes both of them are at fault with that (hey sounds like whenever any 2 people argue right?) but the point Day[9] was making to Idra was HOW he was trying to get his point across. Idra states things in a way that comes off as complaining or sounding like he is ranting which doesn't help when trying to discuss balance. What sean was saying is that if you actually want to talk about balance you have to put aside your personal feeling and try to look at the game more subjective. Idra is a phenomenal player but when it comes to discussion's he has a problem conveying what he means without sounding whiney.
In the end like with most arguments both side had some good points so instead of taking sides think how do both of these opinions effect my game play (if that is what you are after) or how does it effect the game and eSports and try and bring more constructive ideas and opinions instead of constant counter points which just leads to more back and forth and not much progressive movement.
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On May 07 2011 03:13 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport Ya know Day9 is actually the younger brother? It seems like everyone assumes it's the other way around. And Artosis is older than them both. And WhiteRa is older than Artosis. But this is taking nothing away from the point of your post, which I think makes a good point.
Wow, this just blew my mind. I always figured day9 was older for some reason. I swear he referred to tasteless as his younger bro.
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On May 07 2011 04:11 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:06 Grokken wrote:
As for Zvp, its hardly an issue as well. What can they go? DT shrine? Stargate? Both of those require two gas, which you should be able to tell. Furthormore stalkers can't kill an overlord as fast as a marine(at least not get them out right away) so it usually is able to scout what exactly is happening. Simply getting an evo and placing a spore crawler at a ramp negates both dts and air. Hell, I saw Idra hold off a stargate first build with two queens and two spore crawlers, not building anything else. I've seen NesTea hold off a 4 gate when he only had one ling at the start.
DT rush 3 gate expand 3 gate pressure Stargate Blink stalkers are the most standard builds i think. Most of them require completely different responses and if you dont respond to them perfectly you usually autolose. They can also take the gas just for show and 4 gate. If he's going dt rush/stargate and even blink stalkers in some cases it is obvious becasue they get a very early second gas. Heck, if zergs really become that worried about it then they can take the second gas, but until then it's basically a boon to the zerg. Once you see him take a second gas, you are safe for a while. Unless he's doing a 4 gate and FAKED getting the second gas, then that's going to be easily dealt with because of the same 4 gate tells: stalker popping out, chrono saved up...etc.... If you still see constant stalkers coming out, then you are pretty sure it's blink stalkers(why so many?) You go hydras. Stargate builds can be easily responded to by either an evo(75 minerals) or a third queen(150), neither of which are detrimental to the zerg. 3 gate pressure and 3 gate expand you just go speedling and drone up. Easily told because they get sentries.
They don't really need to take a super ultra fast gas to go dts or stargate, they can just gas after core as usual. Faking a 2nd gas and going 4gate only costs 75 minerals and is definitely possible. Stargate/dt rush is also possible even after 2 stalkers. If you scout a blink stalker rush after warpgate finishes there is no way in hell you can get hydras up in time. Building an evo is not enough to defend stargate builds and dt builds you need atleast 2 spores as well. Another possibility is that theyre just 3 expanding like normal and just making 2 stalker to confuse you. Basically theyre free to do anything they want even after taking 2 gas. If they do sneaky stuff and change their builds the attack will be slightly weaker or slower but it usually doesnt matter if zergs respond incorrectly.
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For everyone that is raging at IdrA for dismissing spanishiwa's mass queen early defense style, I would just like to point out that about 6 months ago, IdrA and Artosis were fooling around with mass queens in the early game for ridiculous creep spread/defense. There is a reason they both stopped using it. If your opponent expects it he can cut corners and get ahead economically which leaves zerg behind in tech, economy and without an attacking force.
On May 07 2011 01:37 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 01:10 DoomsVille wrote:
For those asking earlier, I lost respect for Day9 because he basically baited IdrA into having a balance "discussion" and then respond with literally 0 content. I mean IdrA started off by saying he didn't want to discuss it because Day9 would dismiss everything he says. What does Day9 do? Dismisses everything IdrA says. He provided no real response to IdrAs early game scouting business. There was literally no content in anything Day9 said.
And IdrA wasn't making huge blanket statements.
He basically said early game all-ins/aggression are very powerful against zerg (as zerg have no walls, weaker defensive units and no AA units until much later than the other races) and the other races have many options in this respect (especially terrans with drops, hellions, blue flame, banshees etc.). This leads to zerg either needing to be able to defend against all of them or being able to have some way of figuring out what the opponent is doing to respond appropriately (early game scouting). If you can't do either, you're basically guessing.
