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Sadist
United States7229 Posts
On August 17 2010 01:51 Fantistic wrote: Playing blindly is just playing badly by failing to scout: not cheese. yes it is. Ill give an example from bw. Protoss blindly double expos off 1 gate goon twice without having an idea if I 2 fact or not. If i go fact cc im behind bad as the terran player if i make turrets incase hes going dt or reaver or something. It happened all the time. | ||
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Anxiety
United States650 Posts
On August 17 2010 01:52 PacketOverflow wrote: Macro players should absolutely be punished for trying to play a strong macro game from the get-go. The point of this thread isn't that you should cheese more all around, but that it's completely acceptable in BO3/5/7s just like any bluff or mindgame gimmick in poker. If you see X top player cheese Y top player you shouldn't get upset at X player for cheesing. He choose to take a gamble not only for an easy win, but to throw off the other player, hurting him in later games when he scales back his builds for a more cautious style of play. It also boosts a player's unpredictability. Y player will be less likely to bank on one or two game plans if he knows that X player is capable of almost anything. This increases the chance that he'll make a mistake in further matches. Yes cheesing random players on ladder doesn't gain you anything but a free win/loss, but in a BO3/5/7 where you have to face the opponent multiple times, gambles can pay off and the psychological damage it can cause is significant. Thus, cheese is perfectly fine and acceptable in tournaments. ... Such as BoxeR's triple bunker rush. I see the benefits of cheesing, but you gain much less practice/skill cheesing then macroing. The thing that is most annoying is when your on a 2v2 and they double cheese/all in you (cannon rush+proxy 4 gate, still won with rauders) | ||
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djWHEAT
United States925 Posts
On August 16 2010 23:38 a_monkey wrote: if ladder matches were BO3 then cheesing wouldn't be so bad. but since you're playing random players in a BO1, cheese can almost guarantee a normal w/l ratio. i personally like to play more fair games against stronger players. it helps me gauge how well my macro is coming along, and often times helps to show me how i can improve n such The thought of ladder matches being BO3 is actually awesome. Would definitely make for some interesting changes on how people would play. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games. Ergo: Cheesing is for noobs and pro's only use it to F with your mind in a Bo3 or higher... What AKM did with WC3 wasn't cheesing, he just played unorthodox strategies, you cannot compare this to random 6-pooling, cannon-rushing, proxy-gating/raxing etc. in either SC:BW or SC2. cheesing is a way to keep greedy eco builds in check and punish players for skimping too much on early units. The option adds a great dynamic to the game and keeps every game from being fast expo EVERY game. Well executed cheeses, especially in series matches, are a boon to the game. Decrying them as "nooby" is unfair as it makes the game far more variable and exciting | ||
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Roqu
United States26 Posts
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
On August 17 2010 02:17 djWHEAT wrote: The thought of ladder matches being BO3 is actually awesome. Would definitely make for some interesting changes on how people would play. Yea if it was Bo3 you could easily guesstimate at hand if another cheese was coming. Which is why I enjoy playing Bo3 as a_monkey said, it helps me understand mistakes I have made and be able to apply that to the next game. | ||
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EppE
United States221 Posts
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games. Ergo: Cheesing is for noobs and pro's only use it to F with your mind in a Bo3 or higher... What AKM did with WC3 wasn't cheesing, he just played unorthodox strategies, you cannot compare this to random 6-pooling, cannon-rushing, proxy-gating/raxing etc. in either SC:BW or SC2. This is how I look at it. If you 6 pool me in ladder you just want to get a win. You aren't trying to get better. Same with a cannon rush. I hate it, it pisses me off. However if I'm going to bet better at SC2 I need to learn potential counters to it. If I'm going for a 15 FE then I am being just as risky as the guy who 6 pools me. | ||
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Asdkmoga
United States496 Posts
Reason i hate this kind of cheese though, cause unlike AKM, this strategty (cannon rushing 6 pooling etc) a monkey could do, and in no way shows he is better than me and deserved the win. go ahead, be annoying, drop alot, turtle up, mix it up and throw them off their game, but a build order a 4th grader could perfect in a couple of tries is stupid. | ||
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silencesc
United States464 Posts
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games. Ergo: Cheesing is for noobs and pro's only use it to F with your mind in a Bo3 or higher... What AKM did with WC3 wasn't cheesing, he just played unorthodox strategies, you cannot compare this to random 6-pooling, cannon-rushing, proxy-gating/raxing etc. in either SC:BW or SC2. I don't understand this. Everyone who sits in their ivory towers and says that cheesing is for the lowly noob classes is either one of IdrA's 50 accounts here, or someone who raged at one too many cheeses and lost. Cheesing is part of the game, if people want to cheese, there is no rule that says they can't. C'mon people, deal with it. Scout it early and you'll probably win anyway. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
On August 17 2010 01:01 Sadist wrote: The problem then becomes how you define cheese  We use TL's definition "Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted. " Anyway, cheese winning is sooo fun lol, oh the rage after a double proxy reaper rush in a 2v2 <3 | ||
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Ronald_McD
Canada807 Posts
I see no problem with throwing in the occasional cheese, especially because it's just so damn funny when somebody's raging at for cheesing them. | ||
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Roqu
United States26 Posts
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chekthehek
United States279 Posts
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latan
740 Posts
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
That's the way I see it. Also, if you want to practice multi-tasking, try cheese. Micro builds keep macro builds in check. | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
as far as playing like AKM, check out the silver league. that's what it looks like. there is a reason those strats don't work at high levels | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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Clearout
Norway1060 Posts
 And cheesing is a good way keeping players honest. Ive has several great games where people have 6 pooled or 7 rax reapered me  Also I would love to have a bo3 option when I play ladder. | ||
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whatami
46 Posts
TLDR Cheese is another valuable tactic in the great game of sc2 that makes it so everything has to be carefully measured and figured out. | ||
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