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On July 15 2010 07:57 Whole wrote:
To those who are claiming this is gamebreaking:
You guys are acting like this glitch makes the Infestor an invincible and undetectable monster that can do a Fungal Growth for 10000 damage while spawning Ultralisk out of the sky. The fact is that a simple Missile Turret, Observer, Photon Cannon, or Overseer can counter this. You normally already have these in the first place. If you really think this is overpowered, then you must hate DTs and Nukes.
You're exaggerating. The reason this should be removed is that it allows a zerg player to NP units that are unable to cloak, and cloak them.
The way it works is downright confusing to the average player who doesn't read TL. If you look at the LOS mechanics, or the high ground mechanics, they work in an obvious way by design.
Sure, players WILL HAVE detection at that point but really, this behaves more like an exploit than a feature.
On July 15 2010 08:58 ktimekiller wrote:
IMO make infestors non armored, and smaller.
Bam, suddenly, more viable, without needing a bug
I agree - having a blimp-sized casting unit is kind of :X
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Anyone that voted this should be in the game is just a Z looking for a slice of imbal pie. I play Z and I'm not dirty enough to think this is a fair exploit.
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As a random player, I tried this in some team games. I found it hallarious however not useful. Fungal growth shows ur infestor anyway. Only practical with neural parasite however the tech up takes so long they almost always have detection by that time. If they dont chances are you would win anyway.
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On July 15 2010 09:54 ascoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 07:57 Whole wrote:
To those who are claiming this is gamebreaking:
You guys are acting like this glitch makes the Infestor an invincible and undetectable monster that can do a Fungal Growth for 10000 damage while spawning Ultralisk out of the sky. The fact is that a simple Missile Turret, Observer, Photon Cannon, or Overseer can counter this. You normally already have these in the first place. If you really think this is overpowered, then you must hate DTs and Nukes. You're exaggerating. The reason this should be removed is that it allows a zerg player to NP units that are unable to cloak, and cloak them. The way it works is downright confusing to the average player who doesn't read TL. If you look at the LOS mechanics, or the high ground mechanics, they work in an obvious way by design. Sure, players WILL HAVE detection at that point but really, this behaves more like an exploit than a feature. Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 08:58 ktimekiller wrote:
IMO make infestors non armored, and smaller.
Bam, suddenly, more viable, without needing a bug I agree - having a blimp-sized casting unit is kind of :X
This, from Zelniq+ Show Spoiler +NOTE: The infestor is revealed for 1 second while casting Fungal Growth when Burrowed. Only applies to Fungal Growth. This means that because you could always move Infestors while Burrowed, you could UnBurrow, Fungal, then Re-Burrow... it's basically equivalent to casting while Burrowed because of the 1 second reveal. Meaning that this glitch is basically useless for Fungal Growth.That just leaves Neural Parasite as being the only useful aspect of this glitch Since people seem to be concerned about how strong it is, let me remind everyone how much gas and time is required: After Lair ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/a/a4/Minerals.gif) 150 ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/e/e1/Vespene.gif) 100 ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/0b/Buildtime_terran.gif) 80, Research Burrow 100 100 100, Build Infestation Pit 150 100 80, Build Infestors 100 150 50 each, and you want several Infestors for Neural Parasite, Research Neural Parasite 150 150 110, After each 50 Infestor finishes, wait another 64 for 50 more Energy, as Neural Parasite costs 100 Energy. Now you can finally use a spell that only lasts 12, after which they get their unit/s back and then what? And by then Terrans will most likely have Scan energy on at least one of their 2 Orbital Commands, even if they don't have Turrets, which they often will, especially for roaches/mutas. For Protoss, well infestors are already a dangerous investment for zerg to get as Feedback from HTs counter them so well, which they can certainly have well in time for Neural Parasite (no research required, only 50 energy, similar tech requirements, HTs useful for Storm as well and even archons have their uses). As for Detection, well 98% of Protosses will have cannons @ natural well ahead of any Infestors, and before/when they move out, most players will have Observers, completely nullifying this trick. Point being, its uses are very limited and nowhere near what some people have been making it out to be.
In other words, it doesn't cloak anything sides the infestor. . .
