EPTZ v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 60
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moosh
United States118 Posts
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Yttrasil
Sweden651 Posts
Reaper speed makes somewhat of a difference if you go for fast expand but in all other cases it's pretty neglectable and will still give terran a huge lead if correctly executed and bunker rushes are not much different either especially when used to just halt my expansion, targeting the building scv can be such a bitch sometimes makes me cry when I think about it. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 28 2010 11:41 Traksor wrote: Edit 2 : My question is : why the *** hydralisks are still light units ? I mean cmon the elite warriors of zerg getting pushed back by a bunch of hellions. This makes no sense to me as well. In SC1, hydralisks were medium. Now they got moved up a tier, and are apparently bigger and bulkier, but somehow are "light" now? On August 28 2010 13:13 kingcomrade wrote: I just can't see a 5 second delay on reapers making an even slight difference. Usually people only make 2-5, so even at the max if he makes all 5 he's less than half a minute behind on production from normal. Those 5 seconds can mean the difference between him getting to your base and killing drones, or killing zerglings--especially if you went hatch-before-pool. | ||
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brad drac
Ireland202 Posts
On August 28 2010 08:23 StupidFatHobbit wrote: Yup, as evidenced by the dozen or so T posts in between yours and mine that are trying to tell all the zerg players how to play. But those are all over TL regardless, at least blizzard is taking a first step by toning tanks down. I'd still really like to see NP made usable again though! Totally agreed. Been playing random/mainly terran since live where I played mainly zerg/some terran in beta, and I can stay at around 700 points diamond with random. Not the best player, but I'm not some bronze moron either - and Terran is WAY easier. If you think otherwise, you simply haven't played all three races enough - and I mean in 1v1, not fucking team game bullshit. I'm on the opposite side of the fence here. I'm also mediocre diamond random, and I actually find zerg easier to play than terran. Making all your units from the same structure type, including supply, makes it easier for me to manage late game macro by a considerable amount. Spewing larva isn't as easy as mule spamming, but the rhythmic timing of doing it every 45 seconds just kind of works for me. Besides, missing one or two means creep tumours or transfuse. Protoss are probably easier(one base to VICTORY!) but I don't struggle that much with zerg. | ||
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Forlorn
Korea (South)69 Posts
If I try to play a more standard game then I feel like I am forced into muta-speedling while terran can just do whatever the F they want and it works pretty good. I haven't encountered a lot of ghosts but I could definitely see that working really well. I am actually in favor of a tier 1 hydralisk den again like in BW. I think that would add a lot of dynamics to this match up. Also hydras need a speed upgrade too, they are just so worthless off creep. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 30 2010 12:14 Forlorn wrote: MasterAsia does have very valid points. I feel like almost all of this is true too. It used to be that zerg was the one doing the harassing and they could gain map control; now it is the other way around. I do get very angry at this match-up that I often just do baneling busts to get fast wins, but as noted, any good terran will scout this and know exactly how to react to it. This alll changed because Blizzard decided to invent Macro mechanics for all races, Warp Gates for Protoss and give us only tiny maps to fight on. Oh and massively relying on bonus damage also does a lot. | ||
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
On August 28 2010 18:28 TheYango wrote: Plus, it isn't 5 seconds for the whole thing. It's 5 seconds PER reaper.Those 5 seconds can mean the difference between him getting to your base and killing drones, or killing zerglings--especially if you went hatch-before-pool. The difference in time for massing 6 reapers is 30 seconds. That's big. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On August 30 2010 12:22 Iggyhopper wrote: Plus, it isn't 5 seconds for the whole thing. It's 5 seconds PER reaper. The difference in time for massing 6 reapers is 30 seconds. That's big. thats assuming they build the 6 from one barracks. from 3 barracks the time gain would be 15 seconds from 5 (which is the 5 rax reaper >.>) you pretty much only gain 5 seconds. again 5 seconds increase to reaper build time is not addressing the problem. its just trying to avoid it yet still be able to say, "we helped zergs early game by nerfing T" | ||
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InfiniteIce
United States794 Posts
On August 30 2010 12:22 Iggyhopper wrote: Plus, it isn't 5 seconds for the whole thing. It's 5 seconds PER reaper. The difference in time for massing 6 reapers is 30 seconds. That's big. Keep in mind these are all "in game" seconds. For matches on the "faster" game setting (ladder...etc., basically "real-time") this is actually ~21.5 seconds. Sure, it's big, but the reasoning behind the time increase is significant and self-evidentiary. + Show Spoiler [Reaper reasoning from Blizz] + Reapers against zerg are stronger than expected. Due to the zealot build time increase, reapers would be a bit problematic in combination with proxy barracks, bunkers, and/or marauders against protoss. Therefore, we have decided to increase the build time of reapers as well from 40 to 45 seconds | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
Blizzards explanation of Reapers being strong against Protoss is just laughable, because one or two Stalkers really shut down any kind of harrass with Reapers easily. | ||
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
