EPTIt wasn't unbeatable it was just annoying and unlike other harass it would last for maybe around 5 minutes.
Patch 13 Discussion - Page 91
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MattDamon
United States59 Posts
It wasn't unbeatable it was just annoying and unlike other harass it would last for maybe around 5 minutes. | ||
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Cheezy
Sweden112 Posts
Void Rays can be compared to mutas, except in SC2, you don't even need to build turrets or get stim vs the Rays! One viking or a ghost and a few marines can easily repel early Void Rays, which might almost seem unfair. The Void Rays really did not require a nerf. It was fine as it was. People just whine cause they are poor at countering it. and the "Void Rays are too powerful in Bronze League" argument is just plain stupid. Even D players in SC1 know how to muta micro, which lets you stack 9 mutas and one-shot marines. I'm sure people thought that was very imba at first but Terran players eventually learned how to counter it. | ||
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Dekoth
United States527 Posts
On May 23 2010 07:09 MattDamon wrote: My problem with old void rays was mainly that it was just plain not fun at all to play against TvP. It also seemed like I would play a lot more protoss than any other race and half of them would go voidrays. Something like 3/10 games I played would be void rays. 1600-1750 plat range It wasn't unbeatable it was just annoying and unlike other harass it would last for maybe around 5 minutes. Do you think we find it fun getting hit with nothing but mass stimmed maruaders game after game? You are right, TvP isn't fun but most of the time the lack of fun (creativity) isn't the fault of the toss player though. With just about every bloody terran doing nothing but MMM balls, I can pretty much go Robo/collosi or I can go voids to try and early end the game. Because if I let that crap go on too long, they are just going to throw in 1 or 2 ghosts in their mmm ball, throw an emp and rape my army without the mmm ball hardly even slowing down. It is the same as if I tried to go mass gateway units against a siege tank turtle. My gateway units are just going to get plowed and no amount of micro is going to change that. Voids are just Toss's version of a Siege tank, we just chose to use it offensively. | ||
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Raydog
United States632 Posts
Forcefields getting smashed by ultralisks gave me no chance | ||
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taruts
New Zealand41 Posts
On May 23 2010 02:27 Dekoth wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2010 01:35 Impervious wrote: Stupid? How? Should a ball of Void Rays, which only need to be a-moved to be effective at most skill levels, require some skilled viking micro to defeat? They weren't unbalanced before, but they were too damned easy to use, with no unit that could counter them well, unless the player had some decent micromanagement. Blizzard is trying to sell this game to millions of people. Not just the high skilled gamers. If the game becomes a giant PvP fest at lower levels, with everyone rushing to Void Rays, simply because they are so easy to use, would that be beneficial to Blizzard? No, it wouldn't. Blizzard needs to balance each race as best as they can at high level game play, to ensure the game will take hold in WCG (and other major tournaments), but they also need to balance the game play as best as they can at every skill level, to sell the game and recoup the costs creating the games. Void Rays were helping to kill that balance at lower levels..... The range does not have as big of an effect in PvP or PvZ as you seem to think it does. In PvP, Void Rays can be used against Void Rays. Sentries are pretty crappy anti-air, but they can get the job done, regardless of the range of the Void Rays. I don't think Phoenixes would be a smart choice. Stalkers can still blink forward to kill them, roughly as easily as they could before. Basically, PvP hasn't changed much. In PvZ, Hydras and Mutas can still be used to deal with Void Rays. Granted, it's become a little easier when the Void Rays have a shorter range, but their main advantage was sheer numbers, and that advantage still exists, so it makes much less difference here than it does in PvT. In PvT, however, it makes Turrets and Marines more effective at dealing with Void Rays, as well as making Viking micro a little bit easier. The only match up where Void Rays were a problem was PvT, meaning that this is probably the best change they could have done to help balance them in that match up. Think about it this way - if the Lurker in BW was reduced to doing 19 (+1 each upgrade) damage, which match up would be most effected? ZvZ never gets Lurkers, so there is no effect. Lurkers in ZvP are there for massive splash damage to Zealots, as well as containment. They do not come close to killing Zealots quickly, so there is very little difference in the effectiveness of