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So the new patch changes have arrived and we can all see that they mirror exactly a good majority of suggestions found here on TL forums. I believe these forums, as the official place for Starcraft 2 professional play represent the best place for Blizzard's feedback.
The moderators are doing a good job in keeping the forums not littered with the crap we see on blizz forums and the trolling to a minimum. So, its clear: Blizzard is using these forums to get feedback for their game.
If we look at the changes done in patch 13 we can see all of them addressing concerns stated over and over again on these forums.
Ultralisks get owned by FF: Now massive units destroy FF
Zerg Has no Anti-Armored Unit: Ultras are anti-armored
Infested Terrans are bad: Infestor has a new spell
Omg nerf Void-Rays: Void Rays are now nerfed
Omg Terran don't win tournaments: Here, cheaper upgrades
Ok, so this is all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, we notice that while all the issues above were real concerns, the solutions Blizz took and implemented arent really the most optimal. Just to mention a few:
* The main issue with Ultras was not FF or their damage but their size and survivability against anti-armored units - Completely overlooked.
* Even though Void-Ray against terran is a OP strategy in Silver League, doesnt mean the overall range nerf was necessary.
* Even though infestor's Infested Terrans was a bad spell, replacing it with Frenzy, a spell that is a single unit buff is again pretty questionable. As is the newest version of Corruption. (This isnt W3, we dont have super strong units which we need to buff. Stacraft is more about masses of units, so give us mass-spells please)
So the conclusion I am drawing is that, even if Blizzard is listening to what we say, the most vocal majority giving back feedback has pretty much no clue about how to give feedback or about the biggest concerns about the game.
This is it. The game is going to be released in a couple months and if we, as a community are unable to identify the major issues with the game and provide correct feedback, the game's dynamics are going to be second grade, at best. Blizzard has a lot of pressure on them. SC1 was sucessful because they were not listening to so many biased feedback and balanced the game inside the vision of their competent designers. Sc2 has a lot of baggage, and the pressure to provide something as epic is weighing down on their shoulders.
This is a call to all pro players out there. It is you who should be giving out the most feedback, its your voice that needs to be heard. I am talking about the 2000+ platinum players who have a good macro/micro and understanding of the game. Your opinions about what should and should not be changed should be heard on these forums, not the ideas of all the scrubs who have no clue.
More importantly: if you are a 1000 rating silver league player, rocking a whopping 45APM, please abstain yourself from your retarded "this is OP/UP" forum posts, and suggestions about the game. If this is all we provide to blizzard as feedback, then we shouldnt be surprised about the way the game is advancing. One thing is clear, if a game-designer is listening to fans, the game is going down-hill: look at WoW.
Note: I am only a 1300 plat player and I admit to be clueless about what needs and doesnt need to be changed in the game. I just have the feeling that the game, and especially Zerg is heading in a bad way.
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I'm a 1600 Plat Player
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not in your post. I'm going to bite anyway.
Terran are horrendously overpowered and need a major nerf instead of 'even more buffs'. They win plenty of tournaments, infact I can only think of 1 tournament Terran hasn't won since patch 12 was released.
Blizzard are not listening to the top players regarding balance and they seem to be listening to the majority of players(noobs) who are screaming. The voidray change is a perfect example of this. Voidray is/was a perfectly resonable unit. The counter for terran was relatively simple and easy to pull off. Noobs whined, not its nerfed.
The real issues that Blizzard has to address in this game are.
1. Terran mech is too strong against Zerg
2. Terran m&m&m+g is too strong against protoss
There are other issues but those two are like the elephants in the room at the moment and until they are addressed then I don't see alot of competitions in SC2 that involve Protoss and Zerg players having a chance to win them.
Edit:
On May 21 2010 18:43 okrane wrote:
This is a call to all pro players out there. It is you who should be giving out the most feedback, its your voice that needs to be heard. I am talking about the 2000+ platinum players who have a good macro/micro and understanding of the game. Your opinions about what should and should not be changed should be heard on these forums, not the ideas of all the scrubs who have no clue.
