EPTthanks to the new friend system the tournaments went directly to hell...
Patch 13 Discussion - Page 90
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DrakanSilva
Chile932 Posts
thanks to the new friend system the tournaments went directly to hell... | ||
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Cheezy
Sweden112 Posts
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On May 23 2010 05:17 Drakan wrote: balance changes are the few problems of this patch. thanks to the new friend system the tournaments went directly to hell... Had some lag this morning but the world cup had their matches though tester and haypro didn't get a clean start for the first match. Not to mention waiting for 45 minutes for the asia server to come up and stabilize. | ||
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Dekoth
United States527 Posts
On May 23 2010 03:23 Impervious wrote: 2-3 are not hard to deal with, even if you're caught off-guard..... At least if you use a strategy that gives you a chance to deal with it..... If you go for a mass marauder/tank composition, and he rolls out with 2 or 3 void rays, it's your own damned fault..... While you can't balance stupidity, a game won't be as playable for the average gamer if there are some units which are just that good and easy to use. There are units in this game that are really good (battlecruisers for instance), and there are some that are really easy to use (zerglings for instance). However, when you make a unit that is both really good, and really easy to use, it causes problems for newer gamers. I haven't had a problem dealing with Void Rays myself. But I can see where the problem lies, having lost to them a few times. Units being balanced at the top do not make them balanced all the way through the ranks. Marines vs Zealots in BW were sided to the Marines, at high level of play, because of the ability to use buildings to dance around. That level of micro is non-existent in lower levels, making Zealots much, much better..... You played, what, a few games with it? What about the thousands of other players on the Ladder? The average skill is pretty terrible, and the top players don't mass void-rays anyways, they use them with some kind of purpose, and they are used as part of an army, not the entire thing. Marauders and Roaches have some glaring weaknesses. Neither can hit air, they are both not as mobile as air units, they can be beaten easily if your opponent does certain rush strategies aiming on killing them before they hit, they are not as good in confined spaces as you might think, etc..... Void Rays are a pretty solid harassment unit due to their speed and mobility, and they are also effective when massed because of the sheer DPS they do in long engagements. Its glaring weakness is that they cost a lot to get, meaning it takes a while to get a large bunch of them. An opponent can take this into consideration and counter them easily, yes, but that is much harder to do at lower levels than simply make a bunch of them..... There are some units that can counter them well, too, like stimmed marines getting in range, or Vikings, with decent micromanagement. Standard play is called "standard" for a reason. It doesn't leave you open to losing to 2 or 3 early void rays, among other things. A lot of good players will be able to deal with Void Rays, regardless of how good they are. And they can still be used in support/harassment roles in their current state (however, if they lost the ability to keep their charge, it would hurt them a lot more than any other change). However, the fewer units which you can "mass and win" in SC2, the better imo. You can't mass any single unit as Terran in SC2 and win, because they all are much more specialized. Void Rays were pretty beastly when massed. Except the problem is, the balance change was made due to the 2 or 3 VR rush being used at lower levels. Massing Voids was never the problem because they are so bloody costly to do so. The problem again, and I feel like a scratched record here was that Terran did not have an easy counter to early voids. The problem was not the void, it was that T needed a little more micro then what was being seen in low levels. If you A move both units the Marines are going to win everytime if they have been built in proper numbers because the voids will never have a chance to charge up. As was mentioned by a previous poster. Blizz did not change it due to epic mass void strats, they changed it due to low skill players getting rolled by 2 or 3 voids because they weren't building anything except mass maruaders (Gee I wonder why). Now if we want to get in to a theorycraft argument of epic mass unit strats, we can discuss mass collosi, maruaders, siege tanks, ultras, mutas..or just about any other crazy all in mass for the win strat. You speak of the glaring weakness of maruaders and roaches, yet ignore the glaring weakness of Voids. Uncharged voids are big expensive targets. Likewise it takes Far far longer to tech to them and a Toss teching to Voids is EXTREMELY vulnerable to big timing pushes. Again massing Voids is just as vulnerable to exploitation as maruaders and roaches. It was a stupid change, period. I am not arguing that T didn't need a little tweaking to help counter them, I am arguing that the change chosen was poorly thought out. As for the number of games played, it doesn't take hundreds of games when I am testing that specific mechanic with a few friends to see just exactly how the change worked. I know it is difficult to believe, but some of us actually test changes instead of just playing the game and theorycrafting. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On May 23 2010 04:44 Darkn3ss wrote: Somewhere in this video..... Watch the whole thing, if you'd like... pretty interesting... Worthless piece of crap right there. | ||
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kajeus
United States679 Posts
On May 23 2010 04:44 Darkn3ss wrote: Somewhere in this video..... Watch the whole thing, if you'd like... pretty interesting... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkC8ftV02cQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=swW0JnDZdy0&feature=sub That is a terrrrrrrrible video. He put ultras up against thors and said the ultras were supposed to be tanks?? So many people are stuck in the BW mode with BW ideas. I miss players who can think. | ||
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Impervious
Canada4198 Posts
