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On August 05 2010 07:37 Slayer91 wrote:
Funsies:
Step 1: Make banelings
Step 2: Upgrade overlord drop.
Step 3: Drop 4 in each mineral line boom boom bye bye scvs!
Step 4: Drop over his marines using the baneling carpet bomb trick from psyonic reaver's youtube and then SZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZSSSSZ
OMGWTFBBQ!!
This actually is seriously good against terran.
CAN YOU POST THE LINK PLS.!
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From my perspective as a spectator it seems that only Terrans seem to be doing harrass regularly. Especially the early Hellion harrass needs to be controlled by the Zerg or he gets so much behind in economy that he will never catch up. But how can a Zerg do something comparable? Terrans are walled in and might have sieged tanks at the front, so sneaking and even burrowing past will not work. So the only ways to harrass left to Zerg are air attacks or ground attacks which bypass the defensive lines (drops / Nydus). There are two reasony why this isnt done atm: 1. Zerg players are too greedy and think that a Nydus worm is expensive (it costs only as much as a shuttle and has a much bigger capacity), 2. the maps are too small to make the attacking army of the defender be able to defend against these drops too easily.
So how *should* you go about harrassing? What should you expect to gain from it?
- control early Hellion harrass
- choose Nydus or Overlord as harrass mechanic
- prepare a few units for harrass with special skills (burrow for roaches / infestors comes to mind)
- try to harrass at many places
- Expectations: pulling the main army of the opponent away from the front (this wont work with baneling bombs on mineral lines)
- Expectations: forcing the opponent to build lots of detecting units / structures or using scans (you need burrow for this and especially the burrowed casting of infected Terrans practically requires this, but large main bases offer A LOT of places to hide)
- Expectations: economic damage by hitting the mineral line directly (baneling drop, Mutalisks, Infestor with Fungal Growth and Infested Terran)
Harrass is a lost art to current Zerg players, but it is this tactic which unnerves an opponent into making mistakes. Against a Terran especially it causes the relatively immobile mech to keep moving and thus not entrenched into defensive positions. That adds up into a pure tactical advantage for the Zerg, but the current Zerg tactics only revolve around the "brute force approach". Using harrass should be quite nice as Zerg, because they have several units which seem quite efficient for it. Infestors and Banelings have AoE effects and seem good for worker harras and Ultralisks are awesome even in very small numbers against buildings (and thus harrass would work in late game as well).
So get out and practics harrass you Zerg players ... and stop thinking everything that does not directly increase your damage (burrow, Nydus worms) as expensive.
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Russian Federation28 Posts
I was trying a few intresting tactics and had a real success with them:
1. Going roaches with or w/o natural when hitting a lair you do Burrow + burrow move without move speed upgrade because it does not affect burrow move, split roaches in 2-3 group with 3-5 roaches each and go to different parts of opponent bases, especially effective when your opponent got an expo w/o photons or turrets.
Whenever you know that your army is going to be scanned - burrow and run from scan zone, you really could survive will all your roaches even after this scan. and btw, scan is still 270 minerals -> almost 4 roaches.
You could freak out your opponent alot by popping out and down all the time, its very hard to T to counter it.
The point is to get burrow move asap instead of upgrading roach move speed, it saves you 120 secs!!! or around that
2. Pop out Nydus near your opponents main, get queen to Nydus location and spawn 2 creep tumors to cover the enemy base in creep extremely fast to make your attack much more viable, also setting route from hatcheries to Nydus and this way you are getting "Zerg warpgates"
3. Drop 4 hydras in mineral line while "playing" with enemy army near natural, to not let him leave the position. And similarly you could do mini drop with like 8 lings and 4 hydras to force opponent withdraw his forces from nat and then attack the nat with main army.
This one is not very original but it is underused currently.
4. Baneling minefields. I really love to burrow 6--8 banelings in places where T is sure to pass by and not to scan. Place it in places like right after his natural, some ramp near his base, where he does not expect to see such a things, its xtremely effective especially vs MMM or Sentries/HT.
Just imagine 6 banelings unburrow when bunch of HTs/Sentries/Zealots/Marines/Marauders are passing by! And with SC2 movement mechanics they will surely be clumped up. with +1 attack i think 2 banelings kill 1 HT? or you need +2 attack for that after all??