the unit in this situation. in ZvT, however, Marines can now take 3 shots, with even or better armor upgrades, whereas it used to be 2 shots. This creates a huge change in game play. If ZvT was imbalanced in BW, this could be a potential solution to fix it, because the effect of the change makes a lot less difference in the other match ups. Maybe this isn't the right change for Void Rays, but at least Blizzard is trying something. At least be open to trying it out, so Blizzard gets some information, and can base further changes on it. That is the point of the Beta. Also, Blizzard seems to be trying to have each race build armies that contain several different types of units. If you can simply make a big ball of one type of unit, and roll your enemy, it doesn't match up to their goal (as I perceive it). By making it become a unit which requires support (as all other units in the game require), it should help make the game play more fun, for everyone. The problem wasn't a ball of Void ray, it was the early harass of 2-3 voids that was the problem. The ball effect is a non issue because all races have something that expensive that when massed is extremely destructive. It simply isn't cost effective to attempt to mass those units most of the time. You don't seem to understand gameplay balance very well. I have spent the better part of 15 years dealing with gameplay balance and testing across numerous genre not just RTS. You never balance a game around low skill play. You always balance a game around the max potential (high skill level play for ease of reference). This is because if you don't balance around the max potential of a unit/race/class, then you end up with things being severely imbalanced at the top. If a units max potential is balanced, then it is going to be balanced at all levels of play. Just because players do not use the correct strategies at a lower level, does not mean balance needs to be altered. Put in laymans terms, You can't balance stupidity. As for being open to it, Please note I didn't utter a comment about it until I went and actually played. However I knew what it was going to be simply off years of experience. You say it hasn't affected PVP/PVZ, I ask have you actually played those matchups? I doubt it because you wouldn't say that if so. That extra time for the VR to get in range of those MU's results in it dieing that much faster. As a result it really never has a chance to become effective. Stalkers in PVP were very effective now they simply destroy Voids wholesale. That isn't even with blink in the picture. In PvZ a Void could take a queen 1v1 and be fairly well off after. Now it is just about destroyed for something that costs less then half and if they have anything else in the mix it is gone. So to fix a single matchup, they altered the balance of 2 other matchups. That is Not good decision making or balancing. As previously mentioned, had they simply gone with the stim change and seen how it played out. It might well be that that slight reduction may have been all needed for T to deal with Voids. Stim is something they are getting anyhow and since stimmed marines can Effectively kill a void, it is logical to feel that change would be sufficient. Concerning your argument about the ball type armies. That is simply a fundamental flaw in the design of Sc2. That does not exclusively apply to Toss and Voids. Every single race has 1 unit that they can mass and steamroll an improperly defended base. The biggest offenders of this being Terran Maruaders and Zerg Roaches. Both units far cheaper then Voids, far quicker to pull out and just about as destructive when massed against poor defense. So really that is a null argument. Don't get me wrong, this change hardly affects me. While I do play toss, I am not a fan of Stargate play. I generally prefer to do Templar or Robo play. I use voids here and there, mostly as harass but the majority of my play is pretty standard. I simply view the change as a poorly thought out design decision that is hurting the overall balance of SC2. Allowing cheaper research of stim hardly make marines more useful against Void Ray ("VR") harass. The main problem with VR harass was the range and the terran's inability to counter them effectively at all. On particular maps such as LT, a few VRs locked the terran inside the base completely. The only way terran could break out was to use a vikings and marine combo. Since this was essentially the only feasible counter against an opponent planning to get a bunch of VRs, the terran had to invest gas heavily on vikings. You needed a group of vikings before they were effective against a handful of VRs. This gas investment caused early-mid game Terran to lack any other units that were effective against any subsequent toss timing push. Reducing VR range will substantially ameliorate the excessively oppressive pressure coming from VR harass allowing the terran to possibly to do something else apart from going for a group of vikings and essentially nothing else. | ||
