On May 07 2011 01:10 DoomsVille wrote: For those asking earlier, I lost respect for Day9 because he basically baited IdrA into having a balance "discussion" and then respond with literally 0 content. I mean IdrA started off by saying he didn't want to discuss it because Day9 would dismiss everything he says. What does Day9 do? Dismisses everything IdrA says. He provided no real response to IdrAs early game scouting business. There was literally no content in anything Day9 said.
And IdrA wasn't making huge blanket statements.
He basically said early game all-ins/aggression are very powerful against zerg (as zerg have no walls, weaker defensive units and no AA units until much later than the other races) and the other races have many options in this respect (especially terrans with drops, hellions, blue flame, banshees etc.). This leads to zerg either needing to be able to defend against all of them or being able to have some way of figuring out what the opponent is doing to respond appropriately (early game scouting). If you can't do either, you're basically guessing.
Now he didn't say he has a problem with a guessing game. As long as both sides have to guess equally. But he did say it is bad for esports, which it most definately is. It is clearly not as bad for terrans/protoss to figure out what their opponents are doing (terrans should never complain, reapers are awesome scouts, hellions can get into a zergs base and if you're desperate you can scan). Toss has some early game issues, but as soon as hallucination comes out, or a sentry, you have scouting the rest of the game whenever you want it for free. And scouting isn't as important in the early game for toss as they are very very strong defensively (walling + sentry FFs).
Basically IdrA doesn't want a guessing game. It is bad for esports and really makes it so that the best player doesn't necessarily win (which is dumb in a game that is supposed to test skill). I mean this wasn't a balance discussion as much as it was a poor game design discussion. You can't argue against zerg having poor early game scouting... it is a fact. And you can't argue that zerg is most susceptible to early game all-ins... it is also a fact.
I actually also said that IdrA's comments seemed to be more design based rather than balanced based... which is why I saw the whole "balance" discussion as useless. I would much rather that IdrA simply say that he wants to discuss the game's design, and possibly how it relates to balance. A race being poorly designed does not imply that they are underpowered.
I do have to agree though, that if Day9 is going to push IdrA into a balance discussion, he should be willing to follow it up.
On May 07 2011 00:33 Kich wrote: And I genuinely feel that Tasteless' argument was a bad one, I fully understand where it came from, I wasn't addressing that. What I was saying is that in the history of SC:BW in it's entirety, the "Terran's only will attack with X or Y so their options were limited" was not fundamentally true from day 0 until today, that there was a great deal of shifts in the metagame until NOW, at this point in time, Terran only attacks with those two styles because, as Day9 inferred, after 13 years--those strategies are believed/proven to currently be the best strategies.
To say that "In some other game that's been out for 13 years, you only have to worry about these 2 strategies, and in this game that's been publicly released for less than a year and is still undergoing volatile shifts in the metagame you have to deal with all kinds of things because no one's figured out what the best strategies are yet, so Zerg has less options" is an argument that lacks actual substance.
The point is that over time, those strategies will be hammered out and it's way too early to say that Zerg's underpowered as a race right now because it's fundamentally unable to be proven. If SC2 had been out for as long as BW has been out and the same problems still arose, then a clear issue in balance could be discussed: because there is insurmountable evidence that it is the case.
So you have to ask yourself: do you believe that zerg is underpowered? Or can you provide overwhelming evidence that zerg is underpowered and that you are compelled, by a logical analysis of both the observations and evidence provided, to conclude that zerg is underpowered?
Or have you just lost games to cheese like everyone else and feel you're entitled to buffs because of it?
I only use my own personnal experience, but I never thought that zerg were underpower, might even be overpower mid/late game in ZvT. My point is that zerg as a whole has a flawed design and lack a certain defensive units (the lurker in BW), because of that things seems even in ZvT. Overall, that flawed design makes most zerg player resort to guessing / chancy kind of play, and it's actually not good for the game because the one who win never feel like he should have or deserved it (at least for ZvP). Because I explain IdrA's argument does not mean I'm 100% behind it. For exemple, the colossi is bad designed as well, and poor if you compare it to the reaver, but I never thought it was imbalanced.
