On May 23 2010 01:00 Dekoth wrote: The Void Ray change was stupid..Period. The VR was perfectly fine in PVP and PVZ. You don't retune a unit that is fine in 2 of 3 matchups, you Tune the 1 match up that it is a problem in. That is piss poor balancing right there. (additional note, the VR seems to not be holding its charge. I was tired last night and need to test it today when I can, but I could of sworn it wasn't holding its charge 3 seconds. I used a spot to charge it that I always do on steppes of war and it decharged when I attacked. I may have taken longer then I realized, will review the replay later.)
Stupid? How? Should a ball of Void Rays, which only need to be a-moved to be effective at most skill levels, require some skilled viking micro to defeat? They weren't unbalanced before, but they were too damned easy to use, with no unit that could counter them well, unless the player had some decent micromanagement.
Blizzard is trying to sell this game to millions of people. Not just the high skilled gamers. If the game becomes a giant PvP fest at lower levels, with everyone rushing to Void Rays, simply because they are so easy to use, would that be beneficial to Blizzard? No, it wouldn't. Blizzard needs to balance each race as best as they can at high level game play, to ensure the game will take hold in WCG (and other major tournaments), but they also need to balance the game play as best as they can at every skill level, to sell the game and recoup the costs creating the games. Void Rays were helping to kill that balance at lower levels.....
The range does not have as big of an effect in PvP or PvZ as you seem to think it does.
In PvP, Void Rays can be used against Void Rays. Sentries are pretty crappy anti-air, but they can get the job done, regardless of the range of the Void Rays. I don't think Phoenixes would be a smart choice. Stalkers can still blink forward to kill them, roughly as easily as they could before. Basically, PvP hasn't changed much.
In PvZ, Hydras and Mutas can still be used to deal with Void Rays. Granted, it's become a little easier when the Void Rays have a shorter range, but their main advantage was sheer numbers, and that advantage still exists, so it makes much less difference here than it does in PvT.
In PvT, however, it makes Turrets and Marines more effective at dealing with Void Rays, as well as making Viking micro a little bit easier. The only match up where Void Rays were a problem was PvT, meaning that this is probably the best change they could have done to help balance them in that match up.
Think about it this way - if the Lurker in BW was reduced to doing 19 (+1 each upgrade) damage, which match up would be most effected? ZvZ never gets Lurkers, so there is no effect. Lurkers in ZvP are there for massive splash damage to Zealots, as well as containment. They do not come close to killing Zealots quickly, so there is very little difference in the effectiveness of the unit in this situation. in ZvT, however, Marines can now take 3 shots, with even or better armor upgrades, whereas it used to be 2 shots. This creates a huge change in game play. If ZvT was imbalanced in BW, this could be a potential solution to fix it, because the effect of the change makes a lot less difference in the other match ups.
Maybe this isn't the right change for Void Rays, but at least Blizzard is trying something. At least be open to trying it out, so Blizzard gets some information, and can base further changes on it. That is the point of the Beta.
Also, Blizzard seems to be trying to have each race build armies that contain several different types of units. If you can simply make a big ball of one type of unit, and roll your enemy, it doesn't match up to their goal (as I perceive it). By making it become a unit which requires support (as all other units in the game require), it should help make the game play more fun, for everyone.
On May 23 2010 01:00 Dekoth wrote: The Void Ray change was stupid..Period. The VR was perfectly fine in PVP and PVZ. You don't retune a unit that is fine in 2 of 3 matchups, you Tune the 1 match up that it is a problem in. That is piss poor balancing right there. (additional note, the VR seems to not be holding its charge. I was tired last night and need to test it today when I can, but I could of sworn it wasn't holding its charge 3 seconds. I used a spot to charge it that I always do on steppes of war and it decharged when I attacked. I may have taken longer then I realized, will review the replay later.)
Stupid? How? Should a ball of Void Rays, which only need to be a-moved to be effective at most skill levels, require some skilled viking micro to defeat? They weren't unbalanced before, but they were too damned easy to use, with no unit that could counter them well, unless the player had some decent micromanagement.
Blizzard is trying to sell this game to millions of people. Not just the high skilled gamers. If the game becomes a giant PvP fest at lower levels, with everyone rushing to Void Rays, simply because they are so easy to use, would that be beneficial to Blizzard? No, it wouldn't. Blizzard needs to balance each race as best as they can at high level game play, to ensure the game will take hold in WCG (and other major tournaments), but they also need to balance the game play as best as they can at every skill level, to sell the game and recoup the costs creating the games. Void Rays were helping to kill that balance at lower levels.....
