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I think the main problem and all the whining from zerg stems from this, that the zerg can no longer get off a strong muta harass with stacked mutas and get an economic lead or just end the game there, like they could in bw. Zerg players in BW were not very creative and I think thats why they have not been able to come up with a defined method of stopping the reaper harass in sc2. I think the game is balanced, the zergs just are going to have to think outside to box to create a solution for themselves.
Its been a long time since a nother T player screamed PLAY CREATIVE :D
First of all as above said... Z is missing 3 Units compared to Terrand and Toss. Z is missing a second Caster, which is key to pull of crazy stuff.
Z units are very straight forward and not as gimmicky as many T units are, which is fine it adds a zergish feeling. Dont get me wrong I wanna have a Unit that offers offensiv play like a lurker or defiler (not demanding for either of these, even if I think the Lurker would have been perfect for Z)
how about moar queens!!!! hmmm yeah great idea, that way we have more stuff to get kited and our lair tech is extremely delayed so we will inevitable die to the next MM push!
That is so fkn true. Its like those guys demanding Z to build massqueens when they go Voidrays or Banshee. Fine I'll have enough AA in my base to fight of those Airunits, but there are also 450+mins. in the base, which wont do too much later on and will set u back pretty far in eco (could be drones) and offensiv potential (mobile defensiv unit).
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On September 04 2010 19:23 pechkin wrote:![[image loading]](http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/4788/facepaml.jpg)
Haha, nice one man :D
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On August 15 2010 09:34 MasterAsia wrote:
Now in SC2, Zerg units are really weak. 5 Hydras < 1 battlecruiser or 1 thor, 5 roaches < 1 thor. That means hydras and roaches are really resource ineffective against big things
Gas-wise, 1 Battlecruiser is equal to 6 Hydralisks, 1 Thor equal to 8 Roaches. Obviously this ignores the minerals, but just something that I think you should have expanded upon.
On August 15 2010 09:34 MasterAsia wrote:
9, The Terran is so easy to play.
This is a very subjective part, thus I don't think you can really use this when making an argument.
I also think you really overhyped some Terran traits in several parts of the post. For example, I think you could have expanded on Infestor play when facing Marine/Marauder when you talked about counters (which, thanks to day9, I cringe upon hearing word). Also I think you overexaggerated how good Terran map control / macro is in part 8.
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On August 15 2010 10:10 Integra wrote:
What kind of people are you playing that actually lets you execute and win with those kinds of openings, ghost rush nuke, mass vikings???
Just for the people going "WTF ghost nuke lol":
Boom
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On September 01 2010 00:36 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 17:35 nybbas wrote:On August 31 2010 16:59 dybydx wrote:
i agree with Rabiator that alot of the current problems are map related. alot of the famous maps in BW had very large openings in the center that allow Z many options to surround T.
although back then there was dark swarm so Z could just 1a into the T ball. You really come off as wanting to blame everything but a possible Terran imbalance. (not that I disagree that the current map pool is total BS if you are zerg) In BW all the units were also 2d, so you didnt have the problem of an SCV hiding behind a thor/planetary fortress, being a total pain in the ass to click on. Not to mention autorepair taking away ANY sort of micro skill needed to do the repairing... So defilers autocast dark swarm in BW if you attack moved them? I don't remember that... You really come off as if you have to find some imbalanced units or you are unhappy [unnecessary sentence in both cases IMO]. I am not saying there are no units which require tweaking, but simply increasing the map size eliminates a shitload of problems in all matchups, because it allows all three races to fully use their strengths AND it doesnt negate the weaknesses of some races (immobility is negated totally if you only have 50 yards to drive to the opponents base as we see on Steppes of War or Incineration Zone and at the same time Zerg mobility advantage is negated as well, because there is no room to use it). The real problem with the "map size imbalance" is that you actually have to THINK to recognize it, because that isnt made up of numbers. With siege tank damage, roach armor, roach food, reaper damage, ... its all numbers and numbers are easy to understand for most simple minds which whine about the imbalance. Personally I expect Zerg to become imbalanced once they can realize the full potential of the race on larger maps simply because the mobility advantage (Nydus worm somewhere close to the enemy) plus the instant reproduction of a destroyed 200/200 army from many bases will provide too much pressure once the Zerg has 4 bases or so. The current downsizing of siege tank damage will make these units somewhat useless, because the Terran will have to spread out to defend his bases due to the lack of an easy to build [PF isnt easy to build and its bulk doesnt allow placement everywhere] static defense that shoots ground.
