UPDATE: Blizzard has removed this from the game as of patch 1.1 in an undocumented patch change
it was pretty useless anyway (explained below) because of the also undocumented change back during beta to infestor's neural parasite: infinite duration to 15 seconds
What is it?
You may have seen, that in the undocumentated patch changes (which has just been updated with new info regarding Patch 17), Infestors can now cast Infested Terrans while Burrowed. This has allowed for an interesting development:
A new glitch allows you to cast Fungal Growth and Neural Parasite while the Infestor is Burrowed. I should say, infestors, you can do it with mass infestor just as easily. However because of the nature of its limitations, it's not as good as it may seem. You must select Neural Parasite or Fungal Growth (select, but not pick a target), in the very short time between after you told your Infestors to Burrow, but before it actually burrows. Afterward, you cannot do any other action besides selecting a target. So you cannot tell your infestor to move after its burrowed if you want to still cast a spell. To make them move after burrowing, but still be able to cast spells, you need to have had given a move command just after you gave the Burrow command, which makes it a little tricky. And note a major caveat is that you must wait for the infestor to move to its destination, then cast, in order to perform any other actions in the game (assuming you did not queue up the actual casting (targeting) of the spell from afar, which in many cases you'd probably not want to do from far away).
[edit]: ****PLEASE NOTE: ****A lot of people are concerned about how strong this is, and if this needs to be fixed. However as it turns out, this is a pretty much useless trick in for use in any serious game. For Fungal Growth, well the infestor is revealed for 1 second while burrowed- casting Fungal. This means that since you could always be able to move Infestors while Burrowed, you could simply Unburrow, Fungal, then Re-Burrow... it's basically equivalent to casting while Burrowed because of the 1 second reveal. Only difference is that this way guarantees fungal going off (but only if they don't have detection), while if you try to unburrow and fungal then it may die before casting. And while you wait for infestors to move you cannot click/press anything else if you wanna cast something while Burrowed. In most every case you can just cast Fungal normally with just the same effectiveness as Burrowed casting, while being faster/easier to execute.
That just leaves Neural Parasite. Sad part is, Neural Parasite really blows now due to the stealth change that made it last only about 15 game seconds. And combined with the heavy time/gas/energy cost, along with how fragile/easy they are to kill (which if they did would make the entire investment backfire on you), and readily available Detectors nullifying it completely, it's really not even seriously worth getting in almost any situation. For evidence how awful it is, well if you've seen the + Show Spoiler [Razer KotB] +
idra vs TLO series Day6, in game 2 you can see how worthless Neural was on Battlecruisers with the 15 second duration VOD of game in question, seek to 13:40 http://blip.tv/file/3921213
At the start of the following game, they even talked about how bad it is
TLO: 12 sec NP is so awful. Idra: ya that kinda sucked
The 15 second change alone makes NP awful/a waste of resources, but let let me remind everyone anyways just how much gas and time is required for casting Neural Parasite while Burrowed:
After Lair 150 100 80, Research Burrow 100 100 100, Build Infestation Pit 150 100 80, Build Infestors 100 15050 each, and you want several Infestors for Neural Parasite, Research Neural Parasite 150 150 110, After each 50 Infestor finishes, wait another 64 for 50 more Energy, as Neural Parasite costs 100 Energy. Now you can finally use a spell that only lasts 15, after which they get their unit/s back and then what? You look like an idiot for going NP. Oh yeah, and all they need is Detection anyway, which terran can easily just Scan and Protosses are almost guaranteed to have observers by then anyway.
For Protoss, well infestors are already a dangerous investment for zerg to get as Feedback from HTs counter them so well, which they can certainly have well in time for Neural Parasite (no research required, only 50 energy, similar tech requirements, HTs useful for Storm as well and even archons have their uses). As for Detection, well 98% of Protosses will have cannons @ natural well ahead of any Infestors, and before/when they move out, most players will have Observers, completely nullifying this trick.
Point being, it's a cute, but mostly worthless trick, and I regret wasting my time on this guide. [/edit]
How to do it?
Select your infestor/s, they must be Un-Burrowed
Press R to Burrow, then immediately right-click on the spot you want the infestor/s to move to and cast from, then spam E rapidly until your cursor changes to the Target icon (waiting for you to select a target). If your cursor didn't change, you messed up and have to try again.
Wait patiently for your infestor/s to move in range of where you want to cast. You must not select/do anything else until you've casted the spells. If you want to cast multiple spells, hold down Shift. Finish casting the spells whenever you're ready.
OR instead of step 3: If you already have vision of your intended targets, and are comfortable casting the spells from afar (meaning that you know you do not need to wait and see what the situation is just before casting), then you may finish targeting the spells. Remember.. if you want to cast multiple spells, hold Shift down while targeting the spells. Now you are done early, leaving you free to do other actions.
There is another way to have your infestor move after it is Burrowed, when wanting to use this trick. It's simply that if you target the spell on something out of range (for Neural Parasite, you must have the target in vision), it will move in order to cast it.
Remember when you use Neural Parasite (even unburrowed), their forces will not fire back at the Parasited units automatically. And provided they don't have Detection to kill the infestor/s, this creates a hilariously awesome scenario. Where from the enemy's point of view, suddenly some of their units started firing at their friends, while their friends just sat there taking it. Note that the tentacles are still visible to them, but not the infestor itself. Without Detection they can either kill their own infested unit, run away, or just take it. But anyways, even with this trick, the 12 second duration is so short, 100 energy cost is so high, and with the tech requirements, it's really not that great I hope they fix it and revert that 12 second change back
Why it should not be "fixed"
This trick to me is similar in spirit to the glitches in SC1 that allowed for 'hold-lurker' as well as mutalisk stacking.
Now burrowed-casting is not going to be anywhere near as significant as these 2 bugs have been, however the idea remains that some glitches should perhaps not be 'fixed.' You might ask, why not just patch it into the game, so all spells can be cast in a normal way while Burrowed? Well this bug adds an extra element of difficulty and provides unique limitations to its uses. Conceptually, casting spells while Burrowed fits with the infestor. As for the effective uses for this move, you discover for yourself.
big thanks to felizk from Denmark for not only these videos, but being the first to bring this bug to our attention
edit: updated with new poll
Poll: What should be done?
Leave it in (338)
49%
Remove it, but let Fungal/Neural be cast normally while Burrowed (194)
28%
Remove it completely (164)
24%
696 total votes
Your vote: What should be done?
(Vote): Remove it completely (Vote): Leave it in (Vote): Remove it, but let Fungal/Neural be cast normally while Burrowed
I would try it myself if I wasn't at work, but might this also be possible to do with a group of roaches? Burrow them and then spam the A in order to get the target icon on your cursor and then shift-click your opponent's wall-in buildings at their ramp across the map.
The roaches would tunnel their way over and destroy the buildings one by one while burrowed... unless this glitch only works for spells.
This could lead to some really cool gameplay - things like NPing a raven with your first burrowed Infestor then fungal growthing with the others could make for some really exciting and impressive games. Really hope this isn't patched.
On July 14 2010 15:40 Lighioana wrote: So, if I can NP while burrowed but target is out of range, the infestor will get closer?
Yes, but in order to use this trick you need vision of the target before you burrow since you can't move without ruining your click, so it isn't that abusable at all. It would make for some nice pimpest plays etc, and gives zerg an offensive burrowed unit again which is great.
I'd definitely say keep it in, Blizzard probably feels the same way, why would there be a burrowed neural parasite animation if they hadn't thought of this already?
Seriously, look closely at the burrowed NP animation, that is way too detailed and awesome looking to be a coincidence.
On July 14 2010 17:24 v3chr0 wrote: I'd definitely say keep it in, Blizzard probably feels the same way, why would there be a burrowed neural parasite animation if they hadn't thought of this already?
Why would infestors not be able to np while burrowed unless through a glitch then? Your logic makes no sense.
On July 14 2010 17:24 v3chr0 wrote: I'd definitely say keep it in, Blizzard probably feels the same way, why would there be a burrowed neural parasite animation if they hadn't thought of this already?
Why would infestors not be able to np while burrowed unless through a glitch then? Your logic makes no sense.
Why would there be a burrowed neural parasite animation if this was a glitch? and obviously they can NP while burrowed, be it a glitch or not, thusly, your logic makes no sense.
It seems strange to keep infestors from simply casting everything while burrowed if this exploit is possible. Is this an example of blizzard rewarding players w/ faster mechanics?
Why would something like that patched in so late?_?
edit: This part
When you use Neural Parasite while Burrowed, their forces will not fire back at the Parasited units automatically. Provided they don't have Detection
really makes it sound like a glitch.. Cloaked thors? Void rays? Tanks? (Edit: Motherships???) I've played games where exploits become part of gameplay but the mechanics of burrowed NP make no sense.
plus the idea of have a unit that can cast everything while burrowed, then what is the point of making it a unit above ground to begin with? Then it is like the Lurker (oh wait! they removed that!)
because you cannot cast it while burrowed, if you read the OP you have to issue the command before you burrow. Essentially making you reveal your Infestor before you NP or FG.
On July 14 2010 17:24 v3chr0 wrote: I'd definitely say keep it in, Blizzard probably feels the same way, why would there be a burrowed neural parasite animation if they hadn't thought of this already?
Seriously, look closely at the burrowed NP animation, that is way too detailed and awesome looking to be a coincidence.
Because in the alpha it could use all it's abilities while burrowed, it just uses the animation they had already made.
On July 14 2010 17:24 v3chr0 wrote: I'd definitely say keep it in, Blizzard probably feels the same way, why would there be a burrowed neural parasite animation if they hadn't thought of this already?
