I did read every “cheese” or “cheesing” thread just to make sure I have something new to add.
I don’t understand this aversion players have to “cheesing”? I read thread after thread new players saying “I don’t want to cheese to win”. What?!?! Seems everyone has a slightly different idea what cheese is but most would consider Mass void rays, Bunker contains, 7 pool + spine crawler rush, Cannon rushing ETC = cheese.
But I can’t think of a good reason NOT to “cheese” occasionally. You know the risks. Why make up additional rules for the game? The game already has all the rules in place. Use them and abuse them. Anything that throws your opponent off kilter is good, annoying is good, easy wins are good. Not to mention you learn a lot when your cheese fails miserable.
Idra gets annoyed when he get cheesed but what does he expect? Players know he is a macro monster, why would other players play into his strengths? If he was never cheesed think of the monster economy build he would probably go for.
Yes cheesing will only take you so far but to never cheese is also limiting yourself IMHO. Players who go for that HUGE economy need to be punished. As I get better I find myself “cheesing” less and less. But occasionally I just get a feeling about a player and think “a 7 pool will probably the last thing this guy expects” and more often than not I’m correct. Maybe it’s like calling a bluff in poker, you have to once in awhile just to keep the other players honest.
Most SC players have probably never heard of Angry Korea Man (AKM) a WC3 player. He was probably the last name you ever wanted to see in the loading screen because you knew the game was going to be at least an hour long, probably two. He played human and would immediately tower up. He also picked the then rarely used Blood Mage. The Blood Mage has this annoying spell called Flame Strike (and Mana Siphon). He would flame strike any siege you rolled in to take down the towers, so early siege simply didn’t work. This often forced players totally out of their game plan, AKM would then just mass up the perfect counter to whatever they built all the while doing annoying hit and run attacks (like invis-a-morters and stuff). I loved watching AKM replays. My point is that guy had no rules except to win (and annoy the other player). The very top players could beat him but they had to work. I saw AKM beat some impressive players, and I don’t think his micro was anywhere near as good as some of the player he beat.
Personally I would love to create an AKM inspired Zerg strategy as unique and annoying. You could almost call it a strategy based on cheese. I don’t know if an AKM strategy is possible in SC2 because map control and static defense is so different (which is a good thing, I had some serious gripes with WC3). Well that’s my thought on cheesing. Agree? Disagree? And if anyone thinks of an AKM inspired strategy for Zerg I’m all ears!
BTW I found a WC3 video of AKM in action if anyone is interested. Part 1 Part 2 Part 3
Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games.
Ergo: Cheesing is for noobs and pro's only use it to F with your mind in a Bo3 or higher...
What AKM did with WC3 wasn't cheesing, he just played unorthodox strategies, you cannot compare this to random 6-pooling, cannon-rushing, proxy-gating/raxing etc. in either SC:BW or SC2.
AKM was awesome but he didn't really play unorthodox strategies, he played a unorthodox strategy. I've never seen him do anything but Blood Mage and towering up (except for some tinker rush in a 2v2).
Is this the only AKM VOD on youtube? I'm glad you posted since I haven't seen him in a long time but this was an AWFUL game by both players and an awful commentator :S
This must have been in the early days of AKM, he's usually a lot better than this.
edit- The best game I ever saw of AKM was on Two Rivers, he used flamestrike to make a hole in the trees next to his opponents base and dropped the Bloodmage + Archmage in there using a Zeppelin, the opponent couldn't do anything with no air units early game ^_^
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games. SC2.
In the long run it won't improve your game, but don't say constantly cheesing won't improve your micro lol, that's just silly. If you'd cheese all day long 24/7 you'd have the timings in your head the positions for proxies, map knowledge etc. It's just that people cheese when they lose a lot and want some free wins, but don't say it's for noobs. PROS did it, in BW in WC3 and they'll do it in SC2.
And sometimes cheeses produce the best games ever, fun to watch.
What I don't like is "all in" cheese. If you can transition out of it into something else and keep playing if it fails, then I'm fine with it. All in stuff though just makes for games that are boring, win or lose, in my opinion. I'm to the point now where cheese usually doesn't kill me, (sometimes it does still), but it isn't the winning/losing from it that I care about so much as that it just sort of cheapens the experience.
Whatever, though, I'm no pro, I don't play to become a pr. I care about improving at the game but mostly just feel cheated out of mid and late game learning experience when someone tries an early all in.
I always disliked this guy, along with anyone else who plays the game for the sole reason of being as irritating as possible and wasting people's time. This isn't even cheese, it's turtling at it's absolute worst. He's no better than the idiots who tower up and mass Raiders to try and run in and kill your main (there used to be a lot back in the day)
The great thing about SC or SC2 is that you can't really pull this kind of thing off because static defense walls can be easily broken lategame. If you mass Cannons in your main then your opponent can just contain you and expand all over the map, then blow you to pieces with Tanks/Cruisers/Carriers/Broodlords. Writing GTFO in the middle of the map with Pylons while doing so is an added bonus...
