I did read every “cheese” or “cheesing” thread just to make sure I have something new to add.
I don’t understand this aversion players have to “cheesing”? I read thread after thread new players saying “I don’t want to cheese to win”. What?!?! Seems everyone has a slightly different idea what cheese is but most would consider Mass void rays, Bunker contains, 7 pool + spine crawler rush, Cannon rushing ETC = cheese.
But I can’t think of a good reason NOT to “cheese” occasionally. You know the risks. Why make up additional rules for the game? The game already has all the rules in place. Use them and abuse them. Anything that throws your opponent off kilter is good, annoying is good, easy wins are good. Not to mention you learn a lot when your cheese fails miserable.
Idra gets annoyed when he get cheesed but what does he expect? Players know he is a macro monster, why would other players play into his strengths? If he was never cheesed think of the monster economy build he would probably go for.
Yes cheesing will only take you so far but to never cheese is also limiting yourself IMHO. Players who go for that HUGE economy need to be punished. As I get better I find myself “cheesing” less and less. But occasionally I just get a feeling about a player and think “a 7 pool will probably the last thing this guy expects” and more often than not I’m correct. Maybe it’s like calling a bluff in poker, you have to once in awhile just to keep the other players honest.
Most SC players have probably never heard of Angry Korea Man (AKM) a WC3 player. He was probably the last name you ever wanted to see in the loading screen because you knew the game was going to be at least an hour long, probably two. He played human and would immediately tower up. He also picked the then rarely used Blood Mage. The Blood Mage has this annoying spell called Flame Strike (and Mana Siphon). He would flame strike any siege you rolled in to take down the towers, so early siege simply didn’t work. This often forced players totally out of their game plan, AKM would then just mass up the perfect counter to whatever they built all the while doing annoying hit and run attacks (like invis-a-morters and stuff). I loved watching AKM replays. My point is that guy had no rules except to win (and annoy the other player). The very top players could beat him but they had to work. I saw AKM beat some impressive players, and I don’t think his micro was anywhere near as good as some of the player he beat.
Personally I would love to create an AKM inspired Zerg strategy as unique and annoying. You could almost call it a strategy based on cheese. I don’t know if an AKM strategy is possible in SC2 because map control and static defense is so different (which is a good thing, I had some serious gripes with WC3). Well that’s my thought on cheesing. Agree? Disagree? And if anyone thinks of an AKM inspired strategy for Zerg I’m all ears!
BTW I found a WC3 video of AKM in action if anyone is interested. Part 1 Part 2 Part 3
Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games.
Ergo: Cheesing is for noobs and pro's only use it to F with your mind in a Bo3 or higher...
What AKM did with WC3 wasn't cheesing, he just played unorthodox strategies, you cannot compare this to random 6-pooling, cannon-rushing, proxy-gating/raxing etc. in either SC:BW or SC2.
AKM was awesome but he didn't really play unorthodox strategies, he played a unorthodox strategy. I've never seen him do anything but Blood Mage and towering up (except for some tinker rush in a 2v2).
Is this the only AKM VOD on youtube? I'm glad you posted since I haven't seen him in a long time but this was an AWFUL game by both players and an awful commentator :S
This must have been in the early days of AKM, he's usually a lot better than this.
edit- The best game I ever saw of AKM was on Two Rivers, he used flamestrike to make a hole in the trees next to his opponents base and dropped the Bloodmage + Archmage in there using a Zeppelin, the opponent couldn't do anything with no air units early game ^_^
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games. SC2.
In the long run it won't improve your game, but don't say constantly cheesing won't improve your micro lol, that's just silly. If you'd cheese all day long 24/7 you'd have the timings in your head the positions for proxies, map knowledge etc. It's just that people cheese when they lose a lot and want some free wins, but don't say it's for noobs. PROS did it, in BW in WC3 and they'll do it in SC2.
And sometimes cheeses produce the best games ever, fun to watch.
What I don't like is "all in" cheese. If you can transition out of it into something else and keep playing if it fails, then I'm fine with it. All in stuff though just makes for games that are boring, win or lose, in my opinion. I'm to the point now where cheese usually doesn't kill me, (sometimes it does still), but it isn't the winning/losing from it that I care about so much as that it just sort of cheapens the experience.
Whatever, though, I'm no pro, I don't play to become a pr. I care about improving at the game but mostly just feel cheated out of mid and late game learning experience when someone tries an early all in.
I always disliked this guy, along with anyone else who plays the game for the sole reason of being as irritating as possible and wasting people's time. This isn't even cheese, it's turtling at it's absolute worst. He's no better than the idiots who tower up and mass Raiders to try and run in and kill your main (there used to be a lot back in the day)
The great thing about SC or SC2 is that you can't really pull this kind of thing off because static defense walls can be easily broken lategame. If you mass Cannons in your main then your opponent can just contain you and expand all over the map, then blow you to pieces with Tanks/Cruisers/Carriers/Broodlords. Writing GTFO in the middle of the map with Pylons while doing so is an added bonus...
Cheesing in starcraft is the equivalent of getting into a fight and kicking your opponent in the nuts, sure there's no "rules" against it, but it's cheap so people frown upon it. If you feel like taking down a larger opponent by catching them off guard than that's your perogative, if you couldn't have beaten them any other way then why not?
On August 16 2010 22:36 FuRong wrote: Wow, AKM actually has fans? Unbelievable.
I always disliked this guy, along with anyone else who plays the game for the sole reason of being as irritating as possible and wasting people's time. This isn't even cheese, it's turtling at it's absolute worst. He's no better than the idiots who tower up and mass Raiders to try and run in and kill your main (there used to be a lot back in the day)
The great thing about SC or SC2 is that you can't really pull this kind of thing off because static defense walls can be easily broken lategame. If you mass Cannons in your main then your opponent can just contain you and expand all over the map, then blow you to pieces with Tanks/Cruisers/Carriers/Broodlords. Writing GTFO in the middle of the map with Pylons while doing so is an added bonus...
Hell yes.
Towers are such an obnoxious thing to deal with in Wc3... incredible.
For new players, cheesing doesn't allow you to practice your macro, which is the true differentiation between the skill tiers. Learn to cheese after you've built up solid macro skills.
I could run 5000 times around my house for better fitness; will I do that? no, I just run out of my hometown through a small forest which is my usual 15km-running-path and really relaxing and fun; since my connection is currently very unstable, I'm afraid of playing ladder and stick with custom-games (don't feel like getting demoted due to disconnects after going 5:0 placement without problems); if my opponent tries to cheese I either pull through when I think he's a noob or immediately gg; I don't see any point in this; for me the definition of cheesing would be a potentially sucessful strategy that uses flaws in the gamedesign to win in a way you are not supposed to; like in first person shooters where somebody camps around in a completely irrelevant corner to shoot you in the back when you run by; there are noobs who never win any games and occasionally think "screw it" and cheese to win for once; they are excused; but I think it's extremely sad how someone with a pretty decent understanding of the game would intentionally play the game in an annoying way making it the most frustrating experience for his opponent; with the only goal being a) winning and b) molesting others this is basicly what I expect from people who develop internet viruses, e-mail-spamming-tools and such stuff
if ladder matches were BO3 then cheesing wouldn't be so bad. but since you're playing random players in a BO1, cheese can almost guarantee a normal w/l ratio. i personally like to play more fair games against stronger players. it helps me gauge how well my macro is coming along, and often times helps to show me how i can improve n such
EPT