Coming from a guy who four days ago said that he doesn't even have the game. Why do you insist that you know so much about TvZ when you haven't even played much of any matchup? I'm sick of silver (ermm or bronze or nothing) terrans coming here and repeat the same meaningless cliches to zerg players who are trying so desperately to find a way of improving their game.
On August 29 2010 18:23 Rabiator wrote:
I am sorry, but I cant watch replays due to the simple fact of not owning the game...., blah blah blah
I'm sorry I cannot take seriously the opinion of somebody who either has not got the game, or who has only recently got the game and is still in silver after 10 games, who definitely has not played zerg above bronze level, and who has given such ridiculously impractical advice to tried and tested zerg players about how to ZvT better (yeah.. I'm referring to one-liners such as "sac an overlord", etc etc.) You may watch your occassional VoDs, but to use what you saw in the VoD to tell zergs to "be ceartive", without having even touched the game, is just ignorant.
Having a balance discussion with people who feel a need to deny the existence of an overpowered race, without any good reasons (they don't even own the game) and based solely on the generalisations they have about zerg and terran players in their minds (terrans are creative and zergs just try the same thing over and over), is purely meaningless
Don't comment if you have no clue what you are on about
*edit: Planetary Fortress not easy to build? Are you insane? You just click a button. 150 min 150 gas on top of your mining CC... what is "not easy" about that? That with 4 turrets, and then you have a virtually permanently indestructible expansion. And no, gathering scvs around the fortress so you can auto-repair is not hard either.
To the other part of your post: Zerg recognise map imbalance, but it must be noted that some maps are actually very good for zerg (I love scrap station, have yet to lose to terran on that map in a ladder game). believe it or not, unlike what you thought, zerg think more than just the numbers on the units. We also think about the timing at which units are available (reaper would not be an issue if terran needs more than a tech lab to make them, thor would not be an issue if getting one out is as hard as getting out a broodlord), the scouting (which I described comprehensively in a previous thread, and which you replied with "sac an overlord"), and the economy (mules). Zerg players, contrary to your belief, is actually intelligent enough to think about all this. It's not about the numbers to many of us.
Until you stop making baseless remarks, and put some efforts into TvZ on either side, nobody will take you seriously.
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Even I'm just a gold player I'd like to give my comment about this as I think ballance should count for all players, not only Korean Pro players who obviously run fine with zerg.
First of all I think that the main points are already mentioned often enough and are not negotiable.
1. The maps prefer Terran turtling while denying Zerg sorroundings (specially when u consider the scan ability). The map changing is something that is found in nearly all new RTS. (I jsut want to mention the all time classic AOE 2 to AOE 3 map design changes). While before maps often used wide fields to encounter battles, its today mroe changed into small pathes u've to walk along like in a roleplay game.
2. The imballance of Terran is not found in they are simply OP, it's more found in the detail, that Terrans can not only counter nearly all units with Tier 1 units effectivly, the proper counter against Tier 1 Terran units are also found in higher Tiers of the other races
3. The upgrade costs of Tier 1 Terrans (example concusive shells) are a joke compared to upgrade costs for other races (best example Stalker blink). The result is that even in pro games the Terrans easily fight with an edge of upgraded units against basic units.