Cheesing in starcraft is the equivalent of getting into a fight and kicking your opponent in the nuts, sure there's no "rules" against it, but it's cheap so people frown upon it. If you feel like taking down a larger opponent by catching them off guard than that's your perogative, if you couldn't have beaten them any other way then why not?
On August 16 2010 22:36 FuRong wrote: Wow, AKM actually has fans? Unbelievable.
I always disliked this guy, along with anyone else who plays the game for the sole reason of being as irritating as possible and wasting people's time. This isn't even cheese, it's turtling at it's absolute worst. He's no better than the idiots who tower up and mass Raiders to try and run in and kill your main (there used to be a lot back in the day)
The great thing about SC or SC2 is that you can't really pull this kind of thing off because static defense walls can be easily broken lategame. If you mass Cannons in your main then your opponent can just contain you and expand all over the map, then blow you to pieces with Tanks/Cruisers/Carriers/Broodlords. Writing GTFO in the middle of the map with Pylons while doing so is an added bonus...
Hell yes.
Towers are such an obnoxious thing to deal with in Wc3... incredible.
For new players, cheesing doesn't allow you to practice your macro, which is the true differentiation between the skill tiers. Learn to cheese after you've built up solid macro skills.
I could run 5000 times around my house for better fitness; will I do that? no, I just run out of my hometown through a small forest which is my usual 15km-running-path and really relaxing and fun; since my connection is currently very unstable, I'm afraid of playing ladder and stick with custom-games (don't feel like getting demoted due to disconnects after going 5:0 placement without problems); if my opponent tries to cheese I either pull through when I think he's a noob or immediately gg; I don't see any point in this; for me the definition of cheesing would be a potentially sucessful strategy that uses flaws in the gamedesign to win in a way you are not supposed to; like in first person shooters where somebody camps around in a completely irrelevant corner to shoot you in the back when you run by; there are noobs who never win any games and occasionally think "screw it" and cheese to win for once; they are excused; but I think it's extremely sad how someone with a pretty decent understanding of the game would intentionally play the game in an annoying way making it the most frustrating experience for his opponent; with the only goal being a) winning and b) molesting others this is basicly what I expect from people who develop internet viruses, e-mail-spamming-tools and such stuff
if ladder matches were BO3 then cheesing wouldn't be so bad. but since you're playing random players in a BO1, cheese can almost guarantee a normal w/l ratio. i personally like to play more fair games against stronger players. it helps me gauge how well my macro is coming along, and often times helps to show me how i can improve n such
If you're playing in tournaments, then learning some early game cheese is good. But for the 95% of sc2 players who only play ladder, I don't see how cheesing will be more beneficial than playing a macro game
Cheesing can be so much fun sometimes, especially if your opponent starts BMing you :D
Like i CS when I would be protecting the hostages and just collect them all and hide with all of them in some dark corner and camp there until either time ran out or they came one by one (because they need to find me until time runs out so they spread) and you win :D
I play randonm which lends itself being really good to cheesing.
I rarely cheese however. They only cheese I performed in the last 3 weeks was against a zerg player on steppes where I 7 pool crawler rushed him and it worked perfectly. The next game (same player, ironically) I went for a fast VR on oasis as PvZ against his ~16-20 hatch preparing for a fast expo and I just beat him straght up because he wasn't prepared (?!?!)
The point is that cheese does have it's place. It keeps your opponents honest and prevents them from doing builds that die instantly to cheese and can't transition to beat it but can survive normal early-game pushes.
And that's the reason why I don't believe cheese is inherently a bad thing. It keeps players honest, and prevents macro "cheese". Some FE builds can very much be all-ins if your opponent coutners them correctly, after all.
AKM is wellknown. I've followed his career quite a while now. I just loved him :D
On August 16 2010 23:40 wishbones wrote: Sorry if this has been posted before but.. whats wc3? that crappy game that tried to be good? or ..
i always said if they removed heroe's and creeping wc3 would have been almost if not just as good a game as sc.
Wc3 was a great game. But well everyone has different opinons. You should ateast try it out before making any conclusions. And obviously you cant compare Wc3 and SC:BW because well...they really arent that similar to each others except the RTS genre itself.
Someone asked if there's any videos of AKM beating good and known players. Well I know there is, but digging through times years back is not really that easy. I found these (Not videos, its replays from version 1.20 and 1.21 so watching them is gonna be hard (PM me if you really want to) but you can read the comments):
Also, yes this isnt the best cast done by Downwhere (oldchool ftw) but he's done some really hilarious videos and is (in his own way ofc) a quite entertaining caster:
But just so you wont get miss-viewed experiences of Warcraft casting. There has been thousands of more entusiastic and more professional casters through-out the years. We have one still active who's Youtube account is "chumpesque"
Whoever cast these games is worst announcer I've ever heard, bar none. I couldn't listen to him for longer then a minute before I hit mute. That being said, I don't mind cheese play, it mixes everything up and it often creates fun short micro games. While newer players don't benefit in the long run from cheesing every game, it adds another tier to Starcraft's gameplay.
