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Z actually got an easier time dealing with SCV now because...
1. SCV only got 45 HP
2. Roach, the new tier 1.5 unit deals full damage to SCV
3. Baneling, another 1.5 unit, also rapes SCV
4. Hydra, again dealing full dmg to SCV.
Wow my fighting units do fulldmg to workers, great its balanced...
I know that, but Autorepair on Thor wont be weaker because my Hydras can kill the SCVs...Its not like terrans would A-move the SCVs during the attack... Oh I forgot they can do that due to the autorepair, but seriously u sound like u think the complains concerning the SCV beeing a fighting units and not a healing unit with "NO" priority of beeing attacked.
but offensively they are unwieldy compared to SC1.
Try to use repairing SCVs they are great.
I dont think SCV is overpowered in anyway. But the they should be on a high attack priority.
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On August 31 2010 01:44 ch4ppi wrote:Show nested quote +Z actually got an easier time dealing with SCV now because...
1. SCV only got 45 HP
2. Roach, the new tier 1.5 unit deals full damage to SCV
3. Baneling, another 1.5 unit, also rapes SCV
4. Hydra, again dealing full dmg to SCV. Wow my fighting units do fulldmg to workers, great its balanced... I know that, but Autorepair on Thor wont be weaker because my Hydras can kill the SCVs...Its not like terrans would A-move the SCVs during the attack... Oh I forgot they can do that due to the autorepair, but seriously u sound like u think the complains concerning the SCV beeing a fighting units and not a healing unit with "NO" priority of beeing attacked. Try to use repairing SCVs they are great.
I dont think SCV is overpowered in anyway. But the they should be on a high attack priority.
They need to scrap the entire attack priority thing and just have your units attack the nearest enemy object.
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That wouldnt solve a thing, would it?
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@ch4ppi,
FYI, you can do mass SCV repair in SC1 too and your units auto target the attacking unit, not the SCV. no one ever complained it was imba back then.
in late game, SCV repair doesnt really make much of a difference. it matters the most in early game. and as i said earlier, killing SCV is alot easier now.
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On August 31 2010 02:05 ch4ppi wrote:
That wouldnt solve a thing, would it?
Except the fact that units will now attack the SCV's repairing a thor/planetary fortress instead of dancing around like a 70's disco hero dying because the AI can't attack the repaired unit.
Ever tried attack moving near a planetary fortress? They will swarm around the building which won't get killed due to the scv's repairing. They won't attack the units attacking them due to the huuuuuge priority of a fortress.
This doesn't make sence because terran would benefit from the planetary fortress or repairing mech unit regardless. Now those units and structure benefit IMMENSELY due to the stupid priority AI.
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@Chaos,
lings were never meant to take down a PF in the first place. the purpose of lings is to surround enemy units and let the hydras and banelings dish out the damage.
ofc in the case of PF that is no longer needed so lings are there just to be fodder.
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On August 31 2010 02:18 dybydx wrote:
@ch4ppi,
FYI, you can do mass SCV repair in SC1 too and your units auto target the attacking unit, not the SCV. no one ever complained it was imba back then.
in late game, SCV repair doesnt really make much of a difference. it matters the most in early game. and as i said earlier, killing SCV is alot easier now.
In bw no one complained because there are no terran units that are capable of destroying an entire army if it's being repaired by 10 scvs, and can come in 7 mins.
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@Assured,
if ur referring to mass SCV repairing 1 Thor, that build is more of an oddity than the norm. you are much more likely to see bunk rush in BW repaired by 3 or 4 SCVs than the 1 Thor with 4 scv push.
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On August 31 2010 01:20 lew wrote:
A zerg 200/200 should always lose to a terran 200/200 army, but this is not the case in sc2. I even saw zerg winning those battles with more then 120 supply left. They remake the same deadly army in one minute and GG.
If a terran with 200/200 loses to a Zerg 200/200 the skill difference between the two players is so big that it's a miracle terran even got to 200/200. 200/200 for T is so much stronger, you can't really argue with that.
