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On July 14 2010 20:35 Sueco wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 19:06 imbetterthanu wrote:On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote:
No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring. Blizzard is actually trying to design the game this time around rather than let strategies emerge due to coding errors. Sure muta stacks and hold lurkers were fun and exciting, that doesn't mean they should keep the design philosophy of "game design by software glitch", something you'd realize if you had any brains. Maybe burrowed casting is the spice-up Zerg needs. If that's case, Blizzard should include it next patch, but "keep it a glitch so i can feel moar special" is just dumb.
That's like saying bunny hopping in css should be removed because everyone can't do it. Or Russian walk in cs 1.6 or flick shots in cod2/cod4 or strafe jumping in quake etc... If everyone can do it, it becomes a stale game, no excitement nothing. I'd rather have to put in the time to do "amazing" things in a game, than have the game do them for me.
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A little questionable if they keep underground movement AND burrows casting, combining the two is just too substantial and strong, imho.
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They're supposed to keep these "bugs." Muta stacking? Horribly effective bug, but really made the game a lot better for the ones who exploited it best. This just gives the infestor finally the depth we need. Like hold lurkers. Or how banelings can now auto explode/explode while underground. These are what makes the Zerg swarm finally get the the stuff it needs.
Toss has sentries. Terran have Ghosts. There is no par early spellcaster for the Zerg, so make them better otherwise.
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United States7166 Posts
On July 14 2010 17:35 ascoe wrote: It seems strange to keep infestors from simply casting everything while burrowed if this exploit is possible. Is this an example of blizzard rewarding players w/ faster mechanics? Why would something like that patched in so late?_? edit: This part Show nested quote +
When you use Neural Parasite while Burrowed, their forces will not fire back at the Parasited units automatically. Provided they don't have Detection
really makes it sound like a glitch.. Cloaked thors? Void rays? Tanks? (Edit: Motherships???) I've played games where exploits become part of gameplay but the mechanics of burrowed NP make no sense.
i corrected the OP, since it was confusing. i meant that they need detection to see burrowed infestor. they can see their parasited unit just fine, it's no different than a regular parasited unit.
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aha this is great! It's not something that I would do every game, but it's definitely a cool way to catch people off guard if you're messing around 
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Awesome, and actually liked the comparison with muta stack, and lurker hold.
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Okay so everyone knows, in order to do this burrow cast YOU HAVE TO START UNBURROWED, and you no longer can move underground (you have to unburrow and reburrow to do that). so the infestor opens itself up to damage specifically, hell the only difference from moving in to position to cast, un borrow, cast, reburrow, and this is the state of the infestor post cast.
Normally the infestor is burrowing immediately after the spell and then can move
With this the infestor in already burrowed and can't move.
I guess you could say it's unfair because if terran only makes one raven and it gets NP'd and terran doesn't scan or kill the infestor, or wait for 12 seconds. then maybe they might get burrow ambushed or have no way of killing an immobile infestor.
And to those who said either muta stacking wasn't a bug, and someone else said it was much more difficult than this. i laugh at you. yeah it was a bug and it's so easy it's done at D levels in ICCUP hell i learned to do it as one of the first few things i did when learning BW (started playing BW in beta downtime, but been watching for years). Just because something is done by skilled players doesn't mean it requires skill, it just means that it makes the most difference to skilled players because it gives a slight advantage to the zerg player. this will be the same way. it gives a slight advantage.
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Blizzard is actually trying to design the game this time around rather than let strategies emerge due to coding errors.
Then apparently they lack the talent or direction to do so properly, and players should welcome any emergent playstyle option they find.
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote:
No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
This is true. Knowing about an obscure glitch itself is not skill. However, due to the often esoteric nature of glitches, they lend themselves to a form of execution that requires a level of timing and reaction above and beyond what the designers originally had intended in the game.
Muta Stacking is an obscure glitch, and knowing how to do so is not skill. But due to the arcane nature of the movements required to properly execute an attack by stacked mutas, simply knowing how to is not enough. It also requires a level of tactical and reactionary skill above and beyond that present in the normal game. In fact, that level of skill is so high that the difference between a D zerg player and a C zerg player is often solely centered around their micromanagement of their mutalisks, continuing to scale with scale into A+ and beyond.
This bug should be retained not because it allows a select few people to gain an advantage because they read TL.net, but rather, it allows for a higher level of tactical and "micro" play that is both not present in the original game, and not designed for in the original game.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
This was kind of stupid :/. I'm not sure if you understand how this works, but in order to fungal growth, I have to unburrow, burrow again, and hit fungal growth during the reburrow casting animation. Since fungal growth has no casting time, if you are not already in position, it is absolutely identical to simply burrowing, moving, unburrowing, casting, and instantly burrowing.
I mean, think about how ridiculous it would be if two or three infestors could burrow into a fully saturated expansion and fungal growth the mineral line while burrowed, instantly killing it all. At least with a raid somewhat comprable, like DTs, you have a chance to evacuate your workers.