On August 16 2010 23:50 -Archangel- wrote: Cheesing can be so much fun sometimes, especially if your opponent starts BMing you :D
I think the issue here is that most people see this as more or less just trolling. Doing something you know pisses people off because you know it pisses them off and you think its funny is more or less the definition of trolling. Its not an appreciated behavior, even if it is well within the bounds of the rules of the game.
Like I said earlier, my biggest problem with all in cheese isn't losing to it, or people doing it if they want to, but that a lot of times I go into a game wanting to practice a specific thing, and its disappointing when I don't get to try it out. Meanwhile some other platinum league player (same league as me, which is by no means close to good or pro is my point) just inflates their win/loss ratio and thinks they are better than they are. I'm not saying cheese makes you bad, but what I am saying is that cheese doesn't make you good.
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games. SC2.
The best way to improve your early game multitasking is to cheese in my opinion. TO proxy and multi task back at your base and macro at the same time while microing early attack forces that are 100% reliant on your micro is something newer players just don't know how to do, cheesing fairly often will improve your multitasking when you are on the aggressive in every game.
On August 16 2010 20:38 lowlypawn wrote: But I can’t think of a good reason NOT to “cheese” occasionally. You know the risks. Why make up additional rules for the game? The game already has all the rules in place. Use them and abuse them. Anything that throws your opponent off kilter is good, annoying is good, easy wins are good. Not to mention you learn a lot when your cheese fails miserable.
This has been said before, but it bears repeating. Cheese is a lovely, stinky thing. But the game has simple rules, and it doesn't matter how you get there, so long as you eliminate all your opponent's buildings or force them to leave the game. It doesn't matter if it's 1 base, 2 base, or 8 base play, I don't care. Cannon rush, 6rax Reaper, it's all fine, legal, and well within the rules. So if it's not illegal, why not do it if it will get you wins? If it fails, that's another thing, but all-ins are considered good plays in poker, so why not in SC?
On August 16 2010 22:40 GTR wrote: any videos of akm beating actual legit players?
I don't think he ever did beat strong players. I'm surprised the OP used him as an example because if anything he's proof that cheese isn't reliable. He was a very poor player who never did anything. I remember playing him in an obs game my first week of TFT and killing his BM 8 times, he was just awful.
For whatever reason he had a huge following and got a lot of attention. I don't know why, there were tons of people who would use nonsense proto strats on Azeroth. I don't see what made him special at all.
On August 16 2010 23:50 -Archangel- wrote: Cheesing can be so much fun sometimes, especially if your opponent starts BMing you :D
I think the issue here is that most people see this as more or less just trolling. Doing something you know pisses people off because you know it pisses them off and you think its funny is more or less the definition of trolling. Its not an appreciated behavior, even if it is well within the bounds of the rules of the game.
Like I said earlier, my biggest problem with all in cheese isn't losing to it, or people doing it if they want to, but that a lot of times I go into a game wanting to practice a specific thing, and its disappointing when I don't get to try it out. Meanwhile some other platinum league player (same league as me, which is by no means close to good or pro is my point) just inflates their win/loss ratio and thinks they are better than they are. I'm not saying cheese makes you bad, but what I am saying is that cheese doesn't make you good.
Well then, you are playing a wrong game. If you want to practice get a practice partner and play custom games against him/her.
If you play ladder you have to be prepared against everything, no matter the league or opponents. People will use whatever means to win, and if you make them happier by BMing them that is your problem not theirs.
Unlike WOW where rogue players would kill noobs that was done in early days a lot, sc2 has no such options, and it is always the losing players fault.
The best way to improve your early game multitasking is to cheese in my opinion. TO proxy and multi task back at your base and macro at the same time while microing early attack forces that are 100% reliant on your micro is something newer players just don't know how to do, cheesing fairly often will improve your multitasking when you are on the aggressive in every game.[/QUOTE]
This is so true. My game went up by a notch after 20-30 2;2 game where I 7 rax everytime. It really trains your multitasking.
i think that it is wrong to just look down on cheesing strategies or people who cheese. It is a risky strategy, but it can, on certain maps and in certain matchups, be a viable option.
It is not good for a player to only cheese, because he would have a disadvantage in the game overall and it's somehow logic, that people don't like players who cheese their way to the top.
One of the factors that make a player good, is his unpredictability. So if you are able to be effective in cheesing and also in longer macro games, it's highly beneficial if you can pull off a cheese strategie in a BO3 or BO5, just to throw the opponent off his game. It has quite some mindgame quality to cheese sometimes.
So, players like IdrA, who refuses to cheese, put themselves in somewhat of a disadvantage, although i know that IdrA focuses on training his macro skills, because he believes that this is the future of the game.
What bugs many people, is that they have to be prepared to defend cheese and rush strategies and it can surely be frustrating to loose a game where you haven't been able to use the advantages of a strong macro approach, just because you weren't prepared for cheese "X".
I would like to know, what other people consider to be a cheese. I'll list some strategies that could be listed as one: -6 pool -proxy 2 Gate -proxy Rax -Hellion rush -Reaper rush -Baneling Bust -Voidray rush -DT rush -Mech Marine timing push
I myself have a special definition of cheese: It's a strategy that focuses on abusing timings or units, that are hard to counter for the opponent, if he isn't prepared for them. There is a risk involved, because if the opponent knows it's coming, he can prepare for it. If your cheese doesn't work, you'll be at a disadvantage.