The opinion I'd liek to add here is that in my opinion Blizzard is just more creative with the Terrans. They ahve a better imagination fo hwoa future Human race should fight while obviously having problems to develope some good fantasies about what the otehr races should be able to do. Nearly every Terran Unit has a skill to activate, while those little edges are often boring or less effective for the other racs. U even see that int he unit design. Already the helion upgrade gives you a pretty blue flame, while Hydralisks can just upgrade the range e.g.. Beside speedlings i'd not know where there is put so much lvoe int he units as in the Terrans.
I made my way up tpt he top 20 gold ladder with playing protoss. I prepared a change to Zerg pretty well, trained different openings gainst A.I., trained in 2vs2 with experimenting Battle micro and so on. Int he gold ladder how ever I got ass kicked by strategies that were just flat. The only games I won were those were i used technics I got form watshing Korean games and used mroe of the special abilities, but it can't be that I need to micro infestors against Thors which are simply produced by putting an armory down. Even in games I was clearly favored I had trouble defending my opponement. Against turtling I never really developed a strategy beside outgrowing in macro while herassing. There were few games I won by using e.g. a nydus worm behind the barrier of the terran tanks while occupying the main door. But seriously, against what player above silver would that work? The abilities and units that makes Zerg equal are much more difficult to handle than fromt eh toerh races. Mindcontrolling with my Infestors while sorrounding with my zerglings and hold my mutalisks in magic box at the same time is just too much requirements against an oponement who simply has to focus out some dangerous elemts of my Zerg composition. Resulting in this I got degraded within 4 days Zerg playing to silver league, place 70. Changed to Terran and got back to my old placing within 2 days.
Here, once again: I'm just a gold player and doing so much micro at the same time is bringing me to my borders (APM about 90 average). It defenetly is imballanced when I have to micro tribble as fast as my terran oponement who is just executing basic strategies and doind attack moves. I'Ve heared the argument that Zerg just is not my strongest race, and it is true. But the reason for this is that u need a much higher APM and much better micro skills than for every other race. Even if I'm just a gold player I know the tactics of the races well and only performing the Zerg once seem difficult for me. Imagine another sport, like olympic long distance running.
Runner 1: Hey, I don't stand a chance against u, ure much faster!!
Runner 2: No problem, just get a jetpack at the truck station a mile north. No reason to whine.
Result: while the one runner can just start wihtout thinking runenr two has to fgiure out how to get his jetpack and then cover up with the other. He might still win, but the effort to this is uncomparable.
Chances has to be the same from begin on!
The opinion about the preference from Blizzard towards the terrans is also proven by the newest patch. All the changes are based on nerfing some units and the dominant idea was to nerf the Terrans, obviously. But did they even mention adding soem edges for the other races? not one word. Either the Blizzard people have developed the idea behind playing Terrans much further developed since BW compared to the otehr races cause they were occupied with the terran campaign, or they are simply limited in their fantasy about constructing logical races.
Beside the Zerg problem, it is also to renember that protoss got nerfed in every patch since the Beta, making them more and more unattractive.
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On September 04 2010 03:05 RampancyTW wrote:
I lost to one terran so far today
It was 100% my fault
my life is awesome
so is zerg
I <3 the swarm .
Stop overstating the problems with zerg. Any MAJOR buffs to zerg or any particular early-game unit would break the game so hard in zerg's favor it's not even funny
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On September 04 2010 23:08 Cyuss wrote:
Even I'm just a gold player I'd like to give my comment about this as I think ballance should count for all players, not only Korean Pro players who obviously run fine with zerg.
First of all I think that the main points are already mentioned often enough and are not negotiable.
1. The maps prefer Terran turtling while denying Zerg sorroundings (specially when u consider the scan ability). The map changing is something that is found in nearly all new RTS. (I jsut want to mention the all time classic AOE 2 to AOE 3 map design changes). While before maps often used wide fields to encounter battles, its today mroe changed into small pathes u've to walk along like in a roleplay game.