5. Also it is nice to burrow ultras. in end game when opponents goes to attack you ) this helps ultras to get close to your enemy instantly.
6. Using infestors to draw attacks from siege tanks. Its surprisingly that infestor eggs have high target priority and tanks tend to shoot them all the time!!! And splash T's army, its very nice thing imo.
Thats just mine 30 cents.
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On August 05 2010 07:46 Pandain wrote:
This is used already but really needs to be a main strat/tactic of zergs. Sending an infestor and burrowing it and going to their mineral line. Either you can take out like 10 scvs over time/right away or they waste a scan on a single infestor. Then they have to get it too. Pretty good deal, no?
If a Terran duzn't have turrets at his min lines, i'd rather use muta haras. Mutas don't cost as much gas, and aren't quite so squishy like infestors.
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On August 05 2010 15:27 Vengeaner wrote:
I was trying a few intresting tactics and had a real success with them:
1. Going roaches with or w/o natural when hitting a lair you do Burrow + burrow move without move speed upgrade because it does not affect burrow move, split roaches in 2-3 group with 3-5 roaches each and go to different parts of opponent bases, especially effective when your opponent got an expo w/o photons or turrets.
Whenever you know that your army is going to be scanned - burrow and run from scan zone, you really could survive will all your roaches even after this scan. and btw, scan is still 270 minerals -> almost 4 roaches.
You could freak out your opponent alot by popping out and down all the time, its very hard to T to counter it.
That actually doesn't sound too bad, you just need some crawlers to hold the MM ball up just enough to get your roaches back if he goes base race mode.
I tinkered with the corruption on overseers, and ya it's just cost-prohibitive...if only if stopped all things the building could do (imagine hitting nexuses and stopping gathering...now THAT would be OP)
I have another strategy I'm starting to experiment with (one that's a lot more useful), but it has to be put to better players and have it go to my late-game transition ideas
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I'm sorry but I think I don't share the optism of numerous of these tactics and stuff you guys are talking about, to me it sounds like you are just joking around. A scan isn't 270 minerals btw.
Any type of 1 base play is very easily shut down. It was maybe strong during first week of beta when just making Roaches gave you a few wins but other then that, the only really solid 1 base play is still the all-in baneling bust. You don't see any Zerg going 1 base against any decent player, because how weak Zerg is on 1 base and how easy it is to defend against it.
Why is it easy to defend against you might wonder. Well, Zerg is the only race that has to outexpand their opponent to stand a chance in the long run. So, naturally they expand in the start, but if you don't see an expansion, you don't even have to run up into their base, you will instantly know that some type of 1 base play is coming. So what are the paths that a Zerg can take? Roaches, Banelings, Mass speedling, all countered by blocking your entrance points properly. Bunkering and cannoning is easy and relatively cheap way of blocking off an 1 base Zerg.
Then theres fast lair 1 base play where you go Mutas or Hydralisks, or Roaches with upgrades. Even mass speedling into Nydus Worm is something I've personally tried, with little success though. 1 base into muta was viable in TvZ in BW, but not in SC2, partly because of the new gas mechanic, but partly also because of the fact that you can't micro them around, making Mutas alot less cost effective. The problem with Mutalisks also is that they come out so slow, so if ure opponent is 1 basing like he should be, he should already have more then enough to defend. Roaches and Hydralisks face the same problem. The only thing I could see working out of these is the Nydus Worm thing, but the timing needs to be as fast as possible, and hope they did not scan / scout it. But usually they just have a shit ton of anti-zergling units that you will just send them to your deaths. And all a Terran needs to do is throw 1 scan and it's all over. And if a Protoss scouts properly, he should spot the the speedlings atleast. (This is imot he best case scenario for Zerg.)
Sadly, I don't think there is much creativity to Zerg due to their extremely bland units. Best thing you can do is play around when you get your gas geysers imo. And wether you get ling speed or not and such.
Other then that, copy Idra, because he seems to understand the race better then anyone else, his timings and decision making is of course what allows him to be so good imo.
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Kind of like the nydus worm idea, but I did double overlord drop. Basically I made my buddy see the overlords and dropped lings and right as that happened I did another drop in his main with my real army.
 He was really confused and tried to pull back and practically got attacked from both sides.
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Edit: dammit, browser timed out and lost my novel I was writing here. I'll give the short version.