And "remake the same deadly army in one minute"? to remake 100 supply by zerglings you need 100 larvae stored up and 5000minerals. To remake 100 supply by hydras you need 5000 minerals and 2500gas and 50 larvae. When do you think a Z has the time to get that much? Seriously?
On August 31 2010 01:20 lew wrote:
What zerg players want is:
- whatever unit they make, it has to stand the terran / protoss units 1 by one. A roach should beat a marauder and 2 mutas should beat a thor.
We want Z counters to be as good as T counters. Roach does not counter marines. Bling/Sling doesn't really counter MM ball. Marauders hardcounter roaches. Hellions totally annihilate zerglings (even with speed, otherwise LOL). I can continue about the counter thing but I think you see my point.
On August 31 2010 01:20 lew wrote:
- a scan or something like that, so they can see everything the other races do and make a counter in a few clicks (while toss and terran players actually have to build several buildings to do this).
Oh yeah. swapping two buildings takes shorter time than the 90 (!!!) second time a spire takes. IF you are on the right tier. But it doesn't really matter since a T can sit in his base until he is ready, so no worries. And then terran has even better scouting abilities than Z (even though Z is the reactionary race, wtf?). Scan or just build a barrack and float it around the enemy base. A barrack is twice as fast as an ovie and has 5x the HP. And don't talk about ovie speed because it needs lair and upgrade, while barrack needs.... command center?
Come on don't try to say that Z is better than T in these things, it just makes you look stupid. Come with valid arguments with backup instead, or at least listen to the Z.
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@skirmisher,
T always had floating rax and scan in SC1, in fact T used to scan Z alot more because of lack of mules. T's scouring ability did not improve in SC2, in fact Z's tech hiding ability improved due to new creep mechanic.
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On August 31 2010 01:20 lew wrote:
I think this zerg whine will remain untill some korean pro starts showing the world how extremely strong zerg is. If zerg can hold the early terran gayness without too much suffer then zerg will be ahead. You can not beat a zerg in a macro game and every single zerg actually knows this. Zergs even admit it when I ask them what to do. Their answers are always the same: "harass more early game and try to beat me early game, do not try to macro-war". Zerg timing is the hardest to figure out, but when its figured out I don't see how a toss / terran player can beat a zerg.
I also foresee a lot of "tvz problem-threads" in the future, especially after the september patch.
Another thing: you will never hear a zerg talking about units such as banelings, broodlords and ultralisks. Deep inside they all know that those units are way too strong. If a zerg wins: np, good zerg player. If a terran wins: imba terran!
A zerg 200/200 should always lose to a terran 200/200 army, but this is not the case in sc2. I even saw zerg winning those battles with more then 120 supply left. They remake the same deadly army in one minute and GG.
I foresee the exact opposite, why in the hell wouldnt Terrans not be able to outmacro a zerg by the late game ? As of now, TvZs end way before that happens, but with mules and extremely safe and strong expansions (see PF, free bunkers, super strong turrets, upgrades for said buildings that are as of now rarely researched (I believe)) I see no reasons for Ts not to be able to outmacro a zerg, as some1 said, you cant just morph 100 supply of hydras/ultras/broodlords in a pinch, beside 200/200 battles usualy end with a 80 food supply zerg(see ~80 workers + a couple queens) against the very solid terran mech units and a bio ball to be shortly rebuilded.
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Wow, great post with awsome points, I think the roles have almost been switched were zerg turtle and terran are the agressors. But the zerg arent (imo) meant to turtle, so it just dosnt work out making zerg a difficult race to play
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On August 31 2010 11:21 heavynin3 wrote:
Wow, great post with awsome points, I think the roles have almost been switched were zerg turtle and terran are the agressors. But the zerg arent (imo) meant to turtle, so it just dosnt work out making zerg a difficult race to play
Blizzard maps are just too tiny, so Terrans can easily pressure Zerg very early while there is no defense up. Queen larva injection, Chrono Boost and Terran Reactor are all designed to speed up the game and that is what Blizzard intended. They are under the illusion that quick games with only one battle between the full armies of two sides are interesting for more than just a few months. IMO they are wrong, because Starcraft is supposed to be an rtS and that S stands for STRATEGY. There is no strategy on tiny maps, just massing the "killer unit" and running the opponent over in a 1a2a3a. One word: booooooorinnng.
