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On May 21 2010 19:18 Dawme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote:
as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play.. So yeah, you have this build which works everytime against 95% of lower players but the top 5% of players have the skill to counter it and then to proceed to win the game and you're gonna tell the 95% of lower players : "it's balanced, learn to play." ? Trust me, it's not a good way to run a business... They have to find a way to make the game balanced for all levels without requiring copper players to "learn to play" to have fun. Because they won't. They will just leave the game.
Isn't that exactly how BW is aswell? Loads of random crappy builds work at the D level, but try em at B-A and you'll get demolished most likely. This is nothing new. No one's ever cried out that's imbalanced, except for the random "p imba" stuff. BW is NOT balanced at all levels. I think that business went pretty darn well, too.
And dont give me the crap they're different games. It's still the same thing.
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On May 21 2010 19:42 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:37 Aries37 wrote:On May 21 2010 19:18 Dawme wrote:On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote:
as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play.. So yeah, you have this build which works everytime against 95% of lower players but the top 5% of players have the skill to counter it and then to proceed to win the game and you're gonna tell the 95% of lower players : "it's balanced, learn to play." ? Trust me, it's not a good way to run a business... They have to find a way to make the game balanced for all levels without requiring copper players to "learn to play" to have fun. Because they won't. They will just leave the game. Totally agree People really need to stop with the ''Only 2000+ plat players get an opinion'. It's possible to balance at all levels, and have gameplay scale well. The vast majority of players are not super skilled. If <100apm players consistently dominate other <100apm players with void rays over thousands of games then there's a problem with void rays. If starcraft is going to make it big outside of Asia it needs to cater well to players all of skills. If it turns into an elitist circlejerk then people will go back to playing games they actually find fun. Blizzard clearly got the memo so it's time the players work it out too. like i said... if void rays won that often they'd be promoted to a high enough level where they'd lose.. after thousands of games they'd get there for sure.. whats the point of ladder then? why not just make Sims MMORPG in Space and have it appeal to 1 billion people instead of 300 million? if the game wants to be competetive... ie: not end up like EA Command and Conquer franchise which is a complete failure and wants to live up to SC1 name (which is what they want and why they took so effing long to push this shit out) then it will and should be balanced according to top-tier players.. its only a matter of time that they realize this.. if they dont... hello Command and Conquer 5.. the failure of SC2...
So you would have no problem with masses of mid-level players whose rank is solely based on the void ray and who have higher win ratios than equally skilled zerg and terran players just because of the void ray? Wouldn't that stink to you at all? Isn't the ranking supposed to reflect skill?
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On May 21 2010 19:45 jtype wrote:
If you think about balance for a second - who is in the best position to be abusing imbalances in the game? Is it not the highest level players? Wont they be the very best at making the most of abusive tactics and builds?
Who would pull off a better cheese build - a copper league player or a platinum league player? Who's going to get more wins with that build? Who is more likely to mess up and have it countered?
Who is the better player to take into consideration when balancing that issue?
You don't see the point. Highest level players won't even notice the low level imbalance because it will not be used. For example, if you are playing ZvP on inci zone or steppes of war in copper right now, I'm pretty sure the zerg will 6 pool like 80% of the time. And you will not ever notice this fact at plat level because it will simply not happen since 6 pool is so easy to counter for high lvl player that the zerg player won't ruin his economy to do it. Now, if 6pooling wins the game too much for copper level players then blizzard has a problem because it's absolutely not fun and frustrating for p/t players and they will leave because they are casual players who don't want to learn, they just want to have fun (yeah it's a videogame). So blizzard needs to find a way to make this specific strat manageable for copper players without impacting higher level play. That's it.
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On May 21 2010 18:43 okrane wrote:
More importantly: if you are a 1000 rating silver league player, rocking a whopping 45APM, please abstain yourself from your retarded "this is OP/UP" forum posts, and suggestions about the game. If this is all we provide to blizzard as feedback, then we shouldnt be surprised about the way the game is advancing. One thing is clear, if a game-designer is listening to fans, the game is going down-hill: look at WoW.
That is wrong. A lot of people here tend to forget that it's the aim of Blizzard (and a logical aim at that one) to make the game balanced at all skill levels.
While this is most certainly almost impossible, Blizzard needs feedback as much from low-level players as they need it from High-Level players.
