EPT*When I say balance I am talking about an even winrate.
Blizzard is clearly reading these forums! - Page 9
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ThunderGod
New Zealand897 Posts
*When I say balance I am talking about an even winrate. | ||
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Looonski
United States15 Posts
...but when it comes to complaining about Blizzards choice of game balance every theory crafter and his mother knows that his changes will make the game perfect and that Blizzard is PANDERING TO TEH NOOBZ! with each new patch. If you really feel that stongly about this game then don't complain on this forum like some spoiled child, go make a constructive post on the Blizzard forums and let them know. Maybe you'll give them an idea or two... Also, remember that for Blizzard SC2 isn't just their favorite video game, or hobby, its their job. They have a lot invested in SC2 as a competitive E-Sport, and you can bet your ass they want this game to be as balanced as possible, while appealing to the widest game audience as possible, while still being as competitive as possible. And remember that this is still Beta, so just chill and have no doubts that SC2 will be an awesome game! | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote: as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play.. i also agree that this isnt wc3... as a 6+ year wc3 veteran i was disappointed to see faerie fire (corruptor's new spell) and bloodlust (frenzy) implemented... these were clearly wc3 style spells and should remain in that relm.. the only single-target spells that really existed in sc1 were lockdown and yamato, which were understandable.. however... wtf is frenzy? can u really imagine that a zerg unit would cast a spell on another zerg unit to make it blood-lusted in real starcraft lore? that's ridiculous... also. infested terrans shouldn't rise from the ground (skeletons in wc3) or drop from the sky (skeletons from wc3).. the only way infested terrans should exist is if they came out of an infested cc or barracks... maybe implement infested zealots .. that'd make it cool too... or the ability to infest actual units instead of throwing these ridiculous egg things.. wc3 mechanics were a nice bring-over (hotkeys mbs automine etc) but wc3 spells are a no-no in the sc2 universe... i hope someone from blizz comes across my post.. b/c this is important... serously.. blood-lusted ultralisks is the last thing we need... ..................... and parasite and defense matrix and hallucination and feedback and optical flare and mind control the relative efficacy of these spells is not under investigation, though. merely pointing out that brood war had tons of single target spells. | ||
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shin ken
Germany612 Posts
70% of all players will play in the new big bronce leagues so Blizzard should definitly make shure that Starcraft 2 will offer fun and balanced 50 APM games - everything above is just the cherry on the cake. That doesn't mean they should actually listen to noobs. They should listen to anybody. Every single player ist biased - even random players. | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=122295¤tpage=9#173 dont know if it will work like i said in my post. | ||
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
On May 21 2010 19:23 IdrA wrote: if players are unable or unwilling to learn how to deal with things like that they arent gonna end up being competitive players at all. if you have to give them a crutch to keep them moving theyre just gonna keep going till they hit people who are legitly better and then give up anyway. 1v1's are not meant for people who are competitive but lack skill or work ethic. you're either playing for the fun of it and stick to ums/money maps/dont care if you win, or you're playing to win in which case its your responsibility to learn how to win, given an equal footing. an absolute equal footing, not an equal footing for people with 50 apm and below. Have to agree here. This whole "please everybody" business is stupid in theory, let alone in practice. Blizzard is in the business of making a competitive "esport" RTS. There's no room for making the game easy for noobs or anybody else. They've got the wrong balance team working for them if easy to learn - hard to master is what they hope to achieve this round. I do think there are some red flags in the way Blizzard is handling this beta. But then again, there have been red flags from Blizzard ever since they release burning crusade. These situation reports are a joke. Think about it: do you want a summary from blizzard about the changes they have already made or would you prefer an open dialogue about what they need to consider next? While the game is great, I have to admit that this has been the worst beta I've ever been in. At least the game is stable/doesn't crash. But the dev-community interaction is 0/10. and their balance team is really O.o | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