Zerg has solid defense in the Queen, the Spine Crawler, and Creep.
You did not understand a thing. The problem is not the queen the spine and creep, the problem is that you need a way to defend yourself without having to commit too much in it so that you don't loose too much maccro wise. Spine crawler cannot be made in reaction because they're too slow to build: you need to make them even if your opponent is not gonna attack, and that's not good maccro wise. Same for Queen, and they can't be offensiv because of their slow. You have no cost efficient way to defend yourself against anything, you always need to mass units / spine / queen preemptively while a Terran can put down 3-4 bunker and sell them back, loosing only 100 mineral post patch, can also use tanks to defend and use them in attack afterwards, and protoss have sentries and wall in: you can tech and defend yourself, while zerg cannot because you need to mass units (or you just take the risk and tech, and loose to some random cheese once in a while, like a boss).
The best way is still to make units, but they suck in offense.
Having 1 units like the lurker will also give zerg a way to defend bases with a minimal commitment, and would make game a lot more dynamic.
I was thinking about the queen vs Sentry for early defence, both take no time away from worker production, sentries are 100 gas and 50 minerals. Would it be better if queens were more gas heavy or something? I realize that these units are very different, but as far as blocking ramps is concerned, what would make queens equal to the task as sentries?
On May 06 2011 09:15 Popss wrote: Ever since the BW days I've had a hard time listening to Idra talk about balance cause he always made it sound that the reason he was stuck on CJs B-team for 2 years was Terran imbalance rather then his own shortcomings as a player.
Which is why it annoys me that for once I think he's actually right ^^
This is so true. Normally what Idra says is has no merit because he is just complaining and he gives no or he is playing poorly, but what he said during sotg was completely true.
1) IdrA was really good and actually came close/actually did take games off of pros. 2) I think IdrA not playing on the A-team was a combination of there being some better koreans, the language barrier making practicing difficult, and the Korean elitism that made him more of a sideshow than a respected player on CJ.
I really think (and he showed) that he could compete at that level. He just never had his break through
Even if Idra is right (I agree with him), there just is no point into beating the dead horse that is sc2 balance. Bliz does things there own way, his whining won't bring any changes, and if zerg is unplayable or game design is broken beyond repair he should spend that time learning another race.
Wasn't the question brought up saying something along the lines of a build where you get about 4 or 5 queens out early for defense where they build up lots of energy and almost nothing can break them because you can just heal spam all of them. Kind of what protoss does with sentries. His response was "well if they don't do any early pressure it's a waste" It's kind of ironic because queens can spread creep constantly (think if you have 4 or 5 queens that are just there for creep spread) or when you end up pushing out with some of your bulkier units you can heal spam them. Plus they have a nice long range air attack which will always help out.
Hell, Queens are such an amazing unit, I'd rather just get 1 queen instead of the 6 zergling and 3 larva it takes. What if you just spammed drones from your larva and queens when you were able to. Queens will only get stronger the longer they sit out when they are able to stockpile energy and start bombing heals.
In conclusion Protoss is underpowered and has been since 2005 in Brood War, IdrA also complained about Terran being weak in BW and thus has no right to an opinion xD.
But seriously we should be assuming that the better player will win tournaments in general. So by that logic we can simply conclude that there are less great players playing Zerg than Protoss or Terran and that would account for the results. Less great Zerg players, especially from Europe where almost all great foreign players are from will be contributing to apparent Zerg weakness simply because there isn't that development of Zerg style that there is for P and T.
On May 07 2011 02:21 ComusLoM wrote: The main flaw with Idra's argument was that Zerg isn't winning tournaments anymore (not true regardless by any respect)
In conclusion Protoss is underpowered and has been since 2005 in Brood War, IdrA also complained about Terran being weak in BW and thus has no right to an opinion xD.
