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On May 21 2010 21:06 nurle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 18:50 Necrosjef wrote:I'm a 1600 Plat Player Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not in your post. I'm going to bite anyway. Terran are horrendously overpowered and need a major nerf instead of 'even more buffs'. They win plenty of tournaments, infact I can only think of 1 tournament Terran hasn't won since patch 12 was released. Blizzard are not listening to the top players regarding balance and they seem to be listening to the majority of players(noobs) who are screaming. The voidray change is a perfect example of this. Voidray is/was a perfectly resonable unit. The counter for terran was relatively simple and easy to pull off. Noobs whined, not its nerfed. The real issues that Blizzard has to address in this game are. 1. Terran mech is too strong against Zerg 2. Terran m&m&m+g is too strong against protoss There are other issues but those two are like the elephants in the room at the moment and until they are addressed then I don't see alot of competitions in SC2 that involve Protoss and Zerg players having a chance to win them. Edit: On May 21 2010 18:43 okrane wrote:
This is a call to all pro players out there. It is you who should be giving out the most feedback, its your voice that needs to be heard. I am talking about the 2000+ platinum players who have a good macro/micro and understanding of the game. Your opinions about what should and should not be changed should be heard on these forums, not the ideas of all the scrubs who have no clue.
Can't really agree more with this statement. If we really want changes we need people like TLO, Dimaga, Nazgul, Idra etc. to say what needs to be done. At the moment noobs are picking and choosing what changes suit them because no one who is really good is giving any feedback or making any posts at all. MorroW is the only one I know of who has came out and said "Terran needs a Nerf, thor is too strong" all of the other pros have stayed quiet while SC2 gets raped. Couldnt agree more with you! Terran needs a big nerf ASAP, or the whole world will change to T....
I've already changed  so easy to win now, just not rewarding. Shame it has to be this way
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 21 2010 20:03 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:59 FrozenArbiter wrote:On May 21 2010 19:08 Piy wrote:
Why they actually gave terran a buff and didn't give zerg a counter to mech perplexes me.... People need to realize that patches take a LONG time to be put together, tested, approved, localized etc. 2 weeks ago everyone thought void rays were fucking bullshit and terran couldn't win... so Blizzard nerfs them. Of course it turns out they weren't quite as unbeatable as previously thought, but at the time the patch was put together, they couldn't know that. which is the reason why i support top-down balancing rather than balancing based on the cries of 10 million silver players who didn't bother to put in the effort (watch replays or experiment) to learn how to beat it... sorry silver-terrans but if u want to build marauder every game u are going to lose to things that beat it...
Well, most top players I talked to thought the same, but it doesn't seem like void rays are as big of a problem now - just a week or two later and without any patch to nerf them.
My point is more that even though some changes they make are just bad, sometimes they only appear bad because they listened to complaints but it took a long time to actually implement them (because patches don't materialize out of thin air and take time to plan and implement).
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Well we pretty much suggested every idea for SC2 possible and impossible. Is it so hard to believe like 1/100th of the suggestions got implemented (I'm not even exaggerating we probably had like over 3k suggestions in this forum)? Did anyone say nerf Ultra's hp?
I'm sure Blizzard has looked at TL.net forums, but blizzard suggestion forums had most of suggestions in TL.net anyway.
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On May 21 2010 20:35 deadalnix wrote:
If they read this forum, maybe they should read some thread about the micro . . .
Well they did but they lack a bit in reading comprehension and we ended up with the current phoenix.
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To The OP: I'm sure its not "OMFG!!! Blizzard is ONLY getting their feedback Team Liquid and our posts *GEEK SMIRK* so all of you people posting about legitimate problems stop please, and DONT help the beta out" Quite as much as your trying to sound it out to be
as your trying to imply that only low-level players have been having these problems, meanwhile if you've looked at Zerg Vs Terran when Terran goes FE into mech while maintaining drops + harass on the Z early game, it was almost impossible to defeat the terran at the point after they got 4-5 tanks up to defend, with a thor, and some hellion, and mined out some gas for enough for ~3-4 thors, ~10 vikings, ~20 tanks, ~20 hellions, as you had to be of a much higher skill level and inquire alot of drops as the Zerg player, which barely ever worked in the end actually
Yet, the balences came for MAINLY the reasons that: Blizzard analyzes these forums MAYBE for a couple suggestions (as well as OTHER forums)
BUT: Blizzard also analyzes the play of high-level players as well. The balences come due to the fact that: A) Zerg needed a good way to deal with mech, and now with production harass + antiarmored unit, they can. B) Zerg's spells were not used quite much at all, and now they will be used more (Although the +25% thing reminds me of a WC3 spell pretty much, using % based, etc) C) Terran could not get their upgrades out quick enough to defend agasint a protoss push (should be easier now) and D) Ultralisks had little to no use before agasint Protoss due to forcefields, and agasint Terran due to marauders slowing them down on their way there (even though they only have 450 HP and were squishy before, now against a Mech build, getting ~7-8 would be an amazing idea, to tank most of the seige's AOE, as well as to get some devastating hits of their own in)
By the way, your only 1300 plat, so dont think of yourself as a "top player" either.. T.T I'm sorry, its first thing in the morning, and this post really angered me with the completely biased opinion you had D:
And how is Zerg headed in a bad direction? The ONLY real harass they had from standard openings was mid-game, to get mutas (in which, anywhere from 1 thor early, to 3 thors a bit later can kill FLOCKS of mutas tryign to harass, with some streamlined turrets) As for now, they actually have other means of Harassment...