It's easy to say something like "50% winrate at all skill levels, we're all set!" But then if the game is flipping coins, who cares? The game isn't fun! Some of you are also saying that everything will be balanced as long as it's balanced for the pros. This isn't true. A lot of people recognized in SC:BW that Protoss had a shallower learning curve than Terrans, you know, 1a2a3a4a and all that. That said, I'm not sure I agree with balancing everything for people at all skill levels. By balancing it for all skill levels you're limiting what the pros can do at the highest skill levels. Can you imagine how Terran play would change in BW if they made Terran "easier"? Frozen also has a point about patches in the pipeline. If that is indeed the case I think the issue is more about patches coming too frequently than anything else. Finally, what the heck. Zerg spells are all over the place now, I thought they were completely fine except for infested Terran. Now I have beefs with infested terran, frenzy, corrupter corruption, and the new overseer corruption. Seriously, why is infested terran still in the game? Couldn't they have come up with a better solution to the ultralisk problem than adding a stupid spammable single target buff ability? Heck, why not make the stupid thing autocast and then we can just admit right now that we're playing some kind of Starcraft/Warcraft hybrid. Why does the infester even need a third spell? What concerns me most with the patch is not that the game will not be balanced. It's just that I wonder if melee games will be "Starcrafty" enough for me. I don't like frenzy, and harassing overseers with those two abilities is just like what the crap is going on with this game. | ||
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
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BladeRunner
United States407 Posts
On May 21 2010 19:05 IdrA wrote: good players speaking out isnt gonna change anything, theres a real problem with blizzards balance team, or their goals in balancing. its clear they dont even watch high level games, much less listen to high level players or understand whats going on in those games. some of the justifications for the last few patches have been utterly ridiculous. twice theyve mentioned ultralisk's performance in zvz to justify changes. ultralisks have never, ever, been built in a competitive zvz. ... Yearrgg... How many times does it need to be posted that Blizzard has their own internal system that they have teams of people playing all kinds of strategies on that we don't know about? Of course there's no ultralisk in zvz on the beta servers because we were still on a patch where they were riddled with issues. Internally, they'd be doing everything they could to tweak them and probably ordering their employees to use them in all matchups, so YES there were ultralisks in plenty of zvz so they could notice those issues and correct them BEFORE they were live to the public. Even Day9, a player I really respect made a similar comment about this (np nerf against ultra in zvz), why are people so naive to Blizzard's development process? | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On May 22 2010 00:29 BladeRunner wrote: Yearrgg... How many times does it need to be posted that Blizzard has their own internal system that they have teams of people playing all kinds of strategies on that we don't know about? Of course there's no ultralisk in zvz on the beta servers because we were still on a patch where they were riddled with issues. Internally, they'd be doing everything they could to tweak them and probably ordering their employees to use them in all matchups, so YES there were ultralisks in plenty of zvz so they could notice those issues and correct them BEFORE they were live to the public. Even Day9, a player I really respect made a similar comment about this (np nerf against ultra in zvz), why are people so naive to Blizzard's development process? Do you not know who Idra is or do you seriously believe you know more about the disconnect between high level players/play and Blizzard's balance team? | ||
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BladeRunner
United States407 Posts
On May 22 2010 00:32 floor exercise wrote: Do you not know who Idra is or do you seriously believe you know more about the disconnect between high level players/play and Blizzard's balance team? I know who IdrA is and I'm a huge fan of him and his play.. I wholeheartedly agree he's the best zerg player on the public servers. And no, I don't know think I know more about the disconnect, but I do know more about the development process as a software developer myself. But my argument is that it doesn't take much knowledge to know there's an entirely different game that's being played internally. It's more frustrating when a player I really like, like IdrA shows this naiveness thinking blizzard are all reading forums, and watching beta play all day trying to guess what type of changes they should make without tweaking things internally first. | ||
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BladeRunner
United States407 Posts