But seriously we should be assuming that the better player will win tournaments in general. So by that logic we can simply conclude that there are less great players playing Zerg than Protoss or Terran and that would account for the results. Less great Zerg players, especially from Europe where almost all great foreign players are from will be contributing to apparent Zerg weakness simply because there isn't that development of Zerg style that there is for P and T.
why are you talking about brood war, idra was talking about sc2 and that's a whole different game, therefore no one cares about brood war statistics. the only time they talked about bw was when they asked greg about his opionion + this was mostly a discussion about game design, balance was just a part of it
On May 06 2011 16:35 WillyReturnStroke wrote: I think Tyler had reason to be upset. IdrA said that both sides weren't explained, not just Team Liquid. This is true, EG's side wasn't explained either, but it should have be obvious that the statement made Team Liquid look bad. I think that Tyler may have gotten a little to heated but I'd be upset as well. Leaving out information is as bad as lying when it negatively portrays one side.
How is Colbi saying, TL was invited but they declined trying to make TL look bad? That is about as neutral as you can be. That was like 15 minutes of the argument was that Tyler was saying he shouldn't be neutral. Now what Tyler says actually has a negative approach to it, Saying that TL showed interest but EG wouldn't accommodate them.
I don't see how anyone could interpret what Colbi said as an attempt to make TL look bad.
I don't think you understand the point tyler was trying to make.
Think about it like if you were at a birthday party, and you don't see your friend John there. You ask the host "John isn't coming?". He responds "Oh i invited John but he decided not to come."
Wouldn't it be better if host said "John can't make it because his car broke down" if he knew the information why he wasn't coming?
It makes TL seem like dicks when you just say "we invited them but theyre not coming" without explaining why when you know the reason.
"John can't make it because he is in hospital being treated for an STI after his wife cheated on him"
Basically, its up to TL to share the reasons, not EG. If EG had given the reasons, and it had turned out that TL didn't want them shared then the shitstorm would have been much more massive than the current one.
If you feel that its on TL to share the reasons thats fine... thats completely respectable.... but that means that Colbi never should have posted the "We invited them but they declined" comment. Either he posts the full information or he doesn't post it all and lets someone from TL address it.
So I've noticed how much this thread has been going, and since SOTG aired on tuesday night, it's generated 151 pages which equals just about 3020 posts :o and it's only friday! Biggest response to a SOTG episode by fffaaaaarrrrrrrr
On May 07 2011 02:21 ComusLoM wrote: The main flaw with Idra's argument was that Zerg isn't winning tournaments anymore (not true regardless by any respect)
In conclusion Protoss is underpowered and has been since 2005 in Brood War, IdrA also complained about Terran being weak in BW and thus has no right to an opinion xD.
But seriously we should be assuming that the better player will win tournaments in general. So by that logic we can simply conclude that there are less great players playing Zerg than Protoss or Terran and that would account for the results. Less great Zerg players, especially from Europe where almost all great foreign players are from will be contributing to apparent Zerg weakness simply because there isn't that development of Zerg style that there is for P and T.
why are you talking about brood war, idra was talking about sc2 and that's a whole different game, therefore no one cares about brood war statistics. the only time they talked about bw was when they asked greg about his opionion + this was mostly a discussion about game design, balance was just a part of it
Idra stated that TvP is almsot imba for BW which is balantly false from pretty much every standard, the poster merely wanted people to know that Idra has been known to be super bias toward his race(like every pro, I mean every pro will say their race is weak).
@beefnoodle: Idra was never that good at BW compared to A-team koreans. If you haven't seen it, check our rakrul's post on Idra's interview after his loss to F91. Idra's mentality is his weakest point and that haven't changed since BW.
I'd be interested to see those stats at the end, with only 4 weeks it's not the best indication of anything, but it is interesting to see that Zerg's are actually having a higher win rate VS the rest of the races.
It's inconclusive, but it still goes contrary Idra's complaining (mind you, he verbatim claimed that Zerg is violently underpowered. Day9 told him: "I just don't believe that Zerg is somehow violently underpowered" and Idra responded: "But I'm telling you why they are.").
So....Zerg is underpowered and cannot win games in a fair manner. Except when nearly every single statistic shows zerg over 50% win vs protoss in every major tournament there has been in the past half a year.
This just strikes me a strange.....Zerg can't possibly win...except when they do, all the fucking time.