And
On July 15 2010 09:55 sk` wrote:
Anyone that voted this should be in the game is just a Z looking for a slice of imbal pie. I play Z and I'm not dirty enough to think this is a fair exploit.
I'm Terran with an off race of Protoss and I think it's a great change, so stop thinking your opinion is the only one that exists.
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On July 15 2010 00:40 psion wrote:
More unit functionality = good.
Obscure unit functionality = bad.
This is probably very underpowered, but it's also very obviously a bug and not a feature. I agree. As I get at some point one of the "experienced" players, I still wouldn't like to have major advantage over new players. This whole mentality - "noobs deserve to be pwned, cuz their noobs" - I find to be very uninteresting and demotivating (for exp. players, not just for newbies). On the contrary, I'd prefer noobs to be presented with all options and tools in the game, nothing hidden and exclusively available only to "veterans".
That used to be quite discouraging about BW, as a new player, that up to quite recently there was a ton of info that is super useful and is not official or standard, and one couldn't really know it. Thanks a million to Team Liquid for making Liquipedia cover that gap, now it's different. But still, I think any such features, if they are part of the game, should be so official, that they should be part of the in-game help manuals etc. In other words, I don't mind if it behaves like it's a bug, as long as Blizzard actually informs all players properly about it and how to use it.
That's all, otherwise I love these exploits, for the rewarding performance challenges they provide. I still voted for it to stay, of course, those are just the conditions I'd like it to stay under.
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Very interesting trick, and even as a non-Zerg player I think it should be kept in the game, tricks like these make games more exciting to watch and adds more badassery to the game.
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On July 15 2010 03:11 MythicalMage wrote:Look up this.
Oh my how interesting, thank you.
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As a Terran this scares the shit outa me lol. That said, it should be kept because it would be very funny and I doubt it would be imba...it would just penalize stupidity more then anything.
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i totally used this in a game today and got a ton of marines fungal'd 
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On July 14 2010 21:02 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 18:43 Keitzer wrote:
Personally, I hope they keep this in. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting.
The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Wtf? how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this:: you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?! "not imbalanced" my ass.... good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change Actually you can't do that, since you need to unburrow every time you want to do something else. So either you can cast fungal or you can cast parasite or you can move. Every time you want to do something else you will have to unburrow and then burrow again. So basically in order to harass a mineral line you still have to unburrow a bit before casting, and if you want to do something else while waiting you need to unburrow again etc. And controlling any other unit also forces you to unburrow afterwards.
Actually you can do that by queuing up the burrow and then the move command to where you want to go. However, you are still unable to do anything else (such as macro) while the infestors travel to the enemy base, so it is pretty useless (EDIT: Now that I think about it, this could be pretty useful to move into casting range of an army). Anyways, I'm all for keeping this in.
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This development is pretty huge, because it allowed infestors to walk under your army while NPing things instead of getting all bunched up with hydras. This bug might make hydra/infestor/ling work pretty well!
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On July 15 2010 12:25 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 00:40 psion wrote:
More unit functionality = good.
Obscure unit functionality = bad.
This is probably very underpowered, but it's also very obviously a bug and not a feature. I agree. As I get at some point one of the "experienced" players, I still wouldn't like to have major advantage over new players. This whole mentality - "noobs deserve to be pwned, cuz their noobs" - I find to be very uninteresting and demotivating (for exp. players, not just for newbies). On the contrary, I'd prefer noobs to be presented with all options and tools in the game, nothing hidden and exclusively available only to "veterans".
i dont like this argument. at what point do you say that a person needs to learn something on his own in a new game? even if BW didnt have any bugs or glitches, veterans would still have a huge advantage because they know BOs and have better micro/macro etc. should the game tell the players optimal build orders from the start? should it warn him of every strategy that the opposing player may be using? let them know when they reach perfect mineral saturation?
for me what made BW so special was how hard it was. if BW was easy no one would be playing it 12 years later. SC2 needs to be hard(er).
A game should keep me coming back because there are always new things in it to master, not by having stupid icons unlocked for every 20 wins.
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If Sc II was all macro not counting "Run around with your rines,or kiting, and no tricks/bugs like this, would it be as fun? Think about it.
