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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On August 17 2010 01:01 Kashll wrote: If AKM is the same AKM I played in SC2 who is like 700 diamond, I got seriously BMed by him. As in like all caps typing as he tried to 6 rax reaper me :p AKM always uses caps so it was either him or an impersonator. It probably was the real one though. | ||
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Sadist
United States7229 Posts
On August 17 2010 00:56 Fantistic wrote: I've never cheesed because it's not viable against good players. If you try to cheese versus top players, this is what will happen: 1) Early game, your cheese tactic will fail because you'll get outsmarted and outplayed. 2) The game will then move on to mid game and you'll be behind because you've chosen a weak economic opening. 3) You'll get outmacroed because you never gave yourself a chance to win mid-late game in the first place because you went all-in early with no safety net if the cheese fails. Why do macro players need to be punished for playing the game properly? The only way to climb the ladder from being a weak player to a much stronger player is to practice macro in the mid-late game. You'll learn nothing by cheesing. The only times you'd want to cheese are if you're, a casual gamer who's playing for a fun and doesn't care about improving or, a top player who's bored of trying and is playing cheesy for fun without any incentive of winning because it most likely won't work anyway. Or you are practicing a specific build order to use later. "Macro" players can cheese as well such as blindly expanding and not making turrets or cannons or whatever and just hoping that their opponent doesnt attack or realize their timings or whatever. It goes both ways. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On August 17 2010 00:29 Snowfield wrote: The best way to improve your early game multitasking is to cheese in my opinion. TO proxy and multi task back at your base and macro at the same time while microing early attack forces that are 100% reliant on your micro is something newer players just don't know how to do, cheesing fairly often will improve your multitasking when you are on the aggressive in every game. May be true, but you're learning a false way to handle the early game if you later on try to play a more solid build. Besides, you don't learn how to macro correctly and how to transition from the early into mid- and lategame. Of course you may get better at cheesing if you cheese a lot, but those strategies just won't work against good players, at least most of the times and good players only splash in cheese because they know the opponent won't expect them to. At lower levels, cheesing occurs naturally, because ppl aren't able to multitask, react to different situations and macro correctly for longer games, but the more experience you get, the more it is necessary to not just cheese and win after 5 minutes or loose the game. It's all abaout learning to play a solid build if you wanna get good at Starcraft2, cheesing is sth every noob can do, Macro-games are a different story. But plz: Cheese as much as you wan't, if I loose to you I know it was my fault and I'll have learnt sth, which is sth the ppl cheesing can't say for themselves... ^^' | ||
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PokePill
United States1048 Posts
On August 16 2010 22:40 GTR wrote: any videos of akm beating actual legit players? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=36446#5 Show some respect for greatest player to grace the US servers of War3. AKM has beaten HUNDREDS of top players, ranging from Grubby (early TFT), Sonkie, Boo, etc. http://akm.zergs.com/fourm/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=1912 http://akm.zergs.com/fourm/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=1915 http://akm.zergs.com/fourm/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=1917 AKM has worked a FULL time job supporting his family the entire way, so yea he may not have 200 apm but he is a very talented player and has always been extremely manner. Also, he is one of the original founders of Clan x17, the greatest brood war clan to ever exist. | ||
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SolHeiM
Sweden1264 Posts
On August 16 2010 23:33 sleepingdog wrote: on top level cheesing does not work Of course it does. I remember seeing in the SC2 World Cup or w/e that the chinese people ran (17173.com I think) and there was a Zerg that sixpooled, and won his game. Do not say that cheese doesn't work on top level, because that's simply not true. | ||
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Sadist
United States7229 Posts
On August 17 2010 01:14 PokePill wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=36446#5 Show some respect for greatest player to grace the US servers of War3. AKM has beaten HUNDREDS of top players, ranging from Grubby (early TFT), Sonkie, Boo, etc. http://akm.zergs.com/fourm/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=1912 http://akm.zergs.com/fourm/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=1915 http://akm.zergs.com/fourm/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=1917 AKM has worked a FULL time job supporting his family the entire way, so yea he may not have 200 apm but he is a very talented player and has always been extremely manner. Also, he is one of the original founders of Clan x17, the greatest brood war clan to ever exist.  | ||
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Dagon
Romania264 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On August 17 2010 01:17 SolHeiM wrote: Of course it does. I remember seeing in the SC2 World Cup or w/e that the chinese people ran (17173.com I think) and there was a Zerg that sixpooled, and won his game. Do not say that cheese doesn't work on top level, because that's simply not true. But in Bo3's or Bo5's or whatever, there is a whole other component to cheesing compared to just cheesing in the Ladder, and that's a psychological component. If you cheese Game1, the opponent might play very carefully in the other games, not risking anything, which will give you an advantage if you play standard. Or you might play standard 2 games in a row and then cheese in the third game when the opponent doesn't expect it etc. That's just completely different from bad players cheesing in the Ladder because they can't play anything else.... | ||