So, one could argue, that also fast Expansions could be considered cheese, just in a macro oriented way.
On August 16 2010 20:38 lowlypawn wrote: I did read every “cheese” or “cheesing” thread just to make sure I have something new to add.
Yes cheesing will only take you so far but to never cheese is also limiting yourself IMHO. Players who go for that HUGE economy need to be punished. As I get better I find myself “cheesing” less and less. But occasionally I just get a feeling about a player and think “a 7 pool will probably the last thing this guy expects” and more often than not I’m correct. Maybe it’s like calling a bluff in poker, you have to once in awhile just to keep the other players honest.
I've never cheesed because it's not viable against good players. If you try to cheese versus top players, this is what will happen:
1) Early game, your cheese tactic will fail because you'll get outsmarted and outplayed. 2) The game will then move on to mid game and you'll be behind because you've chosen a weak economic opening. 3) You'll get outmacroed because you never gave yourself a chance to win mid-late game in the first place because you went all-in early with no safety net if the cheese fails.
Why do macro players need to be punished for playing the game properly? The only way to climb the ladder from being a weak player to a much stronger player is to practice macro in the mid-late game. You'll learn nothing by cheesing.
The only times you'd want to cheese are if you're, a casual gamer who's playing for a fun and doesn't care about improving or, a top player who's bored of trying and is playing cheesy for fun without any incentive of winning because it most likely won't work anyway.
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games. SC2.
The best way to improve your early game multitasking is to cheese in my opinion. TO proxy and multi task back at your base and macro at the same time while microing early attack forces that are 100% reliant on your micro is something newer players just don't know how to do, cheesing fairly often will improve your multitasking when you are on the aggressive in every game.
Minimal macro is required for early game cheese, 4e/4sd/4s would be the extent of it for me...
On August 16 2010 23:50 -Archangel- wrote: Cheesing can be so much fun sometimes, especially if your opponent starts BMing you :D
I think the issue here is that most people see this as more or less just trolling. Doing something you know pisses people off because you know it pisses them off and you think its funny is more or less the definition of trolling. Its not an appreciated behavior, even if it is well within the bounds of the rules of the game.
Like I said earlier, my biggest problem with all in cheese isn't losing to it, or people doing it if they want to, but that a lot of times I go into a game wanting to practice a specific thing, and its disappointing when I don't get to try it out. Meanwhile some other platinum league player (same league as me, which is by no means close to good or pro is my point) just inflates their win/loss ratio and thinks they are better than they are. I'm not saying cheese makes you bad, but what I am saying is that cheese doesn't make you good.
On August 16 2010 20:38 lowlypawn wrote: I did read every “cheese” or “cheesing” thread just to make sure I have something new to add.
Yes cheesing will only take you so far but to never cheese is also limiting yourself IMHO. Players who go for that HUGE economy need to be punished. As I get better I find myself “cheesing” less and less. But occasionally I just get a feeling about a player and think “a 7 pool will probably the last thing this guy expects” and more often than not I’m correct. Maybe it’s like calling a bluff in poker, you have to once in awhile just to keep the other players honest.
I've never cheesed because it's not viable against good players. If you try to cheese versus top players, this is what will happen:
1) Early game, your cheese tactic will fail because you'll get outsmarted and outplayed. 2) The game will then move on to mid game and you'll be behind because you've chosen a weak economic opening. 3) You'll get outmacroed because you never gave yourself a chance to win mid-late game in the first place because you went all-in early with no safety net if the cheese fails.
Why do macro players need to be punished for playing the game properly? The only way to climb the ladder from being a weak player to a much stronger player is to practice macro in the mid-late game. You'll learn nothing by cheesing.
The only times you'd want to cheese are if you're, a casual gamer who's playing for a fun and doesn't care about improving or, a top player who's bored of trying and is playing cheesy for fun without any incentive of winning because it most likely won't work anyway.
Or you are practicing a specific build order to use later.
"Macro" players can cheese as well such as blindly expanding and not making turrets or cannons or whatever and just hoping that their opponent doesnt attack or realize their timings or whatever.
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games. SC2.
The best way to improve your early game multitasking is to cheese in my opinion. TO proxy and multi task back at your base and macro at the same time while microing early attack forces that are 100% reliant on your micro is something newer players just don't know how to do, cheesing fairly often will improve your multitasking when you are on the aggressive in every game.
May be true, but you're learning a false way to handle the early game if you later on try to play a more solid build. Besides, you don't learn how to macro correctly and how to transition from the early into mid- and lategame.
Of course you may get better at cheesing if you cheese a lot, but those strategies just won't work against good players, at least most of the times and good players only splash in cheese because they know the opponent won't expect them to.
At lower levels, cheesing occurs naturally, because ppl aren't able to multitask, react to different situations and macro correctly for longer games, but the more experience you get, the more it is necessary to not just cheese and win after 5 minutes or loose the game.