On May 23 2010 05:29 Dekoth wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2010 03:23 Impervious wrote: 2-3 are not hard to deal with, even if you're caught off-guard..... At least if you use a strategy that gives you a chance to deal with it..... If you go for a mass marauder/tank composition, and he rolls out with 2 or 3 void rays, it's your own damned fault..... While you can't balance stupidity, a game won't be as playable for the average gamer if there are some units which are just that good and easy to use. There are units in this game that are really good (battlecruisers for instance), and there are some that are really easy to use (zerglings for instance). However, when you make a unit that is both really good, and really easy to use, it causes problems for newer gamers. I haven't had a problem dealing with Void Rays myself. But I can see where the problem lies, having lost to them a few times. Units being balanced at the top do not make them balanced all the way through the ranks. Marines vs Zealots in BW were sided to the Marines, at high level of play, because of the ability to use buildings to dance around. That level of micro is non-existent in lower levels, making Zealots much, much better..... You played, what, a few games with it? What about the thousands of other players on the Ladder? The average skill is pretty terrible, and the top players don't mass void-rays anyways, they use them with some kind of purpose, and they are used as part of an army, not the entire thing. Marauders and Roaches have some glaring weaknesses. Neither can hit air, they are both not as mobile as air units, they can be beaten easily if your opponent does certain rush strategies aiming on killing them before they hit, they are not as good in confined spaces as you might think, etc..... Void Rays are a pretty solid harassment unit due to their speed and mobility, and they are also effective when massed because of the sheer DPS they do in long engagements. Its glaring weakness is that they cost a lot to get, meaning it takes a while to get a large bunch of them. An opponent can take this into consideration and counter them easily, yes, but that is much harder to do at lower levels than simply make a bunch of them..... There are some units that can counter them well, too, like stimmed marines getting in range, or Vikings, with decent micromanagement. Standard play is called "standard" for a reason. It doesn't leave you open to losing to 2 or 3 early void rays, among other things. A lot of good players will be able to deal with Void Rays, regardless of how good they are. And they can still be used in support/harassment roles in their current state (however, if they lost the ability to keep their charge, it would hurt them a lot more than any other change). However, the fewer units which you can "mass and win" in SC2, the better imo. You can't mass any single unit as Terran in SC2 and win, because they all are much more specialized. Void Rays were pretty beastly when massed. Except the problem is, the balance change was made due to the 2 or 3 VR rush being used at lower levels. Massing Voids was never the problem because they are so bloody costly to do so. The problem again, and I feel like a scratched record here was that Terran did not have an easy counter to early voids. The problem was not the void, it was that T needed a little more micro then what was being seen in low levels. If you A move both units the Marines are going to win everytime if they have been built in proper numbers because the voids will never have a chance to charge up. As was mentioned by a previous poster. Blizz did not change it due to epic mass void strats, they changed it due to low skill players getting rolled by 2 or 3 voids because they weren't building anything except mass maruaders (Gee I wonder why). Now if we want to get in to a theorycraft argument of epic mass unit strats, we can discuss mass collosi, maruaders, siege tanks, ultras, mutas..or just about any other crazy all in mass for the win strat. Yet again, the same problem exists with units like Banshees. I know I've rolled more than a few lower-level players with 2 banshees with cloak..... Banshees, once you get about 6 of them, reach their peak efficiency, anything after that is overkill for harassment. Void Rays keep on getting better..... Also, I already mentioned - if you go for a mass marauder strat, and get rolled by 2 or 3 void rays, it's your damned fault..... The same thing happens when Z goes for Mutas, and T goes for Banshees as well though..... Like you said, you can't balance stupid. However, if Blizzard had to make a change, there was obviously something wrong..... You speak of the glaring weakness of maruaders and roaches, yet ignore the glaring weakness of Voids. Uncharged voids are big expensive targets. Likewise it takes Far far longer to tech to them and a Toss teching to Voids is EXTREMELY vulnerable to big timing pushes. Again massing Voids is just as vulnerable to exploitation as maruaders and roaches. The same can be said of any teching path, why should this one be much more powerful than others? It was a stupid change, period. I am not arguing that T didn't need a little tweaking to help counter them, I am arguing that the change chosen was poorly thought out. As for the number of games played, it doesn't take hundreds of games when I am testing that specific mechanic with a few friends to see just exactly how the change worked. I know it is difficult to believe, but some of us actually test changes instead of just playing the game and theorycrafting. Any T change affects every match up, since every unit is usable in every match up..... Whereas changing the Void Rays would affect a specific unit which is causing problems..... Logically speaking, changing the Void Rays slightly, in a way that affects the match up at hand more than the other match ups, is the right decision. I don't know what the right change would be. Maybe this isn't it. Do you have a better idea? | ||
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OptimoPeach
United States137 Posts
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Trok67
France384 Posts
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kajeus
United States679 Posts
On May 23 2010 05:52 Trok67 wrote: It seems like blizzard see the new ultralisk as an anti-armored unit, the LEAST you can expect from a anti-armored units is that it can ACTUALLY kill similar armored unit, especially when this armored units is primary an anti-air unit who has ranged ground dps. Moreover 1v1 open field battle largly advantage ultralisk over ranged thor dps, but it still got owned badly that's ridiculous Huh? The dude used the cannon ability on the thor, which exists specifically to hard counter big units like the ultra. | ||