Effectively Zerg has a few options for harassment, this does not include nydus worms, the closest comparison to nydus worms is a warp prism, and I would take warp prisms every day of the week, especially considering 1, they're mobile, 2 you can build them in your own base, 3 you can make observers from a robo fact, you can't make anything but worms from a nydus canal.
Realistic harassment techniques are as followed, and yes I think they are mostly unexplored.
1) baneling drops vs all
2) infestors vs Z and P
3) ling runby vs Z and P
Muta harass is a great way to lose to terran and zerg, but may become viable vs protoss if they ever switch away from stalker/collosus
Roach burrow-move would be nice in mid-game, but by the time its available so are 100 other better uses for your gas. If they could move at their upgraded speed while burrowed, it might prove useful in late-game, but they're so slow right now and the longer games go on, the easier it is to get detection.
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i can't wait to see replays of pros doing baneling mines. it'll be hilariously funny, even better then hold lurker.
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Day[9] daily #159 shows pretty well how the Zerg player can "screw up".
- no harrass against an immobile army
- trying to go head on against an army which is strong against your own army (mass Immortals >> mass Ultralisks)
- not enough creep spread out over the map
- charging a melee focused army into a ranged army set you at a starting disadvantage and even while the battle is raging the melee units need to reposition to be able to attack again, while ranged units dont need to do that as much
Zerg players really need to analyze the weaknesses of the opponent and then abuse them ... especially the mobility. If they dont they should not complain about it, because the majority of Zerg units is melee range and will suffer a few free shots from their opponents while rushing to attack, so a head on confrontation is NOT the right way to go.
In the Day[9] daily you see 10-12 Ultralisks get demolished by ~8 Immortals, but would the same happen if you put 2 Ultralisks against 2 Immortals? Or would the Immortals kill the Ultralisks before they rip apart a key Protoss tech building? I dont think these results would be as clearly in favor of the Protoss as the battle mentioned above. Killing key tech buildings is an important thing though and if you manage to kill the Robotics Bay for example there is a time window where Protoss can not reinforce his Colossi and your Zerglings might be awesome to kill off Immortals.
Lastly you can make harrassing Ultralisks awesome by burrowing them and requiring the opponent to use resources to detect. If your harrassing units are about to die just burrow them and expand the duration of the harrassment by a lot (unless he already has detectors available, but regenerating Roaches do need a certain amount of dps to be killed while burrowed and they could even spread out in different directions to require more detection).
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On August 05 2010 07:29 tfmdjeff wrote:
You know something? Today I've replied to many Zerg-is-underpowered threads, agreeing a little bit with some, not agreeing with others.
But you know something? The Beta already happened. It's over. The Beta existed so that the game could be balanced, and now that it's over, it's likely we won't see any of the buffs we whine for, and likely won't see any changes until at least HoTS.
So in the meantime, I've created this thread so we Zerg players can be...
PRODUCTIVE!
Instead of raging about Zerg's supposed weaknesses, let's all put our minds into one big theorycrafting hive, and think of what kinds of new things we can do with the Zerg we currently have and probably will for a very long time. Crazy strategies, new ways for using units and spells and abilities that we aren't taking full advantage of, maybe overcome some of Zerg's current problems.
So, without further ado, I present to you my theorycrafting!
Here's an idea I've been throwing around in my head. It has to do with Nydus Worms. Yes, Nydus Worms, those things we hate because they take so long to build and to be killed and we generally use them as a sort of replacement for a big overlord drop. I call it a nydus fork, because, like a chess fork, it forces the opponent to make a decision. He's bound to lose something, he just has to chose what.
So here's how it works. Instead of building one nydus worm, you build TWO. See my trickery? I don't mean build two right next to each other, but I mean build two in very different areas of his territory. You have your units loaded up into the worm. You watch and see his reaction. Even if he scouts both worms, Watch which one he goes for, and just pop your army right out of the other. Do your damage, and retreat. What if decides to split his army to deal with them both? Easy, you only have half an army to worry about now. If he comes back and hasn't killed the other worm, just pop right back out of that and do even more damage. Well, you only have half of an army to fight, you can overwhelm it. Now, I know this strategy won't work all the time, but hey. It seems like it'd work in some situations, especially mech.
Well, now that I've contributed my share for now, go forth my fellow Zerg players, and try to be productive. Just try to think of something that hasn't been done before, don't think too hard about viability. Strategies are born rough, and refined overtime.
