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The problem with SC2 esports right now is that it's being run by 22-28 year olds. In most sports, guys who whine like Idra would be deemed an "immature rookie" and older players would put him in line. Even if older players got out of line, there would be 50-60 year old coaches and sportscasters who could put players in line or remind them of how to behave. Instead, players run the league. When players get out of line or say something untrue about the game, there is no check to keep the players in line.
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance? Could you imagine Alex Rodriguez actively participating in a Yankees forum and telling fans that they know nothing about baseball?
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport and people like Idra are just not going to listen to him. The argument between Tyler and InControl would never happen in a real professional sports setting. SC2 has a LOT of growing up to do... literally.
Imagine if the NFL were run by Rashard Mendenhall and Antonio Cromartie.
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On May 07 2011 02:44 CookieMaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 23:50 Yaotzin wrote:On May 06 2011 23:31 DoubleReed wrote:On May 06 2011 23:09 Yaotzin wrote:On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote:
Getting an observer is far faster than a zerg getting OL speed or an overseer. The fact that anti-air units come later for zerg also means banshee all-ins are far more effective against zerg than protoss. Lair after speed & queen is a similar timing to Protoss rushing straight to obs. That may or may not be viable, but it's certainly not far slower than obs rushing.
When zergs were complaining about these issues most simply deemed it as whining, yet here we are and the fact is they were right.
Uh, no. People have been calling Terran on steppes and close positions bullshit since forever. They're just as bullshit there for Protoss FYI. Lair = 80 seconds + OL speed = 60 => 140 seconds Robo = 65 seconds + Obs = 45 => 110 seconds + distance of map (cause overlords would probably already be in place) We also need a core :0 Lair only requires a pool, which is same buildtime as gate. Tends to even out cos you want a queen first, but yeah.
So it seems pretty comparable I suppose. Though if you're rushing the robo I don't think you can reasonably get the lair that quickly. I'm not sure though.
I'm pretty sure a hard overseer build (lair immediately after pool) would be faster than anything toss can do, due to the core requirement. You're kidding me right? Rushing Overseer is SUICIDE against everything except a dark templar or cloaked banshee rush. How is this even being compared??? Fact: 2-base Lair timing is not early enough to hold off a 4gate or Stargate all-in. This means that a lair rush in time to scout these must be off 1 base. Everyone knows a 1base lair MUST be followed with an all-in because if you try to expand off it you are so ridiculously far behind economically it's sad. Similarly, a robotics rush is also a weak strategy for Protoss, but the fact remains that Protoss' defence is much stronger in the early game and such a scout rush is not required for their safety. If it was, they'd simply research hallucination.
3 gate sentry expand dies pathetically to 1 base roach rush all in. Put that more into your game just like how toss players add 4 gate to their game to keep certain zerg/terran builds in check. Im just saying if one race is using an "cheese" to threaten certain build. Other race can also use cheese to keep that builds like sentry expand in check and trust me the timing of 1 base roach rush will kill 3 gate sentry expander because warp gate isn't done when the roaches get to the ramp and toss should have 2 sentry max and that is if he scoouts it way before and use chrono and gateway instead of warpgate which means warpgate is even more delayed. Work even better after patch.
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Player's skill level is even more subjective? How do we ever rate their skill level? By apm? By average unspent minerals? By what? The only real way to test skill difference is whether you win or lose that is actually the only way to objectively measure skill. Everyone can say "Idra play 3 times better than kiwi" but no one can prove it
Sorry, probably was my english, i did not take any side, day9 or idra, i do not know enough of the game.
Yes player skill is subjective, therefore it is difficult to use statistics to measure it.
But nasl does data cannot say that the game is balance and it will never say it. Although it can give a picture,
50% win ration for each race does not mean that the game is balance.
"Idra play 3 times better than kiwi" but no one can prove it
I belive that idra is better, but not by far.