It's all abaout learning to play a solid build if you wanna get good at Starcraft2, cheesing is sth every noob can do, Macro-games are a different story.
But plz: Cheese as much as you wan't, if I loose to you I know it was my fault and I'll have learnt sth, which is sth the ppl cheesing can't say for themselves... ^^'
AKM has worked a FULL time job supporting his family the entire way, so yea he may not have 200 apm but he is a very talented player and has always been extremely manner.
Also, he is one of the original founders of Clan x17, the greatest brood war clan to ever exist.
On August 16 2010 23:33 sleepingdog wrote: on top level cheesing does not work
Of course it does. I remember seeing in the SC2 World Cup or w/e that the chinese people ran (17173.com I think) and there was a Zerg that sixpooled, and won his game.
Do not say that cheese doesn't work on top level, because that's simply not true.
AKM has worked a FULL time job supporting his family the entire way, so yea he may not have 200 apm but he is a very talented player and has always been extremely manner.
Also, he is one of the original founders of Clan x17, the greatest brood war clan to ever exist.
I find very funny that people complain about cheese.. When some gosu does it in big tournaments it îs called "innovative/daring play" (boxer's scv rush back in BW or the likes) but if you encounter smth like this in the ladder, the guy îs a noob cheeser.. I also hate cannon rushes or VR rush but i just boabe it on me (poor scouting or bad micro).. I dont't think "cheese" exists. There are only units and strategies.. And a good player will try ANYTHING just to win. Even all-in builds if those give him the highest win percentage.. All is fair in love and war..
On August 16 2010 23:33 sleepingdog wrote: on top level cheesing does not work
Of course it does. I remember seeing in the SC2 World Cup or w/e that the chinese people ran (17173.com I think) and there was a Zerg that sixpooled, and won his game.
Do not say that cheese doesn't work on top level, because that's simply not true.
But in Bo3's or Bo5's or whatever, there is a whole other component to cheesing compared to just cheesing in the Ladder, and that's a psychological component. If you cheese Game1, the opponent might play very carefully in the other games, not risking anything, which will give you an advantage if you play standard. Or you might play standard 2 games in a row and then cheese in the third game when the opponent doesn't expect it etc.
That's just completely different from bad players cheesing in the Ladder because they can't play anything else....
I like this thread. Good job OP You managed to talk about something that has been discussed to death while bringing something new and interesting to it
Turtling is harder in SC2 but it's still doable, note the game Day9 casted. That game is a nice example. The end game looked to me like when i played the last mission in Single player haha, blocking with buildings and bunch of tanks :D.
who were the other players that were in AKM's posse. I remember they all had capital letter names and weird/funny names like akm's in the clan KOR iirc. As well as being fairly good players even if they did cheese mostly.
On August 16 2010 20:38 lowlypawn wrote: I did read every “cheese” or “cheesing” thread just to make sure I have something new to add.
Yes cheesing will only take you so far but to never cheese is also limiting yourself IMHO. Players who go for that HUGE economy need to be punished. As I get better I find myself “cheesing” less and less. But occasionally I just get a feeling about a player and think “a 7 pool will probably the last thing this guy expects” and more often than not I’m correct. Maybe it’s like calling a bluff in poker, you have to once in awhile just to keep the other players honest.
I've never cheesed because it's not viable against good players. If you try to cheese versus top players, this is what will happen:
1) Early game, your cheese tactic will fail because you'll get outsmarted and outplayed. 2) The game will then move on to mid game and you'll be behind because you've chosen a weak economic opening. 3) You'll get outmacroed because you never gave yourself a chance to win mid-late game in the first place because you went all-in early with no safety net if the cheese fails.
Why do macro players need to be punished for playing the game properly? The only way to climb the ladder from being a weak player to a much stronger player is to practice macro in the mid-late game. You'll learn nothing by cheesing.
The only times you'd want to cheese are if you're, a casual gamer who's playing for a fun and doesn't care about improving or, a top player who's bored of trying and is playing cheesy for fun without any incentive of winning because it most likely won't work anyway.
Or you are practicing a specific build order to use later.
"Macro" players can cheese as well such as blindly expanding and not making turrets or cannons or whatever and just hoping that their opponent doesnt attack or realize their timings or whatever.
It goes both ways.
Playing blindly is just playing badly by failing to scout: not cheese.
I've never cheesed because it's not viable against good players. If you try to cheese versus top players, this is what will happen:
1) Early game, your cheese tactic will fail because you'll get outsmarted and outplayed. 2) The game will then move on to mid game and you'll be behind because you've chosen a weak economic opening. 3) You'll get outmacroed because you never gave yourself a chance to win mid-late game in the first place because you went all-in early with no safety net if the cheese fails.
Why do macro players need to be punished for playing the game properly? The only way to climb the ladder from being a weak player to a much stronger player is to practice macro in the mid-late game. You'll learn nothing by cheesing.
The only times you'd want to cheese are if you're, a casual gamer who's playing for a fun and doesn't care about improving or, a top player who's bored of trying and is playing cheesy for fun without any incentive of winning because it most likely won't work anyway.