I like the idea, but it costs to much gas to do simultaneously, since each network can only build one worm at a time (so you'd need 2 networks).
What I like to do on big maps is build a worm as simply a method for faster reinforcements (like a forward pylon for a protoss player), and bringing a queen or two with me to spread creep and heal with transfusion. Unfortunately, if I were a better player, I could have been spreading creep tumors all game long and had a queen there without a worm.
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On August 05 2010 16:47 Jermstuddog wrote:
Edit: dammit, browser timed out and lost my novel I was writing here. I'll give the short version.
Effectively Zerg has a few options for harassment, this does not include nydus worms, the closest comparison to nydus worms is a warp prism, and I would take warp prisms every day of the week, especially considering 1, they're mobile, 2 you can build them in your own base, 3 you can make observers from a robo fact, you can't make anything but worms from a nydus canal.
Realistic harassment techniques are as followed, and yes I think they are mostly unexplored.
1) baneling drops vs all
2) infestors vs Z and P
3) ling runby vs Z and P
Muta harass is a great way to lose to terran and zerg, but may become viable vs protoss if they ever switch away from stalker/collosus
Roach burrow-move would be nice in mid-game, but by the time its available so are 100 other better uses for your gas. If they could move at their upgraded speed while burrowed, it might prove useful in late-game, but they're so slow right now and the longer games go on, the easier it is to get detection.
Baneling drops maybe, but that costs so incredibly much gas. 200/200 for transport 100/100 to make OLs useful, then of course the banelings itself etc. I don't thing this is viable at all other then late game when you have 3-4 bases. I saw Sen do something like this, but it seemed very situational.
Infestors are already being used in both vs Z and P. In vs Z it's not unusual to see Infestors if both opened roaches and the game drags on. Unless your suggesting infestors to counter baneling play, well, I don't think that's viable. You will be wasting all this gas and money on teching up, while a person who goes Banelings get full map control, allowing them to expand and transition aswell. Banelings nest isn't that big of a investment. That is of course, if you manage to stay alive / not lose drones.
Infestors were used a lot before NP got nerfed, after that its just simply not worth it most of the time. Fungal Growth can have it's uses though, but mainly as a help tool to kill mass phoenix builds. Against Colossus play, ure better off getting more Corruptors or just mass. But I can see situations where Fungal Growth could help to pick off stray units. Trying to NP a colossus is usually just giving a free infestor away, due to the fact how easily Colossus can stay behind the troops, while a Infestor is forced to come to the frontlines to be able to NP.
Ling runby was also one of the things that died out during the first few weeks of the beta, especially against P. It was one of my favourite ways to win a game against P. They would do the usual 4 gate stuff, I hide my lings, when he moves out I run in his base and rape the probe line. Most Zergs realized this and abused it, which is why any smart Protoss when he is aware that speedlings exist (not a hard thing to check), they will almost always leave a Zealot / Sentry blocking on top of their ramp.
Ling runby in ZvZ is used ALOT when your opponent decides to go for Roaches, and is one of the reasons why Roaches are kinda sucky. You can't possibly move out without leaving Roaches back home or investing in some Creep Crawlers, because the second you leave your base, you will have 20 speedlings raping everything. Which is why it's very normal for a Speedling player go for a relative fast expand to force the Roach player out, or risk getting overrun in awhile. Also speedlings own Roaches till you get a good ball of them.
Just my 2 cents.
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On August 05 2010 17:02 Rabiator wrote:Day[9] daily #159 shows pretty well how the Zerg player can "screw up". - no harrass against an immobile army
- trying to go head on against an army which is strong against your own army (mass Immortals >> mass Ultralisks)
- not enough creep spread out over the map
- charging a melee focused army into a ranged army set you at a starting disadvantage and even while the battle is raging the melee units need to reposition to be able to attack again, while ranged units dont need to do that as much
Zerg players really need to analyze the weaknesses of the opponent and then abuse them ... especially the mobility. If they dont they should not complain about it, because the majority of Zerg units is melee range and will suffer a few free shots from their opponents while rushing to attack, so a head on confrontation is NOT the right way to go. In the Day[9] daily you see 10-12 Ultralisks get demolished by ~8 Immortals, but would the same happen if you put 2 Ultralisks against 2 Immortals? Or would the Immortals kill the Ultralisks before they rip apart a key Protoss tech building? I dont think these results would be as clearly in favor of the Protoss as the battle mentioned above. Killing key tech buildings is an important thing though and if you manage to kill the Robotics Bay for example there is a time window where Protoss can not reinforce his Colossi and your Zerglings might be awesome to kill off Immortals. Lastly you can make harrassing Ultralisks awesome by burrowing them and requiring the opponent to use resources to detect. If your harrassing units are about to die just burrow them and expand the duration of the harrassment by a lot (unless he already has detectors available, but regenerating Roaches do need a certain amount of dps to be killed while burrowed and they could even spread out in different directions to require more detection).