I also do not think that the guys at Blizz are stupid enough to see a post where someone playing in Silver League says "OMG, Colossi to be destroyed by AA is totally unfair, REMOVE!" and they will head this direction.
But surely, if a lot of Silver League Players complain about a certain strategy/unit/whatever being WAY to OP in their skill level, that is something Blizz will want to do something about. And I know that competetive thinking players tend to forget the lower skill levels, since I myself have the problem, but you need to remember that overall playability has to be given first, otherwise a lot of new players won't like the game, and it will lead to less popularity and maybe less talent since there are less people playing.
I also think that a lot of people seeing the Patch-Notes and instantly writing OMG BAAAAAAD or OMG OP! don't realize that things need to be put to test before you can say anything.
SC2 has way too many dependencies as that you can decide after 5 mins of reading a patch note that it is good or bad. The guys doing the patches know full well that certain things might not work out the way they intended, so they will just patch again.
This instant whining or praising is always a little funny to me.
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Blizzard is clearly reading these forums as it seems since they are balancing the game on the opinion of your average casual player.
Give SC1 to current blizzard and the would nerf the shit out of everything with their current state of mind. Pretty sad to be honest 
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On May 21 2010 19:46 mOnion wrote:
im really digging the "im terrible but i deserve a vote" argument thats popping up because its HILARIOUSLY stupid.
you should balance the game from the top down. if you balance it at the stronger level, then that balance will trickle down. both bad players wont be able to do their respective strats/whatever.
as opposed to making it balanced competitively but ALSO noob friendly which is just too much to try and tackle, its asking too much and is nearly impossible I think. just silly to think about.
if you wanna be good then get good, otherwise dont expect to get the most out of the game with no effort
But the most terrible players are also the most sincere, while the best players are among the most biased.
Of course the high level balance should be a priority, but it's not by asking the pro zerg and pro terran what they think of the ZvT MU that you will find who is ahead in this MU.
You need neutral players and observers, and with a few exceptions these people can only be Blizzard employees.
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This thread was absolutely needed. The last patches have just turned the game downhill IMO. The ridiculous phoenix "move-shot", the nerf on void ray range, as well as Blizzard's undying desire to keep the current high ground mechanic is killing the need for tactics and micro.
So many of the "OP" units were not OP at all with proper micro/defence. More and more so, SC2 is becoming a game of bland units that counter other bland units with simple a+move commands. The "big blob vs big blob" accusation has become more and more true as the beta has progressed.
If Blizzard is serious about making SC2 into an e-sport, they need to make the game actually exciting. There are two big "WOW" factors that BW had and SC2 lacks, and would do well to incorporate:
1. SC2 is missing seemingly abusive/OP/game-winning skills and units like Psi Storm/stop-lurkers/Plaaaaguuu/DTs.
2. SC2 is missing the potential for insane micro/unit control like muta micro, m&m micro against lurkers, mine drags, stasis on the ramp, etc.
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On May 21 2010 19:51 Dawme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:45 jtype wrote:
If you think about balance for a second - who is in the best position to be abusing imbalances in the game? Is it not the highest level players? Wont they be the very best at making the most of abusive tactics and builds?
Who would pull off a better cheese build - a copper league player or a platinum league player? Who's going to get more wins with that build? Who is more likely to mess up and have it countered?
Who is the better player to take into consideration when balancing that issue? You don't see the point. Highest level players won't even notice the low level imbalance because it will not be used. For example, if you are playing ZvP on inci zone or steppes of war in copper right now, I'm pretty sure the zerg will 6 pool like 80% of the time. And you will not ever notice this fact at plat level because it will simply not happen since 6 pool is so easy to counter for high lvl player that the zerg player won't ruin his economy to do it. Now, if 6pooling wins the game too much for copper level players then blizzard has a problem because it's absolutely not fun and frustrating for p/t players and they will leave because they are casual players who don't want to learn, they just want to have fun (yeah it's a videogame). So blizzard needs to find a way to make this specific strat manageable for copper players without impacting higher level play. That's it.
Interestingly, 6Pool is one of the easiest cheeses to counter, considering the worker auto-surround mechanic now in SC2. Admittedly, many low-level players may not know that they can just a-move their workers and win, but that's not a balance issue, that's an awareness and experience issue.