Now he didn't say he has a problem with a guessing game. As long as both sides have to guess equally. But he did say it is bad for esports, which it most definately is. It is clearly not as bad for terrans/protoss to figure out what their opponents are doing (terrans should never complain, reapers are awesome scouts, hellions can get into a zergs base and if you're desperate you can scan). Toss has some early game issues, but as soon as hallucination comes out, or a sentry, you have scouting the rest of the game whenever you want it for free. And scouting isn't as important in the early game for toss as they are very very strong defensively (walling + sentry FFs).
Basically IdrA doesn't want a guessing game. It is bad for esports and really makes it so that the best player doesn't necessarily win (which is dumb in a game that is supposed to test skill). I mean this wasn't a balance discussion as much as it was a poor game design discussion. You can't argue against zerg having poor early game scouting... it is a fact. And you can't argue that zerg is most susceptible to early game all-ins... it is also a fact. Starcraft is far too varied of a game with many chance elements for it ever to be a game where the best player always wins. Flash is clearly the best BW player but he "only" wins about 80% of his games. Would you argue that's bad for BW e-sports?
I didn't mean it as an absolute. I don't expect the better player to win 100% of the time. But the way the game is right now, the worse player can win far too regularly just because his opponent guessed wrong.
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On May 07 2011 03:59 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
The problem with SC2 esports right now is that it's being run by 22-28 year olds. In most sports, guys who whine like Idra would be deemed an "immature rookie" and older players would put him in line. Even if older players got out of line, there would be 50-60 year old coaches and sportscasters who could put players in line or remind them of how to behave. Instead, players run the league. When players get out of line or say something untrue about the game, there is no check to keep the players in line.
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance? Could you imagine Alex Rodriguez actively participating in a Yankees forum and telling fans that they know nothing about baseball?
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport and people like Idra are just not going to listen to him. The argument between Tyler and InControl would never happen in a real professional sports setting. SC2 has a LOT of growing up to do... literally.
Imagine if the NFL were run by Rashard Mendenhall and Antonio Cromartie. This is not an apt example at all, and i'd say you don't watch very much football if you say players don't complain about rules. There has been massive backlash in the NFL by defensive players complaining about all of the rule changes in the past few years, and you would see nonstop complaining about the rules if the league didn't clamp down so hard on player comments with fines. At least in SC2 all the players are subject to the same(perceived or not) imbalance, unlike the NFL where fines are given out subjectively ( see James Harrison). Your A-Rod comment is also off-base. A more apt comparison would be highschool ballplayers telling A-Rod not to complain about things in the MLB because they're doing fine on their high school team, and A-Rod saying that they aren't in a place to judge that. Also you say things about "what if the players ruled the league", you do realize that the NFL is in a lockout right now(although by rumors it may be over soon) because the players and the owners can't agree on things... that seems like they have a pretty big damn influence. The NFL and SC2 eSports scene have one thing truly in common, and that's that the most important thing to the scene are the players. I'd say its fair to recognize that they probably have a better grasp on the state of the game than we do.
I'd say you're pretty off base here. Find every statement you can of defensive players complaining about NFL rules in the past 4 years. I'll find that same number of statements complaining about balance in SC2 in the past MONTH.
Why are high school ballplayers a better example? I consider myself a fan of SC2, in the same way as I am a fan of baseball. I play on the side with my friends, never in competitive tournaments. Do I still go on forums and talk about how my team is making the wrong moves etc? Sure. Do general managers and players come on the forums and tell fans that they're wrong and need to stop complaining? No way. That's part of being a fan. Discussing the game and discussing your team and arguing and everything is part of being a fan. You don't think discussion is part of being a fan?
Plus you're ignoring the entire point, which is that there is nobody in the sport aged 40 or above. You don't think that makes a difference?
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I don't like the argument that the player who puts the most time in should win. That's just not how ANYTHING works. In all other professions all the time you have people who work extremely hard and dedicate a lot of time that just aren't as effective as others who only put in half the time and don't even care.
I'm not saying this in anyway to say that Idra is or isn't better than any of the players he's claiming he is, only that saying I should beat these people because I play more than them doesn't make any sense. Practice will always help, but it's certainly no guarantee of anything.
And on the same note just because someone doesn't have a recognizable name yet doesn't mean they're terrible nobodies or any such nonsense. This is going to happen when a game explodes on a scene like SC2 has. As it becomes more and more accessible more and more people are going to be trying to compete and there are going to be a lot of unknown players who it turns out are really good.