I get annoyed by the above post claiming that the zerg screwed up...
From an ingame viewpoints the zerg played very logically with a sound selection of units.
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On August 05 2010 17:18 exog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 17:02 Rabiator wrote:Day[9] daily #159 shows pretty well how the Zerg player can "screw up". - no harrass against an immobile army
- trying to go head on against an army which is strong against your own army (mass Immortals >> mass Ultralisks)
- not enough creep spread out over the map
- charging a melee focused army into a ranged army set you at a starting disadvantage and even while the battle is raging the melee units need to reposition to be able to attack again, while ranged units dont need to do that as much
Zerg players really need to analyze the weaknesses of the opponent and then abuse them ... especially the mobility. If they dont they should not complain about it, because the majority of Zerg units is melee range and will suffer a few free shots from their opponents while rushing to attack, so a head on confrontation is NOT the right way to go. In the Day[9] daily you see 10-12 Ultralisks get demolished by ~8 Immortals, but would the same happen if you put 2 Ultralisks against 2 Immortals? Or would the Immortals kill the Ultralisks before they rip apart a key Protoss tech building? I dont think these results would be as clearly in favor of the Protoss as the battle mentioned above. Killing key tech buildings is an important thing though and if you manage to kill the Robotics Bay for example there is a time window where Protoss can not reinforce his Colossi and your Zerglings might be awesome to kill off Immortals. Lastly you can make harrassing Ultralisks awesome by burrowing them and requiring the opponent to use resources to detect. If your harrassing units are about to die just burrow them and expand the duration of the harrassment by a lot (unless he already has detectors available, but regenerating Roaches do need a certain amount of dps to be killed while burrowed and they could even spread out in different directions to require more detection). I get annoyed by the above post claiming that the zerg screwed up... From an ingame viewpoints the zerg played very logically with a sound selection of units.
Sorry, but you really think that trying to do a frontal assault against a solid number of Immortals with lots of Ultralisks is a good choice? There were a number of early smaller engagements and the Zerg knew the Protoss had Immortals AND he did not manage to kill the four Colossi, so the Robo facilities were free to produce Immortals. He also had revealed his Ultralisk tech in a small assault (which was ok and succeeded somewhat), but the Protoss had some survivors all the time. So was it really "not screwing up" to stick to the same plan and simply more units?
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On August 05 2010 17:12 AlienAlias wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 07:29 tfmdjeff wrote:
You know something? Today I've replied to many Zerg-is-underpowered threads, agreeing a little bit with some, not agreeing with others.
But you know something? The Beta already happened. It's over. The Beta existed so that the game could be balanced, and now that it's over, it's likely we won't see any of the buffs we whine for, and likely won't see any changes until at least HoTS.
So in the meantime, I've created this thread so we Zerg players can be...
PRODUCTIVE!
Instead of raging about Zerg's supposed weaknesses, let's all put our minds into one big theorycrafting hive, and think of what kinds of new things we can do with the Zerg we currently have and probably will for a very long time. Crazy strategies, new ways for using units and spells and abilities that we aren't taking full advantage of, maybe overcome some of Zerg's current problems.
So, without further ado, I present to you my theorycrafting!
Here's an idea I've been throwing around in my head. It has to do with Nydus Worms. Yes, Nydus Worms, those things we hate because they take so long to build and to be killed and we generally use them as a sort of replacement for a big overlord drop. I call it a nydus fork, because, like a chess fork, it forces the opponent to make a decision. He's bound to lose something, he just has to chose what.