2. The imballance of Terran is not found in they are simply OP, it's more found in the detail, that Terrans can not only counter nearly all units with Tier 1 units effectivly, the proper counter against Tier 1 Terran units are also found in higher Tiers of the other races
3. The upgrade costs of Tier 1 Terrans (example concusive shells) are a joke compared to upgrade costs for other races (best example Stalker blink). The result is that even in pro games the Terrans easily fight with an edge of upgraded units against basic units.
The opinion I'd liek to add here is that in my opinion Blizzard is just more creative with the Terrans. They ahve a better imagination fo hwoa future Human race should fight while obviously having problems to develope some good fantasies about what the otehr races should be able to do. Nearly every Terran Unit has a skill to activate, while those little edges are often boring or less effective for the other racs. U even see that int he unit design. Already the helion upgrade gives you a pretty blue flame, while Hydralisks can just upgrade the range e.g.. Beside speedlings i'd not know where there is put so much lvoe int he units as in the Terrans.
I made my way up tpt he top 20 gold ladder with playing protoss. I prepared a change to Zerg pretty well, trained different openings gainst A.I., trained in 2vs2 with experimenting Battle micro and so on. Int he gold ladder how ever I got ass kicked by strategies that were just flat. The only games I won were those were i used technics I got form watshing Korean games and used mroe of the special abilities, but it can't be that I need to micro infestors against Thors which are simply produced by putting an armory down. Even in games I was clearly favored I had trouble defending my opponement. Against turtling I never really developed a strategy beside outgrowing in macro while herassing. There were few games I won by using e.g. a nydus worm behind the barrier of the terran tanks while occupying the main door. But seriously, against what player above silver would that work? The abilities and units that makes Zerg equal are much more difficult to handle than fromt eh toerh races. Mindcontrolling with my Infestors while sorrounding with my zerglings and hold my mutalisks in magic box at the same time is just too much requirements against an oponement who simply has to focus out some dangerous elemts of my Zerg composition. Resulting in this I got degraded within 4 days Zerg playing to silver league, place 70. Changed to Terran and got back to my old placing within 2 days.
Here, once again: I'm just a gold player and doing so much micro at the same time is bringing me to my borders (APM about 90 average). It defenetly is imballanced when I have to micro tribble as fast as my terran oponement who is just executing basic strategies and doind attack moves. I'Ve heared the argument that Zerg just is not my strongest race, and it is true. But the reason for this is that u need a much higher APM and much better micro skills than for every other race. Even if I'm just a gold player I know the tactics of the races well and only performing the Zerg once seem difficult for me. Imagine another sport, like olympic long distance running.
Runner 1: Hey, I don't stand a chance against u, ure much faster!!
Runner 2: No problem, just get a jetpack at the truck station a mile north. No reason to whine.
Result: while the one runner can just start wihtout thinking runenr two has to fgiure out how to get his jetpack and then cover up with the other. He might still win, but the effort to this is uncomparable.
Chances has to be the same from begin on!
The opinion about the preference from Blizzard towards the terrans is also proven by the newest patch. All the changes are based on nerfing some units and the dominant idea was to nerf the Terrans, obviously. But did they even mention adding soem edges for the other races? not one word. Either the Blizzard people have developed the idea behind playing Terrans much further developed since BW compared to the otehr races cause they were occupied with the terran campaign, or they are simply limited in their fantasy about constructing logical races.
Beside the Zerg problem, it is also to renember that protoss got nerfed in every patch since the Beta, making them more and more unattractive.
1) Spellchecker please. 
2) While you may have som valid points, most of what you're saying is just repeating what the OP said. Otherwise it's just rant. And I don't think you should make such assumptions after 4 days of playing Zerg. I myself play Zerg and have since the beta was released, give or take a few days (played Protoss in BW).
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Now.. what I want to add to this discussion:
I find it hard to play against Terran aswell, but more than all I find it boring. Since the only time I really can do anything but Muta/Speedling/Baneling is when I know for sure I'm playing better than my opponent.
