EPTAversion to cheesing? & Angry Korea Man - Page 2
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Jameser
Sweden951 Posts
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
Like i CS when I would be protecting the hostages and just collect them all and hide with all of them in some dark corner and camp there until either time ran out or they came one by one (because they need to find me until time runs out so they spread) and you win :D | ||
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
I rarely cheese however. They only cheese I performed in the last 3 weeks was against a zerg player on steppes where I 7 pool crawler rushed him and it worked perfectly. The next game (same player, ironically) I went for a fast VR on oasis as PvZ against his ~16-20 hatch preparing for a fast expo and I just beat him straght up because he wasn't prepared (?!?!) The point is that cheese does have it's place. It keeps your opponents honest and prevents them from doing builds that die instantly to cheese and can't transition to beat it but can survive normal early-game pushes. And that's the reason why I don't believe cheese is inherently a bad thing. It keeps players honest, and prevents macro "cheese". Some FE builds can very much be all-ins if your opponent coutners them correctly, after all. | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
On August 16 2010 23:40 wishbones wrote: Sorry if this has been posted before but.. whats wc3? that crappy game that tried to be good? or .. i always said if they removed heroe's and creeping wc3 would have been almost if not just as good a game as sc. Wc3 was a great game. But well everyone has different opinons. You should ateast try it out before making any conclusions. And obviously you cant compare Wc3 and SC:BW because well...they really arent that similar to each others except the RTS genre itself. Someone asked if there's any videos of AKM beating good and known players. Well I know there is, but digging through times years back is not really that easy. I found these (Not videos, its replays from version 1.20 and 1.21 so watching them is gonna be hard (PM me if you really want to) but you can read the comments): http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=85074 http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=66428 Also, yes this isnt the best cast done by Downwhere (oldchool ftw) but he's done some really hilarious videos and is (in his own way ofc) a quite entertaining caster: But just so you wont get miss-viewed experiences of Warcraft casting. There has been thousands of more entusiastic and more professional casters through-out the years. We have one still active who's Youtube account is "chumpesque" | ||
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Lazix
Australia378 Posts
Obviously can't confirm if it was really him. | ||
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Volshok
United States349 Posts
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On August 16 2010 23:50 -Archangel- wrote: Cheesing can be so much fun sometimes, especially if your opponent starts BMing you :D I think the issue here is that most people see this as more or less just trolling. Doing something you know pisses people off because you know it pisses them off and you think its funny is more or less the definition of trolling. Its not an appreciated behavior, even if it is well within the bounds of the rules of the game. Like I said earlier, my biggest problem with all in cheese isn't losing to it, or people doing it if they want to, but that a lot of times I go into a game wanting to practice a specific thing, and its disappointing when I don't get to try it out. Meanwhile some other platinum league player (same league as me, which is by no means close to good or pro is my point) just inflates their win/loss ratio and thinks they are better than they are. I'm not saying cheese makes you bad, but what I am saying is that cheese doesn't make you good. | ||
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
On August 16 2010 21:12 kickinhead wrote: Cheesing is a strategy that is unstable and only gives you an easy win if the opponent doesn't scout it. This means it's practically a gamble and you won't improve by cheesing although you'll probably get many wins if you just spam games. SC2. The best way to improve your early game multitasking is to cheese in my opinion. TO proxy and multi task back at your base and macro at the same time while microing early attack forces that are 100% reliant on your micro is something newer players just don't know how to do, cheesing fairly often will improve your multitasking when you are on the aggressive in every game. | ||
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Mirhi
United States389 Posts
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
On August 16 2010 20:38 lowlypawn wrote: But I can’t think of a good reason NOT to “cheese” occasionally. You know the risks. Why make up additional rules for the game? The game already has all the rules in place. Use them and abuse them. Anything that throws your opponent off kilter is good, annoying is good, easy wins are good. Not to mention you learn a lot when your cheese fails miserable. This has been said before, but it bears repeating. Cheese is a lovely, stinky thing. But the game has simple rules, and it doesn't matter how you get there, so long as you eliminate all your opponent's buildings or force them to leave the game. It doesn't matter if it's 1 base, 2 base, or 8 base play, I don't care. Cannon rush, 6rax Reaper, it's all fine, legal, and well within the rules. So if it's not illegal, why not do it if it will get you wins? If it fails, that's another thing, but all-ins are considered good plays in poker, so why not in SC? | ||
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
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paulany
United States1 Post