"Low Level Balance Issues" AREN'T balance issues. They are skill/experience/knowledge issues.
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On May 21 2010 19:52 snpnx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 18:43 okrane wrote:
More importantly: if you are a 1000 rating silver league player, rocking a whopping 45APM, please abstain yourself from your retarded "this is OP/UP" forum posts, and suggestions about the game. If this is all we provide to blizzard as feedback, then we shouldnt be surprised about the way the game is advancing. One thing is clear, if a game-designer is listening to fans, the game is going down-hill: look at WoW.
That is wrong. A lot of people here tend to forget that it's the aim of Blizzard (and a logical aim at that one) to make the game balanced at all skill levels. While this is most certainly almost impossible, Blizzard needs feedback as much from low-level players as they need it from High-Level players. I also do not think that the guys at Blizz are stupid enough to see a post where someone playing in Silver League says "OMG, Colossi to be destroyed by AA is totally unfair, REMOVE!" and they will head this direction. But surely, if a lot of Silver League Players complain about a certain strategy/unit/whatever being WAY to OP in their skill level, that is something Blizz will want to do something about. And I know that competetive thinking players tend to forget the lower skill levels, since I myself have the problem, but you need to remember that overall playability has to be given first, otherwise a lot of new players won't like the game, and it will lead to less popularity and maybe less talent since there are less people playing. I also think that a lot of people seeing the Patch-Notes and instantly writing OMG BAAAAAAD or OMG OP! don't realize that things need to be put to test before you can say anything. SC2 has way too many dependencies as that you can decide after 5 mins of reading a patch note that it is good or bad. The guys doing the patches know full well that certain things might not work out the way they intended, so they will just patch again. This instant whining or praising is always a little funny to me.
Just stop talking. I don't want to be mean but if its balanced in Plat then its balanced in all other skill levels too. There is no 2 tier balance.
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On May 21 2010 19:49 Bane_ wrote:
Three cheers for elitism!
It's not elitism. Void rays were not impossible to deal with. Therefore, your average silver player could deal with it too - learn from the better and get better.
Some BOs will always be imbalanced on the low levels - that's not because the game / unit(s) is (are) imbalanced, just simply because some BOs are simply easier to execute than to defend against. And that's impossible to change.
What's next? Omg, P can produce units so fast, my silver level macro can't keep up! They better increase the cooldown on Warp Gate production 'cause P is clearly OP!
Sheesh.
Quoting jtype: "Low Level Balance Issues" AREN'T balance issues. They are skill/experience/knowledge issues."
Exactly. I know it's hard to force down people's throats (therefore Blizzard trying to avoid it somehow ever since the first alpha builds / interviews), but that's just how it is. You either try to make it happen, or will have a second rate e-sport game that's only an e-sport because of the marketing pushing it from behind - and will die out the second sponsors jump elsewhere. Maybe that's Blizzard's intention, I don't know. I sure hope not.
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On May 21 2010 19:42 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:37 Aries37 wrote:On May 21 2010 19:18 Dawme wrote:On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote:
as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play.. So yeah, you have this build which works everytime against 95% of lower players but the top 5% of players have the skill to counter it and then to proceed to win the game and you're gonna tell the 95% of lower players : "it's balanced, learn to play." ? Trust me, it's not a good way to run a business... They have to find a way to make the game balanced for all levels without requiring copper players to "learn to play" to have fun. Because they won't. They will just leave the game. Totally agree People really need to stop with the ''Only 2000+ plat players get an opinion'. It's possible to balance at all levels, and have gameplay scale well. The vast majority of players are not super skilled. If <100apm players consistently dominate other <100apm players with void rays over thousands of games then there's a problem with void rays. If starcraft is going to make it big outside of Asia it needs to cater well to players all of skills. If it turns into an elitist circlejerk then people will go back to playing games they actually find fun. Blizzard clearly got the memo so it's time the players work it out too. like i said... if void rays won that often they'd be promoted to a high enough level where they'd lose.. after thousands of games they'd get there for sure.. whats the point of ladder then? why not just make Sims MMORPG in Space and have it appeal to 1 billion people instead of 300 million? if the game wants to be competetive... ie: not end up like EA Command and Conquer franchise which is a complete failure and wants to live up to SC1 name (which is what they want and why they took so effing long to push this shit out) then it will and should be balanced according to top-tier players.. its only a matter of time that they realize this.. if they dont... hello Command and Conquer 5.. the failure of SC2...