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Trok67
France384 Posts
On May 23 2010 08:06 Raydog wrote: My only games I've lost this patch so far was vs. Ultralisks. PvZ, he would turtle up on 2 bases, get ling muta, contain me on my 2 bases while they expanded, tech to ultralisks, dominate me. Forcefields getting smashed by ultralisks gave me no chance is it a joke ? | ||
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MattDamon
United States59 Posts
On May 23 2010 07:58 Dekoth wrote: Do you think we find it fun getting hit with nothing but mass stimmed maruaders game after game? You are right, TvP isn't fun but most of the time the lack of fun (creativity) isn't the fault of the toss player though. With just about every bloody terran doing nothing but MMM balls, I can pretty much go Robo/collosi or I can go voids to try and early end the game. Because if I let that crap go on too long, they are just going to throw in 1 or 2 ghosts in their mmm ball, throw an emp and rape my army without the mmm ball hardly even slowing down. It is the same as if I tried to go mass gateway units against a siege tank turtle. My gateway units are just going to get plowed and no amount of micro is going to change that. Voids are just Toss's version of a Siege tank, we just chose to use it offensively. All I can say is the two things that annoy me in this game involve Protoss hitting me with a unit, I deal damage to it then it backs off and comes back with full shield. Those two things are probe harass and voidrays. Probe harass I can deal with even though I am down an SCV chasing you around while you get scouting information. I don't mind any other strategy including cheese, and if blizzard wanted to buff a normal protoss unit a little I would be cool with that. I just have a feeling if around 30% of my games involve a specific almost cheese strategy there is something wrong with that. | ||
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Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
On May 23 2010 06:59 Dekoth wrote: Are you trying to say that Banshees cease getting better the more you mass? I don't believe you are, but that is the implication of your statement. All units in the game get better as you mass them. Reference my earlier comment of the fundamental flaw of SC2. Yes you reach a certain point where they are the most efficient at harass. However that harass is precisely what we are talking about, not the end result of massing an insane amount of units. If we want to compare apples to apples, mass banshee especially cloaked will roll an entire base just as fast if not faster. That however is not the point of this discussion. I believe we are in agreement then that improper builds, pretty much deserve to get rolled. Which is why I said you can't balance around low level play. The difference between Banshees and Void Rays is that Void Rays can handle a lot of different opposing units in mass, wheras Banshees require nearby Vikings/Thors/Marines to protect them from airborne anti-air fire. Is it? I don't believe this is any more powerful then its equal cost of tech path anywhere else. Is it viable to mass Banshees? Mass Thor? Mass Mutalisk? Mass Marauder? Mass Zealot? Mass Roach? Mass Immortal? Etc? However, Void Rays can be massed effectively..... It's too bloody easy for a shitty player to do it..... Sure, the Stim upgrade as I mentioned had potential to fix the situation. There is no call to do a buff and a nerf at the same time. They felt Terran ground required a general buff in getting stim quicker, so they already planned on changing every mu there. Why not allow this change to play out instead of having a knee jerk reaction and nerfing a unit that is already proven to be perfectly fine in most matchups? The complaint T had against the void was the timing. When voids first hit, most felt that it was too difficult to have enough defense to reasonably handle. It was an admitted fact that Stimmed Marines raped voids, so logic dictates that cheaper and thus earlier stim should make that timing window reasonable. So my gripe is the fact that they went over the top with the changes and chose to affect matchups that were proven to be ok, in order to affect one matchup that they were already changing. You could say they chose to bring a sledge hammer to a situation that required a scapal. In regards to overall balance, during the Void patches toss only had an average of a 4% higher win rate over T. That is a pretty small margin, especially if you consider not every single match included voids or even close. The stim upgrade itself does little to help, unless the Terran player can get the upgrade quick enough to benefit from it..... Making it slightly cheaper does not mean I will get it earlier..... I mean, if I scan the P base, and notice he is short a pylon and a production facility, I can suspect him proxying a Stargate, so I grab stim, only to be rolled over by a DT running into my base (ok, gross exaggeration, but w.e.). Or do I assume he'll go DT, I save some scans, and get some Marauders