Macro players should absolutely be punished for trying to play a strong macro game from the get-go. The point of this thread isn't that you should cheese more all around, but that it's completely acceptable in BO3/5/7s just like any bluff or mindgame gimmick in poker. If you see X top player cheese Y top player you shouldn't get upset at X player for cheesing. He choose to take a gamble not only for an easy win, but to throw off the other player, hurting him in later games when he scales back his builds for a more cautious style of play. It also boosts a player's unpredictability. Y player will be less likely to bank on one or two game plans if he knows that X player is capable of almost anything. This increases the chance that he'll make a mistake in further matches.
Yes cheesing random players on ladder doesn't gain you anything but a free win/loss, but in a BO3/5/7 where you have to face the opponent multiple times, gambles can pay off and the psychological damage it can cause is significant.
Thus, cheese is perfectly fine and acceptable in tournaments.
On August 16 2010 22:36 FuRong wrote: Wow, AKM actually has fans? Unbelievable.
I always disliked this guy, along with anyone else who plays the game for the sole reason of being as irritating as possible and wasting people's time. This isn't even cheese, it's turtling at it's absolute worst. He's no better than the idiots who tower up and mass Raiders to try and run in and kill your main (there used to be a lot back in the day)
The great thing about SC or SC2 is that you can't really pull this kind of thing off because static defense walls can be easily broken lategame. If you mass Cannons in your main then your opponent can just contain you and expand all over the map, then blow you to pieces with Tanks/Cruisers/Carriers/Broodlords. Writing GTFO in the middle of the map with Pylons while doing so is an added bonus...
Wow your comment brought memories. I lost to that strategy in the very early days of wc3, several times ! Right clicking my building with waves of raiders =((
Dunno why this strat disappeared, maybe I got better =)
On August 17 2010 01:50 Job wrote: who were the other players that were in AKM's posse. I remember they all had capital letter names and weird/funny names like akm's in the clan KOR iirc. As well as being fairly good players even if they did cheese mostly.
Yeah, that is definitely one of the issues involved. I think early all in strategies are generally what I define as cheese. For example early banshee with cloak, or early void ray I don't really see as such because they are much more stable builds from which you can transition into the rest of the game. I suppose you CAN play after 6 pooling or something, but at best if you don't win you've probably just "reset" the game. Eh, its pretty subjective to begin with.
It's been awhile since I read it, but I believe that Sun Tzu wrote that it's important to set the battle on your terms, not your enemy's. If your enemy is a strong macro player, then you need to take him down quickly. If your enemy is a cheese hound, you need to react defensively, then engage him in a drawn out macro game. Point is, that in order to be truly great yourself, you need to be able to adapt your strategy to whatever will be the most difficult for your opponent, whatever his strengths are.
Given that perspective, cheese is no less/more legitimate than any other approach. A win is a win. One might argue that cheese requires less skill than a macro/micro intensive game, any they'd be correct. But ladder rankings aren't based on skill. They're based on win/loss records. So, so long as they're not using map hacks or cheating, whatever strategy wins the match was the right strategy for that game.
Guerrilla warriors don't directly engage their enemies, but use stealth, surprise, and hit and run tactics to engage their enemies. Is it "unfair" that they should refuse to directly face their enemies on an open field? They do what they can in order to achieve their objectives.
In my mind, cheese is just another form of guerrilla warfare.
On August 16 2010 20:38 lowlypawn wrote: I did read every “cheese” or “cheesing” thread just to make sure I have something new to add.
Yes cheesing will only take you so far but to never cheese is also limiting yourself IMHO. Players who go for that HUGE economy need to be punished. As I get better I find myself “cheesing” less and less. But occasionally I just get a feeling about a player and think “a 7 pool will probably the last thing this guy expects” and more often than not I’m correct. Maybe it’s like calling a bluff in poker, you have to once in awhile just to keep the other players honest.
I've never cheesed because it's not viable against good players. If you try to cheese versus top players, this is what will happen:
1) Early game, your cheese tactic will fail because you'll get outsmarted and outplayed. 2) The game will then move on to mid game and you'll be behind because you've chosen a weak economic opening. 3) You'll get outmacroed because you never gave yourself a chance to win mid-late game in the first place because you went all-in early with no safety net if the cheese fails.
Why do macro players need to be punished for playing the game properly? The only way to climb the ladder from being a weak player to a much stronger player is to practice macro in the mid-late game. You'll learn nothing by cheesing.
The only times you'd want to cheese are if you're, a casual gamer who's playing for a fun and doesn't care about improving or, a top player who's bored of trying and is playing cheesy for fun without any incentive of winning because it most likely won't work anyway.
Or you are practicing a specific build order to use later.
"Macro" players can cheese as well such as blindly expanding and not making turrets or cannons or whatever and just hoping that their opponent doesnt attack or realize their timings or whatever.
It goes both ways.
Playing blindly is just playing badly by failing to scout: not cheese.
yes it is.
Ill give an example from bw.
Protoss blindly double expos off 1 gate goon twice without having an idea if I 2 fact or not. If i go fact cc im behind bad as the terran player if i make turrets incase hes going dt or reaver or something.