I believe the versatility and easy counters that Terran have (with many maps being 'biased' towards Terran) is a huge problem for Zerg players. Mostly I think this comes down to marines and mauraders with stim being able to counter tier 3 units, and the "stupidly good" AI which allows 90% of the Terran t1-units to attack the Zerg (at the same time, imagine mid-game 1v1 battle) whilst only about 30-40% of the Zerg lower tier units can attack at the same time.
And with reactors and/or multiple barracks (or factories/starports) the Terran army will often replenish faster than the Zerg.
Btw.. MMM+tanks.. I mean.. wtf?
This thread is very interesting to read, wish someone would clean it out though.
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I love it when T goes 1-base bioball
2-base (B)Ling-Sroaches overrun them so easily it's not even funny
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On September 04 2010 20:54 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 00:36 Rabiator wrote:On August 31 2010 17:35 nybbas wrote:On August 31 2010 16:59 dybydx wrote:
i agree with Rabiator that alot of the current problems are map related. alot of the famous maps in BW had very large openings in the center that allow Z many options to surround T.
although back then there was dark swarm so Z could just 1a into the T ball. You really come off as wanting to blame everything but a possible Terran imbalance. (not that I disagree that the current map pool is total BS if you are zerg) In BW all the units were also 2d, so you didnt have the problem of an SCV hiding behind a thor/planetary fortress, being a total pain in the ass to click on. Not to mention autorepair taking away ANY sort of micro skill needed to do the repairing... So defilers autocast dark swarm in BW if you attack moved them? I don't remember that... You really come off as if you have to find some imbalanced units or you are unhappy [unnecessary sentence in both cases IMO]. I am not saying there are no units which require tweaking, but simply increasing the map size eliminates a shitload of problems in all matchups, because it allows all three races to fully use their strengths AND it doesnt negate the weaknesses of some races (immobility is negated totally if you only have 50 yards to drive to the opponents base as we see on Steppes of War or Incineration Zone and at the same time Zerg mobility advantage is negated as well, because there is no room to use it). The real problem with the "map size imbalance" is that you actually have to THINK to recognize it, because that isnt made up of numbers. With siege tank damage, roach armor, roach food, reaper damage, ... its all numbers and numbers are easy to understand for most simple minds which whine about the imbalance. Personally I expect Zerg to become imbalanced once they can realize the full potential of the race on larger maps simply because the mobility advantage (Nydus worm somewhere close to the enemy) plus the instant reproduction of a destroyed 200/200 army from many bases will provide too much pressure once the Zerg has 4 bases or so. The current downsizing of siege tank damage will make these units somewhat useless, because the Terran will have to spread out to defend his bases due to the lack of an easy to build [PF isnt easy to build and its bulk doesnt allow placement everywhere] static defense that shoots ground. Coming from a guy who four days ago said that he doesn't even have the game. Why do you insist that you know so much about TvZ when you haven't even played much of any matchup? I'm sick of silver (ermm or bronze or nothing) terrans coming here and repeat the same meaningless cliches to zerg players who are trying so desperately to find a way of improving their game. Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 18:23 Rabiator wrote:
I am sorry, but I cant watch replays due to the simple fact of not owning the game...., blah blah blah I'm sorry I cannot take seriously the opinion of somebody who either has not got the game, or who has only recently got the game and is still in silver after 10 games, who definitely has not played zerg above bronze level, and who has given such ridiculously impractical advice to tried and tested zerg players about how to ZvT better (yeah.. I'm referring to one-liners such as "sac an overlord", etc etc.) You may watch your occassional VoDs, but to use what you saw in the VoD to tell zergs to "be ceartive", without having even touched the game, is just ignorant. Having a balance discussion with people who feel a need to deny the existence of an overpowered race, without any good reasons (they don't even own the game) and based solely on the generalisations they have about zerg and terran players in their minds (terrans are creative and zergs just try the same thing over and over), is purely meaningless Don't comment if you have no clue what you are on about *edit: Planetary Fortress not easy to build? Are you insane? You just click a button. 150 min 150 gas on top of your mining CC... what is "not easy" about that? That with 4 turrets, and then you have a virtually permanently indestructible expansion. And no, gathering scvs around the fortress so you can auto-repair is not hard either. To the other part of your post: Zerg recognise map imbalance, but it must be noted that some maps are actually very good for zerg (I love scrap station, have yet to lose to terran on that map in a ladder game). believe it or not, unlike what you thought, zerg think more than just the numbers on the units. We also think about the timing at which units are available (reaper would not be an issue if terran needs more than a tech lab to make them, thor would not be an issue if getting one out is as hard as getting out a broodlord), the scouting (which I described comprehensively in a previous thread, and which you replied with "sac an overlord"), and the economy (mules). Zerg players, contrary to your belief, is actually intelligent enough to think about all this. It's not about the numbers to many of us.