and Banshees, only to be rolled by the early Void Rays? Or did he proxy his robo bay, and make some Immortals? Etc..... Whether Stim is 150/150, 200/200, 50/50, 100/100, etc, if I need it, I will get it. But I have to know early enough to purchase the upgrade, and have it finish by the time I need it finished. The cost is not really relevant..... It being cheaper does give more of an incentive to purchase it earlier, but it is not a necessary upgrade in all situations..... Shortening the research time further would probably be more useful, but would affect the other matchups a lot too..... By "4%" higher win-rate, do you mean "52% to 48%" or "54% to 46%"? Even then, are the stats for "win rate when void rays were produced" and "win rate when void rays were not produced" similar? I'm sure Blizzard has ways of analyzing this (it would be stupid for them to not). They may have brought in a sledge hammer when a regular hammer was required though..... | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8742/fucklol.jpg) | ||
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neptunesak
Canada113 Posts
http://localhostr.com/files/10c452/Screenshot013.Jpg | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
On May 23 2010 07:58 Dekoth wrote: Do you think we find it fun getting hit with nothing but mass stimmed maruaders game after game? You are right, TvP isn't fun but most of the time the lack of fun (creativity) isn't the fault of the toss player though. With just about every bloody terran doing nothing but MMM balls, I can pretty much go Robo/collosi or I can go voids to try and early end the game. Because if I let that crap go on too long, they are just going to throw in 1 or 2 ghosts in their mmm ball, throw an emp and rape my army without the mmm ball hardly even slowing down. QFT If you think playing a protoss that uses void rays 30% of the time is bad and boring - think about protoss players that deal with concussive shell maruader rushes almost every single game (on close spawns). Yea sometimes you can hold it off, but its incredibly micro intensive - you need to make sure at all times that your zealot(s) are the ones soaking up the damage while your one stalker tries to snipe AND more often that not you probably need to bring a couple of probes to hold this rush off. All this while the Terran player is just doing pretty much a-move and maybe occasionally doing some minor micro like pulling back the most damaged maurader to the back or something. I agree that Void Rays can be a bit too powerful when used by even low skill level players - but the exact same thing can be said about terrans who do maurader w/CS rushes. I'm not one who likes complaining about imbalances, but the strength of mauraders early game is just about the only thing that really frustrates me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that two evenly skilled typical average ladder joes (say 50~70 APM) terran player who does maurader w/CS rush vs protoss, the terran player will come out on top almost every time; especially if its a close spawn. | ||
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BHZ
Spain19 Posts
On May 23 2010 08:06 Raydog wrote: My only games I've lost this patch so far was vs. Ultralisks. PvZ, he would turtle up on 2 bases, get ling muta, contain me on my 2 bases while they expanded, tech to ultralisks, dominate me. Forcefields getting smashed by ultralisks gave me no chance You say that because you want zerg players to do this and lose? xD | ||
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Aether
Canada123 Posts
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ziteNiA
Sweden73 Posts
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mousepad
United States136 Posts
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Goobahfish
Australia71 Posts
Summary, reduce power on switch target, multiple VR's targetting a single unit reducing charge time for each void ray. That way 2 VR vs 1 BC would be roughly equivalent to 10 VR vs 5 BC. You could even make it look good graphically and explain it lore-wise so easily... | ||
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NotGood-
United States134 Posts
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BamBam
745 Posts
![[image loading]](http://bighugelabs.com/output/motivator716e984c949b439ee04e6096e2eca79fe64b7aa3.jpg) On the bright side, at least they're fixing it... should be back up sometime mondayish... Unless blizzard actually works on sundays. Which means until then, back to starcraft bw!!!  2-d Graphics are sooooo ftw. | ||
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Renaissance
Canada273 Posts
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On May 23 2010 12:21 Energizer wrote: On the bright side, at least they're fixing it... should be back up sometime mondayish... Unless blizzard actually works on sundays. Which means until then, back to starcraft bw!!! 2-d Graphics are sooooo ftw.So much for a weekend not at work. | ||
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