Seriously, look closely at the burrowed NP animation, that is way too detailed and awesome looking to be a coincidence.
Because in the alpha it could use all it's abilities while burrow, it just uses the animation they had already made.
On July 14 2010 15:49 Zozo wrote: So if we add the patrol spread, void ray target switching and this.... hmmm
Whats patrol spread?
You can spread your units out to reduce splash damage by rapidly alternating between Patrolling on the unit blob (similar to how you make units dance by patrolling on themselves) and move. They will scatter in a chaotic order to help against splash.
Personally, I hope they keep this in. This bug isn't that useful, but it will add some depth to the game. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting. I'm hoping Blizzard doesn't take this out. The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Just think of ninja fungal growth as a army moves out. It would be great to delay pushes.
Don't kid yourselves, this will be patched as soon as they find out what's causing it. They've stated several times that they want units abilities to be transparent. This is exactly what they don't want, a hidden feature.
Ya, I also figured this is something that will be removed, it is clearly a bug. As far as i figure they only disable the command cards when burrowing and refrain from adding a clear restriction on the spells for when they are burrowed.
This is probably a really easy fix. I would however love to see NP become castable when burrowed in general.
I'd say that the least they can do is to make all the spells castable while burrowed but make the infestor auto unburrow when the spell is cast if it is anything else than infested terran. That is a good compromise.
In the editor, just by modifying the "Infestor (Burrowed)" to not have the abilities fixes the issue. Instead you get a message "No Units Support that ability"
If nothing else, just as with the voidray glitch, I'd say Blizzard should give this several months to be developed and integrated into strategies before deciding to fix it, as it's indeed quite interesting.
Concerning transparancy, if something is only useful at high level then it's basically always transparent, since you can't be a high level player and not have an obligation to keep yourself up-to-date on the latest strategies and tricks.
Personally, I hope they keep this in. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting.
The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
Personally, I hope they keep this in. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting.
The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
so? sorry but A TURRET deals with it. i think it's fine and could be fun. more things to worry about as terran
No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
Although finding and using exploits like this obviously adds more functionality to the game, it doesn't really feel right. Seems like it should fall into the same category as using macros and programmable buttons on some mice and keyboards, or map-hacks.
Isn't this similar to the little exploits that athletes use to gain an advantage in sports? Like soccer players taking a dive to get a free kick, hockey players jabbing an opponent with their stick during a body check when the ref isn't looking...
It would be better if Blizzard intentionally adds more functions to allow for a higher skill ceiling then to carelessly leave loopholes in their game.
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring.
wow, burrowed neural parasite with 20 infestors against a terran mech army. finally, in increments of 12 seconds and 100mana at a time per infestor, zerg will finally be a real race ]]
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring.
ye glitches can make for a very good game... if they fit well in with the rest and isnt to abuseable. I do however think this is mighty overpowred, atleast considering infestors are already kinda op without being able to neural parasite from below :d
Dimaga used this in a match against Painuser. It wasn't anything gamebreaking, he just used it as a way to try and get into the Tank line. And wasn't too successful at it anyway. Still, he did manage to damage some tanks with the Siege Tank's own splash damage, and it didn't cost him anything besides energy.
I understand one replay doesn't prove anything, but I really think this skill is helpful in making IT's at least a bit more useful. So let the Infestors have it. Keep in mind I'm saying this as someone who mains Terran.
Edit: Woah, sorry didn't read the OP. This is something completely different. Anyway, I think this deserves a bit of testing, but it was obviously unintended and I think Blizzard will probably take it out regardless of how it effects competitive play.
The problem with this bug is that burrowed infestor does not loose the fungal growth or neural parasite ability, it just removes them from the "command card"
I noticed that the AI would still use abilities removed from it's command cards, and that with a hack, a user could emulate this, and do stuff such as NP while burrowed a bit easier. I don't know if there are any situations similar to the infestor's though which would also make that useful though (cant' think of any).
I'd say it's not right to keep a glitch like this, obviously. But I think As it is right now - 100 energy, research-required spell that has a cast time, and only 12s duration, among other problems - it would make sense if you could just be able to cast while burrowed. Fungal growth too, as long as it does that cool unburrow thing when it does it so that it can still be attacked.
i think it will be nerfed, but i'd like blizzard to wait a while before nerfing it to see if how it effects the game.
NP ravens from burrowed seems insanely overpowered though. i predict terrans will get slaughtered once zerg players get familiar with the burrowed cast.
it also makes infested terran useless again, since you can cast the other stuff while burrowed anyway.
you can't really compare this 'exploit' to mutastacking, anti-turret observer etc... they didn't potentially instagib a 200 food army.
I wonder, was this possible in the previous patches and we haven't found it before? Wow. Because I don't see how the latest changes have caused it. Rather this inspired people to try burrowed casting, even with those spells.
On July 14 2010 19:47 tarsier wrote: NP ravens from burrowed seems insanely overpowered though.
Only if there're very few ravens... like 1. Otherwise, to expect multiple ravens to get NP simultaneously within 12 seconds and make serious damage, gl.
While I voted to keep the ability in the game, I don't think there is a zergling's chance in hell it will stay. Just think of the way Blizzard has designed the game so far, do you really think Blizz would allow something like this to stay in the game, given all of their other game design decisions?
Face it, All Your "Tricks" Are Belong To Blizzard.
Even if you do NP all the Ravens, can't the terran just do a scan, the tentacles are clearly visible, should be insta-gib on all the Infestors if they are under a bio-ball or such.
On July 14 2010 20:05 felizk wrote: Even if you do NP all the Ravens, can't the terran just do a scan, the tentacles are clearly visible, should be insta-gib on all the Infestors if they are under a bio-ball or such.
what bioball? you've just seeker missile nuked about 60 marine/maras
This could potentially be even worse for protoss if you don't have an observer with your army you would either have to kill your own colossi or wait 12 s of the colossi killing your army.
This is awesome. This is the kind of cool tricks we need in this game. Especially for zerg units. Please keep this blizzard. Or at least give infestors increased energy regen while burrowed. You gotta give us something .
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring.
Blizzard is actually trying to design the game this time around rather than let strategies emerge due to coding errors. Sure muta stacks and hold lurkers were fun and exciting, that doesn't mean they should keep the design philosophy of "game design by software glitch", something you'd realize if you had any brains.
Maybe burrowed casting is the spice-up Zerg needs. If that's case, Blizzard should include it next patch, but "keep it a glitch so i can feel moar special" is just dumb.
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring.
Blizzard is actually trying to design the game this time around rather than let strategies emerge due to coding errors. Sure muta stacks and hold lurkers were fun and exciting, that doesn't mean they should keep the design philosophy of "game design by software glitch", something you'd realize if you had any brains.
Maybe burrowed casting is the spice-up Zerg needs. If that's case, Blizzard should include it next patch, but "keep it a glitch so i can feel moar special" is just dumb.
Yes code it into the game, maybe make it require 25 more energy per any spell while burrowed. Dont say dumb things and then call ppl dumb. everyone knows that ppl who make games arent trying to make glitches haha,.. if they want cheats/ eggs they can put it in themselves. But millions of ppl playing a video game,, and for every video game glitches will be found.
It saddens me that there are so many 'Battlenet forum' style posts here of people calling for 'immediate action' from Blizzard because of various 'game breaking' glitches. Yet nobody has even used it effectively in a ladder game let alone a high level competitive match.
Fortunately, Blizzard will probably take a measured approach to this and wait to see the implications before changing anything. At least, they used to.
It saddens me that there are so many 'Battlenet forum' style posts here of people calling for 'immediate action' from Blizzard because of various 'game breaking' glitches. Yet nobody has even used it effectively in a ladder game let alone a high level competitive match.
Fortunately, Blizzard will probably take a measured approach to this and wait to see the implications before changing anything. At least, they used to.
Personally, I hope they keep this in. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting.
The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
Actually you can't do that, since you need to unburrow every time you want to do something else. So either you can cast fungal or you can cast parasite or you can move. Every time you want to do something else you will have to unburrow and then burrow again. So basically in order to harass a mineral line you still have to unburrow a bit before casting, and if you want to do something else while waiting you need to unburrow again etc. And controlling any other unit also forces you to unburrow afterwards.
Fazing is way more game breaking since under optimal circumstances it allows the voidray to counter its counters. Two voidrays which fazes easily kill 2 queens for example which could potentially make voidray rushes impossible to stop for zerg. One charged voidray which fazes could kill 2 queens.
Definitely keep this. For people whining, just think about why muta stacking and hold lurkers were not removed. "Oh my god muta stacking is so imba he can stack his mutas and one hit my marines and scvs blizzard take this out right NOW" and "omg hold lurkers are so gay they dont reveal themselves and they annhilated my mnm group blizzard take this op shit right out now!"
So you guys just want the entire game dumbed down so you have an easier time fighting people? If thats the case, then dont worry - anyone doing thus cute micro tricks will be wasting a lot of time babysitting his infestors so much that they wont be macroing in the lower leagues. So i dont think its a cause for concern since it would beautify top level play and make things interesting.
In any case, if its really gamebreaking and op, blizzard would remove it, so just sit back.
I believe this hasn't been mentioned yet. You don't necessarily need to burrow and wait for victim to come. You can position your burrowed infestors while having one unburrowed elsewhere. When needed, you select all the infestors in a group and use the R+x on unborrowed one (TAB subgroup). That way you have the 'select target for x' cursor for all the infestors in group.