I've never cheesed because it's not viable against good players. If you try to cheese versus top players, this is what will happen:
1) Early game, your cheese tactic will fail because you'll get outsmarted and outplayed. 2) The game will then move on to mid game and you'll be behind because you've chosen a weak economic opening. 3) You'll get outmacroed because you never gave yourself a chance to win mid-late game in the first place because you went all-in early with no safety net if the cheese fails.
Why do macro players need to be punished for playing the game properly? The only way to climb the ladder from being a weak player to a much stronger player is to practice macro in the mid-late game. You'll learn nothing by cheesing.
The only times you'd want to cheese are if you're, a casual gamer who's playing for a fun and doesn't care about improving or, a top player who's bored of trying and is playing cheesy for fun without any incentive of winning because it most likely won't work anyway.
Macro players should absolutely be punished for trying to play a strong macro game from the get-go. The point of this thread isn't that you should cheese more all around, but that it's completely acceptable in BO3/5/7s just like any bluff or mindgame gimmick in poker. If you see X top player cheese Y top player you shouldn't get upset at X player for cheesing. He choose to take a gamble not only for an easy win, but to throw off the other player, hurting him in later games when he scales back his builds for a more cautious style of play. It also boosts a player's unpredictability. Y player will be less likely to bank on one or two game plans if he knows that X player is capable of almost anything. This increases the chance that he'll make a mistake in further matches.
Yes cheesing random players on ladder doesn't gain you anything but a free win/loss, but in a BO3/5/7 where you have to face the opponent multiple times, gambles can pay off and the psychological damage it can cause is significant.
Thus, cheese is perfectly fine and acceptable in tournaments.
... Such as BoxeR's triple bunker rush.
I see the benefits of cheesing, but you gain much less practice/skill cheesing then macroing. The thing that is most annoying is when your on a 2v2 and they double cheese/all in you (cannon rush+proxy 4 gate, still won with rauders)
On August 16 2010 23:38 a_monkey wrote: if ladder matches were BO3 then cheesing wouldn't be so bad. but since you're playing random players in a BO1, cheese can almost guarantee a normal w/l ratio. i personally like to play more fair games against stronger players. it helps me gauge how well my macro is coming along, and often times helps to show me how i can improve n such
The thought of ladder matches being BO3 is actually awesome. Would definitely make for some interesting changes on how people would play.
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games.
Ergo: Cheesing is for noobs and pro's only use it to F with your mind in a Bo3 or higher...
What AKM did with WC3 wasn't cheesing, he just played unorthodox strategies, you cannot compare this to random 6-pooling, cannon-rushing, proxy-gating/raxing etc. in either SC:BW or SC2.
cheesing is a way to keep greedy eco builds in check and punish players for skimping too much on early units. The option adds a great dynamic to the game and keeps every game from being fast expo EVERY game. Well executed cheeses, especially in series matches, are a boon to the game.
Decrying them as "nooby" is unfair as it makes the game far more variable and exciting
On August 16 2010 23:38 a_monkey wrote: if ladder matches were BO3 then cheesing wouldn't be so bad. but since you're playing random players in a BO1, cheese can almost guarantee a normal w/l ratio. i personally like to play more fair games against stronger players. it helps me gauge how well my macro is coming along, and often times helps to show me how i can improve n such
The thought of ladder matches being BO3 is actually awesome. Would definitely make for some interesting changes on how people would play.
Yea if it was Bo3 you could easily guesstimate at hand if another cheese was coming.
Which is why I enjoy playing Bo3 as a_monkey said, it helps me understand mistakes I have made and be able to apply that to the next game.
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games.
Ergo: Cheesing is for noobs and pro's only use it to F with your mind in a Bo3 or higher...
What AKM did with WC3 wasn't cheesing, he just played unorthodox strategies, you cannot compare this to random 6-pooling, cannon-rushing, proxy-gating/raxing etc. in either SC:BW or SC2.
This is how I look at it.
If you 6 pool me in ladder you just want to get a win. You aren't trying to get better. Same with a cannon rush. I hate it, it pisses me off.
However if I'm going to bet better at SC2 I need to learn potential counters to it. If I'm going for a 15 FE then I am being just as risky as the guy who 6 pools me.
i dont mind cheese if its like hidden voidray tech, cause scouting his base means you have time to prepare for everything and be cautious. but cannon rushing, 6 pooling, are all ins and cheeses, scout doesnt work, and i get a free win.
Reason i hate this kind of cheese though, cause unlike AKM, this strategty (cannon rushing 6 pooling etc) a monkey could do, and in no way shows he is better than me and deserved the win. go ahead, be annoying, drop alot, turtle up, mix it up and throw them off their game, but a build order a 4th grader could perfect in a couple of tries is stupid.
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games.
Ergo: Cheesing is for noobs and pro's only use it to F with your mind in a Bo3 or higher...
What AKM did with WC3 wasn't cheesing, he just played unorthodox strategies, you cannot compare this to random 6-pooling, cannon-rushing, proxy-gating/raxing etc. in either SC:BW or SC2.
