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On May 21 2010 19:05 IdrA wrote:
good players speaking out isnt gonna change anything, theres a real problem with blizzards balance team, or their goals in balancing.
its clear they dont even watch high level games, much less listen to high level players or understand whats going on in those games. some of the justifications for the last few patches have been utterly ridiculous. twice theyve mentioned ultralisk's performance in zvz to justify changes. ultralisks have never, ever, been built in a competitive zvz.
i think the vast majority of their changes are based solely on statistics. would explain why theyre so slow to notice it when one race is overpowered early and the other late, as its an obvious problem but it doesnt really show up in win rates if it cancels out. also explains why their patches lag behind the actual balance issues. ya, top players figured out right away that terran was overpowered after patch 12, but it takes a while for that to trickle down through the ranks and affect the overall win rates.
Yeah, you are right - from our point of view only balance that matters is "competetive level" balance. However, even average noob deserves to have fun and balanced games so Blizz is really trying to please both pros and noobs.
We should not forget that there are players beside "hardcore gamers" and some of them may some day become hardcore gamers - but only if something will make them want to play SC2, if the game will be unplayable at lower levels there will be very few new players in the scene and scene will slowly die - very many people quit SC1 because 4/5 pool and zealot rushes were very hard to deal with for weak players
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if players are unable or unwilling to learn how to deal with things like that they arent gonna end up being competitive players at all. if you have to give them a crutch to keep them moving theyre just gonna keep going till they hit people who are legitly better and then give up anyway.
1v1's are not meant for people who are competitive but lack skill or work ethic. you're either playing for the fun of it and stick to ums/money maps/dont care if you win, or you're playing to win in which case its your responsibility to learn how to win, given an equal footing. an absolute equal footing, not an equal footing for people with 50 apm and below.
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If you look through the threads on these forums you can probably find someone complaining about anything..
Anyway, did you ever consider the complaints and the problems blizzard notices will tend to coincide?
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On May 21 2010 19:18 Dawme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote:
as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play.. So yeah, you have this build which works everytime against 95% of lower players but the top 5% of players have the skill to counter it and then to proceed to win the game and you're gonna tell the 95% of lower players : "it's balanced, learn to play." ? Trust me, it's not a good way to run a business... They have to find a way to make the game balanced for all levels without requiring copper players to "learn to play" to have fun. Because they won't. They will just leave the game.
oh please.. its not that hard to learn how to build stuff that shoots air against voidrays.. im sorry that according to u a vast majority of battle.net are brain-dead one-dimentional thinkers though..
but if the silvers have it their way i guess we'd be seeing games like supreme commander..where every race is a slight modification of each other instead of havng complete set of different attributes..
go ahead though, having a noob-friendly balanced game won't make silvers any better than they are... itll just make the game easier to a-move.. nobody wants that
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SC2 will be just like WoW in the patch aspect. It will have flavour of the week patches and their balance team is a huge giant nerf/buff bat unable to do anything that requires precision. But at least I can look forward to a new game each month after release.
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Off course nobody wants that, but nobody wants a game only balanced and fun at platinium level either. That's what good balacing also means : fun and balanced gameplay at all skills levels. But then again, the whole balancing patches thing is a huge failure until now..
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I think it's safe to assume that if Blizzard reads forums like these, and I'm sure they do, they are perfectly able to differentiate between a well thought-out argument about game balance/mechanics or whatever and some kid crying about his favorite unit getting nerfed. But it's not only silly to suggest they should ignore the less skilled players because it is them who pay for the production of the game. It is also silly because if the game was only balanced at the top level, but if you let two beginners or amateurs play each other, the beginner terran will always own the beginner zerg or protoss, the game balance would clearly be broken. For example, when the noob who gets the void ray always beats the noob who doesn't and there's no way to counter the void ray at that skill level, something about the void ray must be changed. People with similar skill levels should on average yield similar results with all three races, everything else is imbalance.
On a side note, I also don't know where tomorrow's pros are supposed to come from if no one gives a shit about whether the game works for beginners at all.
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On May 21 2010 19:27 Tef wrote:
But at least I can look forward to a new game each month after release.
Goodbye metagaming then?
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There are several Blizzard employees that are posting here, and even Dustin Browder has said in an interview that they read TL, so trying to come up with circumstantial evidence to prove they read these forums for feedback is kind of funny.
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It's actually in developers' interests to purposefully introduce overpowered/underpowered dynamics, particularly when they are trying to achieve the sort of progress that was made in, say, SC:BW; in a much shorter period of time.
I could be way off on this, but by way of an example, - by introducing Void Rays with a slightly longer range than they feel is balanced, they could encourage use of that unit and speed up the development and discovery of counters. If none are found, then a decision can be made. If some or many are found, they can also apply changes based on that.
This is probably stating the obvious, I know, but it just seems that a lot of people are not quite understanding what it means to take part in such early stages of development of a competitive game, let alone in the Beta Phase.
On the subject of competitive-level balancing: There simply is no argument to be had here. It's clearly the most logical, most effective and only way to balance a competitive game.
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I don't agree.
I am a bronzy silver noob and i want this game to be fun to play; so i'd like blizzard to listen to me when i get frustrated by something as far as i'm not the only one complaining. (not that personally have ever given any whinning feedback but you all get the point)
The aim for blizzard is to sell the game a lot, so they have to please the mass croud ( the so-called newbies screaming unfairnesses) They need to listen carefully to the new players and their dislikes in order to create a large and happy community that will potentially follow (and pay to watch) the proscene.
Moreover the progamers will eventually figure things out to try win any match up, and patches can always be made at any point in time if there is any real unbalance, any BO impossible to counter.