The range does not have as big of an effect in PvP or PvZ as you seem to think it does.
In PvP, Void Rays can be used against Void Rays. Sentries are pretty crappy anti-air, but they can get the job done, regardless of the range of the Void Rays. I don't think Phoenixes would be a smart choice. Stalkers can still blink forward to kill them, roughly as easily as they could before. Basically, PvP hasn't changed much.
In PvZ, Hydras and Mutas can still be used to deal with Void Rays. Granted, it's become a little easier when the Void Rays have a shorter range, but their main advantage was sheer numbers, and that advantage still exists, so it makes much less difference here than it does in PvT.
In PvT, however, it makes Turrets and Marines more effective at dealing with Void Rays, as well as making Viking micro a little bit easier. The only match up where Void Rays were a problem was PvT, meaning that this is probably the best change they could have done to help balance them in that match up.
Think about it this way - if the Lurker in BW was reduced to doing 19 (+1 each upgrade) damage, which match up would be most effected? ZvZ never gets Lurkers, so there is no effect. Lurkers in ZvP are there for massive splash damage to Zealots, as well as containment. They do not come close to killing Zealots quickly, so there is very little difference in the effectiveness of the unit in this situation. in ZvT, however, Marines can now take 3 shots, with even or better armor upgrades, whereas it used to be 2 shots. This creates a huge change in game play. If ZvT was imbalanced in BW, this could be a potential solution to fix it, because the effect of the change makes a lot less difference in the other match ups.
Maybe this isn't the right change for Void Rays, but at least Blizzard is trying something. At least be open to trying it out, so Blizzard gets some information, and can base further changes on it. That is the point of the Beta.
Also, Blizzard seems to be trying to have each race build armies that contain several different types of units. If you can simply make a big ball of one type of unit, and roll your enemy, it doesn't match up to their goal (as I perceive it). By making it become a unit which requires support (as all other units in the game require), it should help make the game play more fun, for everyone.
The problem wasn't a ball of Void ray, it was the early harass of 2-3 voids that was the problem. The ball effect is a non issue because all races have something that expensive that when massed is extremely destructive. It simply isn't cost effective to attempt to mass those units most of the time.
You don't seem to understand gameplay balance very well. I have spent the better part of 15 years dealing with gameplay balance and testing across numerous genre not just RTS. You never balance a game around low skill play. You always balance a game around the max potential (high skill level play for ease of reference). This is because if you don't balance around the max potential of a unit/race/class, then you end up with things being severely imbalanced at the top. If a units max potential is balanced, then it is going to be balanced at all levels of play. Just because players do not use the correct strategies at a lower level, does not mean balance needs to be altered. Put in laymans terms, You can't balance stupidity.
As for being open to it, Please note I didn't utter a comment about it until I went and actually played. However I knew what it was going to be simply off years of experience. You say it hasn't affected PVP/PVZ, I ask have you actually played those matchups? I doubt it because you wouldn't say that if so. That extra time for the VR to get in range of those MU's results in it dieing that much faster. As a result it really never has a chance to become effective. Stalkers in PVP were very effective now they simply destroy Voids wholesale. That isn't even with blink in the picture. In PvZ a Void could take a queen 1v1 and be fairly well off after. Now it is just about destroyed for something that costs less then half and if they have anything else in the mix it is gone. So to fix a single matchup, they altered the balance of 2 other matchups. That is Not good decision making or balancing. As previously mentioned, had they simply gone with the stim change and seen how it played out. It might well be that that slight reduction may have been all needed for T to deal with Voids. Stim is something they are getting anyhow and since stimmed marines can Effectively kill a void, it is logical to feel that change would be sufficient.
Concerning your argument about the ball type armies. That is simply a fundamental flaw in the design of Sc2. That does not exclusively apply to Toss and Voids. Every single race has 1 unit that they can mass and steamroll an improperly defended base. The biggest offenders of this being Terran Maruaders and Zerg Roaches. Both units far cheaper then Voids, far quicker to pull out and just about as destructive when massed against poor defense. So really that is a null argument.
Don't get me wrong, this change hardly affects me. While I do play toss, I am not a fan of Stargate play. I generally prefer to do Templar or Robo play. I use voids here and there, mostly as harass but the majority of my play is pretty standard. I simply view the change as a poorly thought out design decision that is hurting the overall balance of SC2.
I don't understand the reasoning of taking out copper league only to add another league. The bottom is still the bottom and the top is still the top, renaming them doesn't do anything. I thought it was funny that I didn't even know copper league existed.