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On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
The problem with SC2 esports right now is that it's being run by 22-28 year olds. In most sports, guys who whine like Idra would be deemed an "immature rookie" and older players would put him in line. Even if older players got out of line, there would be 50-60 year old coaches and sportscasters who could put players in line or remind them of how to behave. Instead, players run the league. When players get out of line or say something untrue about the game, there is no check to keep the players in line.
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance? Could you imagine Alex Rodriguez actively participating in a Yankees forum and telling fans that they know nothing about baseball?
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport and people like Idra are just not going to listen to him. The argument between Tyler and InControl would never happen in a real professional sports setting. SC2 has a LOT of growing up to do... literally.
Imagine if the NFL were run by Rashard Mendenhall and Antonio Cromartie.
Day9 is only 23 or something...
Comparing balance in a 1-year-old game to the rules of a 150-year-old sport is kind of silly, too.
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After beating Mana last week in NASL, IdrA said in the post-game interview that one of the builds he used was a modified version of the Ice Fisher, so he hasn't completely dismissed it.
Guess that's my punishment for missing that night. I don't have the pass for the VODs, do you have any more info about that game? I'm wondering if he opened mass queen blind (or what he scouted before doing it), what map/positions, what modifications he did, etc.
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance?
I don't think you want to start using professional athletes as examples for progamers to follow. Besides the fact that they do complain all the time about rule changes, like the late/dirty hit rules in the NFL, they also talk shit about other players/coaches/teams all the time. I think that esports in general has a much more friendly vibe than pro sports, which might just be because the stakes aren't as high.
It's important to remember that at the end of the day, all of the guys on SotG are friends, and if you don't get into passionate arguments with your friends, you're kind of weird, in my opinion.
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Maybe game is imbalanced, maybe it's not. Why do you (I'm talking to no specific user here) care? There is no player in the whole world who has ran out of things to improve.
I'd give feedback about the possible imbalances, discuss them perhaps, but in the end I'd go back to play the game and improve myself. If the game is imbalanced in the favor of my enemy then I'll just have to become better than him.
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On May 07 2011 02:58 ZessiM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
The problem with SC2 esports right now is that it's being run by 22-28 year olds. In most sports, guys who whine like Idra would be deemed an "immature rookie" and older players would put him in line. Even if older players got out of line, there would be 50-60 year old coaches and sportscasters who could put players in line or remind them of how to behave. Instead, players run the league. When players get out of line or say something untrue about the game, there is no check to keep the players in line.
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance? Could you imagine Alex Rodriguez actively participating in a Yankees forum and telling fans that they know nothing about baseball?
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport and people like Idra are just not going to listen to him. The argument between Tyler and InControl would never happen in a real professional sports setting. SC2 has a LOT of growing up to do... literally.
Imagine if the NFL were run by Rashard Mendenhall and Antonio Cromartie. Day9 is only 23 or something... Comparing balance in a 1-year-old game to the rules of a 150-year-old sport is kind of silly, too.
The point is to say that the game AND the players need to grow up. Yeah its a 1 year old game, and that's part of the problem.
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I feel like the whole point of Day[9] is that thinking there are imbalances in the game absolutely kills your motivation to play and improve. A much better attitude is to just ignore the notion that game is "unfair" and just think of it as a challenge to overcome.
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Idra wasnt realllyy talking about imbalance but just game design. Which could be called imbalance but it is really game design that doesnt let zerg scout early.
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On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
The problem with SC2 esports right now is that it's being run by 22-28 year olds. In most sports, guys who whine like Idra would be deemed an "immature rookie" and older players would put him in line. Even if older players got out of line, there would be 50-60 year old coaches and sportscasters who could put players in line or remind them of how to behave. Instead, players run the league. When players get out of line or say something untrue about the game, there is no check to keep the players in line.
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance? Could you imagine Alex Rodriguez actively participating in a Yankees forum and telling fans that they know nothing about baseball?
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport and people like Idra are just not going to listen to him. The argument between Tyler and InControl would never happen in a real professional sports setting. SC2 has a LOT of growing up to do... literally.
Imagine if the NFL were run by Rashard Mendenhall and Antonio Cromartie.