They can ALREADY DO THIS. The ONLY application of this skill is through an application similar to "lurker hold", where you are anticipating enemy movement.
Your flaming in ridiculous. Sueco has a good point.
Everytime some small bug appears in SC2 a sizable portion of the community begs for it to be left in to "make it more like BW/require more skill." It honestly is pathetic.
Why? Because you said so? What is "pathetic" about asking for emergent forms of gameplay to let remain in existence for the sake of a more competitive game in lieu of full support by the designers?
And in this case, the glitch doesn't even appear to take nearly the technical skill of something like muta stacking or patrol micro.
No, but it requires significantly more tactical skill then either.
The SC2 engine is capable of WAY more than the BW engine. It seems like any way that Blizzard thinks a unit should behave, they could make it behave that way.
And? The game is still complex and competitive, but you'd be arguing an unarguable point if you claimed it was as mechanically and tactically demanding as Brood War with as high of a skill cap.
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Yes, remove it...
...Or wait! Buff infestor to allow it to do it without a glitch!
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On July 15 2010 01:09 Kakisho wrote:
Toss has sentries. Terran have Ghosts. There is no par early spellcaster for the Zerg, so make them better otherwise.
They have the Queen. Outside of the macro mechanic (Spawn Larva), Creep Tumors and Transfusion are two very good spells. And the Queen also doesn't cost any gas, unlike the other two you mentioned.
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On July 15 2010 02:50 cocosoft wrote:
Yes, remove it...
...Or wait! Buff infestor to allow it to do it without a glitch!
To do what? Allow them to cast while underground? That is NOT the nature of this glitch, and that would horrendously break the infestor.
Buff infestors to give them an ability which makes them burrow but now move around and the player can't make any other macro or micromanagement options unless they hit cancel and then the infestor can move but can't cast spells anymore but while they don't do anything else they can cast fungal growth or neural parasite while the infestor is still underground?
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Blizzard will not implement that as a skill. They should not implement the skill. Any other implementation would be less tactically demanding and overpowered, or even more convoluted.
However its important to note that convolution that results out of piss poor skill design is not the same as a complex mechanic that emerges out of the natural interaction of simple mechanics.
The above spell makes absolutely no sense. But realizing that any spell you que when you hit burrow can still be cast after burrowing is a natural realization that simultaneously makes sense and is the sum of its part. Turning the same mechanic into a spell would suddenly make it unprecedented and irrelevant.
Saying its bad because its unintended and thus, inherently increases the learning curve for new players. Well, thats certainly a negative, but only if their is an alternative solution available. So far, Blizzard has shown themselves unwilling or incapable of designs that present a similar level of nuance as unintended mechanics, not through inherently complex and convoluted spells, but as simplistic spells that can still offer an huge array of different dynamic forms of usage that scale with skill.
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I really like that something like this has been discovered, and I would love for all these little things to stay.
But seeing how blizzard has come forward on similar things, I bet that this is gonna get fixed very quickly, wich makes me really sad 
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On July 14 2010 18:47 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Its great, has its advantages and disadvantages, just like lurker hold and mutalisk stack. Leave it in. And I'm Terran.
I agree, I'm also a T player, and this is good stuff for SC2. Just like hold lurkers.
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This is really awesome. Love little glitches that require speed, skill, and knowledge. The new muta micro?
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I say leave it in it's interesting, and it seems to only be np to be very useful, although doing it with fungal growth does move your infester out of the way, but i wouldn't say it's a large advantage.
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This must be the only place in software engineering where the end-users could actually debate weather they want glitches in there end product.
I don't know how SEs would feel about it if the end-user wanted it in but, at least from my perspective, you should try to eliminate bugs in a program, that is just what I would want to do. Seeing a bug in my program makes me instantly want to fix it. I don't know but if I was a blizzard programmer I would see this and cringe.
One more thing to note, there will always be bugs in a large program, SC2 will be no exception, even if they do get rid of this glitch, some where down the line we will find more.
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On July 15 2010 03:10 MokuZ wrote:
This must be the only place in software engineering where the end-users could actually debate weather they want glitches in there end product.
I don't know how SEs would feel about it if the end-user wanted it in but, at least from my perspective, you should try to eliminate bugs in a program, that is just what I would want to do. Seeing a bug in my program makes me instantly want to fix it. I don't know but if I was a blizzard programmer I would see this and cringe.
One more thing to note, there will always be bugs in a large program, SC2 will be no exception, even if they do get rid of this glitch, some where down the line we will find more.
Look up this.
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On July 15 2010 02:34 Half wrote:
They can ALREADY DO THIS. The ONLY application of this skill is through an application similar to "lurker hold", where you are anticipating enemy movement.