Obviously there is still the possiblity to watch VODs and I also had a beta key and thus do have some practical experience with SC2.
If you were really THINKING about your own arguments you would notice that Scrap Station has a HUGE rush distance, thus supporting my argument that the maps are simply too small. Most battles - even on this map with close air distances - are fought with ground forces.
The point of the Planetary Fortress NOT being easy to build is really easy to understand if you had bothered to understand that the PF as a STATIC GROUND DEFENSE [that is placed anywhere on the map and not simply at a mining location] is not really cheap or easy to build. Both other races have small static defenses which work against ground, but Terrans only have the huge PF, which takes most time of them all, is the most expensive one and also doesnt fit everywhere on a map. Oh and before you mention bunkers ... they are useless unless you put some infantry into them, so you are using part of your army and not simply an installation.
On September 04 2010 20:54 5unrise wrote:
Until you stop making baseless remarks, and put some efforts into TvZ on either side, nobody will take you seriously.
Hmmm ... so you are one of those "hero worshippers" who think that high rank on the ladder makes you more intelligent and thus more able to "judge" or to "notice critical points"? Personally I have found that sometimes it is necessary "to be one to know one" and sometimes you need to be the opposite to notice screws which are put in the wrong way. I prefer having a working and open minded brain over "discounting" the opinions of others flatly.
You are basically wasting an entire post by saying that I am not allowed to speak because I neither play T nor Z (and if I was just copper league you would use that to say that I couldnt post) instead of trying to prove why my arguments are flawed. You are stuck in the "Terran is OP" mantra and I hope you find a way out of it eventually ...
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United States47024 Posts
Can we please put this thread on hold until the patch projected in Situation Report 1 comes out?
The state of the game is going to change drastically--IMO the effects of the Terran nerfs from the upcoming patch need to be evaluated thoroughly before we start suggesting too many new ideas for change.
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really good read. and i thought just me has so hard time losing in sc2 (and idra ;D)
when i watch all those streams of T or even sometimes P players, after a loss theyre like: meh.
and zerg always rage around^^ maybe just because of the point that you get owned after you have the freedom to do something what you want^^ i bought the friggin CE and just rampaged through the campaign. it was awesome. but after i done the placements i barely got myself to play like it was day 1 for me at the beta, where one-base roach owned pretty much everything. i guess thats how T feel: lets play a game and own someone while ruining his evening ^^
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On September 05 2010 00:42 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 03:05 RampancyTW wrote:
I lost to one terran so far today
It was 100% my fault
my life is awesome
so is zerg
I <3 the swarm . Stop overstating the problems with zerg. Any MAJOR buffs to zerg or any particular early-game unit would break the game so hard in zerg's favor it's not even funny
I know I've got like a 90% winrate vs Terran and lost pretty much every game because both P and Z because I've only concentrated on the ZvT matchup but that doesn't mean the matchup is easier than the others o_O
EDIT: Oh I bumped this more than I thought, oh well the thread is awesome anyway.