I don't understand this. Everyone who sits in their ivory towers and says that cheesing is for the lowly noob classes is either one of IdrA's 50 accounts here, or someone who raged at one too many cheeses and lost.
Cheesing is part of the game, if people want to cheese, there is no rule that says they can't. C'mon people, deal with it. Scout it early and you'll probably win anyway.
On August 16 2010 23:50 -Archangel- wrote: Cheesing can be so much fun sometimes, especially if your opponent starts BMing you :D
I think the issue here is that most people see this as more or less just trolling. Doing something you know pisses people off because you know it pisses them off and you think its funny is more or less the definition of trolling. Its not an appreciated behavior, even if it is well within the bounds of the rules of the game.
Like I said earlier, my biggest problem with all in cheese isn't losing to it, or people doing it if they want to, but that a lot of times I go into a game wanting to practice a specific thing, and its disappointing when I don't get to try it out. Meanwhile some other platinum league player (same league as me, which is by no means close to good or pro is my point) just inflates their win/loss ratio and thinks they are better than they are. I'm not saying cheese makes you bad, but what I am saying is that cheese doesn't make you good.
The problem then becomes how you define cheese
We use TL's definition
"Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted. "
Anyway, cheese winning is sooo fun lol, oh the rage after a double proxy reaper rush in a 2v2 <3
Most of the time I get cheesed on SC2 ladder the person cheesing fails horribly. I'm not saying I'm really, I'm saying that a lot of people who cheese are just really bad. Cheesing too much will get you into a higher league than where you deserve to be, and from there you can't stop cheesing because if you try to play straight up you'll just get owned from lack of mechanics and strategy.
I see no problem with throwing in the occasional cheese, especially because it's just so damn funny when somebody's raging at for cheesing them.
There is cheese, which is all-in, and then there are super non-macro builds. You begin to cut workers early and try to break the player early because he went a more standard build. Sometimes it works.
That's the way I see it. Also, if you want to practice multi-tasking, try cheese. Micro builds keep macro builds in check.
Cheesing in a Bo1 (i.e. on ladder) is an acknowledgment that you have a better chance of winning if you manage to catch your opponent off guard than winning using all of the matchup's possibilities. It's an admission that you are not confident you can beat your opponent in a long match. It's kind of like sucker-punching someone.
A little off topic but I just noticed AKM is rank 156 on Blizzards top 200 list
And cheesing is a good way keeping players honest. Ive has several great games where people have 6 pooled or 7 rax reapered me Also I would love to have a bo3 option when I play ladder.
in my (admittedly slightly unprofessional) opinion there is no such thing as cheese. All the things people call cheese are beatable by responding with the right unit/static defense combination. I play a mix of cheese/hard macro builds depending on what i scout. Because i like to play so reactivly i usually send out worker to scout at the same time as building my first food sink no matter what race i am. My main is protoss but i don't think that matters as all the races have cheese tactics. The only actual (cheese) that really gets me anymore is the 6 pool just because by the time it is scouted you are dead on a small map.
TLDR Cheese is another valuable tactic in the great game of sc2 that makes it so everything has to be carefully measured and figured out.
Cheesing definitely has its place, i discourage my friends new to the game from doing it though, and encourage them to standard builds to get their mechanics up to scratch. Cheesing wont teach them anything about how to play the game beyond their selected cheese, but a player with well rounded fundamentals using it as part of an evolved strategy is fine IMO
The main difference between War3 and Starcraft is that it is much harder to innovate in War3 and there are less strategical opportunities, thus a lot of War3 players consider cheese to be refreshing.
Even when there was a "revolution" in a specific MU, almost every single good player was playing the new strat after 2-3 weeks or so.
On August 16 2010 20:38 lowlypawn wrote: But I can’t think of a good reason NOT to “cheese” occasionally. You know the risks. Why make up additional rules for the game? The game already has all the rules in place. Use them and abuse them. Anything that throws your opponent off kilter is good, annoying is good, easy wins are good. Not to mention you learn a lot when your cheese fails miserable.
Cheesing is great if you want to win at all costs. However, that always comes at a price, which is that the game is pretty clear-cut without any benefit to you as a player.
Win or lose, you don't learn much from a cheese. I'm reminded of the Kwanro flowchart: your post-game mentality is usually something like 'oh well, I lost, but it was all-in'. Trivializing losses happens on both sides of cheese, and the end result is that as far as learning goes, it was a wasted game. The result is that you're going to end up with an inflated rank and little ability to win a game doing anything but that, which limits your overall options to keeping with pure cheese.
Ladder games are blind. You don't need to cheese occasionally to keep a mixed playstyle because you're not playing opponents that know you and are going to prepare. If it was tournament play, and playing the same standard build every game would get you punished, this would be entirely different - and cheesing in tournaments is entirely reasonable because if you don't pull out every tool to win, you're doing yourself a disservice. The ladder, however, is not a tournament, it's (for most people) a place to improve and enjoy games.
EPT
You managed to talk about something that has been discussed to death while bringing something new and interesting to it 
