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On August 17 2010 04:33 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote:
IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup. Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website? Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
although I am siding with idra, this specific argument is invalid.
idra CHOOSES to participate in this event knowing that he is from far away and that latency issues will arise. He is well aware of this, he was not promised 100% smooth connection. This is something he will have to risk if he wishes to participate in US events (which I hope he will continue to)
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Calgary26004 Posts
I still don't feel like this issue is closed. Idra is at fault here and he's readily accepted the 2 PP for not allowing a caster, but I have seen no justification for the other 2 PP, nor the acceptance by BigT or ESL for the part they played in this situation.
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On August 17 2010 04:43 taLbuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 04:42 holynorth wrote:
ESL needs to rework how they handle staff abuse. It's a poor policy to have such toleration. Other gaming organizations have a no-toleration policy and ban any member, no matter how popular and important they are as soon as they insult/abuse staff. How about abuse of the players by staff (i.e caster)
It should be up to the organization to be responsible enough to have professional-acting staff. I agree though its a joke that the casters insult the gamers while casting.
But my opinion stands, most e-sport staff in all gaming organizations are volunteer. There should be no toleration for staff abuse, deserving or not.
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Can't the players play, send the demos to the casters after they've done a map, then cast the demos as they play the second map and so on ? This way casters dont lag progamers, idra doesnt whine and everyones happy?
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@ vyyye
So you put replay and livecast on the same level?
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Calgary26004 Posts
On August 17 2010 04:48 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 04:33 Tump wrote:On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote:
IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup. Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website? Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential. although I am siding with idra, this specific argument is invalid. idra CHOOSES to participate in this event knowing that he is from far away and that latency issues will arise. He is well aware of this, he was not promised 100% smooth connection. This is something he will have to risk if he wishes to participate in US events (which I hope he will continue to)
That's fair, but I have a feeling there was no discussion like "You will be required to allow BigT into your games" ahead of time. It seems like the rules were being made as they went.
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On August 17 2010 04:44 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 04:42 Kexx wrote:On August 17 2010 04:39 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
They still need to state which comment(s) warranted the second penalty or else it still seems like they're jsut trying to cover their asses. I'm like the biggest IdrA fan, but seriously, do you really doubt that IdrA didn't say anything bm? This isnt the issue, the issue is transparency I'm going to ignore the other thread and jsut post here. Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 04:42 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
The problem is when you run a points system it must be transparent, people must be able to look at the each and every point and be aware of why it was awarded. If it becomes the common understanding that the admins just throw points around based on their emotions people dont follow the rules anyway because they expect to get points if they do or do not follow the rules. IT's important for them to state which comments warranted the penalty for this sense of transparency. If they do not state clearly which comments warranted the additional points it will still seem as if they're just trying to cover their asses from the initial comments posted by their admins which travis quoted in the last page.
indeed.. they need to tell all of it,
if you got nothing to hide, you tell. stating that you don't tell to avoid flaming of either side is jsut not legit
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On August 17 2010 04:44 Last Romantic wrote:
Imposing avoidable latency on a progamer is really the organizers' fault. I have to side with IdrA here.
yeah, it sounds really unprofessional actually to force that on the players just because it says you can in the rules. you could just as easily cast replays of it to avoid lag and give the audience a chance to view the games. it also seems fallacious to assume what idra's intention are and kick him out of the tournament because of it. i don't know the whole situation but to me it sounds like an administrative problem.
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On August 17 2010 04:46 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 04:45 eckolove wrote:On August 17 2010 04:33 Tump wrote:On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote:
IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup. Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website? Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential. and where is the interest of the sponsor? the company give money to the stream show his brand.. so no cast = no show for the company no show = no more money for Esports no money = GO BACK TO SC1 !! Razer sponsored the KotB, all games were casted in replay format. No games were casted live and it worked out fine.
To be fair, the KotB was a special case because there was no other way to deliver the games at release time because starcraft 2 was not up.
I would agree that for serious shows, if that games are to be broadcasted, they need to be broadcasted live. If lag from an obs/caster is a potential problem, there needs to be backup plans in place by the tournament staff, e.g., a secondary obs/caster that can fill in.