On August 30 2010 12:54 Rabiator wrote: But we can't just get zealot first and do some early pressure, it's just one unit that has us contained. That's whack. It's not like ZvP because zerglings can't cliff-walk.They could have achieved the same results (5 seconds more time for Reaper to reach the Zerg base) by simply increasing the map size. That would also "nerf" Hellion harrass. Blizzards explanation of Reapers being strong against Protoss is just laughable, because one or two Stalkers really shut down any kind of harrass with Reapers easily. | ||
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
On August 30 2010 12:54 Rabiator wrote: I don't want every map to be a copy of every other map. True, maps do balance any slight imbalances, but let's work on units first.They could have achieved the same results (5 seconds more time for Reaper to reach the Zerg base) by simply increasing the map size. That would also "nerf" Hellion harrass. Blizzards explanation of Reapers being strong against Protoss is just laughable, because one or two Stalkers really shut down any kind of harrass with Reapers easily. | ||
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hdkhang
Australia183 Posts
About the only downsides to reapers is that they are fragile and can't shoot air. Otherwise they would be the only units Terran needs. Range 4.5 is not an impediment to a unit that can move quickly and that can sack buildings lickity split. Blizzard need to clearly define the roles of each unit. Why does a ranged unit that can cliff hop need a speed boost? With that logic, they should give zerglings an upgrade that allows them to cliff jump, they have wings afterall and their speed boost costs 100/100 as opposed to reapers nitro packs only costing 50/50 --> in essence a giveaway. The reaper is great at harrassment, it is great at scouting, but somehow that wasn't enough so Blizzard felt they needed a special building destroying capability for free. | ||
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jules_ce
South Africa4 Posts
On August 15 2010 10:44 Grimjim wrote: Holy shit. This guy is the 5th best Zerg in the USA and he still gets flamed by Platinum level Terrans on TeamLiquid. Have you no shame, Terran players? You're the Night Elves of Starcraft ll. +1 to the Warcraft III deja vu...  | ||
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Ciddass
Germany149 Posts
reaper nerf will change nothing. in the hands of a good T it`ll still be "make ling speed or you will die". the funny thing is nowadays it`s 5rax reaper so your ling speed is useless (assuming decent T micro). alright so you HAVE to make roaches. what a smooth transition for T to just kill you with 5rax marauders. reapers delay the only thing Z have to do anything, to move 5 steps out of their base, the mutalisk. 8 mutalisks die to a missile turret that isbeing repaired. let`s assume the 5 seconds build time thing will help (i can`t see how it would). there is still the hellion. you will get lingspeed as a standard Z because you have to.you will add 1-3 spine crawlers because you have to.T will get blue flame because it`s great. Z HAS to get roaches to stay alive. (skipping roaches and getting banelings is actually the better choice in theory thinking of the midgame but they´re to slow without speed upgrade). in the meantime T is already 2port banshee teching.you managed to stay alive with roaches and get your lair up (you`ve "only" lost 7 drones and 12 lings to the hellion harass). you NEED to get the slow anti air -> mutalisk because you NEED mapcontrol and hydralisks die to blueflame helions. if you`re still alive you`re a decent Z. T throws vikings at you. throws cloaked banshees at you.is dropping you with medivacs. is getting his expo up. has built 1-2 tanks long ago. some marauders (lol roaches) and marines. what a cliff at natural ? - >tank drop with 3 marines -> natural dead. no cliff ? death push with hellions marauder marines and tanks. 13 minutes played. i`m so curious to see how blizz will fix this. at the moment it`s a catastrophe. edit: i forgot the free bunker at Z`s natural, my bad. | ||
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
this matchup is soo boring I die a little inside everytime some scrubterran beats me. PF and turrets especially piss me off... you cannot take it down, seriously what kills this thing? Terran has to be harder to play, they need to fix orbital command (punish ppl with sloppy macro, just like with queen injections). remove PF , nerf towers and remove scv autorepair, make scv's attackable when they build things... Z is broken right now, so hilarious that a terran can open basiclly any way he wants and I have pretty much no way of knowing what he will do, I have to counter some stuff blindly, because if I dont, auto-loss, guess what he made banshees instaed, oh gg then...happens few games but its still retarded. in close positions or on steps of war i have to blindly counter marauder hellion rush for all my econ or I am dead, and I will most likely die to it anyway, even if all I do is prepare for an attack I havent scouted yet.. the upcoming patc will fix nothing at all. reapers slightly slower to build? gee wizz that will fix the fundamental errors in zerg synergy and scouting and difference in macromechanics...NO. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 30 2010 22:28 sylverfyre wrote: So, can someone answer to me why roach speed needs to require lair tech? Would SERIOUSLY help zerg's early game mobility (which was a core concept of the race in BW) if they could actaully send roaches out and not have them totally suck at doing anything besides "lol get kited by reapers/stalkers/marauders/basically anything at all" Yeah I think this too is a remnaint from the period where roaches were OP and 1 supply, removing the lair requirement would help alot as well. As well as making Roaches weaker and cost 1 supply.. | ||
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StarcraftQuebec
Canada95 Posts
On August 30 2010 22:37 Shikyo wrote: Some of Zerg's problems are that they're the only race without a unit that can attack while cloaked or a cliffwalking unit. Both other races have one. Oh right, but the real problem is Hydralisk, partially because they're light Light. It'd fit the Zerg a lot better if it was tier 1, 1 supply instead of 2, was slightly faster, had 60 hp, wasn't light, and only had 7-8 damage. true... | ||
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