Can't really agree more with this statement. If we really want changes we need people like TLO, Dimaga, Nazgul, Idra etc. to say what needs to be done. At the moment noobs are picking and choosing what changes suit them because no one who is really good is giving any feedback or making any posts at all. MorroW is the only one I know of who has came out and said "Terran needs a Nerf, thor is too strong" all of the other pros have stayed quiet while SC2 gets raped.
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On May 21 2010 18:50 Necrosjef wrote:I'm a 1600 Plat Player Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not in your post. I'm going to bite anyway. Terran are horrendously overpowered and need a major nerf instead of 'even more buffs'. They win plenty of tournaments, infact I can only think of 1 tournament Terran hasn't won since patch 12 was released. Blizzard are not listening to the top players regarding balance and they seem to be listening to the majority of players(noobs) who are screaming. The voidray change is a perfect example of this. Voidray is/was a perfectly resonable unit. The counter for terran was relatively simple and easy to pull off. Noobs whined, not its nerfed. The real issues that Blizzard has to address in this game are. 1. Terran mech is too strong against Zerg 2. Terran m&m&m+g is too strong against protoss There are other issues but those two are like the elephants in the room at the moment and until they are addressed then I don't see alot of competitions in SC2 that involve Protoss and Zerg players having a chance to win them. Edit: Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 18:43 okrane wrote:
This is a call to all pro players out there. It is you who should be giving out the most feedback, its your voice that needs to be heard. I am talking about the 2000+ platinum players who have a good macro/micro and understanding of the game. Your opinions about what should and should not be changed should be heard on these forums, not the ideas of all the scrubs who have no clue.
Can't really agree more with this statement. If we really want changes we need people like TLO, Dimaga, Nazgul, Idra etc. to say what needs to be done. At the moment noobs are picking and choosing what changes suit them because no one who is really good is giving any feedback or making any posts at all. MorroW is the only one I know of who has came out and said "Terran needs a Nerf, thor is too strong" all of the other pros have stayed quiet while SC2 gets raped.
How Blizzard explained the buffs to infantry research cost completely confused me. I really have no clue why Terran infantry needs to be stronger.
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Well, I don't really know what you're getting at. I think there are employees at Blizzard that are doing nothing but watching the SC2 competitive play very closely. They've even linked VODs of TLO on on the official SC2 Twitter account. I don't see why you think Blizzard only needs feedback from a certain group of players, instead of all of them. I think you are saying that feedback from lower skilled players and confusion are mutual inclusive. People posting in the strategy forums should adhere to SC2 Beta Strategy Forum Guidelines. As long as they do that, the input seems worthwhile to me.
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there's been people of all skill levels whining about their pet problem in sc2 since this thing started. frankly i don't think anyone here has any idea how to design a game and if blizzard listens to any of us, this game is screwed.
think about it. people bitched and moaned about 'roach fests', now that the roach got nerfed people are whining about pretty much every way in which it got nerfed and are basically asking for it to be like it was when the beta first launched. every single change blizzard makes is the worst thing to ever happen, and that last 'worst thing' they did? well they had it right then, they should go back to that.
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On May 21 2010 18:59 baeracaed wrote:
I think you are saying that feedback from lower skilled players and confusion are mutual inclusive.
I think what he is saying is that feedback from lower skilled players is less than worthless.
I agree with him.
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On May 21 2010 19:02 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 18:59 baeracaed wrote:
I think you are saying that feedback from lower skilled players and confusion are mutual inclusive. I think what he is saying is that feedback from lower skilled players is less than worthless. I agree with him.
yeah wouldn't want the game to be fun for those new, lower skilled players. they only give blizzard most of its money so they can keep making games.
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I think there is a problem here.
I am not saying your wrong and that some of these nerfs are wrong or what ever.