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you guys are clearly missing the point... in the scenario that voidrays won every game at a certain skill level.. those protosses would be promoted to a skill level where it'd only work 50% of the time until u reached a hire level where u hav to actually mix up your strategies and use more than one-strat wonders... balancing at the top level works b/c anything below will be promoted until they start losing...
meanwhile those silver players that lose to intial voidray players will still be winning half their games
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^That doesn't work because there are 3 matchups, not 1. The player will be consistently winning the imba matchup and, as rating increases, begin losing their other matchups, balancing out their rating but continuing to have a skewed win percentage in the imbalanced matchup. Not only that, it would skew the distribution of races.. lower the level of skill it takes to achieve higher ranks.. basically your theory is dumb.
I really can't imagine Blizz balancing based on complains they saw. No knowledgeable person gives a complaining noob a serious listen. It's much more likely they use statistics to balance.
Void Rays were way overpowered on certain maps, even for top level terrans.. I don't think it's a noob outcry thing.
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On May 21 2010 19:18 Dawme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote:
as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play.. So yeah, you have this build which works everytime against 95% of lower players but the top 5% of players have the skill to counter it and then to proceed to win the game and you're gonna tell the 95% of lower players : "it's balanced, learn to play." ? Trust me, it's not a good way to run a business... They have to find a way to make the game balanced for all levels without requiring copper players to "learn to play" to have fun. Because they won't. They will just leave the game.
Totally agree
People really need to stop with the ''Only 2000+ plat players get an opinion'. It's possible to balance at all levels, and have gameplay scale well.
The vast majority of players are not super skilled. If <100apm players consistently dominate other <100apm players with void rays over thousands of games then there's a problem with void rays.
If starcraft is going to make it big outside of Asia it needs to cater well to players all of skills. If it turns into an elitist circlejerk then people will go back to playing games they actually find fun. Blizzard clearly got the memo so it's time the players work it out too.
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u just want us to write our ideas down???
my supreme platinum level idea: buff roaches and remove dark obelisk (integrate dt with ht tech)
2100+ plat terran (who now sucks because he massed 2's as protoss lull)
edit: the 3 supply per 2 roach idea is very good imo and should allow zerg to mass/ adapt a bit faster
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On May 21 2010 19:33 EnderSC wrote:
I don't agree.
I am a bronzy silver noob and i want this game to be fun to play; so i'd like blizzard to listen to me when i get frustrated by something as far as i'm not the only one complaining. (not that personally have ever given any whinning feedback but you all get the point)
The aim for blizzard is to sell the game a lot, so they have to please the mass croud ( the so-called newbies screaming unfairnesses) They need to listen carefully to the new players and their dislikes in order to create a large and happy community that will potentially follow (and pay to watch) the proscene.
Moreover the progamers will eventually figure things out to try win any match up, and patches can always be made at any point in time if there is any real unbalance, any BO impossible to counter.
At low skill levels, just because there is a strategy you cannot beat, does not mean there is something wrong with the game that needs to be changed. It means there is something wrong with you, and your play style/build order. Learn to counter it and it will be ok.
This is exacly the welfare epics syndrome, seen in WoW. Fans whine that they need epics too, Blizz gives them epics.
We don't need welfare balance in this game. Nor do we need, useless gimmicky abilities/units.
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Sc2 and battle.net forums upon release will reek like an abattoir full of retarded children; they look up to blizzard screaming Nerf plz and he will wisper back.
no.
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On May 21 2010 19:33 EnderSC wrote:
I don't agree.
I am a bronzy silver noob and i want this game to be fun to play; so i'd like blizzard to listen to me when i get frustrated by something as far as i'm not the only one complaining. (not that personally have ever given any whinning feedback but you all get the point)
The aim for blizzard is to sell the game a lot, so they have to please the mass croud ( the so-called newbies screaming unfairnesses) They need to listen carefully to the new players and their dislikes in order to create a large and happy community that will potentially follow (and pay to watch) the proscene.
Moreover the progamers will eventually figure things out to try win any match up, and patches can always be made at any point in time if there is any real unbalance, any BO impossible to counter.
if you care about winning everything that is effective is frusterating. its frusterating as hell when protoss uses forcefield or makes collosus' or does a warp gate rush. on any level. thats not gonna change. silver players are in silver because they dont find a way to deal with it, and theyre gonna stay there cuz even if you fix everything they complain about theyre just gonna run into another wall.
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I don't like what you say about silver league players not having a say. The game is for everyone not for pros only and everybody has a right to their opinion.
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On May 21 2010 19:33 EnderSC wrote:
I don't agree.
I am a bronzy silver noob and i want this game to be fun to play; so i'd like blizzard to listen to me when i get frustrated by something as far as i'm not the only one complaining. (not that personally have ever given any whinning feedback but you all get the point)
The aim for blizzard is to sell the game a lot, so they have to please the mass croud ( the so-called newbies screaming unfairnesses) They need to listen carefully to the new players and their dislikes in order to create a large and happy community that will potentially follow (and pay to watch) the proscene.
Moreover the progamers will eventually figure things out to try win any match up, and patches can always be made at any point in time if there is any real unbalance, any BO impossible to counter.
There's a lot of ways to look at that though.
You say you want this game to be fun to play. Does that mean that it's not fun to play now? If it is fun, what's the problem? If not, then why not?
Is it not fun for you because you don't like to lose? Are you losing because you can't be bothered to learn, concoct, or execute the correct counters?
Is it not fun for you because you are abusing a broken (for the sake of argument) mechanic that makes winning less satisfying/fun?
Only one of the above questions is related to balance. It is also the least likely scenario.
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EPT