Soccer coaches argue with and insult referees all the time and then get banned from sitting on the bench for one game or so. This problem regularly crops up despite those coaches being pretty old men that should know better. 
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On May 07 2011 03:03 Greentellon wrote:
I feel like the whole point of Day[9] is that thinking there are imbalances in the game absolutely kills your motivation to play and improve. A much better attitude is to just ignore the notion that game is "unfair" and just think of it as a challenge to overcome.
The thing is that there's money and livelihoods on the line. It is unfair for a person to play handicapped for money. In that sense I understand why Idra is always calling out for changes.
For everyone else, thinking of it as a challenge should be the only attitude to take.
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On May 07 2011 03:08 thesideshow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 03:03 Greentellon wrote:
I feel like the whole point of Day[9] is that thinking there are imbalances in the game absolutely kills your motivation to play and improve. A much better attitude is to just ignore the notion that game is "unfair" and just think of it as a challenge to overcome. The thing is that there's money and livelihoods on the line. It is unfair for a person to play handicapped for money. In that sense I understand why Idra is always calling out for changes.
Players, as players, choose what race to play. As such the situation they enter the tournament in is not "unfair" or "handicapped" except by their own choice of race.
Blizzard cannot be held liable for any "imbalances" (percieved or real) that professional players attribute their losses to. Especially given that balancing a game across races, skill levels, countries and changing metagame playstyles requires careful analysis and methodic testing.
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On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport
Ya know Day9 is actually the younger brother? It seems like everyone assumes it's the other way around. And Artosis is older than them both. And WhiteRa is older than Artosis. But this is taking nothing away from the point of your post, which I think makes a good point.
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On May 07 2011 03:08 thesideshow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 03:03 Greentellon wrote:
I feel like the whole point of Day[9] is that thinking there are imbalances in the game absolutely kills your motivation to play and improve. A much better attitude is to just ignore the notion that game is "unfair" and just think of it as a challenge to overcome. The thing is that there's money and livelihoods on the line. It is unfair for a person to play handicapped for money. In that sense I understand why Idra is always calling out for changes. For everyone else, thinking of it as a challenge should be the only attitude to take.
People were playing brood war for money back in the day too, that's not a relevant argument. There were periods where certain races were dominant, just like right now (except that's not true, as Zerg's are performing well everywhere). Are you saying that changes should have been made during those periods?
Or would you agree that Brood War was handled properly in that almost no (if any) balance changes were made to the game after it's release, and that as time went on, meta-game changes occurred, strategies evolved, and builds emerged that eventually lead to a well balanced game.
If Brood War was handled properly, why is it a big deal right now?
Furthermore, to the camp of people saying that Idra is trying to discuss design, as I mentioned earlier--Idra explicitly said that he thinks Zerg is violently underpowered. He is speaking strictly towards balance, not design. He emphasized that throughout the discussion, what the hell?
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On May 07 2011 02:44 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:18 SidianTheBard wrote:
Wasn't the question brought up saying something along the lines of a build where you get about 4 or 5 queens out early for defense where they build up lots of energy and almost nothing can break them because you can just heal spam all of them. Kind of what protoss does with sentries. His response was "well if they don't do any early pressure it's a waste" It's kind of ironic because queens can spread creep constantly (think if you have 4 or 5 queens that are just there for creep spread) or when you end up pushing out with some of your bulkier units you can heal spam them. Plus they have a nice long range air attack which will always help out.
Hell, Queens are such an amazing unit, I'd rather just get 1 queen instead of the 6 zergling and 3 larva it takes. What if you just spammed drones from your larva and queens when you were able to. Queens will only get stronger the longer they sit out when they are able to stockpile energy and start bombing heals. While I don't necessarily agree with how dismissive Idra's been of the Spanishiwa build or its variants (that's the mass queen business you're referring to), I don't think it invalidates his argument(s). When you make that many queens, yes, you're very well defended, but it puts you in a position where you can't apply much (if any) pressure back for a while, which gives your opponent free reign to do a lot of different things.