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On August 31 2010 02:26 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 02:18 dybydx wrote:
@ch4ppi,
FYI, you can do mass SCV repair in SC1 too and your units auto target the attacking unit, not the SCV. no one ever complained it was imba back then.
in late game, SCV repair doesnt really make much of a difference. it matters the most in early game. and as i said earlier, killing SCV is alot easier now. In bw no one complained because there are no terran units that are capable of destroying an entire army if it's being repaired by 10 scvs, and can come in 7 mins.
And there was no auto repair. you had to manually click on the desired unit, and unless you didnt macro, you couldnt do this well.
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You act like Thors are useful.
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On August 31 2010 13:13 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 11:21 heavynin3 wrote:
Wow, great post with awsome points, I think the roles have almost been switched were zerg turtle and terran are the agressors. But the zerg arent (imo) meant to turtle, so it just dosnt work out making zerg a difficult race to play Blizzard maps are just too tiny, so Terrans can easily pressure Zerg very early while there is no defense up. Queen larva injection, Chrono Boost and Terran Reactor are all designed to speed up the game and that is what Blizzard intended. They are under the illusion that quick games with only one battle between the full armies of two sides are interesting for more than just a few months. IMO they are wrong, because Starcraft is supposed to be an rtS and that S stands for STRATEGY. There is no strategy on tiny maps, just massing the "killer unit" and running the opponent over in a 1a2a3a. One word: booooooorinnng.
I don't get this post at all.
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Man MasterAsia you are so much better than me, I was C- in brood war, zerg.
I completely agree with you on the comparisons, I have terran friend, who I've played 20+ games with him, and never lost in brood war, he was terrible, had 2000 minerals in first 8 minutes. I enjoyed Zerg then, Lurker contain, 3 hatch muta, PLAGU!
I then got the beta, and played, got to platinum, and enjoyed the easy game, and beating my same terran friend. Next week, he plays me and he beats me, and I have no idea whats going on, I rematch him, I have double his apm, I do everything, but his army just stim A move, is just oo strong, and his macro sucks. He is now teaching me how to play zerg ,which really pisses me off.
Now, We are both in diamond, I'm 500 points 38-34 while he is 71-63 650 points, and he is telling me how to play my own race, and this is how his advice sounds.
"Just make more roaches, they counter MMM"
Every week, this game just gets worse, the 5 rax reaper is this weeks plan.
ZvT is just terrible on ladder, its me simply winning due to the game branching into late game, or getting an early loss, just because i didn't see a simple add- on a stargate.
Why do we need to play this retarded match up!
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On August 31 2010 14:45 Nephrahim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 13:13 Rabiator wrote:On August 31 2010 11:21 heavynin3 wrote:
Wow, great post with awsome points, I think the roles have almost been switched were zerg turtle and terran are the agressors. But the zerg arent (imo) meant to turtle, so it just dosnt work out making zerg a difficult race to play Blizzard maps are just too tiny, so Terrans can easily pressure Zerg very early while there is no defense up. Queen larva injection, Chrono Boost and Terran Reactor are all designed to speed up the game and that is what Blizzard intended. They are under the illusion that quick games with only one battle between the full armies of two sides are interesting for more than just a few months. IMO they are wrong, because Starcraft is supposed to be an rtS and that S stands for STRATEGY. There is no strategy on tiny maps, just massing the "killer unit" and running the opponent over in a 1a2a3a. One word: booooooorinnng. I don't get this post at all.
Zerg are complaining about Terrans being overpowered. IMO thats not entirely true, because if you take big battles between the two sides they can go either way according to army composition and micro.
Zerg are hindered in their development by very fast harrassment through two units: Rapers and Hellions. Both have bonus damage against light and easily kill Drones fast if you cant prevent them from getting there. Zerg are limited in their building placement by the creep spread and thus cant wall off as the Terrans do or even put a Spine Crawler close to a ramp or cliff, so that is a clear disadvantage in the first few minutes. This does get neutralized by several abilities, but getting there will require TIME. Just compare some of the BW maps with the SC2 ladder maps and you will most often see MUCH bigger center areas and thus a much longer rush distance.