Well my point is that it's possible to balance things at the top while keeping things balanced at the bottom. Don't you think it's a problem that there exists a unit which is not particularly hard to build and carries you easily into ranks which you don't deserve to be in? No unit should be so powerful that you need to 100apm to beat a player with 45apm using said unit.
And while i agree that the later C&C games were terribad it's hard to deny that they had great success in the west. Unlike the archaic SC1 which was pretty much confined to Asia + the diehards on teamliquid.
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simply put: you don't balance chess for those who can't tell the difference between white and black do you? you teach them how to tell the difference... you don't give white an extra 2 pawns just because they are losing at the copper league level..
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On May 21 2010 19:37 Aries37 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:18 Dawme wrote:On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote:
as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play.. So yeah, you have this build which works everytime against 95% of lower players but the top 5% of players have the skill to counter it and then to proceed to win the game and you're gonna tell the 95% of lower players : "it's balanced, learn to play." ? Trust me, it's not a good way to run a business... They have to find a way to make the game balanced for all levels without requiring copper players to "learn to play" to have fun. Because they won't. They will just leave the game. Totally agree People really need to stop with the ''Only 2000+ plat players get an opinion'. It's possible to balance at all levels, and have gameplay scale well. The vast majority of players are not super skilled. If <100apm players consistently dominate other <100apm players with void rays over thousands of games then there's a problem with void rays. If starcraft is going to make it big outside of Asia it needs to cater well to players all of skills. If it turns into an elitist circlejerk then people will go back to playing games they actually find fun. Blizzard clearly got the memo so it's time the players work it out too.
Its IMPOSSIBLE to balance at all levels. Most people who buy SC2 are going to be playing UMS maps and BGH (There is nothing wrong with this btw) with their friends. If you wanna play competitive 1v1 then guess what? PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE and never stop. You don't have fun in competitive 1v1s? Thats fine, its totally acceptable to play UMS and BGH all day. But just because you want to have a easier time winning in 1v1s does not mean that balance at the top levels should be disrupted or changed because newbies have problems winning against certain strategies.
What I am basically saying is that if you want to play competitively you better be prepared to lose and lose A LOT. Newbies are actually a lot luckier now that the beta is out because its so much easier for them to find people of their skill level. I started playing Brood War a year and a half ago and got ripped to shreds on iccup. I literally lost over a 100 games in a row to 3 gate zealot. Trust me when I say that you have no idea what really is a dominating strategy at lower levels of play until you play zerg against 3 gate zealot.
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On May 21 2010 19:33 EnderSC wrote:
I don't agree.
I am a bronzy silver noob and i want this game to be fun to play; so i'd like blizzard to listen to me when i get frustrated by something as far as i'm not the only one complaining. (not that personally have ever given any whinning feedback but you all get the point)
The aim for blizzard is to sell the game a lot, so they have to please the mass croud ( the so-called newbies screaming unfairnesses) They need to listen carefully to the new players and their dislikes in order to create a large and happy community that will potentially follow (and pay to watch) the proscene.
Moreover the progamers will eventually figure things out to try win any match up, and patches can always be made at any point in time if there is any real unbalance, any BO impossible to counter.
A lot of people have quoted my post so i would add some toughts.
I would like to say first that the game is very fun to play atm for me, and i don't get frustrated about anything in particular other than my lack of microskills when i lose.
My post was about what Blizzard strategy should (imho) be. If i was a designer i will gather all the information and see what is the most frustrating for the average player in order to fix that.
Example: The Voidray.
It's a pain in the ass for every newby. The protoss gets promotions until they reach the league that has enough skills to counter voidray but the newby stays in the low league getting voidrays in the face. He gets frustrated and lounches counterstrike to calm down...