Anyway, I like this glitch and hope Blizzard will at least wait a while to see how it affects gameplay.
I'm a Z and I would love it if this hung around. But honestly if you find a bug like this in the beta phase of a video game you should probably fix it. If this was discovered a few months from now I would say keep it as is. The whole point of a beta is to find and fix bugs!
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
On July 14 2010 19:06 imbetterthanu wrote: Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring.
Your flaming in ridiculous. Sueco has a good point.
Everytime some small bug appears in SC2 a sizable portion of the community begs for it to be left in to "make it more like BW/require more skill." It honestly is pathetic. And in this case, the glitch doesn't even appear to take nearly the technical skill of something like muta stacking or patrol micro.
The SC2 engine is capable of WAY more than the BW engine. It seems like any way that Blizzard thinks a unit should behave, they could make it behave that way.
If they wanted Infestors to be able to cast while burrowed, they would make it so. Whether through upgrade, needing vision, or just being able to do so. It's been clear so far that they don't want that, with the exception of the recent change to the IT.
I mean, think about how ridiculous it would be if two or three infestors could burrow into a fully saturated expansion and fungal growth the mineral line while burrowed, instantly killing it all. At least with a raid somewhat comprable, like DTs, you have a chance to evacuate your workers.
Perhaps more ridiculous: being able to NP my yummy T3 units and not even being able to snipe the Infestor without detection? Just sounds a little too strong.
I'd be fine with Blizzard testing Infestors being able to cast while burrowed(although to me it seems like it would be too powerful). But there's no need to do it in this buggy format. One thing that is so refreshing about SC2 is how smoothly it runs.
But as it is now, I think Infestors are fine without needing to cast while burrowed. I don't play Zerg, so maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen them used in high level play to great effectiveness. If they could cast everything while burrowed, that would be like High Templar having DT-like permanent cloak. Doesn't that just sound a little ridiculous?
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
On July 14 2010 19:06 imbetterthanu wrote: Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring.
Your flaming in ridiculous. Sueco has a good point.
Everytime some small bug appears in SC2 a sizable portion of the community begs for it to be left in to "make it more like BW/require more skill." It honestly is pathetic. And in this case, the glitch doesn't even appear to take nearly the technical skill of something like muta stacking or patrol micro.
The SC2 engine is capable of WAY more than the BW engine. It seems like any way that Blizzard thinks a unit should behave, they could make it behave that way.
If they wanted Infestors to be able to cast while burrowed, they would make it so. Whether through upgrade, needing vision, or just being able to do so. It's been clear so far that they don't want that, with the exception of the recent change to the IT.
I mean, think about how ridiculous it would be if two or three infestors could burrow into a fully saturated expansion and fungal growth the mineral line while burrowed, instantly killing it all. At least with a raid somewhat comprable, like DTs, you have a chance to evacuate your workers.
Perhaps more ridiculous: being able to NP my yummy T3 units and not even being able to snipe the Infestor without detection? Just sounds a little too strong.
I'd be fine with Blizzard testing Infestors being able to cast while burrowed(although to me it seems like it would be too powerful). But there's no need to do it in this buggy format. One thing that is so refreshing about SC2 is how smoothly it runs.
But as it is now, I think Infestors are fine without needing to cast while burrowed. I don't play Zerg, so maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen them used in high level play to great effectiveness. If they could cast everything while burrowed, that would be like High Templar having DT-like permanent cloak. Doesn't that just sound a little ridiculous?
This is all hypothetical. Show me at least 10 replays of this being exploited in ladder and 10 at competitive level and maybe you have a point. Until then, it's just something to watch out for.
On July 14 2010 22:34 BOOWOO wrote: If they wanted Infestors to be able to cast while burrowed, they would make it so. Whether through upgrade, needing vision, or just being able to do so. It's been clear so far that they don't want that, with the exception of the recent change to the IT.
I think the discussion is not about "being able to", it's "being able to if you put more time/skill to micro the unit"
I think the infestor/void ray tricks are interresting. Blizzard should let us time to test them, and then remove them or balance them (lower dmg for void ray while using the trick if it's too strong).
If players bring something interresting to the game, should Blizzard remove it because it was not intended? They should analyse it and decide if it's good for sc2.
So basically you need vision and the infestor to be unburrowed before you can do it, seems fair enough, I'll believe its op when I see someone abuse it in a ladder game.
It saddens me that there are so many 'Battlenet forum' style posts here of people calling for 'immediate action' from Blizzard because of various 'game breaking' glitches. Yet nobody has even used it effectively in a ladder game let alone a high level competitive match.
Fortunately, Blizzard will probably take a measured approach to this and wait to see the implications before changing anything. At least, they used to.
As a former cheesey zerg player, I found this hilarious. And blizzard should leave this in. its not hold position lurkers were hard to use in the first game, and it really added to the depth of the zerg game.
stop lurker isn't even close to being a bug. but i see the similiarity between it and this infestor thing because you sortof babysit the units for a while... i'm wondering a bit why lurkers didn't get another button to use...oh well. none of the other units had a 'hold your fire' button, but maybe they oughr to add it in for sc2. it would be nice, and they have a lot of button space for it, i guess. jusr as long as it's not mandatory for use with attack or movement buttons.
On July 14 2010 15:49 Zozo wrote: So if we add the patrol spread, void ray target switching and this.... hmmm
Whats patrol spread?
You can spread your units out to reduce splash damage by rapidly alternating between Patrolling on the unit blob (similar to how you make units dance by patrolling on themselves) and move. They will scatter in a chaotic order to help against splash.
Personally, I hope they keep this in. This bug isn't that useful, but it will add some depth to the game. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting. I'm hoping Blizzard doesn't take this out. The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Just think of ninja fungal growth as a army moves out. It would be great to delay pushes.
thx man i love how glitches are starting to appear. this is definantley what sc2 needs!!
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
On July 14 2010 19:06 imbetterthanu wrote: Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring.
Your flaming in ridiculous. Sueco has a good point.
Everytime some small bug appears in SC2 a sizable portion of the community begs for it to be left in to "make it more like BW/require more skill." It honestly is pathetic. And in this case, the glitch doesn't even appear to take nearly the technical skill of something like muta stacking or patrol micro.
The SC2 engine is capable of WAY more than the BW engine. It seems like any way that Blizzard thinks a unit should behave, they could make it behave that way.
If they wanted Infestors to be able to cast while burrowed, they would make it so. Whether through upgrade, needing vision, or just being able to do so. It's been clear so far that they don't want that, with the exception of the recent change to the IT.
I mean, think about how ridiculous it would be if two or three infestors could burrow into a fully saturated expansion and fungal growth the mineral line while burrowed, instantly killing it all. At least with a raid somewhat comprable, like DTs, you have a chance to evacuate your workers.
Perhaps more ridiculous: being able to NP my yummy T3 units and not even being able to snipe the Infestor without detection? Just sounds a little too strong.
I'd be fine with Blizzard testing Infestors being able to cast while burrowed(although to me it seems like it would be too powerful). But there's no need to do it in this buggy format. One thing that is so refreshing about SC2 is how smoothly it runs.
But as it is now, I think Infestors are fine without needing to cast while burrowed. I don't play Zerg, so maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen them used in high level play to great effectiveness. If they could cast everything while burrowed, that would be like High Templar having DT-like permanent cloak. Doesn't that just sound a little ridiculous?
well this obviously recuire timing so why souldn't it be in?
Is it possible to que up fungal growths or neural parasites using the SHIFT key like the infestor above ground. Because I attempted this bug myself and consequently I could only cast one spell at a time. Maybe my infestors didn't have enough energy, but I would like a video showing multiple que casting if it were possible please.
I really hope blizzard doesn't change this, either to make it possible to just cast those burrowed normally or to remove the bug, this is a perfect example of a trick that is not overpowering, takes skill to pull off, and can give you an edge in high level games.
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring.
Blizzard is actually trying to design the game this time around rather than let strategies emerge due to coding errors. Sure muta stacks and hold lurkers were fun and exciting, that doesn't mean they should keep the design philosophy of "game design by software glitch", something you'd realize if you had any brains.
Maybe burrowed casting is the spice-up Zerg needs. If that's case, Blizzard should include it next patch, but "keep it a glitch so i can feel moar special" is just dumb.
That's like saying bunny hopping in css should be removed because everyone can't do it. Or Russian walk in cs 1.6 or flick shots in cod2/cod4 or strafe jumping in quake etc... If everyone can do it, it becomes a stale game, no excitement nothing. I'd rather have to put in the time to do "amazing" things in a game, than have the game do them for me.
They're supposed to keep these "bugs." Muta stacking? Horribly effective bug, but really made the game a lot better for the ones who exploited it best. This just gives the infestor finally the depth we need. Like hold lurkers. Or how banelings can now auto explode/explode while underground. These are what makes the Zerg swarm finally get the the stuff it needs.
Toss has sentries. Terran have Ghosts. There is no par early spellcaster for the Zerg, so make them better otherwise.
On July 14 2010 17:35 ascoe wrote: It seems strange to keep infestors from simply casting everything while burrowed if this exploit is possible. Is this an example of blizzard rewarding players w/ faster mechanics?
Why would something like that patched in so late?_?
When you use Neural Parasite while Burrowed, their forces will not fire back at the Parasited units automatically. Provided they don't have Detection
really makes it sound like a glitch.. Cloaked thors? Void rays? Tanks? (Edit: Motherships???) I've played games where exploits become part of gameplay but the mechanics of burrowed NP make no sense.
i corrected the OP, since it was confusing. i meant that they need detection to see burrowed infestor. they can see their parasited unit just fine, it's no different than a regular parasited unit.