Void rays seemed pretty cheesy to me and they never grew on me as a Protoss player, but Terran getting buffer from this patch scares me. I mean I am already afraid of marauders, now I have to fear fast 55 hp marines with stim too. Granted, it isn't much of a buff so I am not screaming imbalanced, but it is something I have to now consider when executing a build.
As for the Zerg spells I feel that they won't make a difference for some reason. The units that got modified appear somewhere near mid/late game and I just think the impact they have at that point will be insignificant. I already instinctively targeted overseers, now I just have that much more reason.
On May 23 2010 01:27 guitarizt wrote: After playing some and watching streams I don't think any of the patch changes really affect zerg that much. Nothing really seems viable and frenzy is kind of ok to have but doesn't have that big of an impact on the game because infestor tech comes too late, ultras aren't viable, and the spell doesn't viably fit into any zerg tech pattern where it would even be moderately useful.
The overseer contaminate spell seemed cool but again I've been having trouble finding enough gas where I feel comfortable making several overseers. I would rather have more fighting units. The infested terran is stupid and they should take it out of the game. The overseer being able to contaminate and spawn infested terrans doesn't feel right. I didn't mind the overseer as it was before but if they had to add something hallucinate would be cool and it'd be something I'd actually use just as something to help tank during battles.
lol wtf why would htey give overseer hallucinate? lets just give stalkers concussive shells too yeh ye hYEH !!!11!
On May 23 2010 01:00 Dekoth wrote: The Void Ray change was stupid..Period. The VR was perfectly fine in PVP and PVZ. You don't retune a unit that is fine in 2 of 3 matchups, you Tune the 1 match up that it is a problem in. That is piss poor balancing right there. (additional note, the VR seems to not be holding its charge. I was tired last night and need to test it today when I can, but I could of sworn it wasn't holding its charge 3 seconds. I used a spot to charge it that I always do on steppes of war and it decharged when I attacked. I may have taken longer then I realized, will review the replay later.)
Stupid? How? Should a ball of Void Rays, which only need to be a-moved to be effective at most skill levels, require some skilled viking micro to defeat? They weren't unbalanced before, but they were too damned easy to use, with no unit that could counter them well, unless the player had some decent micromanagement.
Blizzard is trying to sell this game to millions of people. Not just the high skilled gamers. If the game becomes a giant PvP fest at lower levels, with everyone rushing to Void Rays, simply because they are so easy to use, would that be beneficial to Blizzard? No, it wouldn't. Blizzard needs to balance each race as best as they can at high level game play, to ensure the game will take hold in WCG (and other major tournaments), but they also need to balance the game play as best as they can at every skill level, to sell the game and recoup the costs creating the games. Void Rays were helping to kill that balance at lower levels.....
The range does not have as big of an effect in PvP or PvZ as you seem to think it does.
In PvP, Void Rays can be used against Void Rays. Sentries are pretty crappy anti-air, but they can get the job done, regardless of the range of the Void Rays. I don't think Phoenixes would be a smart choice. Stalkers can still blink forward to kill them, roughly as easily as they could before. Basically, PvP hasn't changed much.
In PvZ, Hydras and Mutas can still be used to deal with Void Rays. Granted, it's become a little easier when the Void Rays have a shorter range, but their main advantage was sheer numbers, and that advantage still exists, so it makes much less difference here than it does in PvT.
In PvT, however, it makes Turrets and Marines more effective at dealing with Void Rays, as well as making Viking micro a little bit easier. The only match up where Void Rays were a problem was PvT, meaning that this is probably the best change they could have done to help balance them in that match up.
Think about it this way - if the Lurker in BW was reduced to doing 19 (+1 each upgrade) damage, which match up would be most effected? ZvZ never gets Lurkers, so there is no effect. Lurkers in ZvP are there for massive splash damage to Zealots, as well as containment. They do not come close to killing Zealots quickly, so there is very little difference in the effectiveness of the unit in this situation. in ZvT, however, Marines can now take 3 shots, with even or better armor upgrades, whereas it used to be 2 shots. This creates a huge change in game play. If ZvT was imbalanced in BW, this could be a potential solution to fix it, because the effect of the change makes a lot less difference in the other match ups.
Maybe this isn't the right change for Void Rays, but at least Blizzard is trying something. At least be open to trying it out, so Blizzard gets some information, and can base further changes on it. That is the point of the Beta.
Also, Blizzard seems to be trying to have each race build armies that contain several different types of units. If you can simply make a big ball of one type of unit, and roll your enemy, it doesn't match up to their goal (as I perceive it). By making it become a unit which requires support (as all other units in the game require), it should help make the game play more fun, for everyone.