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No, it doesn't make any difference. High school ball players are a better example because the people who are complaining about balance, in the majority, are unprofessional players. Find how many players in the last month who play on a professional level make legitimate claims to being underpowered.
Age has virtually no impact on maturity, it never has and it never will. I guess when you're like 16 or 17 years old it feels like that should make sense, but it's incredibly inaccurate and naive to assume.
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On May 07 2011 04:25 Grokken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:11 Pandain wrote:On May 07 2011 04:06 Grokken wrote:
As for Zvp, its hardly an issue as well. What can they go? DT shrine? Stargate? Both of those require two gas, which you should be able to tell. Furthormore stalkers can't kill an overlord as fast as a marine(at least not get them out right away) so it usually is able to scout what exactly is happening. Simply getting an evo and placing a spore crawler at a ramp negates both dts and air. Hell, I saw Idra hold off a stargate first build with two queens and two spore crawlers, not building anything else. I've seen NesTea hold off a 4 gate when he only had one ling at the start.
DT rush 3 gate expand 3 gate pressure Stargate Blink stalkers are the most standard builds i think. Most of them require completely different responses and if you dont respond to them perfectly you usually autolose. They can also take the gas just for show and 4 gate. If he's going dt rush/stargate and even blink stalkers in some cases it is obvious becasue they get a very early second gas. Heck, if zergs really become that worried about it then they can take the second gas, but until then it's basically a boon to the zerg. Once you see him take a second gas, you are safe for a while. Unless he's doing a 4 gate and FAKED getting the second gas, then that's going to be easily dealt with because of the same 4 gate tells: stalker popping out, chrono saved up...etc.... If you still see constant stalkers coming out, then you are pretty sure it's blink stalkers(why so many?) You go hydras. Stargate builds can be easily responded to by either an evo(75 minerals) or a third queen(150), neither of which are detrimental to the zerg. 3 gate pressure and 3 gate expand you just go speedling and drone up. Easily told because they get sentries. They don't really need to take a super ultra fast gas to go dts or stargate, they can just gas after core as usual. Faking a 2nd gas and going 4gate only costs 75 minerals and is definitely possible. Stargate/dt rush is also possible even after 2 stalkers. If you scout a blink stalker rush after warpgate finishes there is no way in hell you can get hydras up in time. Building an evo is not enough to defend stargate builds and dt builds you need atleast 2 spores as well. Another possibility is that theyre just 3 expanding like normal and just making 2 stalker to confuse you. Basically theyre free to do anything they want even after taking 2 gas. If they do sneaky stuff and change their builds the attack will be slightly weaker or slower but it usually doesnt matter if zergs respond incorrectly.
Agreed, but these are all tells. If a person gets a "fake" second gas, and then gets out a stalker, then you obviously are going to be checking things:
1.Are they still chroning cybernetics core
2.Did they have chrono saved up?(HUGE sign of something fishy going up)
3. Are they still producing units out of gateway? What are they?
These are all tells. Not to mention the fact that you should have an overlord going in right now, and should be able to get at least some information.
As for evo, I'm saying to be safe you need it. Then if you see a voidray/dt, you can make some spores.
Furthormore, it won't be after warpgate finishes but you should be able to divulge by then whether they are going blink stalker, and if they hadn't attacked by then you know it. Heck, even if your a bit late you can delay with lings and roach ling vs blink isn't too bad either.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
I agree with Tyler's sentiments regarding how excessively aggressive and argumentative most debates end up becoming on SOTG... i think its not productive at all especially since incontrol has an unfair advantage due to his experience on debate team and willingness to use personal attacks/manipulation and extremely aggressive language just to one up everyone else (which is totally boring and unprofessional, but whats new with incontrol). Plus doesn't even lend itself to any meaningful conclusions apart from the fact that he won and that's all we ever take away from it apart from a complete waste of 40 minutes.
imo JP should attempt to moderate discussion a bit more leniently so it doesn't get out of hand in future, lately i've noticed discussions on SOTG become much more hostile and argumentative as of late which just isn't very fun at all. Hopefully I'm not alone with this view
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On May 07 2011 04:47 Maliris wrote:
I agree with Tyler's sentiments regarding how excessively aggressive and argumentative most debates end up becoming on SOTG... i think its not productive at all especially since incontrol has an unfair advantage due to his experience on debate team and willingness to use personal attacks/manipulation and extremely aggressive language just to one up everyone else (which is totally boring and unprofessional, but whats new with incontrol). Plus doesn't even lend itself to any meaningful conclusions apart from the fact that he won and that's all we ever take away from it apart from a complete waste of 40 minutes.
imo JP should attempt to moderate discussion a bit more leniently so it doesn't get out of hand in future, lately i've noticed discussions on SOTG become much more hostile and argumentative as of late which just isn't very fun at all. Hopefully I'm not alone with this view
If his experience on debate team actually came into consideration, then he would know to be more rational and not resorting to fallacies or deceptive tactics in order to "win" over his opponent.