Okay so everyone knows, in order to do this burrow cast YOU HAVE TO START UNBURROWED, and you no longer can move underground (you have to unburrow and reburrow to do that). so the infestor opens itself up to damage specifically, hell the only difference from moving in to position to cast, un borrow, cast, reburrow, and this is the state of the infestor post cast.
Normally the infestor is burrowing immediately after the spell and then can move
With this the infestor in already burrowed and can't move.
I guess you could say it's unfair because if terran only makes one raven and it gets NP'd and terran doesn't scan or kill the infestor, or wait for 12 seconds. then maybe they might get burrow ambushed or have no way of killing an immobile infestor.
And to those who said either muta stacking wasn't a bug, and someone else said it was much more difficult than this. i laugh at you. yeah it was a bug and it's so easy it's done at D levels in ICCUP hell i learned to do it as one of the first few things i did when learning BW (started playing BW in beta downtime, but been watching for years). Just because something is done by skilled players doesn't mean it requires skill, it just means that it makes the most difference to skilled players because it gives a slight advantage to the zerg player. this will be the same way. it gives a slight advantage.
Blizzard is actually trying to design the game this time around rather than let strategies emerge due to coding errors.
Then apparently they lack the talent or direction to do so properly, and players should welcome any emergent playstyle option they find.
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
This is true. Knowing about an obscure glitch itself is not skill. However, due to the often esoteric nature of glitches, they lend themselves to a form of execution that requires a level of timing and reaction above and beyond what the designers originally had intended in the game.
Muta Stacking is an obscure glitch, and knowing how to do so is not skill. But due to the arcane nature of the movements required to properly execute an attack by stacked mutas, simply knowing how to is not enough. It also requires a level of tactical and reactionary skill above and beyond that present in the normal game. In fact, that level of skill is so high that the difference between a D zerg player and a C zerg player is often solely centered around their micromanagement of their mutalisks, continuing to scale with scale into A+ and beyond.
This bug should be retained not because it allows a select few people to gain an advantage because they read TL.net, but rather, it allows for a higher level of tactical and "micro" play that is both not present in the original game, and not designed for in the original game.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
This was kind of stupid :/. I'm not sure if you understand how this works, but in order to fungal growth, I have to unburrow, burrow again, and hit fungal growth during the reburrow casting animation. Since fungal growth has no casting time, if you are not already in position, it is absolutely identical to simply burrowing, moving, unburrowing, casting, and instantly burrowing.
I mean, think about how ridiculous it would be if two or three infestors could burrow into a fully saturated expansion and fungal growth the mineral line while burrowed, instantly killing it all. At least with a raid somewhat comprable, like DTs, you have a chance to evacuate your workers.
They can ALREADY DO THIS. The ONLY application of this skill is through an application similar to "lurker hold", where you are anticipating enemy movement.
Your flaming in ridiculous. Sueco has a good point.
Everytime some small bug appears in SC2 a sizable portion of the community begs for it to be left in to "make it more like BW/require more skill." It honestly is pathetic.
Why? Because you said so? What is "pathetic" about asking for emergent forms of gameplay to let remain in existence for the sake of a more competitive game in lieu of full support by the designers?
And in this case, the glitch doesn't even appear to take nearly the technical skill of something like muta stacking or patrol micro.
No, but it requires significantly more tactical skill then either.
The SC2 engine is capable of WAY more than the BW engine. It seems like any way that Blizzard thinks a unit should behave, they could make it behave that way.
And? The game is still complex and competitive, but you'd be arguing an unarguable point if you claimed it was as mechanically and tactically demanding as Brood War with as high of a skill cap.
Toss has sentries. Terran have Ghosts. There is no par early spellcaster for the Zerg, so make them better otherwise.
They have the Queen. Outside of the macro mechanic (Spawn Larva), Creep Tumors and Transfusion are two very good spells. And the Queen also doesn't cost any gas, unlike the other two you mentioned.
On July 15 2010 02:50 cocosoft wrote: Yes, remove it... ...Or wait! Buff infestor to allow it to do it without a glitch!
To do what? Allow them to cast while underground? That is NOT the nature of this glitch, and that would horrendously break the infestor.
Buff infestors to give them an ability which makes them burrow but now move around and the player can't make any other macro or micromanagement options unless they hit cancel and then the infestor can move but can't cast spells anymore but while they don't do anything else they can cast fungal growth or neural parasite while the infestor is still underground?
...
Blizzard will not implement that as a skill. They should not implement the skill. Any other implementation would be less tactically demanding and overpowered, or even more convoluted.
However its important to note that convolution that results out of piss poor skill design is not the same as a complex mechanic that emerges out of the natural interaction of simple mechanics.
The above spell makes absolutely no sense. But realizing that any spell you que when you hit burrow can still be cast after burrowing is a natural realization that simultaneously makes sense and is the sum of its part. Turning the same mechanic into a spell would suddenly make it unprecedented and irrelevant.
Saying its bad because its unintended and thus, inherently increases the learning curve for new players. Well, thats certainly a negative, but only if their is an alternative solution available. So far, Blizzard has shown themselves unwilling or incapable of designs that present a similar level of nuance as unintended mechanics, not through inherently complex and convoluted spells, but as simplistic spells that can still offer an huge array of different dynamic forms of usage that scale with skill.
On July 14 2010 18:47 G.s)NarutO wrote: Its great, has its advantages and disadvantages, just like lurker hold and mutalisk stack. Leave it in. And I'm Terran.
I agree, I'm also a T player, and this is good stuff for SC2. Just like hold lurkers.
I say leave it in it's interesting, and it seems to only be np to be very useful, although doing it with fungal growth does move your infester out of the way, but i wouldn't say it's a large advantage.
This must be the only place in software engineering where the end-users could actually debate weather they want glitches in there end product.
I don't know how SEs would feel about it if the end-user wanted it in but, at least from my perspective, you should try to eliminate bugs in a program, that is just what I would want to do. Seeing a bug in my program makes me instantly want to fix it. I don't know but if I was a blizzard programmer I would see this and cringe.
One more thing to note, there will always be bugs in a large program, SC2 will be no exception, even if they do get rid of this glitch, some where down the line we will find more.
On July 15 2010 03:10 MokuZ wrote: This must be the only place in software engineering where the end-users could actually debate weather they want glitches in there end product.
I don't know how SEs would feel about it if the end-user wanted it in but, at least from my perspective, you should try to eliminate bugs in a program, that is just what I would want to do. Seeing a bug in my program makes me instantly want to fix it. I don't know but if I was a blizzard programmer I would see this and cringe.
One more thing to note, there will always be bugs in a large program, SC2 will be no exception, even if they do get rid of this glitch, some where down the line we will find more.
They can ALREADY DO THIS. The ONLY application of this skill is through an application similar to "lurker hold", where you are anticipating enemy movement.
EDIT: Yes, you're right they can. And this bug doesn't really affect this strategy since they cant move while burrowed and cast the spell. My mistake.
Why? Because you said so? What is "pathetic" about asking for emergent forms of gameplay to let remain in existence for the sake of a more competitive game in lieu of full support by the designers?
Just stating my opinion. That's the point of a discussion forum. I think its pathetic that people are clamoring for bugs, which many SC2 users will not even be aware of, when the new engine and design team are perfectly capable of designing the unit to work this way if they want it to.
This isn't 1999. There's no need to rely on bugs because of an inferior engine to enhance gameplay.
And anyway, this bug is very easy to do. Not only is it easy, but it greatly enhances the effectiveness of the Infestor in ways that seem to me (and the design team) overpowered. If this wasn't the case, the Infestor would already be able to cast while burrowed. It used to be able to cast while burrowed in the Alpha stages (maybe in the beta too? my memory is fuzzy) and it was removed.
No, but it requires significantly more tactical skill then either.
I don't see how. All you have to do is hit one more key than casting it normally in a somewhat narrow window.
And? The game is still complex and competitive, but you'd be arguing an unarguable point if you claimed it was as mechanically and tactically demanding as Brood War with as high of a skill cap.
I don't think it is as mechancially demanding as BW, but its not as far off as some make it seem.
I'd like to see reps of a 20+ minute high-level game with lots of skirmishes where people don't miss a single Spawn Larvae/MULE/Chronoboost. I'd like to see one of a similar nature where people don't get a CC/Nexus/Queen with close to or at 100 energy.
Also, the damage in this game is so high in general that you always have to be wary of your army, on top of some new, demanding macro mechanics.
I also haven't seen many replays at all where people actually split their armies into like 5-6 control groups and split/micro/position them to full effectiveness. Most people are stuck in 1-2 control group mode.
There is so much room for growth in this game, and I love how after 2 months of beta play a lot of people have written it off as inferior to its predecessor. Just think about the evolution of Pro Korean BW from 2002 and earlier to the present. Without a doubt, we'll be looking back at these "concrete" assumptions about SC2 from its beta in 5 years and wonder WTF were we thinking. Even in a year from now, the skill gap grow tremedously and strategies evolve.
I don't know how SEs would feel about it if the end-user wanted it in but, at least from my perspective, you should try to eliminate bugs in a program, that is just what I would want to do. Seeing a bug in my program makes me instantly want to fix it. I don't know but if I was a blizzard programmer I would see this and cringe.
Whats the difference between a strategy the developers didn't forsee and a bug like this? Both are the unintended result of the interaction of properly working game mechanics that were not forseen by the developers.
I would argue this isn't even a glitch.