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DeLoAdEr
Japan527 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
 You managed to talk about something that has been discussed to death while bringing something new and interesting to it | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
That game is a nice example. The end game looked to me like when i played the last mission in Single player haha, blocking with buildings and bunch of tanks :D. | ||
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holy_war
United States3590 Posts
It would be great for a player to play an unorthodox style everygame until their name becomes known in the community. | ||
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Job
United States25 Posts
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On August 17 2010 01:05 Sadist wrote: Or you are practicing a specific build order to use later. "Macro" players can cheese as well such as blindly expanding and not making turrets or cannons or whatever and just hoping that their opponent doesnt attack or realize their timings or whatever. It goes both ways. Playing blindly is just playing badly by failing to scout: not cheese. | ||
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PacketOverflow
United States80 Posts
On August 17 2010 00:56 Fantistic wrote: I've never cheesed because it's not viable against good players. If you try to cheese versus top players, this is what will happen: 1) Early game, your cheese tactic will fail because you'll get outsmarted and outplayed. 2) The game will then move on to mid game and you'll be behind because you've chosen a weak economic opening. 3) You'll get outmacroed because you never gave yourself a chance to win mid-late game in the first place because you went all-in early with no safety net if the cheese fails. Why do macro players need to be punished for playing the game properly? The only way to climb the ladder from being a weak player to a much stronger player is to practice macro in the mid-late game. You'll learn nothing by cheesing. The only times you'd want to cheese are if you're, a casual gamer who's playing for a fun and doesn't care about improving or, a top player who's bored of trying and is playing cheesy for fun without any incentive of winning because it most likely won't work anyway. Macro players should absolutely be punished for trying to play a strong macro game from the get-go. The point of this thread isn't that you should cheese more all around, but that it's completely acceptable in BO3/5/7s just like any bluff or mindgame gimmick in poker. If you see X top player cheese Y top player you shouldn't get upset at X player for cheesing. He choose to take a gamble not only for an easy win, but to throw off the other player, hurting him in later games when he scales back his builds for a more cautious style of play. It also boosts a player's unpredictability. Y player will be less likely to bank on one or two game plans if he knows that X player is capable of almost anything. This increases the chance that he'll make a mistake in further matches. Yes cheesing random players on ladder doesn't gain you anything but a free win/loss, but in a BO3/5/7 where you have to face the opponent multiple times, gambles can pay off and the psychological damage it can cause is significant. Thus, cheese is perfectly fine and acceptable in tournaments. | ||
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yejin
France493 Posts
On August 16 2010 22:36 FuRong wrote: Wow, AKM actually has fans? Unbelievable. I always disliked this guy, along with anyone else who plays the game for the sole reason of being as irritating as possible and wasting people's time. This isn't even cheese, it's turtling at it's absolute worst. He's no better than the idiots who tower up and mass Raiders to try and run in and kill your main (there used to be a lot back in the day) The great thing about SC or SC2 is that you can't really pull this kind of thing off because static defense walls can be easily broken lategame. If you mass Cannons in your main then your opponent can just contain you and expand all over the map, then blow you to pieces with Tanks/Cruisers/Carriers/Broodlords. Writing GTFO in the middle of the map with Pylons while doing so is an added bonus... Wow your comment brought memories. I lost to that strategy in the very early days of wc3, several times ! Right clicking my building with waves of raiders =(( Dunno why this strat disappeared, maybe I got better =) | ||
CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
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yejin
France493 Posts
On August 17 2010 01:50 Job wrote: who were the other players that were in AKM's posse. I remember they all had capital letter names and weird/funny names like akm's in the clan KOR iirc. As well as being fairly good players even if they did cheese mostly. WHEELS ON WAGON afaik, he also was a FFA player. | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On August 17 2010 01:01 Sadist wrote: The problem then becomes how you define cheese  Yeah, that is definitely one of the issues involved. I think early all in strategies are generally what I define as cheese. For example early banshee with cloak, or early void ray I don't really see as such because they are much more stable builds from which you can transition into the rest of the game. I suppose you CAN play after 6 pooling or something, but at best if you don't win you've probably just "reset" the game. Eh, its pretty subjective to begin with. | ||
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Elderbury
United States10 Posts
Given that perspective, cheese is no less/more legitimate than any other approach. A win is a win. One might argue that cheese requires less skill than a macro/micro intensive game, any they'd be correct. But ladder rankings aren't based on skill. They're based on win/loss records. So, so long as they're not using map hacks or cheating, whatever strategy wins the match was the right strategy for that game. Guerrilla warriors don't directly engage their enemies, but use stealth, surprise, and hit and run tactics to engage their enemies. Is it "unfair" that they should refuse to directly face their enemies on an open field? They do what they can in order to achieve their objectives. In my mind, cheese is just another form of guerrilla warfare. | ||
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