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On May 07 2011 04:40 Kich wrote:
No, it doesn't make any difference. High school ball players are a better example because the people who are complaining about balance, in the majority, are unprofessional players. Find how many players in the last month who play on a professional level make legitimate claims to being underpowered.
Age has virtually no impact on maturity, it never has and it never will. I guess when you're like 16 or 17 years old it feels like that should make sense, but it's incredibly inaccurate and naive to assume.
I'd say the majority of baseball fans haven't even played baseball on the high school level. Most of them played when they were kids in little league. They're still allowed to "talk" and complain about players on forums and on radio talk shows.
Age has no impact on maturity? Wow. That's patently false. I agree that SOME 20 year olds may be more mature than 60 year olds and age does not necessarily = maturity, but overall, age does affect maturity. The older you get the more you'll realize that age has a LOT of affect on maturity.
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is all good until one starts throwing motherfuckers etc. luckily the other dude just stayed calm. pwned
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On May 07 2011 04:34 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 03:59 PHILtheTANK wrote:On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
The problem with SC2 esports right now is that it's being run by 22-28 year olds. In most sports, guys who whine like Idra would be deemed an "immature rookie" and older players would put him in line. Even if older players got out of line, there would be 50-60 year old coaches and sportscasters who could put players in line or remind them of how to behave. Instead, players run the league. When players get out of line or say something untrue about the game, there is no check to keep the players in line.
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance? Could you imagine Alex Rodriguez actively participating in a Yankees forum and telling fans that they know nothing about baseball?
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport and people like Idra are just not going to listen to him. The argument between Tyler and InControl would never happen in a real professional sports setting. SC2 has a LOT of growing up to do... literally.
Imagine if the NFL were run by Rashard Mendenhall and Antonio Cromartie. This is not an apt example at all, and i'd say you don't watch very much football if you say players don't complain about rules. There has been massive backlash in the NFL by defensive players complaining about all of the rule changes in the past few years, and you would see nonstop complaining about the rules if the league didn't clamp down so hard on player comments with fines. At least in SC2 all the players are subject to the same(perceived or not) imbalance, unlike the NFL where fines are given out subjectively ( see James Harrison). Your A-Rod comment is also off-base. A more apt comparison would be highschool ballplayers telling A-Rod not to complain about things in the MLB because they're doing fine on their high school team, and A-Rod saying that they aren't in a place to judge that. Also you say things about "what if the players ruled the league", you do realize that the NFL is in a lockout right now(although by rumors it may be over soon) because the players and the owners can't agree on things... that seems like they have a pretty big damn influence. The NFL and SC2 eSports scene have one thing truly in common, and that's that the most important thing to the scene are the players. I'd say its fair to recognize that they probably have a better grasp on the state of the game than we do. I'd say you're pretty off base here. Find every statement you can of defensive players complaining about NFL rules in the past 4 years. I'll find that same number of statements complaining about balance in SC2 in the past MONTH. Why are high school ballplayers a better example? I consider myself a fan of SC2, in the same way as I am a fan of baseball. I play on the side with my friends, never in competitive tournaments. Do I still go on forums and talk about how my team is making the wrong moves etc? Sure. Do general managers and players come on the forums and tell fans that they're wrong and need to stop complaining? No way. That's part of being a fan. Discussing the game and discussing your team and arguing and everything is part of being a fan. You don't think discussion is part of being a fan? Plus you're ignoring the entire point, which is that there is nobody in the sport aged 40 or above. You don't think that makes a difference?
I'm not going to spend the time looking up all of the complaints players have made, especially when its clear that there would be a ton more complaints if they weren't getting fined everytime they opened up their mouths.
The reason i say its like high school players is because most of the complaining about imbalance from non pro players is from their experience playing the game, not watching. You can't compare sports and eSports fans because 99% of eSports fans are people who play the game as well, while almost very few sports fans are actively playing the sport they watch. We derive alot of our assumptions about the game from our play, not just from watching the pros play.