So here's how it works. Instead of building one nydus worm, you build TWO. See my trickery? I don't mean build two right next to each other, but I mean build two in very different areas of his territory. You have your units loaded up into the worm. You watch and see his reaction. Even if he scouts both worms, Watch which one he goes for, and just pop your army right out of the other. Do your damage, and retreat. What if decides to split his army to deal with them both? Easy, you only have half an army to worry about now. If he comes back and hasn't killed the other worm, just pop right back out of that and do even more damage. Well, you only have half of an army to fight, you can overwhelm it. Now, I know this strategy won't work all the time, but hey. It seems like it'd work in some situations, especially mech.
Well, now that I've contributed my share for now, go forth my fellow Zerg players, and try to be productive. Just try to think of something that hasn't been done before, don't think too hard about viability. Strategies are born rough, and refined overtime. I like the idea, but it costs to much gas to do simultaneously, since each network can only build one worm at a time (so you'd need 2 networks). What I like to do on big maps is build a worm as simply a method for faster reinforcements (like a forward pylon for a protoss player), and bringing a queen or two with me to spread creep and heal with transfusion. Unfortunately, if I were a better player, I could have been spreading creep tumors all game long and had a queen there without a worm.
As an alternative to building two Nydus worms you could do a "fake drop" by flying a bunch of Overlords into an enemies base somewhere highly visible and far away from the worm. Your troops could be in either of these drop methods and you dont need a second Nydus Network.
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On August 05 2010 07:29 tfmdjeff wrote:So here's how it works. Instead of building one nydus worm, you build TWO. See my trickery? I don't mean build two right next to each other, but I mean build two in very different areas of his territory. You have your units loaded up into the worm. You watch and see his reaction. Even if he scouts both worms, Watch which one he goes for, and just pop your army right out of the other. Do your damage, and retreat. What if decides to split his army to deal with them both? Easy, you only have half an army to worry about now. If he comes back and hasn't killed the other worm, just pop right back out of that and do even more damage. Well, you only have half of an army to fight, you can overwhelm it.. The issue with this is Nydus Worms take incredibly long to build and only have 200 HP. That's 10 marauder shots, 4 Tank shots, or 40 worker attacks to take down. If the opponent scouts the worms before they're built, shutting down both is not a problem at all. If the opponent doesn't scout them, or only finds one, of course you might be able to do some good damage (essentially sacing 100/100 to distract his army for a bit), but it's risky and smells of cheese. If he has tanks properly positioned around his base, it will be difficult.
I agree that Nydus worms are underused, and multiple nydus exits ought to be explored, but as it is the Nydus is incredibly soft and slow to build (and slow to poop out units, which means 100 zerglings coming out of 1 nydus are not very effective). Blizzard, buff plox.
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On August 05 2010 07:39 boredcouch wrote:
I want to see someone do this:
1. Make banelings
2. Do not baneling bust
3. Research burrow
4. Burrow banelings at natural expansion in the mineral line
5. Once workers get transferred, press x
6. Laugh mercilessly!!!
That rarely work since they always get turrets at expansions 
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On August 05 2010 17:15 NonFactor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:47 Jermstuddog wrote:
Edit: dammit, browser timed out and lost my novel I was writing here. I'll give the short version.
Effectively Zerg has a few options for harassment, this does not include nydus worms, the closest comparison to nydus worms is a warp prism, and I would take warp prisms every day of the week, especially considering 1, they're mobile, 2 you can build them in your own base, 3 you can make observers from a robo fact, you can't make anything but worms from a nydus canal.
Realistic harassment techniques are as followed, and yes I think they are mostly unexplored.