How is Zerg headed in a bad direction, when before 1 spell was NEVER used by the infestor, as it simply could not get close enough to the enemy mineral line to do any damage?
I think that Zerg will be MUCH more diverse with this patch.
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I think people need to remember it's still in beta so why not make these seemingly 'drastic' changes before release? It's a good testing ground for finding out what works and what doesnt. Hopefully after release the patching process will get streamlined and allow for some metagame to develop before overhauling units and abilities.
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I am only Gold 1v1 player and I think Idra is right.
It is not about elitism. It is about balance, and to make it, you need to use information from those ou know the game. Top players are those people.
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On May 21 2010 21:42 Orzabal wrote:
I am only Gold 1v1 player and I think Idra is right.
It is not about elitism. It is about balance, and to make it, you need to use information from those ou know the game. Top players are those people.
Yes. Balance should be a concern for top level play. If would be nice if some topics/blogs about the game balance, would be made more visible inside this comunity.
I am talking about rational posts, from top players, with replays, argumentation and everything, proving that something is good/bad. There should be more highlights from people who actually know this game
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On May 21 2010 19:14 Paramore wrote:
as a 2150 plat player i suprisingly agree with this post.. alot of the fixes were derived from lower-tier player whining and that is not the way to address problems... problems should only be addressed if they existed in higher tier play..
i also agree that this isnt wc3... as a 6+ year wc3 veteran i was disappointed to see faerie fire (corruptor's new spell) and bloodlust (frenzy) implemented... these were clearly wc3 style spells and should remain in that relm.. the only single-target spells that really existed in sc1 were lockdown and yamato, which were understandable.. however... wtf is frenzy? can u really imagine that a zerg unit would cast a spell on another zerg unit to make it blood-lusted in real starcraft lore? that's ridiculous... also. infested terrans shouldn't rise from the ground (skeletons in wc3) or drop from the sky (skeletons from wc3).. the only way infested terrans should exist is if they came out of an infested cc or barracks... maybe implement infested zealots .. that'd make it cool too... or the ability to infest actual units instead of throwing these ridiculous egg things..
wc3 mechanics were a nice bring-over (hotkeys mbs automine etc) but wc3 spells are a no-no in the sc2 universe... i hope someone from blizz comes across my post.. b/c this is important... serously.. blood-lusted ultralisks is the last thing we need...
Agreed. This is a big problem. Spells in wc3 have no place in sc2. I really hope Blizzard will not continue on this path.
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Wait, void rays got nerfed? I don't believe anyone here on the top level has been screaming for viod ray nerfs, they're actually pretty decent right now.
On the other note, to make a game competitive and exciting to watch, it needs to be hard. Can't just nerf everything that requires too much apm so silver players don't have to learn the proper way, difficult way, to deal with something.
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feels good when i said to myself void ray had quite too strong harass capability, ultra got owned by ff thats why nobody use them, infestor to get a new spell and infested terran to move to the overseer. maybe im just lucky but it really does feel like blizzard reads our posts more than we know :p
i might just start trying my good ol' fe in tvp just because of the huge buffs to it this patch
edit: ill most definitely start doing that since it got buffed more than any other bo in this patch xD
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I'm usually quite harsh towards Blizzard when it comes to SC2 but it really is a near impossible task to make a fun and balanced game.
You only have to look at BW to see that it takes a lot of time for players to figure out just a small aspect of the game, this stuff takes years not one week. If Blizzard had continually balance patched BW instead of stopping, players/map-makers would never have had the chance to figure out how to get around "imbalances".
It's a good thing Blizzard doesn't listen to the crowd's every whim, because the crowd knows a lot less than they think they do.
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On May 21 2010 18:50 Necrosjef wrote:I'm a 1600 Plat Player Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not in your post. I'm going to bite anyway. Terran are horrendously overpowered and need a major nerf instead of 'even more buffs'. They win plenty of tournaments, infact I can only think of 1 tournament Terran hasn't won since patch 12 was released. Blizzard are not listening to the top players regarding balance and they seem to be listening to the majority of players(noobs) who are screaming. The voidray change is a perfect example of this. Voidray is/was a perfectly resonable unit. The counter for terran was relatively simple and easy to pull off. Noobs whined, not its nerfed. The real issues that Blizzard has to address in this game are. 1. Terran mech is too strong against Zerg 2. Terran m&m&m+g is too strong against protoss There are other issues but those two are like the elephants in the room at the moment and until they are addressed then I don't see alot of competitions in SC2 that involve Protoss and Zerg players having a chance to win them. Edit: Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 18:43 okrane wrote:
This is a call to all pro players out there. It is you who should be giving out the most feedback, its your voice that needs to be heard. I am talking about the 2000+ platinum players who have a good macro/micro and understanding of the game. Your opinions about what should and should not be changed should be heard on these forums, not the ideas of all the scrubs who have no clue.