If you use a larger map the Terran harassing units take more time getting to the Zerg and thus the Zerg will have more defensive units and should be able to fend off harrass more easily. Thus the Zerg wont be hampered in his economy and can develop "normally". Easy, isn't it? You dont even need to fiddle around with any unit stats, so it is a simple solution as well. Even Protoss can't proxy-cheese as eeasily, because scouting the enemy will take longer and delaying the Gateway too much is bad. Waiting for Warpgate is possible, but it will only be Warpgate units and those arent a problem so far (at least I see no whine-threads on that on TL). So increasing map size is not a problem for either matchup.
Larger maps also offer another benefit for the viewers, because of the larger center and the bigger spread of bases you have a bigger front to defend / assault. Thus you will probably not see 200/200 armies clashing with each other as much, but rather many smaller attacks at several spots. Controlling these multiple attacks will take a lot of skill and will be more fun to watch than seeing 4 Colossi roasting 30 Hydras in 10 seconds. Tactical placements, laying traps and luring the enemy into them and outflanking him will give sooo much more options compared to the current "lets take my whole army and smash down his front door" style of battles. Those are boring after you have seen a few of them. Easy to understand, eh? On Steppes of War the Terran just needs a few Tanks plus a few Bunkers and Turrets to control the entire center of the map. That doesnt leave any options for the Zerg, because there is no way he can outflank the Terran. Make the center much bigger and the Terran has to spread out more and the Zerg can crack the defense easier or it doesnt even make sense.
Oh and - another spectator POV - with larger maps the matches will last longer and thus a Bo3 will take a lot longer than it usually does now, so you are getting more entertainment out of it.
Now lets look at Blizzards side of it: They have already catered to "action junkies" in WoW with the absolute need to "balance" the classes. They obviously wanted to "show off" all the new neat features in Starcraft 2 in short battles and thus the small maps were born. Big strategic battles are not wanted, when all you want to do is showing how awesomely the Colossus can roast light units or how awesome Blink Stalkers are or how nice cliffjumping Reapers can be. This is exactly what the Battle Reports were designed for, but the size of the maps has stuck with us and only a few of them give a hint of what it can be on öarger maps. Desert Oasis and Scrap Station have a loooong walking distance, but the air distance is small, so people would be dumb not to try and use it. At least Scrap Station is considered a "Zerg favored map" (as much as it can be), but Banshee rush (4-5 Banshees instead of just 1-2) is still able to level a Zerg quite easily IMO. If you had a map with a rush distance like on these maps for BOTH air and ground it would lessen that kind of early harrass as well, because you have more time to prepare and Zerg need that time. Even though a lot of Blizzards maps are "numerically large" they arent really, because the bases arent tucked into the far corners as much as they can be.
Blizzard wants to turn SC2 into an eSport and this apparently needs fast paced action for the current generation of kiddies ... you know the one with the attention span of a goldfish. Long and strategic games arent on their menu, even though Starcraft is an RTS (S=strategy).
There you have it ... the loooong version, I hope its simple enough to understand.
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i agree with Rabiator that alot of the current problems are map related. alot of the famous maps in BW had very large openings in the center that allow Z many options to surround T.
although back then there was dark swarm so Z could just 1a into the T ball.
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On August 31 2010 16:59 dybydx wrote:
i agree with Rabiator that alot of the current problems are map related. alot of the famous maps in BW had very large openings in the center that allow Z many options to surround T.
although back then there was dark swarm so Z could just 1a into the T ball.
You really come off as wanting to blame everything but a possible Terran imbalance. (not that I disagree that the current map pool is total BS if you are zerg)
In BW all the units were also 2d, so you didnt have the problem of an SCV hiding behind a thor/planetary fortress, being a total pain in the ass to click on. Not to mention autorepair taking away ANY sort of micro skill needed to do the repairing...
So defilers autocast dark swarm in BW if you attack moved them? I don't remember that...
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EPT