I don't think it is as mechancially demanding as BW, but its not as far off as some make it seem.
I'd like to see reps of a 20+ minute high-level game with lots of skirmishes where people don't miss a single Spawn Larvae/MULE/Chronoboost. I'd like to see one of a similar nature where people don't get a CC/Nexus/Queen with close to or at 100 energy.
Also, the damage in this game is so high in general that you always have to be wary of your army, on top of some new, demanding macro mechanics.
I also haven't seen many replays at all where people actually split their armies into like 5-6 control groups and properly split/micro them.
There is so much room for growth in this game, and I love how after 2 months of beta play a lot of people have written it off as inferior to its predecessor. Just think about the evolution of Pro Korean BW from 2002 and earlier to the present. Without a doubt, we'll be looking back at these "concrete" assumptions about SC2 from its beta in 5 years and wonder WTF were we thinking. Even in a year from now, the skill gap grow tremedously and strategies evolve.
#1 Your quotes hurt my eyes ;_;
#2 I didn't say Starcraft 2 had a low skill cap or was uncompetitive. Your examples were completely irrelevant. Your examples are saying that people have not reached the skill cap, and will not reach them for some time, if ever. Ok. I agree. Thats not at all what I was talking about -_-.
I'm saying that any casual observation into the mechanics of the game can only yield the conclusion that the skill cap will be lower, and that the player has less decisions to make.
This is a fact. If we simply analyze player inputs, Starcraft 2 has clearly less of them. If we analyze how much skill (or player input) is required to execute maneuvers, once again, Starcraft 2 requires less. The precision and timings of playerinput is by definition mechanical skill, and by this definition, you cannot argue Starcraft 2 has more occasions that require precise and well timed player control.
No they can't. Currently (bug aside) they have to unburrow to cast FG. This gives the opponent a window (albeit a small one) to try and evacuate workers.
Sir no offense but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
You STILL have to unburrow in order for this bug to work. Please reread the OP so you have an vague idea of how this mechanic works.
edit:
I don't see how. All you have to do is hit one more key than casting it normally in a somewhat narrow window.
Well now that you realize how this mechanics works, you see how now right?
To be honest... as a Protoss player I kinda like it =\ I think things like this are vital to the games development. Let it stay for the space of 5-6months then we begin to evaluate if it is good or bad.
Heck, if there is too much of an issue could always shorten it's range etc.
Just like the voidray discovery on protoss, fazing. The game is beginning to develop but people see something fancy or strong and press the panic button. Chill, let the game develop.
PS: Everyone talks of "balance" and crap but really it's complete bias BS aka everyone loves it when a thing is discovered for their own race but hate it when something is found in another. Guess random is voided of this (thumbs up there) but most of these posts have no rational argument it's only to cover themselves in a game because they are afraid of being challenged by something creative.
An infestor able to neural parasite while burrowed is SOOOO overpowered. If they could just do infested terran or fungal growth while burrowed, its not as OP.
They can ALREADY DO THIS. The ONLY application of this skill is through an application similar to "lurker hold", where you are anticipating enemy movement.
No they can't. Currently (bug aside) they have to unburrow to cast FG. This gives the opponent a window (albeit a small one) to try and evacuate workers.
First of all, there's no "window to evacuate workers." It's basically instantaneous, there's no cast time or projectile time. More importantly, even if there was time, it's still equal to this bug as Casting Fungal with a Burrowed Infestor reveals the infestor for 1 second. read the OP people!
On July 15 2010 03:34 Kryptonite wrote: An infestor able to neural parasite while burrowed is SOOOO overpowered. If they could just do infested terran or fungal growth while burrowed, its not as OP.
How do you know? how can anyone know.
Arguments against "OP" - One scan/observer and it's already undone. It's just like having some infestors in the long grass...
No one can decide if it is good or bad until we damn well test the life out of this thing at a competitive level. I'd sure as be damn well impressed if a zerg pulled this off well against me.
First of all, there's no "window to evacuate workers." It's basically instantaneous, there's no cast time or projectile time. More importantly, even if there was time, it's still equal to this bug as Casting Fungal with a Burrowed Infestor reveals the infestor for 1 second. read the OP people!
Yea, I went back and edited that post. I was a little confused there. Thanks.
they only see the tentacle leading to the unit from where the infestor is burrowed, but not the infestor itself, it can only be targetted by aoe spells and splash. does EMP reveal burrowed units too?
I can't believe such a huge glitch got turned into a wannabe "pro-microtactic-nofixplz-we<3abusing" so fast xD
All that's left to do for blizzard now is to glitch up a terran unit so all 3 races will have a bugged unit people will claim to be "pro" for exploiting ^__^
On July 15 2010 04:33 Santriell wrote: I can't believe such a huge glitch got turned into a wannabe "pro-microtactic-nofixplz-we<3abusing" so fast xD
All that's left to do for blizzard now is to glitch up a terran unit so all 3 races will have a bugged unit people will claim to be "pro" for exploiting ^__^
updated my OP with this, for people like you who are blowing this way out of proportion
NOTE: The infestor is revealed for 1 second while casting Fungal Growth when Burrowed. Only applies to Fungal Growth. This means that because you could always move Infestors while Burrowed, you could UnBurrow, Fungal, then Re-Burrow... it's basically equivalent to casting while Burrowed because of the 1 second reveal. Only difference is that this way guarantees fungal going off (provided no detection, which is really risky to just "hope" he doesnt have or wont scan), while if you try to unburrow and fungal then it may die before fungaling
That just leaves Neural Parasite as being the only useful aspect of this glitch
Since people seem to be concerned about how strong it is, let me remind everyone how much gas and time is required:
After Lair 150 100 80, Research Burrow 100 100 100, Build Infestation Pit 150 100 80, Build Infestors 100 150 50 each, and you want several Infestors for Neural Parasite, Research Neural Parasite 150 150 110, After each 50 Infestor finishes, wait another 64 for 50 more Energy, as Neural Parasite costs 100 Energy. Now you can finally use a spell that only lasts 12, after which they get their unit/s back and then what? And by then Terrans will most likely have Scan energy on at least one of their 2 Orbital Commands, even if they don't have Turrets, which they often will, especially for roaches/mutas.
For Protoss, well infestors are already a dangerous investment for zerg to get as Feedback from HTs counter them so well, which they can certainly have well in time for Neural Parasite (no research required, only 50 energy, similar tech requirements, HTs useful for Storm as well and even archons have their uses). As for Detection, well 98% of Protosses will have cannons @ natural well ahead of any Infestors, and before/when they move out, most players will have Observers, completely nullifying this trick.
Point being, its uses are very limited and nowhere near what some people have been making it out to be.
I think everyone in this thread has collectively misunderstood this mechanic.
You cannot cast while burrowed normally. The mechanic works by queing up a spell AS YOUR BURROWING. Once burrowed, you retain the targetting cursor and can use your spell. However, the targetting cursor will go away if you do any other action other then left click. You cannot que any additional move commands with that targetting cursor besides the one you qued originally. If you decide to go do something else, the targetting cursor goes away and you have to unburrow and reburrow.
Lets see how this effects usage. So lets say I wanted to burrow into my opponents base, ninja 2 thors, and make them kill each other. That would require I Burrow, instantly and accurate click on the opponents base, then instantly hit parasite. Now, until my infestors reach the target I clicked, I cannot do ANY OTHER ACTION. If I clicked an area 10 range away from a thor, I could not mind control it. I would have to unburrow.
If I wanted to normally fungal growth SCVs, this is how it would go down. Get 2 infestors. Click on their base. Go macro up and do other stuff. Unburrow, cast instantly traveling fungal growth, reburrow instantly, click back. Thats 4 clicks. My infestor is exposed for 1 second.
If I wanted to do this trick, I would have to burrow, then NOT DO ANYTHING until my infestors get their.
On July 15 2010 05:42 Half wrote: I think everyone in this thread has collectively misunderstood this mechanic.
You cannot cast while burrowed normally. The mechanic works by queing up a spell AS YOUR BURROWING. Once burrowed, you retain the targetting cursor and can use your spell. However, the targetting cursor will go away if you do any other action other then left click. You cannot que any additional move commands with that targetting cursor besides the one you qued originally. If you decide to go do something else, the targetting cursor goes away and you have to unburrow and reburrow.
This has tons of possibilities though. . .Infestor at the watch tower sees enemies moving out, burrows, then does whatever spell he wants. But yes, people are sensationalizing it.
I don't see how this is OP. This only opens up alot of new tactics to be played. Which are obviously EASILY countered by a scan/observer. Believe me in a year this wil happen: Hey, remember that game where ''Insert player'' came back after getting al his probes killed by using the fungal growth while burrowing trick. Yeah that was amazing.
On July 15 2010 07:16 yellowmoe wrote: You should have written this article when the beta was over. It going to suck if they remove this as this could be my detterent to meching terran. T0T
Yeah, the more I see of the infestor, the more I think of him as the anti-mech.
On July 15 2010 05:48 ultratorr wrote: What about in team games? Can you use this trick, while your ally is moving your infestors?
That would be a case of pimpest play.
On July 15 2010 06:51 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: b) Too huge damage potential Once being caught surprised by such a harass it's looking really, really bad for you. There are some situations you can hardly recover from:
Charged Voidray hammering on your base while your infantry is far away / dead. Banshee in your mineral line 2 hitting workers while it takes another 10 secs to scan. 3-4 Pheonixes / Vikings making short work of your Overorld and can even easily take on ground units. And a lot more.
Basically this stuff punishes your harder than anything else.