Seriously zerg players, just end the stupid bullshit crying.
What zerg is TRYING to say, is that they FEEL like they cannot win a game, the game FEELS hard to win.
I'd say that's a pretty good thing honestly....I'm not sure winning with protoss or terran is "easy" either.
I'd be interested to see those stats at the end, with only 4 weeks it's not the best indication of anything, but it is interesting to see that Zerg's are actually having a higher win rate VS the rest of the races.
It's inconclusive, but it still goes contrary Idra's complaining (mind you, he verbatim claimed that Zerg is violently underpowered. Day9 told him: "I just don't believe that Zerg is somehow violently underpowered" and Idra responded: "But I'm telling you why they are.").
Yes more data is need to get the overall picture, and yes we shouls wait for the end of NASL, but we can get an impression with this data.
No dicision can be made, but saying that this data proves that zerg is underpower is stupid. (ot any other race.) According to data the game seems balance. (not taking account player skill)
On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote: Getting an observer is far faster than a zerg getting OL speed or an overseer. The fact that anti-air units come later for zerg also means banshee all-ins are far more effective against zerg than protoss.
Lair after speed & queen is a similar timing to Protoss rushing straight to obs. That may or may not be viable, but it's certainly not far slower than obs rushing.
When zergs were complaining about these issues most simply deemed it as whining, yet here we are and the fact is they were right.
Uh, no. People have been calling Terran on steppes and close positions bullshit since forever. They're just as bullshit there for Protoss FYI.
Lair = 80 seconds + OL speed = 60 => 140 seconds
Robo = 65 seconds + Obs = 45 => 110 seconds + distance of map (cause overlords would probably already be in place)
We also need a core :0 Lair only requires a pool, which is same buildtime as gate. Tends to even out cos you want a queen first, but yeah.
So it seems pretty comparable I suppose. Though if you're rushing the robo I don't think you can reasonably get the lair that quickly. I'm not sure though.
I'm pretty sure a hard overseer build (lair immediately after pool) would be faster than anything toss can do, due to the core requirement.
You're kidding me right? Rushing Overseer is SUICIDE against everything except a dark templar or cloaked banshee rush. How is this even being compared??? Fact: 2-base Lair timing is not early enough to hold off a 4gate or Stargate all-in. This means that a lair rush in time to scout these must be off 1 base. Everyone knows a 1base lair MUST be followed with an all-in because if you try to expand off it you are so ridiculously far behind economically it's sad.
Similarly, a robotics rush is also a weak strategy for Protoss, but the fact remains that Protoss' defence is much stronger in the early game and such a scout rush is not required for their safety. If it was, they'd simply research hallucination.
On May 07 2011 02:18 SidianTheBard wrote: Wasn't the question brought up saying something along the lines of a build where you get about 4 or 5 queens out early for defense where they build up lots of energy and almost nothing can break them because you can just heal spam all of them. Kind of what protoss does with sentries. His response was "well if they don't do any early pressure it's a waste" It's kind of ironic because queens can spread creep constantly (think if you have 4 or 5 queens that are just there for creep spread) or when you end up pushing out with some of your bulkier units you can heal spam them. Plus they have a nice long range air attack which will always help out.
Hell, Queens are such an amazing unit, I'd rather just get 1 queen instead of the 6 zergling and 3 larva it takes. What if you just spammed drones from your larva and queens when you were able to. Queens will only get stronger the longer they sit out when they are able to stockpile energy and start bombing heals.
While I don't necessarily agree with how dismissive Idra's been of the Spanishiwa build or its variants (that's the mass queen business you're referring to), I don't think it invalidates his argument(s). When you make that many queens, yes, you're very well defended, but it puts you in a position where you can't apply much (if any) pressure back for a while, which gives your opponent free reign to do a lot of different things.
Something zerg somewhat relies on in the early-ish game (like between 6-10 minutes maybe) is having map control with speedlings, and it's really hard to get that with Spanishiwa's build. It lets your opponent cut corners defending their expansion(s) because they know that speedling harass won't be effective until a later timing, and that's a pretty big deal at a high level. You'll usually see Spanishiwa go with a super-heavy harass style once he gets his gas up, and that's because he essentially has to catch up to his opponent because they were able to just sit back and macro freely.