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Camph
United States5 Posts
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KiWiKaKi
Canada691 Posts
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On May 23 2010 06:03 KiWiKaKi wrote: is bnet down for you guys? i cant connect They are "looking into" the problems | ||
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kajeus
United States679 Posts
Moreover, ultras will obviously be super strong in conjunction with Fungal Growth on units like marauders and roaches. Think about it. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On May 23 2010 06:24 kajeus wrote: I think the biggest problem with people looking at ultras is that they don't realize how people get infestors ANYWAY -- they will never get infestors purely for Frenzy. Moreover, ultras will obviously be super strong in conjunction with Fungal Growth on units like marauders and roaches. Think about it. so what youre saying is you have to make a bunch of 100/150 units to make your 300/200 units good. lets not forget the 300 gas for the ultra upgrades, the 200 for the cavern, the 100 for the infestation pit, the 100 for the hive you werent going to get, and the +2/3 armor upgrade you really ought to have by then. oh wait ultralisks get owned by your own zerglings/roaches that you had to make to use up the extra minerals from 20 minutes of mining 3 bases to afford the gas to build the ultras and infestors. make the ultralisk walk over small units like zerglings and banelings; my collossi can do it why cant ultralisks? | ||
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epik640x
United States1134 Posts
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
On May 21 2010 17:56 valaki wrote: LOL @ sentries, first 25% dmg nerf to make them useless in the early game other than a few force fields, now this, to make them useless in lategame other than a few force fields -.- Yeah man, all zergs rush ultras against toss. GG force field, even MORE useless. /endsarcasm | ||
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kajeus
United States679 Posts
On May 23 2010 06:38 red_b wrote: so what youre saying is you have to make a bunch of 100/150 units to make your 300/200 units good. lets not forget the 300 gas for the ultra upgrades, the 200 for the cavern, the 100 for the infestation pit, the 100 for the hive you werent going to get, and the +2/3 armor upgrade you really ought to have by then. oh wait ultralisks get owned by your own zerglings/roaches that you had to make to use up the extra minerals from 20 minutes of mining 3 bases to afford the gas to build the ultras and infestors. make the ultralisk walk over small units like zerglings and banelings; my collossi can do it why cant ultralisks? But people build infestors ANYWAY, man. It's not like they're going out of their way. And um, this is obviously a late game strat? i.e., hive tech? | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
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Dekoth
United States527 Posts
On May 23 2010 05:50 Impervious wrote: Yet again, the same problem exists with units like Banshees. I know I've rolled more than a few lower-level players with 2 banshees with cloak..... Banshees, once you get about 6 of them, reach their peak efficiency, anything after that is overkill for harassment. Void Rays keep on getting better..... Also, I already mentioned - if you go for a mass marauder strat, and get rolled by 2 or 3 void rays, it's your damned fault..... The same thing happens when Z goes for Mutas, and T goes for Banshees as well though..... Like you said, you can't balance stupid. However, if Blizzard had to make a change, there was obviously something wrong..... Are you trying to say that Banshees cease getting better the more you mass? I don't believe you are, but that is the implication of your statement. All units in the game get better as you mass them. Reference my earlier comment of the fundamental flaw of SC2. Yes you reach a certain point where they are the most efficient at harass. However that harass is precisely what we are talking about, not the end result of massing an insane amount of units. If we want to compare apples to apples, mass banshee especially cloaked will roll an entire base just as fast if not faster. That however is not the point of this discussion. I believe we are in agreement then that improper builds, pretty much deserve to get rolled. Which is why I said you can't balance around low level play. On May 23 2010 05:50 Impervious wrote: The same can be said of any teching path, why should this one be much more powerful than others? Is it? I don't believe this is any more powerful then its equal cost of tech path anywhere else. On May 23 2010 05:50 Impervious wrote: Any T change affects every match up, since every unit is usable in every match up..... Whereas changing the Void Rays would affect a specific unit which is causing problems..... Logically speaking, changing the Void Rays slightly, in a way that affects the match up at hand more than the other match ups, is the right decision. I don't know what the right change would be. Maybe this isn't it. Do you have a better idea? Sure, the Stim upgrade as I mentioned had potential to fix the situation. There is no call to do a buff and a nerf at the same time. They felt Terran ground required a general buff in getting stim quicker, so they already planned on changing every mu there. Why not allow this change to play out instead of having a knee jerk reaction and nerfing a unit that is already proven to be perfectly fine in most matchups? The complaint T had against the void was the timing. When voids first hit, most felt that it was too difficult to have enough defense to reasonably handle. It was an admitted fact that Stimmed Marines raped voids, so logic dictates that cheaper and thus earlier stim should make that timing window reasonable. So my gripe is the fact that they went over the top with the changes and chose to affect matchups that were proven to be ok, in order to affect one matchup that they were already changing. You could say they chose to bring a sledge hammer to a situation that required a scapal. In regards to overall balance, during the Void patches toss only had an average of a 4% higher win rate over T. That is a pretty small margin, especially if you consider not every single match included voids or even close. | ||
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