Technically you could queue up the burrow, move to enemy base, cast fungal on mineral line, move a bit more, cast another fungal on the same spot, move back and it would do exactly that. The only problem is that you can't do anything else during that time or it would ruin it.
Personally, I hope they keep this in. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting.
The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
Get some detection, problem solved. Still a fairly mediocre caster unit that is entirely too squishy.
Personally, I hope they keep this in. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting.
The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
Get some detection, problem solved. Still a fairly mediocre caster unit that is entirely too squishy.
You guys are acting like this glitch makes the Infestor an invincible and undetectable monster that can do a Fungal Growth for 10000 damage while spawning Ultralisk out of the sky. The fact is that a simple Missile Turret, Observer, Photon Cannon, or Overseer can counter this. You normally already have these in the first place. If you really think this is overpowered, then you must hate DTs and Nukes.
On July 15 2010 07:57 Whole wrote: To those who are claiming this is gamebreaking:
You guys are acting like this glitch makes the Infestor an invincible and undetectable monster that can do a Fungal Growth for 10000 damage while spawning Ultralisk out of the sky. The fact is that a simple Missile Turret, Observer, Photon Cannon, or Overseer can counter this. You normally already have these in the first place. If you really think this is overpowered, then you must hate DTs and Nukes.
You forgot ravens and scans. And the fact that this is super situational and hard to do.
Personally, I hope they keep this in. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting.
The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
Get some detection, problem solved. Still a fairly mediocre caster unit that is entirely too squishy.
you didnt just call infestor a mediocre caster unit that is squishy did you? ..good lord.......
Personally, I hope they keep this in. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting.
The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
Get some detection, problem solved. Still a fairly mediocre caster unit that is entirely too squishy.
you didnt just call infestor a mediocre caster unit that is squishy did you? ..good lord.......
They are armored, but have no armor. It's really weird. I wish they had an armor or two, but I wouldn't call them squishy.
I would leave it in because NP got the crap nerfed out of it when they changed it to a 12 second spell...If it was like a 30 second spell, then fine. (I'm talking about real time). If NP wasn't so weak anymore, I would prolly take it out.
On July 14 2010 17:24 v3chr0 wrote: I'd definitely say keep it in, Blizzard probably feels the same way, why would there be a burrowed neural parasite animation if they hadn't thought of this already?
Why would infestors not be able to np while burrowed unless through a glitch then? Your logic makes no sense.
Why would there be a burrowed neural parasite animation if this was a glitch? and obviously they can NP while burrowed, be it a glitch or not, thusly, your logic makes no sense.
because there was originally a NP burrow animation because they use to be able to NP while burrowed, it was removed, and thus proves that blizzard doesnt want this in the game, this will be fixed.
On July 15 2010 05:48 ultratorr wrote: What about in team games? Can you use this trick, while your ally is moving your infestors?
Confirmed, just did it. The problem is that the player with the spell queued up still has to sit around until you're in position, but you can choose any target along the way, and if you hold shift, you don't lose the cursor and can do multiple casts.
On July 15 2010 09:04 MangoTango wrote: Holy shit, this looks imba/ridiculous.
Note to self: Always get Ravens against Zergs.
How. . .? They can steal a unit in the middle of an army for 12 seconds assuming you don't scan. And, they have to cast the spell, THEN burrow with nothing in between.
On July 15 2010 07:57 Whole wrote: To those who are claiming this is gamebreaking:
You guys are acting like this glitch makes the Infestor an invincible and undetectable monster that can do a Fungal Growth for 10000 damage while spawning Ultralisk out of the sky. The fact is that a simple Missile Turret, Observer, Photon Cannon, or Overseer can counter this. You normally already have these in the first place. If you really think this is overpowered, then you must hate DTs and Nukes.
You're exaggerating. The reason this should be removed is that it allows a zerg player to NP units that are unable to cloak, and cloak them.
The way it works is downright confusing to the average player who doesn't read TL. If you look at the LOS mechanics, or the high ground mechanics, they work in an obvious way by design.
Sure, players WILL HAVE detection at that point but really, this behaves more like an exploit than a feature.
On July 15 2010 08:58 ktimekiller wrote: IMO make infestors non armored, and smaller. Bam, suddenly, more viable, without needing a bug
I agree - having a blimp-sized casting unit is kind of :X
Anyone that voted this should be in the game is just a Z looking for a slice of imbal pie. I play Z and I'm not dirty enough to think this is a fair exploit.
As a random player, I tried this in some team games. I found it hallarious however not useful. Fungal growth shows ur infestor anyway. Only practical with neural parasite however the tech up takes so long they almost always have detection by that time. If they dont chances are you would win anyway.
On July 15 2010 07:57 Whole wrote: To those who are claiming this is gamebreaking:
You guys are acting like this glitch makes the Infestor an invincible and undetectable monster that can do a Fungal Growth for 10000 damage while spawning Ultralisk out of the sky. The fact is that a simple Missile Turret, Observer, Photon Cannon, or Overseer can counter this. You normally already have these in the first place. If you really think this is overpowered, then you must hate DTs and Nukes.
You're exaggerating. The reason this should be removed is that it allows a zerg player to NP units that are unable to cloak, and cloak them.
The way it works is downright confusing to the average player who doesn't read TL. If you look at the LOS mechanics, or the high ground mechanics, they work in an obvious way by design.
Sure, players WILL HAVE detection at that point but really, this behaves more like an exploit than a feature.
NOTE: The infestor is revealed for 1 second while casting Fungal Growth when Burrowed. Only applies to Fungal Growth. This means that because you could always move Infestors while Burrowed, you could UnBurrow, Fungal, then Re-Burrow... it's basically equivalent to casting while Burrowed because of the 1 second reveal. Meaning that this glitch is basically useless for Fungal Growth.
That just leaves Neural Parasite as being the only useful aspect of this glitch
Since people seem to be concerned about how strong it is, let me remind everyone how much gas and time is required:
After Lair 150 100 80, Research Burrow 100 100 100, Build Infestation Pit 150 100 80, Build Infestors 100 150 50 each, and you want several Infestors for Neural Parasite, Research Neural Parasite 150 150 110, After each 50 Infestor finishes, wait another 64 for 50 more Energy, as Neural Parasite costs 100 Energy. Now you can finally use a spell that only lasts 12, after which they get their unit/s back and then what? And by then Terrans will most likely have Scan energy on at least one of their 2 Orbital Commands, even if they don't have Turrets, which they often will, especially for roaches/mutas.
For Protoss, well infestors are already a dangerous investment for zerg to get as Feedback from HTs counter them so well, which they can certainly have well in time for Neural Parasite (no research required, only 50 energy, similar tech requirements, HTs useful for Storm as well and even archons have their uses). As for Detection, well 98% of Protosses will have cannons @ natural well ahead of any Infestors, and before/when they move out, most players will have Observers, completely nullifying this trick.
Point being, its uses are very limited and nowhere near what some people have been making it out to be.
In other words, it doesn't cloak anything sides the infestor. . .
And
On July 15 2010 09:55 sk` wrote: Anyone that voted this should be in the game is just a Z looking for a slice of imbal pie. I play Z and I'm not dirty enough to think this is a fair exploit.
I'm Terran with an off race of Protoss and I think it's a great change, so stop thinking your opinion is the only one that exists.
On July 15 2010 00:40 psion wrote: More unit functionality = good. Obscure unit functionality = bad.
This is probably very underpowered, but it's also very obviously a bug and not a feature.
I agree. As I get at some point one of the "experienced" players, I still wouldn't like to have major advantage over new players. This whole mentality - "noobs deserve to be pwned, cuz their noobs" - I find to be very uninteresting and demotivating (for exp. players, not just for newbies). On the contrary, I'd prefer noobs to be presented with all options and tools in the game, nothing hidden and exclusively available only to "veterans".
That used to be quite discouraging about BW, as a new player, that up to quite recently there was a ton of info that is super useful and is not official or standard, and one couldn't really know it. Thanks a million to Team Liquid for making Liquipedia cover that gap, now it's different. But still, I think any such features, if they are part of the game, should be so official, that they should be part of the in-game help manuals etc. In other words, I don't mind if it behaves like it's a bug, as long as Blizzard actually informs all players properly about it and how to use it.
That's all, otherwise I love these exploits, for the rewarding performance challenges they provide. I still voted for it to stay, of course, those are just the conditions I'd like it to stay under.
Very interesting trick, and even as a non-Zerg player I think it should be kept in the game, tricks like these make games more exciting to watch and adds more badassery to the game.
As a Terran this scares the shit outa me lol. That said, it should be kept because it would be very funny and I doubt it would be imba...it would just penalize stupidity more then anything.
Personally, I hope they keep this in. It isn't imbalanced and it just makes the game more interesting.
The only thing they should consider to take out is "fazing", (Void Ray switching) because it might be a bit game breaking.
Wtf?
how is fazing more game-breaking than this? for fazing, you must have good precision to do that shit... for this::
you just make a few infestors, burrow and GO TO THE ENEMY! then Fungal Growth their mineral line, NP their Thors while in their base ALL FROM UNDERGROUND?!?!?!
"not imbalanced" my ass....
good thing it's beta, cuz this shit is bound to change
Actually you can't do that, since you need to unburrow every time you want to do something else. So either you can cast fungal or you can cast parasite or you can move. Every time you want to do something else you will have to unburrow and then burrow again. So basically in order to harass a mineral line you still have to unburrow a bit before casting, and if you want to do something else while waiting you need to unburrow again etc. And controlling any other unit also forces you to unburrow afterwards.