Can't really agree more with this statement. If we really want changes we need people like TLO, Dimaga, Nazgul, Idra etc. to say what needs to be done. At the moment noobs are picking and choosing what changes suit them because no one who is really good is giving any feedback or making any posts at all. MorroW is the only one I know of who has came out and said "Terran needs a Nerf, thor is too strong" all of the other pros have stayed quiet while SC2 gets raped.
Im not speaking as though im great but you say that m&m&m is too strong against protoss and i do agree that in most cases it is. but i also feel that sentries and high templar are a good counter.
thors are pretty OP though, they should probably require more gas to make
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On May 21 2010 22:14 Nytefish wrote:
I'm usually quite harsh towards Blizzard when it comes to SC2 but it really is a near impossible task to make a fun and balanced game.
You only have to look at BW to see that it takes a lot of time for players to figure out just a small aspect of the game, this stuff takes years not one week. If Blizzard had continually balance patched BW instead of stopping, players/map-makers would never have had the chance to figure out how to get around "imbalances".
It's a good thing Blizzard doesn't listen to the crowd's every whim, because the crowd knows a lot less than they think they do.
And on the notion of maps... is it really a shock that mech Terran destroys Zerg on small maps with lots of choke points?
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If they read the forums, then why didnt they change the way ultra moves? It is the sole and biggest issue that ultras have. Solving it will automatically make ultras viable. Also, where are the t3 upgrades?
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United States42655 Posts
On May 21 2010 19:23 IdrA wrote:
if players are unable or unwilling to learn how to deal with things like that they arent gonna end up being competitive players at all. if you have to give them a crutch to keep them moving theyre just gonna keep going till they hit people who are legitly better and then give up anyway.
1v1's are not meant for people who are competitive but lack skill or work ethic. you're either playing for the fun of it and stick to ums/money maps/dont care if you win, or you're playing to win in which case its your responsibility to learn how to win, given an equal footing. an absolute equal footing, not an equal footing for people with 50 apm and below.
For once I couldn't agree with Idra more. Bad players may be the majority of the people who end up buying sc2 but unless the drive for changes comes from the best the game won't be any good. You can't build a game on the principle that a player should be fine doing whatever the fuck he wants. If you have no idea what you're doing or like making up your own weird builds then that'd be awesome for you but there wouldn't be any strategy involved.
The only way strategic decisions can have any meaning is if there are wrong decisions. The existence of wrong decisions will always cause stupid players to make wrong decisions because they're stupid. You can pity them for their strategic ignorance but you shouldn't try to change the game to make people less stupid.
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On May 21 2010 21:37 BigDates wrote:
D) Ultralisks had little to no use before agasint Protoss due to forcefields, and agasint Terran due to marauders slowing them down on their way there (even though they only have 450 HP and were squishy before, now against a Mech build, getting ~7-8 would be an amazing idea, to tank most of the seige's AOE, as well as to get some devastating hits of their own in).
Ultras werent slowed by marauders. Ultras were getting interrupted by any zergling/baneling and couldnt get to the target and lacked the speed, while dying to stimmed marauders anyways.
I think people will experiment a bit and then find out that ultras are still crap and have to be dropped in enemies base. It will be just like before, get hydra and now some overseers...
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Hmmm elitism at its finest.
While I'd love to think that pros know everything about game balance, that simply is not the case. They only experience a small sliver of the gamespace too. Obviously they know more than noobs about the game, but the whole direction of this thread is a bit irksome.
Yes, they might read this forum. All the changes could be interpreted from the various BNet forums.
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I fully agree with OP. As with WoW, the casual players (ahem noobs mostly) were all crying about stupid stuff that could've been solved by Blizzard with the phrase "Fuck off and learn to play, we'll the make the game, okay?"
Same thing happened to SC2, we suddenly see a MASSIVE influx of new players (ahem again noobs mostly) who don't like stuff that can be easily fixed by playing a bit more and getting better(Better understanding of strategy, better macro, whatever). Instead, they stop playing and trying to win and go to online forums to cry about it there.
And that ladies and gentlemen, is fucking disgusting.
I remember seeing a thread about someone who wanted to have freshly new-built units automatically assigned to a controlgroup...
I also remember everyone and their mom making OP's about how THEY would improve the game by adding stupid units and spells. Some of those post were okay sure, but most of them consisted out of childish ignorant ideas and plans. Seriously how many threads have we seen that are just like this?
They also always start with "Ok, I'm just a copper/silver player but wouldn't it be cool to BLABLABLABLA". I mean seriously???
God, this pisses me off :p
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Ultra already had the biggest DPS of the game.
If they are not used a lot, this isn't a DPS problem. Buff they're DPS will not fix anything. If this DPS become too huge, it can break the game.
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EPT