Zerg can build 4+ Queens without doing a heavy Spine defense style. Spine Crawlers are a substitute for Speedling or Roach that allows you to defend for cheaper (--> more drones) but leaves you with few mobile units.
Is there a reason why Zerg couldn't, say, 13 Hatch 15 Pool --> gas --> 4 Queens & Zergling Speed?
Something zerg somewhat relies on in the early-ish game (like between 6-10 minutes maybe) is having map control with speedlings, and it's really hard to get that with Spanishiwa's build. It lets your opponent cut corners defending their expansion(s) because they know that speedling harass won't be effective until a later timing, and that's a pretty big deal at a high level. You'll usually see Spanishiwa go with a super-heavy harass style once he gets his gas up, and that's because he essentially has to catch up to his opponent because they were able to just sit back and macro freely.
Spanishiwa's 'Ice Fisher' ends up with a large economic advantage because he can build workers and use his natural much faster than a Protoss or Terran opponent. (Unless they FE, in which case he obviously doesn't need to pile up Spines so he can do the rest of his build faster.) It's the other player who has to play catchup on the economic front, while Spanishiwa catches up on tech.
Basically, the Spanishiwa build puts the game in a sort of stalemate in the beginning of the game where both players are unable to do significant damage with aggression, and while some Zerg players might see that as a good thing, a player like Idra wants to be able to use his skills to outplay his opponent in the early game, not just stay even with them.
Spanishiwa's build is basically a Zerg version of Forge FE. The skill in playing Forge FE is to build the least defense you possibly could without dying. Can Spanishiwa defend with N statics? Maybe Idra can defend the same threat with N-1 via better positioning, tighter timings, and superior game sense...
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On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance? Could you imagine Alex Rodriguez actively participating in a Yankees forum and telling fans that they know nothing about baseball?
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport and people like Idra are just not going to listen to him. The argument between Tyler and InControl would never happen in a real professional sports setting. SC2 has a LOT of growing up to do... literally.
Imagine if the NFL were run by Rashard Mendenhall and Antonio Cromartie.
The equivalent in sports to this type of thing really isn't as outlandish in professional sports as you seem to think. Lots of elders in the sport go public with their gripes with referees/umpires for instance. Age doesn't always make sports stars more mature (look at Terrell Owens, Barry Bonds, Milton Bradley, Randy Moss, etc.) either.
The difference lies in just how much money is involved in the game. The reason personalities like those listed above don't publicly state that the odds are stacked against them is because they have millions of dollars in endorsements, contracts, etc. on the line. Your starting to see this in SC2 to some extent as well, but every sport that I have followed has its badboy player with a large fan base of supporters in spite of how much $$ is on the line.
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Zerg can build 4+ Queens without doing a heavy Spine defense style. Spine Crawlers are a substitute for Speedling or Roach that allows you to defend for cheaper (--> more drones) but leaves you with few mobile units.
Is there a reason why Zerg couldn't, say, 13 Hatch 15 Pool --> gas --> 4 Queens & Zergling Speed?
They can (that's what I do when I run the build). If you're making enough speedlings to be intimidating in terms of harass potential, though, you're slightly defeating the purpose of the build, which is to primarily focus larvae on drones.
Spanishiwa's 'Ice Fisher' ends up with a large economic advantage because he can build workers and use his natural much faster than a Protoss or Terran opponent. (Unless they FE, in which case he obviously doesn't need to pile up Spines so he can do the rest of his build faster.) It's the other player who has to play catchup on the economic front, while Spanishiwa catches up on tech.
The problem is that you're behind on tech and units capable of attacking/harassing. You can catch up quickly because Zerg can build an army so quickly, yes, but you're still behind.
Spanishiwa's build is basically a Zerg version of Forge FE. The skill in playing Forge FE is to build the least defense you possibly could without dying. Can Spanishiwa defend with N statics? Maybe Idra can defend the same threat with N-1 via better positioning, tighter timings, and superior game sense...