The fact that there is nobody in the sport aged 40 or above is a completely moot point. Age doesn't mean any thing. The only reason in life that age is ever used comparatively is because it usually means experience. How much experience can you have in a year old game? All of those old coaches and commentators don't know anything about the game because they're 40, its because they've been playing/watching/coaching football for 30 years. When it comes to dissecting the game I'd rather trust some 21 year old "kid" who has spent the last year of his life playing the game nonstop than some 40 year old person, just for the sake that they're 40.
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On May 07 2011 04:52 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:40 Kich wrote:
No, it doesn't make any difference. High school ball players are a better example because the people who are complaining about balance, in the majority, are unprofessional players. Find how many players in the last month who play on a professional level make legitimate claims to being underpowered.
Age has virtually no impact on maturity, it never has and it never will. I guess when you're like 16 or 17 years old it feels like that should make sense, but it's incredibly inaccurate and naive to assume. I'd say the majority of baseball fans haven't even played baseball on the high school level. Most of them played when they were kids in little league. They're still allowed to "talk" and complain about players on forums and on radio talk shows. Age has no impact on maturity? Wow. That's patently false. I agree that SOME 20 year olds may be more mature than 60 year olds and age does not necessarily = maturity, but overall, age does affect maturity. The older you get the more you'll realize that age has a LOT of affect on maturity.
No, the older I get the more I realize that maturity is strictly unrelated to age; age gives one more experience, but those two things are mutually exclusive. Maturity is how you handle yourself, maturity is something that is independent, person to person. Go work in retail for awhile, the amount of disrespect, immaturity, and sense of entitlement that the elderly exemplify is no less or more than younger individuals.
That kind of claim is almost as bad as arbitrarily saying boys are better at girls at video games, a fundamentally untrue statement.
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On May 07 2011 04:54 zasda wrote:
is all good until one starts throwing motherfuckers etc. luckily the other dude just stayed calm. pwned
Listen to the discussion again please. Tell me who loses his cool and starts rambling about "keeping it real on the forum". Incontrol shot down everything Tyler had to say, and Tyler was really stubborn about his points and kind of lost his way.
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On May 07 2011 04:58 Kich wrote:
No, the older I get the more I realize that maturity is strictly unrelated to age; age gives one more experience, but those two things are mutually exclusive. Maturity is how you handle yourself, maturity is something that is independent, person to person. Go work in retail for awhile, the amount of disrespect, immaturity, and sense of entitlement that the elderly exemplify is no less or more than younger individuals.
That kind of claim is almost as bad as arbitrarily saying boys are better at girls at video games, a fundamentally untrue statement.
Experience does not equal maturity, but to say they are mutually exclusive is really... uhh... makes me think you don't know what mutually exclusive means? Mutually exclusive means that if you have experience you cannot have maturity. I'm sure you're not saying that... are you?
I agree with you that maturity is something that a 20 year can definitely have, but experience has a LOT to do with it. It is related. And you know what? If you said that a bunch of 40 year olds don't really have much maturity difference than 60 year olds... I MIGHT be able to see where you're coming from. But SC2 pros are 15-25 generally. This is an age where people are seriously still growing up. A good number of SC2 pros can't even drink legally.
I'm not criticizing the game or even suggesting that things need to change. All I'm saying is that people need to realize how immature the game AND the players are... and that we should take a lot of things with a grain of salt. Instead of viewing some immature statements as... "wow that's insulting." Think of it as, "well he's still young."
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 07 2011 04:52 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:47 Maliris wrote:
I agree with Tyler's sentiments regarding how excessively aggressive and argumentative most debates end up becoming on SOTG... i think its not productive at all especially since incontrol has an unfair advantage due to his experience on debate team and willingness to use personal attacks/manipulation and extremely aggressive language just to one up everyone else (which is totally boring and unprofessional, but whats new with incontrol). Plus doesn't even lend itself to any meaningful conclusions apart from the fact that he won and that's all we ever take away from it apart from a complete waste of 40 minutes.
imo JP should attempt to moderate discussion a bit more leniently so it doesn't get out of hand in future, lately i've noticed discussions on SOTG become much more hostile and argumentative as of late which just isn't very fun at all. Hopefully I'm not alone with this view If his experience on debate team actually came into consideration, then he would know to be more rational and not resorting to fallacies or deceptive tactics in order to "win" over his opponent.
In theory yes, but based on the evidence apparently not.
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EPT