On August 16 2010 22:40 GTR wrote: any videos of akm beating actual legit players? I don't think he ever did beat strong players. I'm surprised the OP used him as an example because if anything he's proof that cheese isn't reliable. He was a very poor player who never did anything. I remember playing him in an obs game my first week of TFT and killing his BM 8 times, he was just awful. For whatever reason he had a huge following and got a lot of attention. I don't know why, there were tons of people who would use nonsense proto strats on Azeroth. I don't see what made him special at all. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On August 17 2010 00:23 SnuggleZhenya wrote: I think the issue here is that most people see this as more or less just trolling. Doing something you know pisses people off because you know it pisses them off and you think its funny is more or less the definition of trolling. Its not an appreciated behavior, even if it is well within the bounds of the rules of the game. Like I said earlier, my biggest problem with all in cheese isn't losing to it, or people doing it if they want to, but that a lot of times I go into a game wanting to practice a specific thing, and its disappointing when I don't get to try it out. Meanwhile some other platinum league player (same league as me, which is by no means close to good or pro is my point) just inflates their win/loss ratio and thinks they are better than they are. I'm not saying cheese makes you bad, but what I am saying is that cheese doesn't make you good. Well then, you are playing a wrong game. If you want to practice get a practice partner and play custom games against him/her. If you play ladder you have to be prepared against everything, no matter the league or opponents. People will use whatever means to win, and if you make them happier by BMing them that is your problem not theirs. Unlike WOW where rogue players would kill noobs that was done in early days a lot, sc2 has no such options, and it is always the losing players fault. | ||
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b0oyah
Canada117 Posts
The best way to improve your early game multitasking is to cheese in my opinion. TO proxy and multi task back at your base and macro at the same time while microing early attack forces that are 100% reliant on your micro is something newer players just don't know how to do, cheesing fairly often will improve your multitasking when you are on the aggressive in every game.[/QUOTE] This is so true. My game went up by a notch after 20-30 2;2 game where I 7 rax everytime. It really trains your multitasking. | ||
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
It is a risky strategy, but it can, on certain maps and in certain matchups, be a viable option. It is not good for a player to only cheese, because he would have a disadvantage in the game overall and it's somehow logic, that people don't like players who cheese their way to the top. One of the factors that make a player good, is his unpredictability. So if you are able to be effective in cheesing and also in longer macro games, it's highly beneficial if you can pull off a cheese strategie in a BO3 or BO5, just to throw the opponent off his game. It has quite some mindgame quality to cheese sometimes. So, players like IdrA, who refuses to cheese, put themselves in somewhat of a disadvantage, although i know that IdrA focuses on training his macro skills, because he believes that this is the future of the game. What bugs many people, is that they have to be prepared to defend cheese and rush strategies and it can surely be frustrating to loose a game where you haven't been able to use the advantages of a strong macro approach, just because you weren't prepared for cheese "X". I would like to know, what other people consider to be a cheese. I'll list some strategies that could be listed as one: -6 pool -proxy 2 Gate -proxy Rax -Hellion rush -Reaper rush -Baneling Bust -Voidray rush -DT rush -Mech Marine timing push I myself have a special definition of cheese: It's a strategy that focuses on abusing timings or units, that are hard to counter for the opponent, if he isn't prepared for them. There is a risk involved, because if the opponent knows it's coming, he can prepare for it. If your cheese doesn't work, you'll be at a disadvantage. So, one could argue, that also fast Expansions could be considered cheese, just in a macro oriented way. | ||
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On August 16 2010 20:38 lowlypawn wrote: I did read every “cheese” or “cheesing” thread just to make sure I have something new to add. Yes cheesing will only take you so far but to never cheese is also limiting yourself IMHO. Players who go for that HUGE economy need to be punished. As I get better I find myself “cheesing” less and less. But occasionally I just get a feeling about a player and think “a 7 pool will probably the last thing this guy expects” and more often than not I’m correct. Maybe it’s like calling a bluff in poker, you have to once in awhile just to keep the other players honest. I've never cheesed because it's not viable against good players. If you try to cheese versus top players, this is what will happen: 1) Early game, your cheese tactic will fail because you'll get outsmarted and outplayed. 2) The game will then move on to mid game and you'll be behind because you've chosen a weak economic opening. 3) You'll get outmacroed because you never gave yourself a chance to win mid-late game in the first place because you went all-in early with no safety net if the cheese fails. Why do macro players need to be punished for playing the game properly? The only way to climb the ladder from being a weak player to a much stronger player is to practice macro in the mid-late game. You'll learn nothing by cheesing. The only times you'd want to cheese are if you're, a casual gamer who's playing for a fun and doesn't care about improving or, a top player who's bored of trying and is playing cheesy for fun without any incentive of winning because it most likely won't work anyway. | ||
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Pheard
Canada22 Posts
On August 17 2010 00:29 Snowfield wrote: The best way to improve your early game multitasking is to cheese in my opinion. TO proxy and multi task back at your base and macro at the same time while microing early attack forces that are 100% reliant on your micro is something newer players just don't know how to do, cheesing fairly often will improve your multitasking when you are on the aggressive in every game. Minimal macro is required for early game cheese, 4e/4sd/4s would be the extent of it for me... | ||
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Sadist
United States7205 Posts
On August 17 2010 00:23 SnuggleZhenya wrote: I think the issue here is that most people see this as more or less just trolling. Doing something you know pisses people off because you know it pisses them off and you think its funny is more or less the definition of trolling. Its not an appreciated behavior, even if it is well within the bounds of the rules of the game. Like I said earlier, my biggest problem with all in cheese isn't losing to it, or people doing it if they want to, but that a lot of times I go into a game wanting to practice a specific thing, and its disappointing when I don't get to try it out. Meanwhile some other platinum league player (same league as me, which is by no means close to good or pro is my point) just inflates their win/loss ratio and thinks they are better than they are. I'm not saying cheese makes you bad, but what I am saying is that cheese doesn't make you good. The problem then becomes how you define cheese  | ||
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
As in like all caps typing as he tried to 6 rax reaper me :p | ||
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