1) baneling drops vs all
2) infestors vs Z and P
3) ling runby vs Z and P
Muta harass is a great way to lose to terran and zerg, but may become viable vs protoss if they ever switch away from stalker/collosus
Roach burrow-move would be nice in mid-game, but by the time its available so are 100 other better uses for your gas. If they could move at their upgraded speed while burrowed, it might prove useful in late-game, but they're so slow right now and the longer games go on, the easier it is to get detection. Baneling drops maybe, but that costs so incredibly much gas. 200/200 for transport 100/100 to make OLs useful, then of course the banelings itself etc. I don't thing this is viable at all other then late game when you have 3-4 bases. I saw Sen do something like this, but it seemed very situational. Infestors are already being used in both vs Z and P. In vs Z it's not unusual to see Infestors if both opened roaches and the game drags on. Unless your suggesting infestors to counter baneling play, well, I don't think that's viable. You will be wasting all this gas and money on teching up, while a person who goes Banelings get full map control, allowing them to expand and transition aswell. Banelings nest isn't that big of a investment. That is of course, if you manage to stay alive / not lose drones. Infestors were used a lot before NP got nerfed, after that its just simply not worth it most of the time. Fungal Growth can have it's uses though, but mainly as a help tool to kill mass phoenix builds. Against Colossus play, ure better off getting more Corruptors or just mass. But I can see situations where Fungal Growth could help to pick off stray units. Trying to NP a colossus is usually just giving a free infestor away, due to the fact how easily Colossus can stay behind the troops, while a Infestor is forced to come to the frontlines to be able to NP. Ling runby was also one of the things that died out during the first few weeks of the beta, especially against P. It was one of my favourite ways to win a game against P. They would do the usual 4 gate stuff, I hide my lings, when he moves out I run in his base and rape the probe line. Most Zergs realized this and abused it, which is why any smart Protoss when he is aware that speedlings exist (not a hard thing to check), they will almost always leave a Zealot / Sentry blocking on top of their ramp. Ling runby in ZvZ is used ALOT when your opponent decides to go for Roaches, and is one of the reasons why Roaches are kinda sucky. You can't possibly move out without leaving Roaches back home or investing in some Creep Crawlers, because the second you leave your base, you will have 20 speedlings raping everything. Which is why it's very normal for a Speedling player go for a relative fast expand to force the Roach player out, or risk getting overrun in awhile. Also speedlings own Roaches till you get a good ball of them. Just my 2 cents.
Rereading what I wrote, I'm not sure why I used the word "unexplored". Underutilized is what I meant.
Those 3 harassment options are the only valid options in mid game as far as I'm concerned. This takes cost and effectiveness into consideration.
Baneling drops cost a lot. 300/300 for decent ovie drops, 50/25 per baneling, and you'll quite possibly lose the ovie 100/8. But they give your scouts added mobility through ovie speed, your army added mobility through drops, and 3-4 banelings can take out 10 or so SCVs. I would pay twice the price happily. For the cost, you gain a lot of options.
Infestors are good because they're just a good unit. Yes NP is shit now and not worth the research. Fungal Growth still rocks vs just about all army compositions ( not really vs sling/bling though I will agree). As any match moves into mid game, I think infestors should show up in every Z army, kinda sad I don't really see this a whole lot anymore, but it is still used, and we all knew it was there all along. As far as harassment cost goes, you again spend it all in research and tech. 1 max energy infestor can decimate a mineral line, anything beyond that is gravy.
Sling runby is dirt cheap and if you don't have ling speed you messed up somewhere. 20 lings is a whole 500 minerals and 10 supply, they move so fast, and if you have burrow they can be hard to find. Run into enemy base, kill 1 supply depot, run out and burrow in the middle of the map. So hard not to get your money back on lings.
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On August 05 2010 07:34 Twistacles wrote:
I like you.
As a P player, I've always found burrow to be underused. P almost always goes 2gaterobo, meaning he expands late.
Giving you enough time to burrow a couple banelings at his natural. Sure, it's somewhat of a longshot, but consider this:
You come into his main, somehow. Whether drops, air, nydus. You do some damage. He sends his probes/scvs to his newly made natural. You now have ALL his probes...over a bunch of banelings. You just won the game. Thoughts?
Omg!! this is awesome!
Burrowing banelings at his natural, and then when he expands and transfers probes, you unburrow the banelings and destroy all the probes! LOL :D
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I only just watches the Razer King of the Beta VODS but I finally saw the return of an old favorite of mine, the zergling snipe team. In ZvP BW it seemed to be common practice to send a control group of crackling to possible expansion sites to quickly snipe the nexus.
I'll spoiler it for people who haven't seen it yet.
+ Show Spoiler +
Idra Vs Tester, game 5 on Metalopolis. Idra has some speedlings running around and he actually researches adrenal glands. He keeps Tester's army at his base by threatening to do a runby. When Tester does finally move out, Idra runs in and quickly snipes the robotics support facility.
Everybody is saying zerglings aren't what they used to be and adrenal glands isn't worth it and they are probably right. But man was I glad to see that And I was quite amazed at the speed at which it was taken down.
Do you guys think the speedling (or crackling) team can make a comeback or was this just a one time thing?
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EPT