EDIT: Yes, you're right they can. And this bug doesn't really affect this strategy since they cant move while burrowed and cast the spell. My mistake.
Why? Because you said so? What is "pathetic" about asking for emergent forms of gameplay to let remain in existence for the sake of a more competitive game in lieu of full support by the designers?
Just stating my opinion. That's the point of a discussion forum. I think its pathetic that people are clamoring for bugs, which many SC2 users will not even be aware of, when the new engine and design team are perfectly capable of designing the unit to work this way if they want it to.
This isn't 1999. There's no need to rely on bugs because of an inferior engine to enhance gameplay.
And anyway, this bug is very easy to do. Not only is it easy, but it greatly enhances the effectiveness of the Infestor in ways that seem to me (and the design team) overpowered. If this wasn't the case, the Infestor would already be able to cast while burrowed. It used to be able to cast while burrowed in the Alpha stages (maybe in the beta too? my memory is fuzzy) and it was removed.
No, but it requires significantly more tactical skill then either.
I don't see how. All you have to do is hit one more key than casting it normally in a somewhat narrow window.
And? The game is still complex and competitive, but you'd be arguing an unarguable point if you claimed it was as mechanically and tactically demanding as Brood War with as high of a skill cap.
I don't think it is as mechancially demanding as BW, but its not as far off as some make it seem.
I'd like to see reps of a 20+ minute high-level game with lots of skirmishes where people don't miss a single Spawn Larvae/MULE/Chronoboost. I'd like to see one of a similar nature where people don't get a CC/Nexus/Queen with close to or at 100 energy.
Also, the damage in this game is so high in general that you always have to be wary of your army, on top of some new, demanding macro mechanics.
I also haven't seen many replays at all where people actually split their armies into like 5-6 control groups and split/micro/position them to full effectiveness. Most people are stuck in 1-2 control group mode.
There is so much room for growth in this game, and I love how after 2 months of beta play a lot of people have written it off as inferior to its predecessor. Just think about the evolution of Pro Korean BW from 2002 and earlier to the present. Without a doubt, we'll be looking back at these "concrete" assumptions about SC2 from its beta in 5 years and wonder WTF were we thinking. Even in a year from now, the skill gap grow tremedously and strategies evolve.
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I don't know how SEs would feel about it if the end-user wanted it in but, at least from my perspective, you should try to eliminate bugs in a program, that is just what I would want to do. Seeing a bug in my program makes me instantly want to fix it. I don't know but if I was a blizzard programmer I would see this and cringe.
Whats the difference between a strategy the developers didn't forsee and a bug like this? Both are the unintended result of the interaction of properly working game mechanics that were not forseen by the developers.
I would argue this isn't even a glitch.
I don't think it is as mechancially demanding as BW, but its not as far off as some make it seem.
I'd like to see reps of a 20+ minute high-level game with lots of skirmishes where people don't miss a single Spawn Larvae/MULE/Chronoboost. I'd like to see one of a similar nature where people don't get a CC/Nexus/Queen with close to or at 100 energy.
Also, the damage in this game is so high in general that you always have to be wary of your army, on top of some new, demanding macro mechanics.
I also haven't seen many replays at all where people actually split their armies into like 5-6 control groups and properly split/micro them.
There is so much room for growth in this game, and I love how after 2 months of beta play a lot of people have written it off as inferior to its predecessor. Just think about the evolution of Pro Korean BW from 2002 and earlier to the present. Without a doubt, we'll be looking back at these "concrete" assumptions about SC2 from its beta in 5 years and wonder WTF were we thinking. Even in a year from now, the skill gap grow tremedously and strategies evolve.
#1 Your quotes hurt my eyes ;_;
#2 I didn't say Starcraft 2 had a low skill cap or was uncompetitive. Your examples were completely irrelevant. Your examples are saying that people have not reached the skill cap, and will not reach them for some time, if ever. Ok. I agree. Thats not at all what I was talking about -_-.
I'm saying that any casual observation into the mechanics of the game can only yield the conclusion that the skill cap will be lower, and that the player has less decisions to make.
This is a fact. If we simply analyze player inputs, Starcraft 2 has clearly less of them. If we analyze how much skill (or player input) is required to execute maneuvers, once again, Starcraft 2 requires less. The precision and timings of playerinput is by definition mechanical skill, and by this definition, you cannot argue Starcraft 2 has more occasions that require precise and well timed player control.
No they can't. Currently (bug aside) they have to unburrow to cast FG. This gives the opponent a window (albeit a small one) to try and evacuate workers.
Sir no offense but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
You STILL have to unburrow in order for this bug to work. Please reread the OP so you have an vague idea of how this mechanic works.
edit:
I don't see how. All you have to do is hit one more key than casting it normally in a somewhat narrow window.
Well now that you realize how this mechanics works, you see how now right?
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leave it in of course. unless it largely makes the game unfair. this game needs some micro stuff to make it more interesting 
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EPT