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On August 31 2010 01:20 lew wrote:
I think this zerg whine will remain untill some korean pro starts showing the world how extremely strong zerg is. If zerg can hold the early terran gayness without too much suffer then zerg will be ahead. You can not beat a zerg in a macro game and every single zerg actually knows this. Zergs even admit it when I ask them what to do. Their answers are always the same: "harass more early game and try to beat me early game, do not try to macro-war". Zerg timing is the hardest to figure out, but when its figured out I don't see how a toss / terran player can beat a zerg.
I also foresee a lot of "tvz problem-threads" in the future, especially after the september patch.
Another thing: you will never hear a zerg talking about units such as banelings, broodlords and ultralisks. Deep inside they all know that those units are way too strong. If a zerg wins: np, good zerg player. If a terran wins: imba terran!
A zerg 200/200 should always lose to a terran 200/200 army, but this is not the case in sc2. I even saw zerg winning those battles with more then 120 supply left. They remake the same deadly army in one minute and GG.
What zerg players want is:
- whatever unit they make, it has to stand the terran / protoss units 1 by one. A roach should beat a marauder and 2 mutas should beat a thor.
- easier larvae mechanic.
- a scan or something like that, so they can see everything the other races do and make a counter in a few clicks (while toss and terran players actually have to build several buildings to do this).
On August 31 2010 01:15 Dente wrote:
I think this zerg whine will remain untill some korean pro starts showing the world how extremely strong zerg is. If zerg can hold the early terran gayness without too much suffer then zerg will be ahead. You can not beat a zerg in a macro game and every single zerg actually knows this. Zergs even admit it when I ask them what to do. Their answers are always the same: "harass more early game and try to beat my early game, do not try to macro-war". Zerg timing is the hardest to figure out, but when its figured out I don't see how a toss / terran player can beat a zerg.
I also foresee a lot of "tvz problem-threads" in the future, especially after the september patch.
Same person? You accidentally copy pasted the material to both your usernames 
Mr. Belgium
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Some things ive thought about for a while, if queen had enough energy for a tumour+inject when spawning, zerg could wall off the base with building/crawler to prevent a lot of harrass like the other races. (zealot/stalker/infantry/lings etc).
Another alternative is if zerg spawns with enough creep that it covers the closest ramp.
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On September 14 2010 03:08 lastmotion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 01:20 lew wrote:
I think this zerg whine will remain untill some korean pro starts showing the world how extremely strong zerg is. If zerg can hold the early terran gayness without too much suffer then zerg will be ahead. You can not beat a zerg in a macro game and every single zerg actually knows this. Zergs even admit it when I ask them what to do. Their answers are always the same: "harass more early game and try to beat me early game, do not try to macro-war". Zerg timing is the hardest to figure out, but when its figured out I don't see how a toss / terran player can beat a zerg.
I also foresee a lot of "tvz problem-threads" in the future, especially after the september patch.
Another thing: you will never hear a zerg talking about units such as banelings, broodlords and ultralisks. Deep inside they all know that those units are way too strong. If a zerg wins: np, good zerg player. If a terran wins: imba terran!
A zerg 200/200 should always lose to a terran 200/200 army, but this is not the case in sc2. I even saw zerg winning those battles with more then 120 supply left. They remake the same deadly army in one minute and GG.
What zerg players want is:
- whatever unit they make, it has to stand the terran / protoss units 1 by one. A roach should beat a marauder and 2 mutas should beat a thor.
- easier larvae mechanic.
- a scan or something like that, so they can see everything the other races do and make a counter in a few clicks (while toss and terran players actually have to build several buildings to do this). Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 01:15 Dente wrote:
I think this zerg whine will remain untill some korean pro starts showing the world how extremely strong zerg is. If zerg can hold the early terran gayness without too much suffer then zerg will be ahead. You can not beat a zerg in a macro game and every single zerg actually knows this. Zergs even admit it when I ask them what to do. Their answers are always the same: "harass more early game and try to beat my early game, do not try to macro-war". Zerg timing is the hardest to figure out, but when its figured out I don't see how a toss / terran player can beat a zerg.