Actually you can do that by queuing up the burrow and then the move command to where you want to go. However, you are still unable to do anything else (such as macro) while the infestors travel to the enemy base, so it is pretty useless (EDIT: Now that I think about it, this could be pretty useful to move into casting range of an army). Anyways, I'm all for keeping this in.
This development is pretty huge, because it allowed infestors to walk under your army while NPing things instead of getting all bunched up with hydras. This bug might make hydra/infestor/ling work pretty well!
On July 15 2010 00:40 psion wrote: More unit functionality = good. Obscure unit functionality = bad.
This is probably very underpowered, but it's also very obviously a bug and not a feature.
I agree. As I get at some point one of the "experienced" players, I still wouldn't like to have major advantage over new players. This whole mentality - "noobs deserve to be pwned, cuz their noobs" - I find to be very uninteresting and demotivating (for exp. players, not just for newbies). On the contrary, I'd prefer noobs to be presented with all options and tools in the game, nothing hidden and exclusively available only to "veterans".
i dont like this argument. at what point do you say that a person needs to learn something on his own in a new game? even if BW didnt have any bugs or glitches, veterans would still have a huge advantage because they know BOs and have better micro/macro etc. should the game tell the players optimal build orders from the start? should it warn him of every strategy that the opposing player may be using? let them know when they reach perfect mineral saturation?
for me what made BW so special was how hard it was. if BW was easy no one would be playing it 12 years later. SC2 needs to be hard(er).
A game should keep me coming back because there are always new things in it to master, not by having stupid icons unlocked for every 20 wins.
If Sc II was all macro not counting "Run around with your rines,or kiting, and no tricks/bugs like this, would it be as fun? Think about it.
With stacked mutas, mutas were essentually useful. In Sc II do you see anyone acctualy going fast muta? no, thats rare.
Hold Lurker. That takes off from your macro time for your micro. It makes lurkers more hidden, and not owned by tanks and reavers if they arnt noticed.
Stacked Wraiths, same concept as stacked mutas, exept wraiths would be almost pure air.
This bug isn't harder to do than basic stacking mutas. This is: click, burrow, cast. Stacked mutas was: select mutas, select a larva/ovie/drone, click same spot, watch them stack.
EDIT: and if BW didnt have any glitches, would you even be here right now? most people were introduced into the game by watching Progamers. or something cool about the game.
On July 15 2010 05:48 ultratorr wrote: What about in team games? Can you use this trick, while your ally is moving your infestors?
Confirmed, just did it. The problem is that the player with the spell queued up still has to sit around until you're in position, but you can choose any target along the way, and if you hold shift, you don't lose the cursor and can do multiple casts.
This could be used especially when your ally loses his base. He can control your infestors since he has no base or units to manage. I can imagine this tactic turning games around if the enemy lacks detection.
On July 15 2010 05:48 ultratorr wrote: What about in team games? Can you use this trick, while your ally is moving your infestors?
Confirmed, just did it. The problem is that the player with the spell queued up still has to sit around until you're in position, but you can choose any target along the way, and if you hold shift, you don't lose the cursor and can do multiple casts.
This could be used especially when your ally loses his base. He can control your infestors since he has no base or units to manage. I can imagine this tactic turning games around if the enemy lacks detection.
Just like banshees, ghosts and dark templar then.
I really don't see what the fuss is about in this thread ( not aimed at you ultratorr, merely quoted to have some extra info in my post ). A cloaked banshee without detection or anti air defence will kill you outright, while an infestor would just take your unit for 12 seconds with a pretty clear line pointing at the next infestor grave.
Against zerg you almost dont need any detection anyway, and almost none of the units aside from the banelings can actually attack while cloaked.
I don't see it as overpowered, as most competant protoss' have an observer with their main army anyway, and terran underutilizes ravens.
If you guys think this is such a big issues, you've a) not read the patch 16 changes and b) have not played with infestors. 12 secs duration on NP, and thats a game breaker? Sorry, no way...
Fungal growth being so overpowered? With its huge range? 36 damage over time is a real killer, especially since the infestor dies either before using it, or right after that.
the only real useful thing - Infested Terrans.
In one of my last games I had a group of 3 Infestor with over 30kills each. Do you seriously think I used Neural Parasite for that?
PS. Blizz will patch it, surely. Dont mind tho. The real broken thing atm is the damage-dealing mechanics of Void rays...
At least half of the people here aren't using this correctly at all.
You don't have to burrow anywhere near the enemy. Just start out with a move command or something that won't be completed instantly. Queue burrow, move, all the spells you want after that. You can order the Infestor to do whatever you want while holding shift as long as it's still above ground, including actions after casting FG. The only rules are that queueing NP blocks further commands, and the Infestor can't be burrowed yet.
I've used this in several games to move an Infestor up to an army, cast 2 FGs, and retreat while remaining underground the entire time except for the tiny window of visibility while casting (which is only one second for two FGs because queueing lets you cast two spells at the exact same time).
One thing I love about the RTS genre is that in multiplayer games nearly everything within the game is justified for the win. In fps games tricks such as this will be destroyed and generally outcast by the community but in RTS games players do what they must to win. I believe that this is brought on by the intensely personal combat that is brought on by the extended nature of the 1v1 combat.
I love the thirst for the win that possesses the community it leads to player being the best they can be.
Personally I think that neural parasite needs work and leaving in tricks like this is one way to make the ability less restrictive.
This is obviously a bug in the game and is not what the developers intended for the unit. Bugs should be fixed. I am not sure why there is discussion on this matter. If Blizzard wants the Infestor to be able to cast more than just Infested Terran while burrowed then they will add proper ways to cast the other stuff while burrowed.
It feels like the reason people would want this to stay in the game is that they want something to replace the Lurker and this is the closest thing we've ever had. If that is your motivation then lobby Blizzard to allow NP to be cast while burrowed without abusing bugs like this. Given it's now short duration I doubt that would be overpowered at all.
Let it stay it isnt very abuseable in my humble opinion and takes a degree of micro management that I dont feel bad if they manage to pull off. just like stacked hold lurkers
I am sure that this game needs some micro tricks under its sleeve )
And Blizz really should add some little tricks everywhere to make the game more entertaining, how cool would it be when your thor is being NPed from underground and shoots 250mm cannon at his fellows? Thats an epic thing to watch! )))
sure, but..... i would trade this feature in for longer NP
one question though... everybody is saying NP lasts 12 seconds - where does this number come from? ... 'cause when i look at the MPQs, i see 30 intervals of 0.5 seconds
Blizzard is aware of this and sadly I think it's going the way of Void Ray "fazing". They seem to want SC2, at least for now, to stand on the strength of its intended functionality instead of engine bugs.
This trick is getting looked into and may be fixed. Blizzard stated they were unaware of the infestor trick.
The Void Ray trick was also referenced and blizzard stated they would be addressing this. Both the underground casting and the void ray fazing might be nerfed. But they did not state specifically that either would be fixed or left alone. Just that VR Fazing would be "addressed" and the infestor trick "looked into". While this might equate to a VR Nerf, its never a good idea to put words into developers mouths. Lets wait and see.
Guest-347: As I hope your development team is aware, certain "tricks" have been found recently by the community. These include Void Ray "Fazing" wherin a player can manually attack different targets in rapid succession to artificially increase damage output, and a series of commands that enables (limited) infestor underground casting of Fungal Growth and Nueral Parasite. Is the dev team aware of these issues and how are they going to be addressed before launch? DustinB: We are aware of the Void Ray fazing and we will be addressing that. I was not personally aware of underground casting of Infestor abilities. I'll go take a look.=)
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
On July 14 2010 17:15 Starcraft2Germany wrote: I think its good to remove this "tricks", because they are more bugs than tricks.
what made sc1 what it is today is the 'bugs' that were discovered and exploited
And that's why I quit playing it. Sorry, but it's a strategy game, not a cheat console. My controls say patrol, attack, move. But you know the arcane secret of patrol + right click, ctrl x + f4 so I have no chance. Really, if the only reason you beat your opponent is because you know secret combinations of button presses that make your units do stuff that isn't obvious from the interface then you've really shown what a gimicky pos the game is.
On July 14 2010 18:48 Sueco wrote: No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
Just shut up. You are even more sad, because you are calling stacking mutalisks and hold-lurkers in BW "abusing" glitches. Those are absolutely legit strategies and others have learned how to deal with it. Removing all glitches only makes the game boring.
Blizzard is actually trying to design the game this time around rather than let strategies emerge due to coding errors. Sure muta stacks and hold lurkers were fun and exciting, that doesn't mean they should keep the design philosophy of "game design by software glitch", something you'd realize if you had any brains.
Maybe burrowed casting is the spice-up Zerg needs. If that's case, Blizzard should include it next patch, but "keep it a glitch so i can feel moar special" is just dumb.
That's like saying bunny hopping in css should be removed because everyone can't do it. Or Russian walk in cs 1.6 or flick shots in cod2/cod4 or strafe jumping in quake etc... If everyone can do it, it becomes a stale game, no excitement nothing. I'd rather have to put in the time to do "amazing" things in a game, than have the game do them for me.
Bunny hopping has been removed in all valves latest games for this very reason including counter strike source or as you say CSS it is still in 1.6 though which is why the CS community is still so divided.
No sorry guys, you mistake a bug for a skill test.