The problem wasn't a ball of Void ray, it was the early harass of 2-3 voids that was the problem. The ball effect is a non issue because all races have something that expensive that when massed is extremely destructive. It simply isn't cost effective to attempt to mass those units most of the time.
2-3 are not hard to deal with, even if you're caught off-guard..... At least if you use a strategy that gives you a chance to deal with it..... If you go for a mass marauder/tank composition, and he rolls out with 2 or 3 void rays, it's your own damned fault.....
You don't seem to understand gameplay balance very well. I have spent the better part of 15 years dealing with gameplay balance and testing across numerous genre not just RTS. You never balance a game around low skill play. You always balance a game around the max potential (high skill level play for ease of reference). This is because if you don't balance around the max potential of a unit/race/class, then you end up with things being severely imbalanced at the top. If a units max potential is balanced, then it is going to be balanced at all levels of play. Just because players do not use the correct strategies at a lower level, does not mean balance needs to be altered. Put in laymans terms, You can't balance stupidity.
While you can't balance stupidity, a game won't be as playable for the average gamer if there are some units which are just that good and easy to use. There are units in this game that are really good (battlecruisers for instance), and there are some that are really easy to use (zerglings for instance). However, when you make a unit that is both really good, and really easy to use, it causes problems for newer gamers.
I haven't had a problem dealing with Void Rays myself. But I can see where the problem lies, having lost to them a few times.
Units being balanced at the top do not make them balanced all the way through the ranks. Marines vs Zealots in BW were sided to the Marines, at high level of play, because of the ability to use buildings to dance around. That level of micro is non-existent in lower levels, making Zealots much, much better.....
As for being open to it, Please note I didn't utter a comment about it until I went and actually played. However I knew what it was going to be simply off years of experience. You say it hasn't affected PVP/PVZ, I ask have you actually played those matchups? I doubt it because you wouldn't say that if so. That extra time for the VR to get in range of those MU's results in it dieing that much faster. As a result it really never has a chance to become effective. Stalkers in PVP were very effective now they simply destroy Voids wholesale. That isn't even with blink in the picture. In PvZ a Void could take a queen 1v1 and be fairly well off after. Now it is just about destroyed for something that costs less then half and if they have anything else in the mix it is gone. So to fix a single matchup, they altered the balance of 2 other matchups. That is Not good decision making or balancing. As previously mentioned, had they simply gone with the stim change and seen how it played out. It might well be that that slight reduction may have been all needed for T to deal with Voids. Stim is something they are getting anyhow and since stimmed marines can Effectively kill a void, it is logical to feel that change would be sufficient.
You played, what, a few games with it? What about the thousands of other players on the Ladder? The average skill is pretty terrible, and the top players don't mass void-rays anyways, they use them with some kind of purpose, and they are used as part of an army, not the entire thing.
Concerning your argument about the ball type armies. That is simply a fundamental flaw in the design of Sc2. That does not exclusively apply to Toss and Voids. Every single race has 1 unit that they can mass and steamroll an improperly defended base. The biggest offenders of this being Terran Maruaders and Zerg Roaches. Both units far cheaper then Voids, far quicker to pull out and just about as destructive when massed against poor defense. So really that is a null argument.
Marauders and Roaches have some glaring weaknesses. Neither can hit air, they are both not as mobile as air units, they can be beaten easily if your opponent does certain rush strategies aiming on killing them before they hit, they are not as good in confined spaces as you might think, etc..... Void Rays are a pretty solid harassment unit due to their speed and mobility, and they are also effective when massed because of the sheer DPS they do in long engagements. Its glaring weakness is that they cost a lot to get, meaning it takes a while to get a large bunch of them. An opponent can take this into consideration and counter them easily, yes, but that is much harder to do at lower levels than simply make a bunch of them..... There are some units that can counter them well, too, like stimmed marines getting in range, or Vikings, with decent micromanagement.
Don't get me wrong, this change hardly affects me. While I do play toss, I am not a fan of Stargate play. I generally prefer to do Templar or Robo play. I use voids here and there, mostly as harass but the majority of my play is pretty standard. I simply view the change as a poorly thought out design decision that is hurting the overall balance of SC2.
Standard play is called "standard" for a reason. It doesn't leave you open to losing to 2 or 3 early void rays, among other things. A lot of good players will be able to deal with Void Rays, regardless of how good they are. And they can still be used in support/harassment roles in their current state (however, if they lost the ability to keep their charge, it would hurt them a lot more than any other change). However, the fewer units which you can "mass and win" in SC2, the better imo. You can't mass any single unit as Terran in SC2 and win, because they all are much more specialized. Void Rays were pretty beastly when massed.