I agree completely, which is why I said that I think Idra may have been a little too quick to dismiss it (though I apparently was wrong about that?).
I didn't mean to try to discredit Ice Fisher with my post, so if it sounded that way I apologize. I use it pretty often on maps where I'm leery about early aggression or stargate/banshee plays, it's helped my play a lot. I was trying to point out the flaws in it, but that's not to say it's a bad build, since if there was a build without flaws this would be a terrible game. I personally think that its flaws (especially the lack of map control and ability to harass early) are a little too severe to be the solution to what Idra's been complaining about.
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On May 07 2011 02:54 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:44 CookieMaker wrote:On May 06 2011 23:50 Yaotzin wrote:On May 06 2011 23:31 DoubleReed wrote:On May 06 2011 23:09 Yaotzin wrote:On May 06 2011 22:52 redux46 wrote:
Getting an observer is far faster than a zerg getting OL speed or an overseer. The fact that anti-air units come later for zerg also means banshee all-ins are far more effective against zerg than protoss. Lair after speed & queen is a similar timing to Protoss rushing straight to obs. That may or may not be viable, but it's certainly not far slower than obs rushing.
When zergs were complaining about these issues most simply deemed it as whining, yet here we are and the fact is they were right.
Uh, no. People have been calling Terran on steppes and close positions bullshit since forever. They're just as bullshit there for Protoss FYI. Lair = 80 seconds + OL speed = 60 => 140 seconds Robo = 65 seconds + Obs = 45 => 110 seconds + distance of map (cause overlords would probably already be in place) We also need a core :0 Lair only requires a pool, which is same buildtime as gate. Tends to even out cos you want a queen first, but yeah.
So it seems pretty comparable I suppose. Though if you're rushing the robo I don't think you can reasonably get the lair that quickly. I'm not sure though.
I'm pretty sure a hard overseer build (lair immediately after pool) would be faster than anything toss can do, due to the core requirement. You're kidding me right? Rushing Overseer is SUICIDE against everything except a dark templar or cloaked banshee rush. How is this even being compared??? Fact: 2-base Lair timing is not early enough to hold off a 4gate or Stargate all-in. This means that a lair rush in time to scout these must be off 1 base. Everyone knows a 1base lair MUST be followed with an all-in because if you try to expand off it you are so ridiculously far behind economically it's sad. Similarly, a robotics rush is also a weak strategy for Protoss, but the fact remains that Protoss' defence is much stronger in the early game and such a scout rush is not required for their safety. If it was, they'd simply research hallucination. 3 gate sentry expand dies pathetically to 1 base roach rush all in. Put that more into your game just like how toss players add 4 gate to their game to keep certain zerg/terran builds in check. Im just saying if one race is using an "cheese" to threaten certain build. Other race can also use cheese to keep that builds like sentry expand in check and trust me the timing of 1 base roach rush will kill 3 gate sentry expander because warp gate isn't done when the roaches get to the ramp and toss should have 2 sentry max and that is if he scoouts it way before and use chrono and gateway instead of warpgate which means warpgate is even more delayed. Work even better after patch.
Unless its a showmatch the people who you play(on ladder, for instance), won't know that you add cheese into your builds. They won't know that you sometimes 7rr and sometimes double expand before pool. Furthormore, people 7 roach rush tosses all the time, so the threat is certainly there.
Heck 3 sentry expand doesn't even die to a one base roach rush unless you react to it wrong(as with all cheeses/all ins.) As long as you don't expand against a one base zerg and fortify your ramp your safe, at the very least having to build a couple cannons at the cost of the zerg's economy.
On May 07 2011 03:05 raf3776 wrote:
Idra wasnt realllyy talking about imbalance but just game design. Which could be called imbalance but it is really game design that doesnt let zerg scout early.
When Idra says this he's exaggerating. For Zvt, it's extremely possible to get a good read on a player. For one, he drone scouts at like 15-16, which of course is going to hit a wall before a drone scout can get in. I agree on some maps its hard to get overlords positioned correctly, but there are a number of ways you can figure out what a player is going:
1.Are they constantly producing marines?