Basically, the Spanishiwa build puts the game in a sort of stalemate in the beginning of the game where both players are unable to do significant damage with aggression, and while some Zerg players might see that as a good thing, a player like Idra wants to be able to use his skills to outplay his opponent in the early game, not just stay even with them.
I don't remember what he said about it in the most recent episode, but in one of the previous ones where either Day9 or JP brought up Spanishiwa, Idra said that he'd messed around with the build and didn't really like it, at least in part for the reasons I've listed. I'm not sure if he tested it exhaustively enough to rule it out completely, but I sort of imagine that he at least messed with it enough to decide that he at the very least didn't like it.
I'd be interested to see those stats at the end, with only 4 weeks it's not the best indication of anything, but it is interesting to see that Zerg's are actually having a higher win rate VS the rest of the races.
It's inconclusive, but it still goes contrary Idra's complaining (mind you, he verbatim claimed that Zerg is violently underpowered. Day9 told him: "I just don't believe that Zerg is somehow violently underpowered" and Idra responded: "But I'm telling you why they are.").
Yes more data is need to get the overall picture, and yes we shouls wait for the end of NASL, but we can get an impression with this data.
No dicision can be made, but saying that this data proves that zerg is underpower is stupid. (ot any other race.) According to data the game seems balance. (not taking account player skill)
Player's skill level is even more subjective? How do we ever rate their skill level? By apm? By average unspent minerals? By what? The only real way to test skill difference is whether you win or lose that is actually the only way to objectively measure skill. Everyone can say "Idra play 3 times better than kiwi" but no one can prove it
On May 07 2011 02:18 SidianTheBard wrote: Wasn't the question brought up saying something along the lines of a build where you get about 4 or 5 queens out early for defense where they build up lots of energy and almost nothing can break them because you can just heal spam all of them. Kind of what protoss does with sentries. His response was "well if they don't do any early pressure it's a waste" It's kind of ironic because queens can spread creep constantly (think if you have 4 or 5 queens that are just there for creep spread) or when you end up pushing out with some of your bulkier units you can heal spam them. Plus they have a nice long range air attack which will always help out.
Hell, Queens are such an amazing unit, I'd rather just get 1 queen instead of the 6 zergling and 3 larva it takes. What if you just spammed drones from your larva and queens when you were able to. Queens will only get stronger the longer they sit out when they are able to stockpile energy and start bombing heals.
While I don't necessarily agree with how dismissive Idra's been of the Spanishiwa build or its variants (that's the mass queen business you're referring to), I don't think it invalidates his argument(s). When you make that many queens, yes, you're very well defended, but it puts you in a position where you can't apply much (if any) pressure back for a while, which gives your opponent free reign to do a lot of different things.
Something zerg somewhat relies on in the early-ish game (like between 6-10 minutes maybe) is having map control with speedlings, and it's really hard to get that with Spanishiwa's build. It lets your opponent cut corners defending their expansion(s) because they know that speedling harass won't be effective until a later timing, and that's a pretty big deal at a high level. You'll usually see Spanishiwa go with a super-heavy harass style once he gets his gas up, and that's because he essentially has to catch up to his opponent because they were able to just sit back and macro freely.
Basically, the Spanishiwa build puts the game in a sort of stalemate in the beginning of the game where both players are unable to do significant damage with aggression, and while some Zerg players might see that as a good thing, a player like Idra wants to be able to use his skills to outplay his opponent in the early game, not just stay even with them.
I don't remember what he said about it in the most recent episode, but in one of the previous ones where either Day9 or JP brought up Spanishiwa, Idra said that he'd messed around with the build and didn't really like it, at least in part for the reasons I've listed. I'm not sure if he tested it exhaustively enough to rule it out completely, but I sort of imagine that he at least messed with it enough to decide that he at the very least didn't like it.
After beating Mana last week in NASL, IdrA said in the post-game interview that one of the builds he used was a modified version of the Ice Fisher, so he hasn't completely dismissed it.
EPT