Balancing a game for all skill levels is, to put it shortly, retarded. How many beginners do you think can counter a 6pool? None. Clearly Spawning Pool has to cost 300 minerals!
And I definitely don't find Void Rays _that_ easy to use. They require micro and you need to keep their charge up. Stalkers and Marines do decent damage vs Void Rays so you need good multitasking to micro the rays.
For some reason i think this patch has pretty much turned into : whoever picks terran can win no matter what they do ( i just lost to god damn battlecruisers ffs) because every other races units are nerfed to the point where you just cant deal with anything.
On May 23 2010 03:32 Cheezy wrote: Balancing a game for all skill levels is, to put it shortly, retarded. How many beginners do you think can counter a 6pool? None. Clearly Spawning Pool has to cost 300 minerals!
That was the mentality in BW that rose the cost from 150 to 200.....
And I definitely don't find Void Rays _that_ easy to use. They require micro and you need to keep their charge up. Stalkers and Marines do decent damage vs Void Rays so you need good multitasking to micro the rays.
If your opponent has the ability to peak at 100 apm, and knows some basic micro, they can deal with void rays well enough that you actually have to do something or they die easily..... What about if the skill of both players are knocked down to 40 apm, and a-move micro? Which wins?
Which skill level is closer to the average skill on the Ladder? Which skill level is closer to the average person who buys the game (the intended target market)?
If the game is going to live as long as BW did, it needs to be balanced at high level of play, as well as close enough at lower levels that it will prevent people from picking 1 race more than the other 2. BW at lower levels is still surprisingly well balanced, which is partially why it's still so popular. People may cry "P imba", but the hundreds of thousands/possibly millions of games on ICCUP showing nearly 50% win rates for each race show otherwise. SC2 deserves no less.
Not true at all it got raised in BW because some pro created an early pool strat that was nearly unbeatable Im sure someone here could tell you exacty who it was. I forget
On May 23 2010 03:32 Cheezy wrote: Balancing a game for all skill levels is, to put it shortly, retarded. How many beginners do you think can counter a 6pool? None. Clearly Spawning Pool has to cost 300 minerals!
That was the mentality in BW that rose the cost from 150 to 200.....
If the game is going to live as long as BW did, it needs to be balanced at high level of play, as well as close enough at lower levels that it will prevent people from picking 1 race more than the other 2. BW at lower levels is still surprisingly well balanced, which is partially why it's still so popular. People may cry "P imba", but the hundreds of thousands/possibly millions of games on ICCUP showing nearly 50% win rates for each race show otherwise. SC2 deserves no less.
BW wasnt balanced well at all for low level play, what are you talking about? Have you ever tried to play d, d- games on iccup? Protoss is by far the most popular race, simply because so many units and strategies are easy to pull off with little micro, but are hard to stop. It takes a hell of a lot more skill to fend off dts than to make them and a move them.
On May 23 2010 04:15 jamesr12 wrote: Not true at all it got raised in BW because some pro created an early pool strat that was nearly unbeatable Im sure someone here could tell you exacty who it was. I forget
On May 23 2010 03:32 Cheezy wrote: Balancing a game for all skill levels is, to put it shortly, retarded. How many beginners do you think can counter a 6pool? None. Clearly Spawning Pool has to cost 300 minerals!
That was the mentality in BW that rose the cost from 150 to 200.....
If the game is going to live as long as BW did, it needs to be balanced at high level of play, as well as close enough at lower levels that it will prevent people from picking 1 race more than the other 2. BW at lower levels is still surprisingly well balanced, which is partially why it's still so popular. People may cry "P imba", but the hundreds of thousands/possibly millions of games on ICCUP showing nearly 50% win rates for each race show otherwise. SC2 deserves no less.
BW wasnt balanced well at all for low level play, what are you talking about? Have you ever tried to play d, d- games on iccup? Protoss is by far the most popular race, simply because so many units and strategies are easy to pull off with little micro, but are hard to stop. It takes a hell of a lot more skill to fend off dts than to make them and a move them.
Most games of BW on ICCUP are at the D+ or lower level..... And, if we look on Python, a pretty standard, overused, noob-friendly map, we see this. 51%, 52, and 48%. That's pretty damned close to 50% for each race. BW is very, very well balanced at the lower levels.....
P may be more popular, but that does not make it the better choice at lower levels.....
yeah i think he summed up the point of view of every good player : fenzy is useless, ultralisk are useless, infested terran is useless, overseer corruption ability is cool
EPT