I dont know what should be done or what should not be done, and I will never claim to.
But the power of the good gamers is not to know what is balanced or not, their power is to see what is good and abuse it. That is what makes them good players.
They see the system and try to take advantage of it as much as they can. So I dont know if they are the right people to go around. Asking, sure maybe a nerf hits their beloved build but they will either make a new powerful build or change their build to match.
I really think it is to early to call anything overpowered like Necrosjef does, cos there is still so much innovation that can be done.
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good players speaking out isnt gonna change anything, theres a real problem with blizzards balance team, or their goals in balancing.
its clear they dont even watch high level games, much less listen to high level players or understand whats going on in those games. some of the justifications for the last few patches have been utterly ridiculous. twice theyve mentioned ultralisk's performance in zvz to justify changes. ultralisks have never, ever, been built in a competitive zvz.
i think the vast majority of their changes are based solely on statistics. would explain why theyre so slow to notice it when one race is overpowered early and the other late, as its an obvious problem but it doesnt really show up in win rates if it cancels out. also explains why their patches lag behind the actual balance issues. ya, top players figured out right away that terran was overpowered after patch 12, but it takes a while for that to trickle down through the ranks and affect the overall win rates.
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On May 21 2010 19:02 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 18:59 baeracaed wrote:
I think you are saying that feedback from lower skilled players and confusion are mutual inclusive. I think what he is saying is that feedback from lower skilled players is less than worthless. I agree with him.
Feedback might be worthless but considering also winrates in copper/bronze is definitely not worthless. Blizzard has to balance the game so that it's playable and fun for players of all skill levels and low skill players (the HUGE majority) will leave the game if they are totally crushed in their bronze matchups even if the game is balanced at plat level...
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unofficial patch 28 notes:
o Removed Kryptonite League and added Unobtainum League above Adamantium League
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I didn't really care about the cost of the stim pack upgrade + shield upgrades for marines, but reducing the cost... I don't really see why they would need to..
Also, I am 2040 platinum terran player, but I really think void rays need to be nerfed (I still need to play on patch 13 to see how the change affects the gameplay). If I were at 1600 platinum and complaining about void rays, then maybe I should learn some build orders, but I've tried a lot, and although gretorp's ghost build works vs void rays, terran users shouldn't be forced to only use one build for the matchup...the 1rack/1fact/1starport into vikings is like 10~15 seconds too slow.
I'm interested in the changes in patch 13. I still think something should be changed about phoenixes. Perhaps make them research the gravitation thing, but have higher attack damage to air units (so it's more of a anti air unit)
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Why they actually gave terran a buff and didn't give zerg a counter to mech perplexes me....
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On May 11 2010 01:37 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 23:15 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
this threadpage is so disgusting. never thought sc2 would make TL so much worse in such a short time. dont even wanna think about what will happen after release...
balance discussion seems to bring the worst out in people no matter what. i mean we are in beta. we are lightyears away from having a balanced game. and still people sit on their high horse and flame evryone who even thinks about doubting the balance of their race. i expect that from bnet forums but on TL i thought this would never be that bad.
watched the vods yesterday . as many stated finals were very disappointing in many ways but the rest was great :> Yes this is beta, let's just ignore talking about balance because everything will somehow magically sort itself out lightyears into the future. This is what beta's are for. Discussing balance. This is how you proceed into that future you're talking about. Only one being flamed in this thread is the idiot claiming you can 1base mutaling vs toss as some sort of standard strategy. Other than that there's somewhat of a consensus about there being a "problem". Quite frankly, there are too many lazy morons sitting on their asses this beta using the "future" argument. During the wc3 beta you had top players actually sit and think about the game and give lengthy constructive feedback. This beta top players for some reason decided Blizzard are good enough to sort everything out by themselves while they sit on their asses and play without providing any feedback whatsoever. Only top players I've seen make an effort are basically the Liquid' guys in their front page editorials. Other than that no one seems to care enough to bother. Of course the game will stay crappy.