2.How many gas do they have(should have gotten that with drone scout, but Idra never does)
3.Any other tech structures?
Yes, a good terran will position a marine near the edge, but at the very least you can find out how much gas they have(if they haven't done it with drone scout already) as long as you don't head on rush in there.
In those cases where you can't find anything but see theres 2 gas, you know it's either banshees or blue flame hellions. In either case a combination of queens/spine crawlers can easily defend that with decent micro.
As for Zvp, its hardly an issue as well. What can they go? DT shrine? Stargate? Both of those require two gas, which you should be able to tell. Furthormore stalkers can't kill an overlord as fast as a marine(at least not get them out right away) so it usually is able to scout what exactly is happening. Simply getting an evo and placing a spore crawler at a ramp negates both dts and air. Hell, I saw Idra hold off a stargate first build with two queens and two spore crawlers, not building anything else. I've seen NesTea hold off a 4 gate when he only had one ling at the start.
Furthormore there are many other signs of what a toss is doing, such as what units are coming out of his gateways(gas heavy or not) which can help you decide.
Yes zerg has a little difficulty, but really it's not that much and I feel it's mainly a myth.
Day9 couldn't comment on it either so got demolished by Idra because Day9 doesn't play at a high level anymore.
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On May 07 2011 02:52 randplaty wrote:
The problem with SC2 esports right now is that it's being run by 22-28 year olds. In most sports, guys who whine like Idra would be deemed an "immature rookie" and older players would put him in line. Even if older players got out of line, there would be 50-60 year old coaches and sportscasters who could put players in line or remind them of how to behave. Instead, players run the league. When players get out of line or say something untrue about the game, there is no check to keep the players in line.
Could you imagine NFL players complaining about the rules or rule changes as much as SC2 players complain about balance? Could you imagine Alex Rodriguez actively participating in a Yankees forum and telling fans that they know nothing about baseball?
In SC2 Day9 is like one of the oldest people in the sport and people like Idra are just not going to listen to him. The argument between Tyler and InControl would never happen in a real professional sports setting. SC2 has a LOT of growing up to do... literally.
Imagine if the NFL were run by Rashard Mendenhall and Antonio Cromartie.
This is not an apt example at all, and i'd say you don't watch very much football if you say players don't complain about rules. There has been massive backlash in the NFL by defensive players complaining about all of the rule changes in the past few years, and you would see nonstop complaining about the rules if the league didn't clamp down so hard on player comments with fines.
At least in SC2 all the players are subject to the same(perceived or not) imbalance, unlike the NFL where fines are given out subjectively ( see James Harrison).
Your A-Rod comment is also off-base. A more apt comparison would be highschool ballplayers telling A-Rod not to complain about things in the MLB because they're doing fine on their high school team, and A-Rod saying that they aren't in a place to judge that.
Also you say things about "what if the players ruled the league", you do realize that the NFL is in a lockout right now(although by rumors it may be over soon) because the players and the owners can't agree on things... that seems like they have a pretty big damn influence.
The NFL and SC2 eSports scene have one thing truly in common, and that's that the most important thing to the scene are the players. I'd say its fair to recognize that they probably have a better grasp on the state of the game than we do.
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As for Zvp, its hardly an issue as well. What can they go? DT shrine? Stargate? Both of those require two gas, which you should be able to tell. Furthormore stalkers can't kill an overlord as fast as a marine(at least not get them out right away) so it usually is able to scout what exactly is happening. Simply getting an evo and placing a spore crawler at a ramp negates both dts and air. Hell, I saw Idra hold off a stargate first build with two queens and two spore crawlers, not building anything else. I've seen NesTea hold off a 4 gate when he only had one ling at the start.
DT rush
3 gate expand
3 gate pressure
Stargate
Blink stalkers
are the most standard builds i think. Most of them require completely different responses and if you dont respond to them perfectly you usually autolose. They can also take the gas just for show and 4 gate.
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EPT