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On August 17 2010 04:42 Kexx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 04:39 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
They still need to state which comment(s) warranted the second penalty or else it still seems like they're jsut trying to cover their asses. I'm like the biggest IdrA fan, but seriously, do you really doubt that IdrA didn't say anything bm?
No, I am the biggest IdrA fan.
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On August 17 2010 04:49 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
@ vyyye
So you put replay and livecast on the same level?
It's practically the same thing for the audience, so yes. If you still think it's a bit of a sacrifice you should keep in mind that this guarantees the best latency possible for the players.
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This is being dramatized a bit after-the-fact. Nonetheless, criticizing ESL's presentation is one thing, but lambasting their rules--or, rather, implying that rules can be bent because they "go against the spirit of Starcraft" is nonsense. The community and competitive gaming organizations alike do need to treat endeavors more professionally and seriously. It seems, from this post, ESL is trying to at least do this.
It was an American Cup and idrA knew the rules when he signed up for it. Sports players may hate playing in cold/hot weather, listening to annoying horns, or biased referees. Considering professional athletes often get penalized by the NFL, what I would argue the most professional of the franchises, one can infer etiquette is quite important. I'm not trying to get on any sort of holier-than-thou rant here, but it baffles me that people aren't taking the future of the competitive scene into considering before launching into their vitriolic diatribes.
Specifically, I"m referencing posts like this:
On August 17 2010 04:33 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 04:18 midway wrote:
IdrA situation
The second issue regarded IdrA, specifically. IdrA was informed for his second match that he would be casted on the stream made available to fans. Many have made a point that it’s silly to “force casting” but again even with replays fans should be allowed to watch any match. IdrA has chosen to take part in a tournament intended for American players from Korea. As a citizen of the USA this is his right, but he also must deal with the latency issues involved with this decision and the rules that allow casters and admins to spectate matches. The rules specifically state a player must allow admins and casters to spectate a match if requested and those rules were available before IdrA entered the Cup. Regardless or not of the rule, I think this is a bit over the top. Forcing IdrA to have spectators in game and cause latency is harmful to the players. It doesn't allow them to perform at peak levels. Not having a player play at his full potential is a bit dumb. It's against the very spirit of ESPORTS.I assume the ESL people running the show are gamers. What if you were in IdrA's shoes? Do you really think it's fair for a top tier player (mind you, the only westerner on a Korean progaming team) to be put at a disadvantage because you just want more hits for your website? Please, find another set of players to cast. Let progamers play at their full potential.
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Sounds fair enough.
So tonight IdrA won't be playing and Bubba will be playing in his stead?
What about StrifeCro? Did he get DQ?
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Don't know nobody ever discussed whats happening to StrifeCro I think it's good though hopefully they're actually discussing and thinking through the decision looking at the evidence etc.
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In cases like this you really start to appreciate kespa
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IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen 
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On August 17 2010 04:53 Necrosjef wrote:
Sounds fair enough.
So tonight IdrA won't be playing and Bubba will be playing in his stead?
What about StrifeCro? Did he get DQ?
StrifeCro was informed by the admins last night and was DQ. He was aware of the situation and was not given PP because it was poor communication between the players and not malice on either side.
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idra such a baller BM'ing admins lololol
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Calgary26004 Posts
On August 17 2010 04:55 Deadlyfish wrote:IdrA insulted other people? I think I can safely say we're all shocked such a thing could happen
My problem is that we haven't seen any evidence of it. I have no doubt Idra insulted the admins; however, seeing if he did it unprovoked or after being told he was going to be disqualified are two wildly different situations. Considering ESL refuses to post the comments after being asked time and time again, I would tend to believe it was the latter.
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3.6.3 Player Responsibility
Players cannot refuse to have their matches broadcast, nor can they choose in what manner the match itself will be broadcast. The player agrees to make sufficient accommodation so that broadcasting of matches can take place.
That's fair, but I have a feeling there was no discussion like "You will be required to allow BigT into your games" ahead of time. It seems like the rules were being made as they went.
Why is there a need to discuss what is already in the rules?
Loved BiggerT btw
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EPT