I also foresee a lot of "tvz problem-threads" in the future, especially after the september patch. Same person? You accidentally copy pasted the material to both your usernames Mr. Belgium
Maybe he forgot the quoting? 
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On September 04 2010 23:08 Cyuss wrote:
Even I'm just a gold player I'd like to give my comment about this as I think ballance should count for all players, not only Korean Pro players who obviously run fine with zerg.
Why do ppl keep sayin' that? It's just not true...
Korean Zerg-players aren't miraculously better with Zerg, they have the exact same Problems. Just look at the GSL! And with a tournament of that caliber, you pretty much have to think every even decent player tries to qualify and tries to play to the best of their potential. Now look at the number of Zerg-players that qualified and that advanced so far, even though most Zerg-players in the GSL are former SC:BW-Pro's and/or other extremely talented pro-gamers, like CheckPrime. I mean: In all the round of 64 ONE ZvZ! Just look at how many PvP's we've had so far, like 5 or more?
Or just look at CellaWeRRa's or PhoenixWeRRa's streams - both Korean Zergs and very talented, yet they struggle A LOT vs Terran.
It's just not true that in Korea Z is balanced, because they play it better. In korea, it's pretty much agreed on that P>T>Z. The only reason why Protoss isn't doing so well outside Korea, is because Korean Players play Toss very eco-heavy, whilst overseas, Toss mostly do 1-base-oriented plays or timing-attacks. In the GSL though, it looks like T>P, but that's mostly because of timing-attacks and doesn't really reflect macro-oriented playstyles, cuz in a macro-game in the lategame, P just owns EVERYTHING!
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so, top 200 list is out again for North America. Now kOre is the only Zerg in the top 20. This is so sad. Though Terran players I'm sure will find this totally normal.
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On September 04 2010 23:08 Cyuss wrote:
The opinion I'd liek to add here is that in my opinion Blizzard is just more creative with the Terrans. They ahve a better imagination fo hwoa future Human race should fight while obviously having problems to develope some good fantasies about what the otehr races should be able to do. Nearly every Terran Unit has a skill to activate, while those little edges are often boring or less effective for the other racs. U even see that int he unit design. Already the helion upgrade gives you a pretty blue flame, while Hydralisks can just upgrade the range e.g.. Beside speedlings i'd not know where there is put so much lvoe int he units as in the Terrans.
I found this to be one of the most interesting and honest points in this discussion, that regardless of the balance issues between the Zerg and Terran races (and whether or not these are perceived or real), it does seem like a little more imagination and creativity was put into the Terran race than either of the other two. On the surface that probably reads as a pretty vague generalization, but in all honesty, that's how the game feels. I practically get the impression that in the process of crafting this game, the designers thought of a lot of really cool ideas for Terran players to try out, and couldn't stop coming up with them- which, don't get me wrong, is great! However, it feels like there was less innovation on the side of the other two races. I think more thought was put into how to make all the elements of the game and each race look really cool and function exquisitely well, but this doesn't matter to me as much as the fact that Zerg has simply a smaller amount of toys to play with, and Protoss has alot of the same ones, or ones that just come in a slightly different package from BW.
I don't mean to complain by any means, I love this game. But I suppose as a primarily Zerg player, i just feel a little bummed at times, because this game seems like it was made for Terran players. And while, in a sense, we all are if we make it through the single player, it just bums me out that i don't have as many interesting units to play with. I love Nydus Worms and Neural Parasite and Tunneling Claws as much as any other Zerg player, but I don't know if that's enough to satisfy me when I feel like the race I play has been given the smallest opportunity to express itself, particularly in this match-up and with the current map pool. Regardless of how these things translate to the specific metagame that's going on right now, I can't help but notice a nagging suspicion that Cyuss is right, albeit a little sappy, in saying that not so much love was put into the Zerg race as the Terran.
I'm just interested to see what other people think about this.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img823.imageshack.us/i/facepaml.jpg/)