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On May 21 2010 19:54 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:46 mOnion wrote:
im really digging the "im terrible but i deserve a vote" argument thats popping up because its HILARIOUSLY stupid.
you should balance the game from the top down. if you balance it at the stronger level, then that balance will trickle down. both bad players wont be able to do their respective strats/whatever.
as opposed to making it balanced competitively but ALSO noob friendly which is just too much to try and tackle, its asking too much and is nearly impossible I think. just silly to think about.
if you wanna be good then get good, otherwise dont expect to get the most out of the game with no effort But the most terrible players are also the most sincere, while the best players are among the most biased. Of course the high level balance should be a priority, but it's not by asking the pro zerg and pro terran what they think of the ZvT MU that you will find who is ahead in this MU. You need neutral players and observers, and with a few exceptions these people can only be Blizzard employees.
uh what? the most terrible players are the ones posting the "omg imba qq halp" threads that have been closed over and over
while the best players have been posting the well thought out and hyper discussed threads with actual content.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 21 2010 19:08 Piy wrote:
Why they actually gave terran a buff and didn't give zerg a counter to mech perplexes me....
People need to realize that patches take a LONG time to be put together, tested, approved, localized etc.
2 weeks ago everyone thought void rays were fucking bullshit and terran couldn't win... so Blizzard nerfs them.
Of course it turns out they weren't quite as unbeatable as previously thought, but at the time the patch was put together, they couldn't know that.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 21 2010 19:49 wolfy4033 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:18 Dawme wrote:On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote:
as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play.. So yeah, you have this build which works everytime against 95% of lower players but the top 5% of players have the skill to counter it and then to proceed to win the game and you're gonna tell the 95% of lower players : "it's balanced, learn to play." ? Trust me, it's not a good way to run a business... They have to find a way to make the game balanced for all levels without requiring copper players to "learn to play" to have fun. Because they won't. They will just leave the game. Isn't that exactly how BW is aswell? Loads of random crappy builds work at the D level, but try em at B-A and you'll get demolished most likely. This is nothing new. No one's ever cried out that's imbalanced, except for the random "p imba" stuff. BW is NOT balanced at all levels. I think that business went pretty darn well, too. And dont give me the crap they're different games. It's still the same thing.
There's also the fact that in BW at lower levels of play, Protoss is significantly easier to have success with due to the fact that the mechanical demand of playing Protoss at, say, a D+ level is less than that of playing Terran at a D+ level.
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On May 21 2010 19:59 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:08 Piy wrote:
Why they actually gave terran a buff and didn't give zerg a counter to mech perplexes me.... People need to realize that patches take a LONG time to be put together, tested, approved, localized etc. 2 weeks ago everyone thought void rays were fucking bullshit and terran couldn't win... so Blizzard nerfs them. Of course it turns out they weren't quite as unbeatable as previously thought, but at the time the patch was put together, they couldn't know that.
which is the reason why i support top-down balancing rather than balancing based on the cries of 10 million silver players who didn't bother to put in the effort (watch replays or experiment) to learn how to beat it...
sorry silver-terrans but if u want to build marauder every game u are going to lose to things that beat it...
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On May 21 2010 19:58 EnderSC wrote:
My post was about what Blizzard strategy should (imho) be. If i was a designer i will gather all the information and see what is the most frustrating for the average player in order to fix that.
Uhmmm why? Blizzard is doing something that almost no one else has done before and make a competitive esport game. Appealing to the average player would be a wrong way to achieve there goal.
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On May 21 2010 19:59 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:08 Piy wrote:
Why they actually gave terran a buff and didn't give zerg a counter to mech perplexes me.... People need to realize that patches take a LONG time to be put together, tested, approved, localized etc. 2 weeks ago everyone thought void rays were fucking bullshit and terran couldn't win... so Blizzard nerfs them. Of course it turns out they weren't quite as unbeatable as previously thought, but at the time the patch was put together, they couldn't know that.
Maybe we can agree on that the way Blizzard is doing this ain't really optimal? I really felt that they didn't give enough time to play around with patches in order to figure out optimal builds / counters to the changed / buffed / "imba" things.
For example: Despite being a 2k+ plat player after every database wipe so far, I still suck at using VRs. Yet, after the change (and after experimenting using them vs T) I auto-won the majority of my games effortlessly. I thought that was dumb. Lately, especially in Patch 12 I've met quite a lot of people who dealt with it cleanly, so VRs became about what you do after them, instead of just "LOLIMMACHARGED MA LAZORZ, BETTER ALT Q Q NOW". I really think that was an interesting development of a simple BO -> counter -> BO follow-up battle, and now it gets butchered.
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