With stacked mutas, mutas were essentually useful. In Sc II do you see anyone acctualy going fast muta? no, thats rare.
Hold Lurker. That takes off from your macro time for your micro. It makes lurkers more hidden, and not owned by tanks and reavers if they arnt noticed.
Stacked Wraiths, same concept as stacked mutas, exept wraiths would be almost pure air.
This bug isn't harder to do than basic stacking mutas. This is: click, burrow, cast. Stacked mutas was: select mutas, select a larva/ovie/drone, click same spot, watch them stack.
EDIT: and if BW didnt have any glitches, would you even be here right now? most people were introduced into the game by watching Progamers. or something cool about the game.
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On July 15 2010 09:14 Sylvr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 05:48 ultratorr wrote:
What about in team games? Can you use this trick, while your ally is moving your infestors? Confirmed, just did it. The problem is that the player with the spell queued up still has to sit around until you're in position, but you can choose any target along the way, and if you hold shift, you don't lose the cursor and can do multiple casts.
This could be used especially when your ally loses his base. He can control your infestors since he has no base or units to manage. I can imagine this tactic turning games around if the enemy lacks detection.
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On July 15 2010 15:40 ultratorr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 09:14 Sylvr wrote:On July 15 2010 05:48 ultratorr wrote:
What about in team games? Can you use this trick, while your ally is moving your infestors? Confirmed, just did it. The problem is that the player with the spell queued up still has to sit around until you're in position, but you can choose any target along the way, and if you hold shift, you don't lose the cursor and can do multiple casts. This could be used especially when your ally loses his base. He can control your infestors since he has no base or units to manage. I can imagine this tactic turning games around if the enemy lacks detection.
Just like banshees, ghosts and dark templar then.
I really don't see what the fuss is about in this thread ( not aimed at you ultratorr, merely quoted to have some extra info in my post ). A cloaked banshee without detection or anti air defence will kill you outright, while an infestor would just take your unit for 12 seconds with a pretty clear line pointing at the next infestor grave.
Against zerg you almost dont need any detection anyway, and almost none of the units aside from the banelings can actually attack while cloaked.
I don't see it as overpowered, as most competant protoss' have an observer with their main army anyway, and terran underutilizes ravens.
Leave it in I would say.
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If you guys think this is such a big issues, you've a) not read the patch 16 changes and b) have not played with infestors. 12 secs duration on NP, and thats a game breaker? Sorry, no way...
Fungal growth being so overpowered? With its huge range? 36 damage over time is a real killer, especially since the infestor dies either before using it, or right after that.
the only real useful thing - Infested Terrans.
In one of my last games I had a group of 3 Infestor with over 30kills each. Do you seriously think I used Neural Parasite for that?
PS. Blizz will patch it, surely. Dont mind tho. The real broken thing atm is the damage-dealing mechanics of Void rays...
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At least half of the people here aren't using this correctly at all.
You don't have to burrow anywhere near the enemy. Just start out with a move command or something that won't be completed instantly. Queue burrow, move, all the spells you want after that. You can order the Infestor to do whatever you want while holding shift as long as it's still above ground, including actions after casting FG. The only rules are that queueing NP blocks further commands, and the Infestor can't be burrowed yet.
I've used this in several games to move an Infestor up to an army, cast 2 FGs, and retreat while remaining underground the entire time except for the tiny window of visibility while casting (which is only one second for two FGs because queueing lets you cast two spells at the exact same time).
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You can just que burrow then que whatever you want ( shift click burrow where you want, then shift click what command you want ).
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One thing I love about the RTS genre is that in multiplayer games nearly everything within the game is justified for the win. In fps games tricks such as this will be destroyed and generally outcast by the community but in RTS games players do what they must to win. I believe that this is brought on by the intensely personal combat that is brought on by the extended nature of the 1v1 combat.
I love the thirst for the win that possesses the community it leads to player being the best they can be.
Personally I think that neural parasite needs work and leaving in tricks like this is one way to make the ability less restrictive.
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Sadly blizzard disapproves of the very bugs that made starcraft what it is today, so this probably isn't going to be around very long.
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EPT