Skill is for example doing a perfectly timed expansion while you saturate at the exact rate needed to keep you desired unit composition while you take down an enemy expansion with a ling harass while you micro your infestors to separate the enemy army with fungal growth and using NP on tanks from high ground where you had an overlord carry the Infestors since you correctly predicted enemy attack paths, this while you do a fake attack on another expansion to draw his army while your nydus worm goes up on the main. That ammount of simultaneus action and perfect strategic sense i respect, THAT is skill. Digging up glitches and asking Blizzard to keep them so you can use arcane bugs to feel like your "skilled" is just sad, I'm sorry.
Why has blizzard removed all unit usage bugs from SC2? Because skill is not looking up god-forgotten tricks on the TL forums and then practicing them so you can roll over people who don't research glitch usage to win. You are sad.
And that's why I quit playing it. Sorry, but it's a strategy game, not a cheat console. My controls say patrol, attack, move. But you know the arcane secret of patrol + right click, ctrl x + f4 so I have no chance. Really, if the only reason you beat your opponent is because you know secret combinations of button presses that make your units do stuff that isn't obvious from the interface then you've really shown what a gimicky pos the game is.
I don't think either of you have any clue what you're talking about :/. Nobody argued that Skill was going to teamliquid and looking up somewhat obscure commands or bugs. Just like nobody argued that skill in Streetfighter was looking up how to preform the comboes on the manual, and memorizing them.
If you're losing due to someone "using these bugs", you're probably being severely outmicroed as well. Find me a replay of someone with lower micro then you beating you do the abuse with one of these bugs, or one of the bugs like muta stacking in broodwar. Hey, you know about phasing now. Go try it in a ladder game. Wait, doing so while not neglecting macro tasks and map awareness requires enormous skill and concentration.
These bugs require skill to execute as well, far more skill then is found in traditional Starcraft 2 micromanagement, and far more then blizzard appears willing to include.
If you quit for this reason, then you quit because you were bad and unwilling to improve, and sought to blame the reason on the game instead of yourself. If people were beating you because of say, stacking mutalisks, it is not because they knew how to stack mutalisks and you did not. It is because they were skilled enough to execute a very micro heavy strategy while you could not.
Blizzard is actually trying to design the game this time around rather than let strategies emerge due to coding errors. Sure muta stacks and hold lurkers were fun and exciting, that doesn't mean they should keep the design philosophy of "game design by software glitch", something you'd realize if you had any brains.
Hey if blizzard proves capable or willing to design the game around preserving and improving micromanagement heavy tactics, I'm all for it. So far, they have not. Its an undebatable argument that SC2 is less micromanagement heavy then Starcraft 1.
Anyone if selecting 5 or so infestors and then do this and just holding shift as you select target will work? say for the NP it would be drasticly reduce the micro needed for it to be used.
On July 21 2010 11:21 AlBundy wrote: This is definitely less "game-breaking" than Void Ray fazing but nonetheless I feel that glitches and exploits do not belong in progaming.
What a weird statement. Progaming is almost the direct result of bugs and glitches creating a level of play that would never have been intentionally designed. Combo Moves in Figher games were originally a frame glitch for cristsakes.
On July 21 2010 10:07 Thenas wrote: Anyone if selecting 5 or so infestors and then do this and just holding shift as you select target will work? say for the NP it would be drasticly reduce the micro needed for it to be used.
yes, it does: r, shift+e and off you go.
however, i still believe the queue can cause too many mishaps: it's more of a serial thing than the "parallel" multi commands you have in mind there. (unless that was re-worked - i had troubles during the first weeks of beta and tried to avoid queuing ever since)
On July 21 2010 11:21 AlBundy wrote: This is definitely less "game-breaking" than Void Ray fazing but nonetheless I feel that glitches and exploits do not belong in progaming.
What a weird statement. Progaming is almost the direct result of bugs and glitches creating a level of play that would never have been intentionally designed. Combo Moves in Figher games were originally a frame glitch for cristsakes.
I see your point and I admit that I was somehow wrong, but I've always been annoyed by that sc1 glitch were you could pass through minerals using burrowed zerglings, and I thought that hopefully this kind of bug would not appear in Sc2, or at least, would not be allowed.
The coolest thing (against P) would be: Send in a sacrificial overseer, followed by an infestor. NP the observer while burrowed - removing detection. Follow in with burrowed roaches.. .. and suprise!
This would be both incredibly hard to pull off, and incredibly cool to see. Even when done perfectly, it still wouldn't be super powered or crushing - just a clever tactic.
On July 14 2010 15:49 Zozo wrote: So if we add the patrol spread, void ray target switching and this.... hmmm
What's patrol spread?
Edit: please
Its in a thread somewhere. You can use patrol when moving units so that they do not clump as easily and avoid splash. Example would be zealots at sieged tanks. if you just right click or 1a, then the zealots clump and take plenty of splash and don't kill the tanks. You use patrol spread and the zealots stay away from each other, reducing total damage and splash damage taken before they can engage.
Is there an official opinion on this yet? Is it cheating? I've done it in a few games and it seems ridiculously easy to do (although I don't use infestors enough).
I think it's pretty obvious to anyone looking that you're exploiting a bug, here. The question is what Blizzard is going to do about it, since they strangely didn't fix the Fazing bug with VR (although that was significantly less of an exploit than this is).
On August 06 2010 03:06 Craton wrote: I think it's pretty obvious to anyone looking that you're exploiting a bug, here. The question is what Blizzard is going to do about it, since they strangely didn't fix the Fazing bug with VR (although that was significantly less of an exploit than this is).
Much like fazing if this broke then game then I think we'd know about it by now. Personally I think it's fine as it has a high opportunity cost. You're either casting spells ahead of time hoping the situation doesn't change or you are doing nothing waiting to cast spells with the infestor. So hopefully this stays in the game along with fazing.
burrowed NP is really not very useful. I've done it before, and it pretty much always sucks considering that NP lasts only 12 seconds. Burrowed fungal is even worse
On August 06 2010 03:23 Xapti wrote: burrowed NP is really not very useful. I've done it before, and it pretty much always sucks considering that NP lasts only 12 seconds. Burrowed fungal is even worse
NP is basically garbage now that it lasts 15 seconds (yes 15 not 12, once again I apologize for giving the wrong info weeks ago), ive explained in detail in a section I added to the OP. and yes burrowed fungal is pretty pointless
i'll quote it here for the lazy people who will inevitably still whine anyway / not bother reading it
PLEASE NOTE:A lot of people are concerned about how strong this is, and if this needs to be fixed. However as it turns out, this is a pretty much useless trick in for use in any serious game. For Fungal Growth, well the infestor is revealed for 1 second while burrowed- casting Fungal. This means that since you could always be able to move Infestors while Burrowed, you could simply Unburrow, Fungal, then Re-Burrow... it's basically equivalent to casting while Burrowed because of the 1 second reveal. Only difference is that this way guarantees fungal going off (but only if they don't have detection), while if you try to unburrow and fungal then it may die before casting. And while you wait for infestors to move you cannot click/press anything else if you wanna cast something while Burrowed. In most every case you can just cast Fungal normally with just the same effectiveness as Burrowed casting, while being faster/easier to execute.
That just leaves Neural Parasite. Sad part is, Neural Parasite really blows now due to the stealth change that made it last only about 15 game seconds. And combined with the heavy time/gas/energy cost, along with how fragile/easy they are to kill (which if they did would make the entire investment backfire on you), and readily available Detectors nullifying it completely, it's really not even seriously worth getting in almost any situation. For evidence how awful it is, well if you've seen the + Show Spoiler [Razer KotB] +
idra vs TLO series Day6, in game 2 you can see how worthless Neural was on Battlecruisers with the 15 second duration VOD of game in question, seek to 13:40 http://blip.tv/file/3921213
At the start of the following game, they even talked about how bad it is
TLO: 12 sec NP is so awful. Idra: ya that kinda sucked
(note, he says 12 because I so incorrectly posted that so long ago when writing up the stealth changes. It lasts 15 in-game seconds, I verified this now. I'm very ashamed that I said the wrong number but nevertheless it's really damn short)
The 15 second change alone makes NP awful/a waste of resources, but let let me remind everyone anyways just how much gas and time is required for casting Neural Parasite while Burrowed:
After Lair 150 100 80, Research Burrow 100 100 100, Build Infestation Pit 150 100 80, Build Infestors 100 15050 each, and you want several Infestors for Neural Parasite, Research Neural Parasite 150 150 110, After each 50 Infestor finishes, wait another 64 for 50 more Energy, as Neural Parasite costs 100 Energy. Now you can finally use a spell that only lasts 12, after which they get their unit/s back and then what? You look like an idiot for going NP. Oh yeah, and all they need is Detection anyway, which terran can easily just Scan and Protosses are almost guaranteed to have observers by then anyway.
For Protoss, well infestors are already a dangerous investment for zerg to get as Feedback from HTs counter them so well, which they can certainly have well in time for Neural Parasite (no research required, only 50 energy, similar tech requirements, HTs useful for Storm as well and even archons have their uses). As for Detection, well 98% of Protosses will have cannons @ natural well ahead of any Infestors, and before/when they move out, most players will have Observers, completely nullifying this trick.
Point being, it's a cute, but mostly worthless trick, and I regret wasting my time on this guide.
really wish I had tried it more before wasting so much time on a guide on it
Sadly as of patch 1.1.1 this doesn't work anymore - when you quickly borrow then use the ability the crosshair changes, but when you try to click on an enemy unit you get an error message. (For some reason it still works in the infestation challenge)
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8919/infestor.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/a/a4/Minerals.gif)
150 ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/e/e1/Vespene.gif)
100 ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/0b/Buildtime_terran.gif)
80,
I hope they fix it and revert that 12 second change back