I agree. The problem with ultras isn't actually that they're bad. Hell they already rape armored units, no need for +dmg vs armored.
The problem is actually getting to a point where it's safe to transition into ultras.
Bottom line: Building ultras is not safe, ever. There's an underlying problem Blizzard isn't getting. Everything can't be fixed by merely buffing or nerfing a unit.
I'm gonna work on a macro mechanics thread as soon as my exams are over. But tbh, I don't actually think Blizzard will listen. Their philosophy seems to be that their game's foundaments are strong, and all it needs are some tweaks to unit stats.
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On May 21 2010 19:08 stalife wrote:
I didn't really care about the cost of the stim pack upgrade + shield upgrades for marines, but reducing the cost... I don't really see why they would need to..
Also, I am 2040 platinum terran player, but I really think void rays need to be nerfed (I still need to play on patch 13 to see how the change affects the gameplay). If I were at 1600 platinum and complaining about void rays, then maybe I should learn some build orders, but I've tried a lot, and although gretorp's ghost build works vs void rays, terran users shouldn't be forced to only use one build for the matchup...the 1rack/1fact/1starport into vikings is like 10~15 seconds too slow.
I'm interested in the changes in patch 13. I still think something should be changed about phoenixes. Perhaps make them research the gravitation thing, but have higher attack damage to air units (so it's more of a anti air unit)
It's really not, the 1/1/1 will always work unless you're doing it wrong, plus terran can open thor as another alternative.
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A bigger concern would be that blizzard agrees with the opinions the lesser players give on balance.
If the balance team can't differentiate what's good from bad, there is little hope for SC2.
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as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play..
i also agree that this isnt wc3... as a 6+ year wc3 veteran i was disappointed to see faerie fire (corruptor's new spell) and bloodlust (frenzy) implemented... these were clearly wc3 style spells and should remain in that relm.. the only single-target spells that really existed in sc1 were lockdown and yamato, which were understandable.. however... wtf is frenzy? can u really imagine that a zerg unit would cast a spell on another zerg unit to make it blood-lusted in real starcraft lore? that's ridiculous... also. infested terrans shouldn't rise from the ground (skeletons in wc3) or drop from the sky (skeletons from wc3).. the only way infested terrans should exist is if they came out of an infested cc or barracks... maybe implement infested zealots .. that'd make it cool too... or the ability to infest actual units instead of throwing these ridiculous egg things..
wc3 mechanics were a nice bring-over (hotkeys mbs automine etc) but wc3 spells are a no-no in the sc2 universe... i hope someone from blizz comes across my post.. b/c this is important... serously.. blood-lusted ultralisks is the last thing we need...
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On May 21 2010 19:09 Piy wrote:
It's really not, the 1/1/1 will always work unless you're doing it wrong, plus terran can open thor as another alternative.
Because Thor is obviously so much faster than Viking, right.
Not even to mention that Thor is pretty bad against Void Rays.
Zerg still can't do shit against mech Terran, Terran does still get buffed despite being about the best race in the game, we get cool WoW skills which are only useful for Ultralisks and don't even make them run fucking faster which would be what's actually needed and Ultras get pointless buffs.
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I'm sure some of their employees frequent many Starcraft related websites and forums. But I would say that if you really want to get noticed post on the Blizzard beta forums. They will definitely read those often. They also do their own testing as well and they do play their game so I'm sure they arrive at many of the same conclusions as the people who post here regularly.
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On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote:
as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play..
So yeah, you have this build which works everytime against 95% of lower players but the top 5% of players have the skill to counter it and then to proceed to win the game and you're gonna tell the 95% of lower players : "it's balanced, learn to play." ? Trust me, it's not a good way to run a business...
They have to find a way to make the game balanced for all levels without requiring copper players to "learn to play" to have fun. Because they won't. They will just leave the game.
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EPT