As a top player in Patch 12, would you take your own comments when you were playing Patch 1 as sound balancing advice? I mean if there were 2 servers available, one Patch 12 and one Patch 1, and you played on both, would you take your Patch 1 balancing advice into consideration for Patch 12? Of course not, because Patch 12 is very different from Patch 1, so why would you playing Patch 12 put much focus on what the very best Patch 1 player would say? It'd be more productive to focus on what a skilled, but maybe not top, player would say about Patch 12. That's my point. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On May 22 2010 00:03 shin ken wrote: So why should Blizzard actually listen to 2000+ platinum players? They are such a small minority and will probably still play the game anyway. 70% of all players will play in the new big bronce leagues so Blizzard should definitly make shure that Starcraft 2 will offer fun and balanced 50 APM games - everything above is just the cherry on the cake. That doesn't mean they should actually listen to noobs. They should listen to anybody. Every single player ist biased - even random players. The game is always balanced for anything below Silver. All you have to do is build units and A move and you win. It doesn't matter what race you are or what you build. That's why you shouldn't listen to Bronze about balance! They don't build units and don't understand why they lost! | ||
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
edit: Note by "noobs" I mean average players, not the worst guy in copper. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On May 22 2010 00:47 gravity wrote: Blizzard should balance for noobs first and pros second. Not because pro balance isn't important, but because both are important and it's easier to get things right for noobs with good basics, then balance for pros by altering stuff that noobs can't or won't use anyway. Basically once the game is balanced for noobs you can balance for pros by making changes that only affect players with high APM or good timing etc. edit: Note by "noobs" I mean average players, not the worst guy in copper. Ok, that's great... but the game is already balanced for noobs. Balanced = better player wins. Noob games = whoever builds units wins. Now lets focus on pro balance. | ||
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
On May 22 2010 00:53 rackdude wrote: Ok, that's great... but the game is already balanced for noobs. Balanced = better player wins. Noob games = whoever builds units wins. Now lets focus on pro balance. Like I said, when I say noobs I mean average, not retarded. I doubt the game is necessarily balanced at the average level. Void rays at least are clearly overpowered at that level and apparently borderline overpowered for pros too. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On May 22 2010 00:47 gravity wrote: Blizzard should balance for noobs first and pros second. Not because pro balance isn't important, but because both are important and it's easier to get things right for noobs with good basics, then balance for pros by altering stuff that noobs can't or won't use anyway. Basically once the game is balanced for noobs you can balance for pros by making changes that only affect players with high APM or good timing etc. It isn't even possible to "balance" a game on lower levels. There is no way to reach any solid conclusions. Random bursts of decent play decide games on that level, completely ignoring any imbalances. And even if a game were balanced at low levels, there is no way to fix top level balance without touching low level play. | ||
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
On May 22 2010 00:56 spinesheath wrote: It isn't even possible to "balance" a game on lower levels. There is no way to reach any solid conclusions. Random bursts of decent play decide games on that level, completely ignoring any imbalances. The same argument applies to any level of play since no-one is perfect - at any level you have to look at stats, not individual games. And even if a game were balanced at low levels, there is no way to fix top level balance without touching low level play. There are ways to fix high levels with minimal impact on low levels. For example, if Z was too weak at pro level but fine for average players, one change might be to make muta micro more powerful/possible. This would buff pro Z's but average players wouldn't have good enough micro/APM to really take advantage of it. | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
On May 22 2010 00:59 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I feel like Blizzard should list poll options on their potential changes to certain units and ask the high level players what they believe is a good change to the game rather than just guessing what change would be good and implementing it in patch #__. Obviously, the Ultralisk is a very underused unit (if at all), and just trying to implement small changes by randomly buffing random stats isn't really solving the problem. One danger with this could be bias towards whatever is currently the most popular race at high level. Also, not all high level player's opinions are equally useful - some are more thoughtful/creative and hence more likely to spot issues, others just do the latest strats with good mechanics and timing. | ||
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